Sunday, 12 February 2012 12:57
98 Comments
By a Newsnet reporter
The Liberal Democrats have been challenged to say whether they support votes for 16 and 17 year-olds in the referendum over Scotland's constitutional future after it emerged that the Deputy Prime Minister's Parliamentary Private Secretary Jo Swinson MP is set to host a meeting of the Votes at 16 Campaign Coalition in Westminster.
While the UK Government has signalled it doesn't want 16 and 17 year olds voting on Scotland's future as they tried to dictate the terms of Scotland’s referendum, Ms Swinson says she will "bring together young people, organisations and parliamentarians to discuss the Votes at 16 campaign, including plans for a week of action", on 27 February.
Labour and Lib Dem MPs and MSPs, including the Leader of the Lib Dems Nick Clegg, the Deputy leaders of both parties in Scotland and the Shadow Scottish Secretary Margaret Curran have given their support to the Votes at 16 campaign. The Lib Dems, who voted with the SNP to introduce votes at 16 in Scotland's health board elections, promised to lower the voting age in their 2010 manifesto.
In an online meeting with party supporters prior to the 2010 Westminster election which saw the Lib Dems go into Coalition with the Conservatives, party leader Nick Clegg spoke of his strong support for extending the franchise to young adults aged 16 and 17.
Asked if he would support extending the right to vote to 16 year olds, Mr Clegg replied:
"Yes I am a big supporter of votes at 16. The state can ask a 16 year old to fight and die for this country, why not vote too?"
Labour MPs including party leader Ed Miliband, Douglas Alexander and shadow Scotland spokesperson Margaret Curran, supported an amendment calling for 16 and 17 year-olds to be permitted to vote in last year's AV referendum.
In 2008, the Labour party conference accepted the recommendation of the party's National Policy Forum to press for votes for 16 and 17 year olds.
Commenting, SNP MP Mike Weir said:
"It is time the Lib Dems were honest about where they stand on votes for 16 and 17 year-olds. Is this one of those policies, like tuition fees, where the LibDems say one thing and do the other. Indeed, the LibDems have already let young people down once, will they do it again?
"16 and 17 year olds already play a part in our society. They should be able to have their say over Scotland's future.
"Attaching strings to Scotland's referendum is simply not acceptable. The referendum should be decided by the Scottish people and the Scottish parliament.
"It is ridiculous that politicians who say they support 16 and 17 year olds having a vote in elections would not support them voting in a referendum.
"And of course Lib Dems in Scotland have already backed votes for 16 and 17 year olds as part of elections to health boards.
"Penalising those 16 and 17 year olds who will be looking to the future of their country in an attempt to attack the SNP is just another sign of how badly the Tories, Lib Dems and now Labour are misreading the Scottish people.
"It is grossly unfair those aged 16 and 17 are able to play a major part in our society, to pay taxes, join the armed forces, consent to marriage but under UK Government plans will not be barred from making democratic decisions about their own future.
"All parties have accepted that the SNP has the right and mandate to hold a referendum on Scottish Independence. The LibDems and Labour members have accepted that 16 and 17 year olds should be given the vote. They should reaffirm their position, stop equivocating and ensure 16 and 17 year olds are able to vote."
Comments
#
2012-02-12 13:36
Of course they should be given a franchise!
They are the future of the country and as such are entitled to vote if they carry other responsibilitie s in Scotland as a citizen.
How will they vote?
Does it matter!
They are the future of the country and as such are entitled to vote if they carry other responsibilitie s in Scotland as a citizen.
How will they vote?
Does it matter!
#
2012-02-12 14:23
How will they vote?
Does it matter!
Excellent point. If the British Unionists are so sure that they are right, surely they can present a decent case to Scotland's future? Or maybe they can't, hence the reticence to extend the franchise.
Does it matter!
Excellent point. If the British Unionists are so sure that they are right, surely they can present a decent case to Scotland's future? Or maybe they can't, hence the reticence to extend the franchise.
