By a Newsnet Scotland undercover reporter

Here we are, the morning of the night before!  BBC Scotland kicked off their in-depth referendum coverage with, ‘The Big Debate - Choosing Scotland's Future’.

Waiting in the lobby I overheard and witnessed acts of deception, nepotism and strangers playing spot the opposition.

Once seated in the studio, the audience was treated to the talents of BBC Scotland’s top warm up act - Mr John Boothman, Head of News and Current Affairs at Pacific Quay.

I was expecting him to jump on a unicycle, juggle and tell us a joke at any moment – thankfully he did not.

For those listeners and viewers of the show, you missed out on the best question of the night!  What was this killer question I hear you ask?  Be patient for we will get there in a moment.

Let’s begin with the acts of deception.
Pro-independence supporters were heard on their mobile phones telling tales of their subversive actions to gain a ticket.  John le Carré could learn a trick or two from these militia agents of Scotland.

Apparently it is best to lie on the BBC participation form to win the prize of being packed like a sardine in the audience - wee Jock McTavish fae Auchenshoogle has mastered the espionage skills of Harry Palmer.  The tip I picked up, and now share with you in strict confidence, is never to put member of the SNP nor pro-independence on the form.

Now we get to the act of nepotism.
A young BBC Scotland employee was chatting with her father and her ex-lecturer before heading off with them for a grand tour of the shiny new studio.

I tried a tailgate manoeuvre, but that damn bottle of Highland Spring detained me at the airport style security checkpoint just long enough for the tour guide and her party to have disappeared into the distance.   Yes Pacific Quay really is that big! Nae wonder they cannae afford to keep on the good journalists from BBC Radio Scotland after the money they’ve flung at that building.

Perhaps the statisticians, or bookie enthusiasts, amongst you can work out the odds of a father of a BBC Scotland employee being picked out as an audience member in the utopian world ruled by the BBC charter.

Before the comments flood in for the sacking of this young woman, I will proceed to defend her actions.  She was making her father and ex-lecturer proud of her achievement and standing within BBC Scotland.

Her young years, naivety and inexperience led to her loose talk in a public foyer full of trained agents of the state and members of the insurgency.  Reprimanding this young woman at the start of her hard won career serves no one.

Technical issues kept us out of the studio for quite some time; the herded audience chatted away freely in the corridor leading to the studio.

Amnesia
A young Labour party member was overheard chatting to others behind him in the queue, a conversation that turned to the recent Scottish Labour Leader inauguration.

Someone opined that Scottish Labour members had actually chosen the better leader, not the 'disastrous' one foisted upon them by the unions.

In the ensuing moments this small group of strangers were seen visibly banging their heads against the wall, trying valiantly to remember the name of the people’s choice for leader – they didnae ken Ken’s name.

Just like Ed Miliband before him, these young Scottish Labour supporters struggled to remember the name of the MSP favoured by party members.

Then one of the group went one better than Ed and called out, “Ken something!”.  That was the trigger for one of the others, a nonbeliever apparently, to have a eureka moment… “Ah… Ken… Ken MacIntosh!”

What has poor Ken MacIntosh, a decent enough chap, done to cause such mass amnesia amongst ruling elite and young pretenders alike?

Practice question
Next we get to that all important practice question that didn’t make it onto air.  Surely a question that wasn't that important to the debate, a joke question about Scottish passports perhaps?

My memory isn’t all it used to be, so bear with me while I try to reproduce the substance of it as best I can.

“What are the benefits of the Union?”

It was a beautiful question, simple, easily understood and designed to elicit a definitive answer.  But what was it doing as the practice?  But hey, this is BBC Scotland we're talking about.

Lesley “Ya bas” Riddoch, one of two shining stars on the show, kicked off with a well-considered and balanced response.

The answers from the Unionist members of the panel consisted of warm fuzzy sentimental claptrap, in other words naff all – perhaps they needed a second question.

The Deputy First Eck pointed out all the good stuff of the Union would still be with us come independence and then the show began.

The rest of the show was pretty much as aired and available to revisit on the iPlayer.  Look out for Jim Wallace trying to strangle the English language with his bare tongue.

My own personal “moment of the evening” was hearing a number of Unionist supporters voicing concerns amongst themselves about the quality of the unionist team, and more importantly the veracity of the argument for keeping Scotland in the union, or should that be lack of a decent defence of the union.

They had lost the first kick aboot, a home tie ‘oot Glenn’s back green’ and they knew it.

The final score was: Unionists United 0 – Caledonia Nats 1 (Jim Wallace ordered off for foul and abusive body language)

Short clip leading up to Wallace's 'red card'

Dim lights Embed Embed this video on your site

Comments  

 
# Arraniki 2012-01-26 18:33
This is better than Harry Enfield's 'Kevin'.
Catch the 'teenage' harumff!

Anyone know how long this man actually practised law?
 
 
# mato21 2012-01-26 20:29
Arraniki

Just had a look out of curiousity

Graduated 1977 Advocate mostly civil law

Stood in Dumfriesshire 1979 lost

Stood for Europ Parly 1979 lost

Stood for Orkney Shetland 1983

So from graduating to politician full time 6years with time out to fight two elections in 1979 and one in1983 I'll let you work out his legal experience
 
 
# Lupus Incomitatus 2012-01-26 20:53
I don't think he has mastered it.
 
 
# mato21 2012-01-26 19:16
I like the idea of an undercover journalist

Arraniki
someone said on another thread that it was less than 10years
 
 
# mato21 2012-01-26 19:19
Poor Nicola she seems to bring out the worst in men Wee Dougie hectoring her on Q.T now this madman
 
 
# J Wil 2012-01-26 20:59
Wallace put himself in a position of legal jeopardy by trying to climb on Nicola's knee.

I always thought that waving, pointing and gesticulating at another person, even without actual contact, could be construed as assault' punishable by a prison or a community sentence.
 
 
# Robert Louis 2012-01-26 19:19
I can still remember Jim Wallace as a politician in Scotland. He has no substantive achievements to his name.

He became deputy First minister by default, in the coalition Scottish Government between Labour and the libdems. He achieved his title of deputy First Minister by default, as being the leader of a rather small and insignificant grouping of Libdems.

I think his behaviour in the debate was hysterical. He has been in London too long, and is drunk with the imagined status his politically appointed title of Lord advocate for Scotland gives him.

He certainly did not get the role because of excellence in legal practise.

His was the behaviour of a know all 14 year old, who in reality knows very little. Silly, very silly.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-01-26 20:45
Wallace, Forsyth, Foulkes. Nothing much to choose beween them. Interfering lordies one and all.

Wallace claims his interference is in the best interests of Scotland. He merely wants to help us. His ulterior motive seems to be to stop Alex Salmond from cooking the referendum, but you cannot help from thinking that Wallace wants to reserve cooking the referendum for himself and his cronies.

If he is that concerned about legalising the referendum he should drop any attempts to attach conditions to it.
 
 
# Siôn Jones 2012-01-26 21:09
Good job none of them have a vote !
 
 
# red kite 2012-01-26 19:20
The 15 year old boy was a star - somebody needs to sign him up for a future career.
 
 
# clootie 2012-01-26 20:59
A killer question delivered like a polished professional - loved it :D
 
 
# wee folding bike 2012-01-26 19:25
I doubt the veracity of the unionist cause.

OTOH I'm trying to lose the equivalent of half the mass of my lightest bike before the spring so I have considerable voracity.
 
 
# Drew1314 2012-01-26 19:57
I have now watched the debate twice (a glutton for punishment, I know) and your "undercover reporter" is pretty much spot on as regards the parts screened. Wallace of Tankerness was trying all bully-boy tactics, shouting, interupting quoting doubtful legal points and in general was downright ignorant to Nicola and Lesley. He was chauvanistic in his approach to the two ladies. If he is one of the best the Unionists have then we WILL become Independent.

No doubting that The two ladies Nicola Sturgeon and Lesley Riddoch won hands down.

As for the other lady, who? Nuff said....
 
 
# Siôn Jones 2012-01-26 21:10
That was no lady, that was Wee Jimmy Krankie.
 
 
# Woodside 2012-01-27 13:34
Quoting Siôn Jones:
That was no lady, that was Wee Jimmy Krankie.


For proof of this stop the programme at 46.46 into it and spot the fandabbiedozzie moment-
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-26 20:00
For some reason the old Scottish saying springas to mind, "Ye canna mak a silk purse frae a sow's lug", every time I see or hear that particular Wallace. Then there is that other old Scots saying, "Some fowk ir aw awa tae ane side, like Gourock".
 
 
# Jim Johnston 2012-01-26 20:09
Surely this is not the standard of debate we can expect from the anti-independence hot shots.
Wallace was an disgrace, flopping about in his chair like a fool, slabbering non stop over other guests, especially every time NS started to make a point, and convincing no one. Even by LibDem standards, Wallace came across as a ridiculous fool.

Lamont is supposed to be responsible MSP representing all her constituents, not just the Labour party current line of thought, if they have any thought in their heads between them.

Wee Campbell is a complete waste of space, lightweight pushover in the Marr mould. He would need four wheels on a wheelbarrow to have any sense of balance. Definite officer material at the Beeb written all over him. Numpty.
 
 
# Teri 2012-01-26 20:17
Wonderful, dear undercover agent. I do feel we need to start get together a big team of undercover workers together to infiltrate loads of meetings, debates, discussions etc over the next two years to pick up the real mood, what's really happening and to report back. I'd make a good wee cleaning wummen supplementing her pension somewhere.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-01-26 20:38
I always thought the expression was, 'the morning after the night before'.
 
 
# Arraniki 2012-01-26 20:41
Pace JJ on Campbell:

Definite officer material at the Beeb written all over him.


Just for a moment I registered Boys Brigade and I thought, 'Yes, definite NCO material'.
Pill-box hat for the wee man?
 
 
# weetee 2012-01-26 21:00
Jim Wallace was hilarious, he should do stand up!
 
 
# alasdairmac 2012-01-26 21:04
My first thought was that Wallace had spent too long in the hospitality suite before the show. Don't tell me that was him sober! He had nae chance with the two nippiest of nippy sweeties on either side of him. Who was thon other wee wummin there that contributed nothing. Johanna something wasn't it.
 