#
2012-02-13 00:44
Quoting Skip_NC:
Excellent point. If the British Unionists are so sure that they are right, surely they can present a decent case to Scotland's future? Or maybe they can't, hence the reticence to extend the franchise.
There is o excuse. The only point I have heard being expressed against votes for these young people just doesn't hold water. That point was they had no interest in political matters. This is a silly point in not allowing those who want to. We do not have compulsory votes in any UK country so those interested will register and those not interested will not. It's as simple as that.
How will they vote?
Does it matter!
Excellent point. If the British Unionists are so sure that they are right, surely they can present a decent case to Scotland's future? Or maybe they can't, hence the reticence to extend the franchise.
There is o excuse. The only point I have heard being expressed against votes for these young people just doesn't hold water. That point was they had no interest in political matters. This is a silly point in not allowing those who want to. We do not have compulsory votes in any UK country so those interested will register and those not interested will not. It's as simple as that.
#
2012-02-13 00:49
Agreed...
But talking about the ones who are interested it would be interesting if we see a youth movement set up to express their voices...
Possibly using the Youth Parliament as a basis for the movement and extending it through the secondary education system.
What do the Teaching Unions think about the subject and would they promote the idea within the schools themselves?
But talking about the ones who are interested it would be interesting if we see a youth movement set up to express their voices...
Possibly using the Youth Parliament as a basis for the movement and extending it through the secondary education system.
What do the Teaching Unions think about the subject and would they promote the idea within the schools themselves?
#
2012-02-13 00:51
The following are all red lines and should not be traded to WESTMINSTER at all!
Timing
Franchise
Question
Eligibility
Interpretation of the result
We CANNOT allow Westminster to take control of any aspect or they will use it to undermine the referendum.
Timing
Franchise
Question
Eligibility
Interpretation of the result
We CANNOT allow Westminster to take control of any aspect or they will use it to undermine the referendum.
#
2012-02-12 13:57
What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
The Lib dems can't have it both ways.
If you are able to pay tax at 16 then you should be able to vote.
They founded a whole nation on the principle of being denied a vote. Taxation without representation ring a bell with anyone?
The Lib dems can't have it both ways.
If you are able to pay tax at 16 then you should be able to vote.
They founded a whole nation on the principle of being denied a vote. Taxation without representation ring a bell with anyone?
#
2012-02-12 14:45
Quoting Keef:
Afraid that argument doesn't work. You can pay tax from the moment you're born; all you need is taxable income.
On the more substantive point I don't feel strongly either way on whether 16 and 17 year olds should get the vote but if they are to be given the vote it should be for all elections not just the referendum.
What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
The Lib dems can't have it both ways.
If you are able to pay tax at 16 then you should be able to vote.They founded a whole nation on the principle of being denied a vote. Taxation without representation ring a bell with anyone?
Afraid that argument doesn't work. You can pay tax from the moment you're born; all you need is taxable income.
On the more substantive point I don't feel strongly either way on whether 16 and 17 year olds should get the vote but if they are to be given the vote it should be for all elections not just the referendum.
#
2012-02-13 00:56
Then it should be for ALL elections...
The apathy that pervades our elections could be overcome if Secondary School Students were encouraged to participate while they are still within an establishment that can higlight the importance and benefit of democracy and the resultant duty to vote to maintain the freedoms we have.
For too long Westminster has offered three flavours of Tory, safe in the knowledge that voter apathy wont ignite a real democratic movement. Well we may just be seeing that in the SNP and we need to nurture it and promote it and one way to achieve that is to empower our youth to be a part of society, not dictated to by society.
The apathy that pervades our elections could be overcome if Secondary School Students were encouraged to participate while they are still within an establishment that can higlight the importance and benefit of democracy and the resultant duty to vote to maintain the freedoms we have.
For too long Westminster has offered three flavours of Tory, safe in the knowledge that voter apathy wont ignite a real democratic movement. Well we may just be seeing that in the SNP and we need to nurture it and promote it and one way to achieve that is to empower our youth to be a part of society, not dictated to by society.