 
# clootie 2012-01-26 21:05
Aw Naw! I missed the positive story for the union again - whit wis it.

O/T I loved PM's attempt at Burns at PMQ on Wednesday - that has to be worth a few votes!
 
 
# J Wil 2012-01-26 21:15
A few have fallen into that trap.

Like the BBC newsreader who described Gordon Brown as, 'a dower Scot'.
 
 
# GrassyKnollington 2012-01-26 21:54
Dave Bresstie Cameron reciting Burns was a moment to treasure.
 
 
# rog_rocks 2012-01-27 12:32
What happened to my comment, I guess someone thought it was a bit much, never mind here's a link to a mouse hope it works :-)


bbc.co.uk/.../...
or
telegraph.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# J Wil 2012-01-26 21:09
Now we are being warned by Alistair Darling that if the referendum is not legalised, "...someone..." will take it to court. Who would that someone be Alistair? Or is it just a gutless admission that you would not be wanting to be associated with bringing down the referendum and subverting the will of the Scottish people, keeping your sheet clean as it were?


He will leave it to, "someone", to do it.
Wallace did the same thing when asked if he would challenge it in the court.

The 'you go first while I hide behind this wall' gambit.
 
 
# Siôn Jones 2012-01-26 21:13
Nicola hardly had to do anything to win this argument hands down.The unionists were so dire that they kept shooting themselves and each other. Great TV.
 
 
# Mac 2012-01-26 21:19
So it would appear that BBC Scotland are actively discriminating against audience participation by SNP members and members of the public who may vote SNP. Does this discrimination stretch to panelists, texters, online comments and phone callers?
 
 
# Jester 2012-01-27 10:29
Quoting Mac:
So it would appear that BBC Scotland are actively discriminating against audience participation by SNP members and members of the public who may vote SNP. Does this discrimination stretch to panelists, texters, online comments and phone callers?

See my comments below regarding paranoia. The more we only talk to ourselves the more we convince ourselves that it's true.
 
 
# Arraniki 2012-01-26 21:19
Pace clootie 2012-01-26 20:05
Aw Naw! I missed the positive story for the union again - whit wis it.


Eh, fought almost every other country in the world - twice!
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-01-26 21:42
Is it "What is the United States?"
 
 
# snowthistle 2012-01-26 21:22
i thought the best bit was when NS stunned Johann Lamont into silence on the votes for 16 and 17 year olds
 
 
# weetee 2012-01-26 21:32
That was ny favourite too! Nicola was brilliant!
 
 
# Jester 2012-01-27 10:27
Quoting snowthistle:
i thought the best bit was when NS stunned Johann Lamont into silence on the votes for 16 and 17 year olds

I think that was a killer blow, but we really need more like that.
 
 
# McHaggis 2012-01-26 21:40
I read all the comments here on a few threads and watched the show an hour or so ago...

What really was worrying was the level of support (clapping) Lamont received regularly throughout her appearance. These Labour supporters seem truly satisfied with all the mincey language and rhetoric but no actual SUBSTANCE!

I reckon the independence side won the debate but only just and not so much for its own input, but for the number of own goals scored by Wallace.
 
 
# Jester 2012-01-27 10:26
Quoting McHaggis:
I read all the comments here on a few threads and watched the show an hour or so ago...

What really was worrying was the level of support (clapping) Lamont received regularly throughout her appearance. These Labour supporters seem truly satisfied with all the mincey language and rhetoric but no actual SUBSTANCE!

I reckon the independence side won the debate but only just and not so much for its own input, but for the number of own goals scored by Wallace.

That's politics for goodness sake! Labour supporters are there to support Labour. Independence supporters did the same for their own side. Hardly a shocker, is it?
 
 
# jasp303 2012-01-26 22:00
Rt Hon Lord Relic of Barriers
 
 
# GrassyKnollington 2012-01-26 22:02
I just watched it in i player and wondered if it was just that she's so mind numbingly dull that made Rosa klebb appear to be talking for far longer than anyone else.

To me it seemed she chuntered on and on uninterrupted and yet when Lesley Riddoch was in the midst of something more interesting Glen cut her off.

The 15 year old had plenty more to say too but after he revealed himself to be the wrong sort of BBC audience member was not heard from further.
 
 
# Arraniki 2012-01-26 22:05
Pace Jiggsbro 2012-01-26 20:42
Is it "What is the United States?"


Fought them tae. Twice! Lost both times.
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-26 22:09
Somewhat strange format with 3 party people (2:1 NO:YES) plus Lesley. I'm not sure if this evened up things to 2:2, but I thought LR is non-party?

NS compressed between two opposition was unfortunate; they should have had more traditional debating format, it really was not like any debate I've attended.
 
 
# Jester 2012-01-27 10:23
Quoting farrochie:
Somewhat strange format with 3 party people (2:1 NO:YES) plus Lesley. I'm not sure if this evened up things to 2:2, but I thought LR is non-party?

NS compressed between two opposition was unfortunate; they should have had more traditional debating format, it really was not like any debate I've attended.

2 for, 2 against. Seemed fair to me. My Labour supporting mate was unhappy the Tories weren't represented. I told him that was Jim Wallaces job!
 
 
# Robert Louis 2012-01-27 13:02
Nope you have over simplified the original post.

I think the point is though, that the two people in favour of the union were from political parties, whereas only one against the union was..

Maybe they should have had Patrick Harvie, as he is in favour of independence, but is not really a great chum of the SNP.

Either way, I think the BBC are still not getting the concept of fairness. I don't think they ever will, whilst editorial control is in London.

The BBC does not serve Scotland, and it certainly is not fair and balanced in its political coverage in Scotland.
 
 
# Jester 2012-01-27 13:10
Quoting Robert Louis:
Nope you have over simplified the original post.

I think the point is though, that the two people in favour of the union were from political parties, whereas only one against the union was..

Maybe they should have had Patrick Harvie, as he is in favour of independence, but is not really a great chum of the SNP.

Either way, I think the BBC are still not getting the concept of fairness. I don't think they ever will, whilst editorial control is in London.

The BBC does not serve Scotland, and it certainly is not fair and balanced in its political coverage in Scotland.

It could have been the usual 3 plus a celeb or columnist (supposedly not affiliated) against the SNP. I think it worked in our favour that the columnist wasn't bound by party constraints and said what they thought. 1-0 to us.
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-27 14:19
Yes, that was my point (2:1 +1?). I hope that we'll see this move from a party matter to a YES:NO debate, where 1:1 will be seen as fair, and Scottish civic opinion is presented.
 
 
# 1314 2012-01-26 22:38
After someone from the audience had commented that independence was less about economics and more about having control over our own affairs (with me shouting at the box - more of this please) - I seem to remember Ms Lamont affirming that independence was indeed about more than economics.

Now I know I am a sucker for a hopeful line, a wee chink in the armour, and maybe she was simply compelled to say something sensible, positive even, about independence, but you never know. Maybe the accusations of not standing up for Scotland, incase it might suggest supporting independence, are finally finding their mark.

We are maybe unlikely to get the Labour party onside for independence but at least they might be persuaded to engage in positive discussion.
 
 
# 1314 2012-01-26 23:58
Or, as Gerry Hassan put's it in his latest article

"This moment requires a calmness and consideration to allow Scotland and the UK to have a reasoned debate and discussion. So far both the British political classes and media, and a large part of unionist opinion in Scotland has shown no indications that it has the capacity or qualities to do so."

and,

"First, the pro-union forces have a legitimate argument to put about the merits of Scotland remaining in the union, but to do so and be heard, they need to argue a nuanced case which stresses the positives of remaining in the UK; what they must not do for their sake is retreat into their comfort zone of peddling fear and scaremongering stories about independence."


Exactly. We have to at least force the unionist parties to engage in grown up, positive debate. (Well, at least some of the time - it's a bit much to expect that they will entirely resist their addiction to scare stories).
 
 
# Aplinal 2012-01-26 22:40
Just watched the first part on TAofMoridura's youtube site. From what I saw, NuLab were vacuous - Johhan wouldn't answer questions, Wallace was a joke, and both Nicola and Lesley were fine. Actually it was LR who made the most challenging and direct questions to the Unionists.

I would have no problems if this continues in this fashion. More votes for Independence as I see it.
 
 
# Talorcan 2012-01-26 23:15
JeeZ oh! 1979 all over again. It's so dreadfully dull. Labour are still the same bunch of hypocrites as they ever were. Ms. Lamont's utopian dream of a world without boundaries sounds to me like some kind of Soviet Socialist Republic. I don't fancy that much at all. Nicola wasn't bad but she needs to cultivate the kind of cutting edge that Salmond has. Jim Wallace is simly beyond words, apart from Toady. Ms. Riddoch deserved more time and she was denied it by Glen Campbell. And that was just wrong.
 
 
# tartanfever 2012-01-26 23:24
Mmm, I'm going to be a minority of one here. I thought Wallace and Lamont were ridiculous, Lesley Riddoch is a journalist, therefore has the luxury of being able to do/say what she want (though agreed her points were well put)

Nicola Sturgeon was ok, she did get flustered a little, and raised her voice, and interrupted - some things posters are saying she didn't do (but she did).

The calmest of all (voice level, body movements etc) was Lesley Riddoch, as you would expect.

My biggest objection is to the programme. Very few audience questions were actually answered, and some ridiculous statements were allowed to pass from the audience, most notably, the older women asking 'if NS and AS were learning German because we would not be allowed to join Sterling and would be forced to join the Euro and be governed from Berlin'. These statements were just allowed to be made without comment and that is where the rigging takes place from BBC Scotland, absolutely no question there were a few unionist plants in there.

Most surprisingly for me was how NS let Lamont of the hook consistently for the first 20 minutes regarding the issues of devo max and a fair cross party consultation. Labour have categorically said that they will not be offering anything in the form of devo max etc towards this referendum - how then can Lamont be allowed to take the high ground claiming 'no consultation' when they clearly don't want any.

Lamont should have been nailed for that.
 
 
# McHaggis 2012-01-26 23:58
a fair assessment... and at the risk of being shouted down, it did appear to me that the lady who regarded Scotland as ripe for taking orders from Germany, was among many anti-independence voices in the audience with (dare I say it) English accents... replay it and count them.

OK,OK, their accent should be neither here nor there, but I hope you understand what I am getting at. I wouldn't expect many people who have moved to Scotland from England in recent years to favour independence.
 
 
# mountaincadre 2012-01-26 23:44
To the MODS, did you have to use a picture of Jim Wallace looking like he's just had a follow through.Sorry but every time i see it it hurts.
 
 
# 1314 2012-01-27 00:18
Printing photographs of opposition personalities which have caught them looking, momentarily, stupid/unattractive, is infantile. It is the kid of thing for which we castigate MM and unionist publications.

If we don't raise our game, it seems entirely unreasonable to expect unionists to raise their's.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-01-27 02:27
If you are talking about the Wallace picture above, which does make him look slightly ridiculous, it should be said that there were not that many opportunities for a picture during the debate where that was not his settled posture.
 
 
# smerral 2012-01-27 00:40
Quote:
Printing photographs of opposition personalities which have caught them looking, momentarily, stupid/unattractive, is infantile.

In this case it's justified though - he looked stupid throughout....
 
 
# Bert 2012-01-27 01:00
Just watch the debate.
Thought N.S. was very quiet.
Mr. Outrage was resonable fair by his past performences. The scottish leader was her usual pathetic self and lord cantankerness well enough said.
 
 
# brusque 2012-01-27 01:31
Has it occured to anyone that it was extremely convenient that Glenn Campbell had his passport on him when a question about passports was posed? it's almost as though he was expecting to need it!

Are we seriously expected to believe that he carries it around with him?

Planted question from audience member is much more likely the truth of it!!!!
 
 
# Thee Forsaken One 2012-01-27 02:01
The questions are selected a few days ahead of the program. It doesn't need to be planted. During the Election campaign, my father (SNP voter for 20+ years) was selected to ask his question at the Education Big Debate a good four or five days before it was recorded.

The BBC are biased, but they have not quite gotten to that stage yet. I understand the anger and resentment, but please don't let it make you see things that aren't there.

EDIT: Unless it wasn't part of the formal questions (Not seen it yet) then perhaps. Although I do know some people who carry their passport around with them all the time in fairness.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-01-27 02:24
Well he may need to get out of the country quick!
 
 
# DonaldMhor 2012-01-31 20:10
Quoting brusque:
Has it occured to anyone that it was extremely convenient that Glenn Campbell had his passport on him when a question about passports was posed? it's almost as though he was expecting to need it!

Are we seriously expected to believe that he carries it around with him?

Planted question from audience member is much more likely the truth of it!!!!





Most BBC journalists will carry their passports close to them. As they are expected to go to the airport at a moments notice to embark to where ever they are told. The BBC has camera kits at most airports ready for crews to grab and go. Most staff who are expected to do location work have a grab bag packed 24/7 ready to go. I know I was one.
 
 
# Jester 2012-01-27 10:13
After writing a long response to the article and the questions raised my computer crashed, so I'll be brief.
I attended the debate, thought the split in the panel 50/50 pro-/anti independence was correct. Selected questions (where the questioner was named) are selected in advance, which explains Glenns passport. Yes, I'd agree that the warm up question was a strange one, considering that the passport question was selected. Comments from the floor- looking at the Berlin one, it was just so off the wall, from a Daily Mail reader no doubt, that they really don't merit further discussion. I put I supported SNP on my form and was chosen to attend. I didn't see any jiggery pokery going on (and believe me I was looking), I thought Glenn Campbell was fair but weak, allowing Rosa and Kevin to witter (to their detriment you might say). Has anyone considered that labour supporters are doing the same thing, writing down that they aren't political party members, that they are 'undecided' also?
Sometimes I think we can be a bit too paranoid, and ought to get out more. Instead of talking to ourselves we should talk to others. Spread the word and learn at the same time.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-01-27 10:32
All fair points, but just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

That the most difficult - apparently - question for the Unionists to answer, which ought to be central to the debate, was asked as a warm-up question and not broadcast is extraordinary.
 
 
# Jester 2012-01-27 10:38
Quoting Jiggsbro:
All fair points, but just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

That the most difficult - apparently - question for the Unionists to answer, which ought to be central to the debate, was asked as a warm-up question and not broadcast is extraordinary.

Plenty of time for it to be asked. More debates to come. It has been said (and the point has merit) that it is up to us to argue why we should not remain in the union, not for them to defend it. They are happy with the situation. If so, we have the ball, so lets run with it.
 
 
# Robert Louis 2012-01-27 13:08
Quote from jester;

"It has been said (and the point has merit) that it is up to us to argue why we should not remain in the union, not for them to defend it."


I disagree. In a rational debate either side should present its case. It is not merely for one side to present its case.

The notion that unionists need do nothing is frankly absurd. Unionists need to tell voters why the union is good for them, and why it needs to be kept. I have asked for several years to hear the so-called 'positive case' for the union. To date, no such case has been made. If the union is so good, let's hear why??

We need BOTH points of view, not just one, as you suggest.
 
 
# Jester 2012-01-27 13:25
Quoting Robert Louis:
Quote from jester;

"It has been said (and the point has merit) that it is up to us to argue why we should not remain in the union, not for them to defend it."


I disagree. In a rational debate either side should present its case. It is not merely for one side to present its case.

The notion that unionists need do nothing is frankly absurd. Unionists need to tell voters why the union is good for them, and why it needs to be kept. I have asked for several years to hear the so-called 'positive case' for the union. To date, no such case has been made. If the union is so good, let's hear why??

We need BOTH points of view, not just one, as you suggest.


I'm not particularly suggesting that should be the case, it's an argument put forward by unionists. What you are asking them to do is justify a sytem they are happy with. All they have to do is say they are happy with the set up, it provides security, etc, etc. The more they say that they are happy with it, the more we can point out faults and say- "so you are happy with X, Y, Z?"
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-27 10:57
jester, is Lesley Riddoch a confirmed supporter of independence or is she an observer/journalist?

For the viewer, I thought that the format was hopeless. People were having to twist in their chairs to address the person beside them, forcing face to face moments which probably worked for the cameras.
 
 
# Jester 2012-01-27 12:19
Quoting farrochie:
jester, is Lesley Riddoch a confirmed supporter of independence or is she an observer/journalist?
For the viewer, I thought that the format was hopeless. People were having to twist in their chairs to address the person beside them, forcing face to face moments which probably worked for the cameras.

If she isn't a confirmed supporter she was doing a bloody good impression of one.
 
 
# DonaldMhor 2012-01-31 20:12
Quoting Jester:
After writing a long response to the article and the questions raised my computer crashed, so I'll be brief.
I attended the debate, thought the split in the panel 50/50 pro-/anti independence was correct. Selected questions (where the questioner was named) are selected in advance, which explains Glenns passport. Yes, I'd agree that the warm up question was a strange one, considering that the passport question was selected. Comments from the floor- looking at the Berlin one, it was just so off the wall, from a Daily Mail reader no doubt, that they really don't merit further discussion. I put I supported SNP on my form and was chosen to attend. I didn't see any jiggery pokery going on (and believe me I was looking), I thought Glenn Campbell was fair but weak, allowing Rosa and Kevin to witter (to their detriment you might say). Has anyone considered that labour supporters are doing the same thing, writing down that they aren't political party members, that they are 'undecided' also?
Sometimes I think we can be a bit too paranoid, and ought to get out more. Instead of talking to ourselves we should talk to others. Spread the word and learn at the same time.






Having listened and watched BBC Scotland and national for some years now, it is patently obvious that they are not as partial as their Royal Charter and indeed their own guidelines demand. Especially on the subject of Scottish Independence. Turkeys do not vote for Christmas.
 
 
# Jester 2012-01-27 10:47
The question we should be asking is what part will Scottish Labour/ Conservatives/ Liberals have after independence. Are they up to the challenge of taking their type of politics forward in an independent Scotland? Do they have a plan MacB?
We need to convince supporters of those parties that by supporting an independent Scotland it furthers their aims too. A vote for independence isn't a vote for the SNP.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-01-27 10:51
I firmly believe that an independent Scotland would benefit every (mainstream) political party in Scotland. The problem is, it wouldn't benefit any political party in the rUK, and as the UK parties effectively control and direct their Scottish equivalents, the Scottish parties end up supporting what is against their best interests (and against the best interests of their Scottish voters).
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-27 10:52
Try posting over on Labourhame on this subject:

www.labourhame.com/
 
 
# Stevie Cosmic 2012-01-27 11:19
Hi Jester

Quote:
A vote for independence isn't a vote for the SNP.


This has been my mantra for long enough, and I think that given enough time has now elapsed since May, it is, at least as far as I can see, beginning to bear some fruit, because it gets to the very heart of opposition argument, which erroneously has the SNP at it's core.

I've yet to hear anyone come up with a sensible and robust rebuttal. I normally frame it thus:

A Yes vote is not a vote for the SNP, it is a vote for Scottish independence. Nor is it a vote to make the SNP the first elected government of an independent Scotland; that vote will take place in the first Scottish General Election, wherein there shall be true Scottish Labour, Liberal and Conservative parties, amongst many others, to choose from. If the yes vote prevails, the opposition parties will have no choice but to re-align.

I'd like to see a lot more people articulate this argument and expand on it further. It's a sure fire vote winner, especially with the disillusioned.
 
 
# Teri 2012-01-27 15:43
Jester
'A vote for independence isn't a vote for the SNP'
The myth that only the SNP are in favour of independence wont go away till the other parties - Greens, SSP, Scottish Democratic Alliance et al, come out and make their voices heard.
I'm not criticising them for not doing so at the moment. This is the time for the Scottish Government and Westminster to thrash out the processses, but when consultations are over and processes are agreed, these other parties need to be more visible and vocal. If they truly believe in an independent Scotland, they wont sit on the fence. My hope is at the moment they're starting to organise and prepare their campaigns.
 
 
# Jester 2012-01-27 15:59
Quoting Teri:
Jester
'A vote for independence isn't a vote for the SNP'
The myth that only the SNP are in favour of independence wont go away till the other parties - Greens, SSP, Scottish Democratic Alliance et al, come out and make their voices heard.
I'm not criticising them for not doing so at the moment. This is the time for the Scottish Government and Westminster to thrash out the processses, but when consultations are over and processes are agreed, these other parties need to be more visible and vocal. If they truly believe in an independent Scotland, they wont sit on the fence. My hope is at the moment they're starting to organise and prepare their campaigns.

I agree, the sooner they start saying what their vision of an independent Scotland will be like the better.
 
 
# seven 2012-01-27 16:52
A quick google for the SSP
THE POSITIVE CASE FOR INDEPENDENCE
[Scottish Socialist Party statement on the Independence Referendum – Jan 2012]

Scotland’s New Year hangover had barely subsided when David Cameron gate-crashed the country’s Independence debate effectively detonating the inherent conflict between Westminster and Holyrood, between ‘legality’ and ‘political reality’, between an unpopular unionist Coalition in London with no mandate and a popular nationalist Government in Edinburgh.

The battle lines are now being drawn in a titanic political struggle with no quarter given or expected.

But there can be no doubt that the main event in Autumn 2014 will feature an epic contest to answer one key question - will the people of Scotland be better off as part of the United Kingdom or in an Independent nation?

The Scottish Socialist Party is in no doubt about the answer.

We have been committed to an independent socialist Scotland since our inception in 1998. We are convinced that working people will be economically, socially, politically and culturally better off if we are able to make our own decisions, control our own economy, direct our own resources and determine our own destiny in the world.

We favour a bold referendum with one straight question – Independence Yes or No?
We believe the elected Scottish Parliament should oversee the referendum process to ensure it is carried out fairly and democratically. And we have, for the record, long advocated that 16 and 17 years olds should be enfranchised.

The SSP is convinced that if the Independence movement takes its case round the country with enthusiasm and energy, to every community, town and village, then we can win a majority in the 2014 referendum .

We are hugely encouraged by evidence which shows that an independent Scotland would not countenance the appalling levels of inequality, child poverty and fuel poverty which continue to blight our country, would never have accepted the privatisation of our hospitals, schools, prisons or other vital public services.

We would not have sent Scottish soldiers to die in Iraq or Afghanistan, would not allow Trident nuclear missiles to be stationed on our soil.

The Scottish Socialist Party will campaign energetically and with great enthusiasm for a Yes vote. We helped to found the Scottish Independence Convention in 2004 and we continue to work within it towards maximising support for that Yes vote.

Our goal is an independent socialist Scotland, a modern democratic republic. We believe such a Government will be able to ensure the sovereignty and autonomy of the Scottish people is ranked above the aims of British Imperialism and international capital.

That commitment to socialism and democracy is what sets us apart from the other parties.

And I think the reason we haven't heard from them or the greens for that matter is the media effectively ignores them.
 
 
# raisethegame 2012-01-27 11:15
A good article from Joyce McMillan in the Scotsman
"‘It won’t work’ is not good enough"
'Independence debate is fully joined and hell mend unionists who have nothing positive to offer...'
scotsman.com/.../...
 
 
# zorbathejock 2012-01-27 11:51
Is there any way i can watch the programme as i live abroad and the BBC iplayer doesn't work here.
 
 
# balbeggie 2012-01-27 11:58
try Peter Curran's site

moridura.blogspot.com/.../...
 
 
# Jester 2012-01-27 12:29
**OT** I need help with Photoshop. I'm looking to create some pro-independence pictures for use on websites, forums, etc. I want to be able to cut and paste figures and haven't a clue how that is done on Photoshop. If anyone can help PM me on Quirkynats (Grendel). :-)
 
 
# Robert Louis 2012-01-27 13:11
Lynda.com You can subscribe for a month, for a small sum.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-01-27 13:24
Nice little tutorial here:

pixalo.com/.../...
 
 
# Jester 2012-01-27 13:31
Thanks guys. :-)
I'll let you know how I get on.
 
 
# Shinty 2012-01-27 15:40
What was the point in asking the audience questions when half of them went unanswered. Glenn Campbell was rubbish, allowing JL & JW to ramble on and on. JW reminded me of one of the 'wooden tops'
Leslley was absolutely spot on about the passport question - the time wasted on it was ridiculous to say the least.NS was very composed and relaxed, but did not get to get her points over without iterruption. Next time I would like to suggest to the BBC they have Cameron & Salmond on their podiums (American Style)
with someone with the knowledge & credibilty of Lesley Riddoch as chair.
 
 
# Mac 2012-01-27 15:44
Well we can summarise that the unionists can't articulate a positive or progressive message about the union, about devolution or as we know about independence.

They all believe that Scots and Scotland are fated to be failures and a disaster, and nothing can be done except to crawl on our hands and knees and beg charity and shelter from our English cousins.

It is that sheer scale of negativity and dread that simply beggars belief.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-01-27 16:35
Quoting Mac:
Well we can summarise that the unionists can't articulate a positive or progressive message about the union


Andy Murray progressed to the semi-final of the Australian Open as a UK player, but lost it as a Scot, thus proving that the Union is a positive benefit to sportsmen.
 
 
# Jester 2012-01-27 16:00
Don't forget the F factor. Fear is a major part of their arsenal.
 
 
# Jester 2012-01-27 16:30
Please can someone change that photo of 'ratty' Wallace. I pee myself laughing everytime I see it!
 
 
# Thee Forsaken One 2012-01-27 16:50
I wish Margo MacDonald got to be at the Big Debate, although after watching her in the Claim of Right debate, I think the BBC were scared Lord Wallace would burst into flames from her words. They really need to get her in there as another representative of independence.

She really seems to have got some fire in her since Alex Salmond's announcement at Edinburgh Castle.

As for Labour's contribution to the Claim of Rights... It was typically immature rubbish (Honourable exclusion to Malcolm Chisholm).
 
 
# mato21 2012-01-27 16:59
O/T

Once again our wee country proves it is not STUPID

Scots win world debating championship

Well done to the 5 youngsters who did our country proud in South Africa
 
 
# brh206 2012-01-27 17:08
When I was listening to the Unionists the following song came to mind that is such a powerful song:

The higher you build your barriers
The taller I become
The farther you take my rights away
The faster I will run
You can deny me
You can decide to turn your face away
No matter, cos there's....

Something inside so strong
I know that I can make it
Tho' you're doing me wrong, so wrong
You thought that my pride was gone
Oh no, something inside so strong
Oh oh oh oh oh something inside so strong

The more you refuse to hear my voice
The louder I will sing
You hide behind walls of Jericho
Your lies will come tumbling
Deny my place in time
You squander wealth that's mine
My light will shine so brightly
It will blind you
Cos there's......

Something inside so strong
I know that I can make it
Tho' you're doing me wrong, so wrong
You thought that my pride was gone
Oh no, something inside so strong
Oh oh oh oh oh something inside so strong

Brothers and sisters
When they insist we're just not good enough
When we know better
Just look 'em in the eyes and say
I'm gonna do it anyway
I'm gonna do it anyway

Something inside so strong
And I know that I can make it
Tho' you're doing me wrong, so wrong
You thought that my pride was gone
Oh no, something inside so strong
Oh oh oh oh oh something inside so strong

Brothers and sisters
When they insist we're just good not enough
When we know better
Just look 'em in the eyes and say
I'm gonna do it anyway
I'm gonna do it anyway
I'm gonna do it anyway
I'm gonna do it anyway

Because there's something inside so strong
And I know that I can make it
Tho' you're doing me, so wrong
You thought that my pride was gone
Oh no, something inside so strong
Oh oh oh oh oh something inside so strong

Because there's something inside so strong
And I know that I can make it
Tho' you're doing me, so wrong
You thought that my pride was gone
Oh no, something inside so strong
Oh oh oh oh oh something inside so strong

Labi Siffre
 
 
# RandomScot 2012-01-28 17:21
If you do that Twitter thing he's on there
 
 
# School Tie Colours 2012-01-27 18:14
I know the first guy that asked the question about a return to the UK if independence didn't work.

I was his boss and he's a nice fellow but absolutely clueless. Next time I see him I'll try and explain what self determination means!

I don't think he would have thought of the question himself!
 
 
# daveniz 2012-01-27 19:00
best line I heard from the audience "eh you wae the silver hair (jim Wallace looked shocked) aye you! You look like a relic and talk like a relic" lol
 
 
# School Tie Colours 2012-01-27 19:11
Loved the bit about the outdated warmongering British Imperialism from the same guy. We won't be having any of that I thank you.
 
 
# Marga B 2012-01-28 01:10
O/T but has anyone else encountered the visceral hatred of Salmond among groups like Ladies who Lunch.

Stalwarts of the community and salt of the earth, but utterly convinced that Scotland is being frogmarched to oblivion by a fanatic. University education combined with Sunday Post politics, regurgitating as their own every MSM "SNP accused" /alarmist story.

It's not just Labour electors that will be a problem. How to convince these people, probably conservative/libdem voters but worshippers of McConnell and the Scottish unionist elite. Being away for so long, I have no idea.
 
 
# Ken500 2012-01-28 10:52
The BBC is a disgrace

Why in any discussions are their three Unionists and one Independence supporter.

There should be two and two.

The LibDem saying most Scottish exports going to England (the EU passing through?). While Scotland buys (pro rata) most from British firms.

No mention of the £300Billion+ Oil Fund that has disappeared south for the last 30 years.
 
 
# Robabody 2012-01-28 14:36
Looking at that photograph of Jim Wallace I'm reminded of Benny Hill's parody of a Chinese Moaist official....."Why you no rissin you irriot?
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-01-28 14:39
I want that photo on a campaign poster, with the slogan "Is this really what you want?"
 
 
# MacSenex 2012-01-29 20:35
Wallace reminded me of Sir Les Paterson
 
 
# rhymer 2012-01-31 17:42
How about a programme where Willie, wee Ruthie and Johanne all discuss who should lead the "anti-independence" group and why. That would be fun.
And maybe they could actually come up with a list of FACTS as to why their union is preferable - it is still a mystery.
 

You must be logged-in in order to post a comment.

Donate to Newsnet Scotland

Banner

Latest Comments