#
2012-02-13 13:01
[quote name="jim288
If you are able to pay tax at 16 then you should be able to vote
For centuries noo, 16 year aulds in Scotland haes haed the richt tae mairry athoot the permeeshion o pawrents or onybody else.
If you are able to pay tax at 16 then you should be able to vote
For centuries noo, 16 year aulds in Scotland haes haed the richt tae mairry athoot the permeeshion o pawrents or onybody else.
#
2012-02-12 19:56
It's high time the age was standard right across the board.
They can buy fags but not drink; doesn't make sense. Never having bought it (honestly) what's the age for buying adult magazines?
The age of maturity is by nature different for everyone, but the legal age has to be standard
They can buy fags but not drink; doesn't make sense. Never having bought it (honestly) what's the age for buying adult magazines?
The age of maturity is by nature different for everyone, but the legal age has to be standard
#
2012-02-13 00:46
Quoting Keef:
No but I will throw a party a tea party.
What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
The Lib dems can't have it both ways.
If you are able to pay tax at 16 then you should be able to vote.
They founded a whole nation on the principle of being denied a vote. Taxation without representation ring a bell with anyone?
No but I will throw a party a tea party.
#
2012-02-12 14:13
Since the 16 year olds have more at stake in Scotland's future than OAPs like me it it rather obvious that they must be allowed to vote in this referendum.
My remaining time here would be spent rejoicing in an independent Scotland but these 16 year olds will be responsible for shaping it's destiny - their future and the future of their children. We are helping to create the future but the 16 year olds will be living in it.
My remaining time here would be spent rejoicing in an independent Scotland but these 16 year olds will be responsible for shaping it's destiny - their future and the future of their children. We are helping to create the future but the 16 year olds will be living in it.
#
2012-02-12 23:43
Indeed so. :)
Me, I'm still sulking because of not getting a vote in the rigged 1979 referendum. Dead people got a say, all my friends at university (mostly English) got a vote, but no vote for me 'cos I was a few months short of 18.
(Yes, I do tend to bear grudges for a long time - why do you ask?) :)
Me, I'm still sulking because of not getting a vote in the rigged 1979 referendum. Dead people got a say, all my friends at university (mostly English) got a vote, but no vote for me 'cos I was a few months short of 18.
(Yes, I do tend to bear grudges for a long time - why do you ask?) :)
#
2012-02-13 13:18
great comment = important point. However I'm sure you will be around for a long time yet.
#
2012-02-12 14:20
"Ms Swinson says she will "bring together young people, organisations and parliamentarian s to discuss the Votes at 16 campaign, including plans for a week of action", on 27 February."
Ms Swinson has just said on BBC Scotland Politics Show that she supports votes for 16 and 17 year olds. but in all elections not only the referendum.
I may be wrong about this but is that not SNP policy as well? If so then we have the LIb Dems on the side of fairness for the young people and only have to get Labour to stick by what they have said in the past and it is a done deal. I dont know what the tories think about it but given the level of support they have in Scotland that should have no bearing on the issue.
Ms Swinson has just said on BBC Scotland Politics Show that she supports votes for 16 and 17 year olds. but in all elections not only the referendum.
I may be wrong about this but is that not SNP policy as well? If so then we have the LIb Dems on the side of fairness for the young people and only have to get Labour to stick by what they have said in the past and it is a done deal. I dont know what the tories think about it but given the level of support they have in Scotland that should have no bearing on the issue.
#
2012-02-12 21:33
"Ms Swinson has just said on BBC Scotland Politics Show that she supports votes for 16 and 17 year olds. but in all elections not only the referendum."
Very convenient. Who does she think she is kidding over her reasoning? People like her just seem to open their mouths and let their guts rumble and assume we will be taken in by her comments.
She does not know the meaning of sincerity.
Very convenient. Who does she think she is kidding over her reasoning? People like her just seem to open their mouths and let their guts rumble and assume we will be taken in by her comments.
She does not know the meaning of sincerity.
#
2012-02-13 16:14
Ms Swinson is now getting to the stage where she is hilarious. I watched her on the Politics Show and she was actually quite good talking about youth employment, however I was sitting watching, thinking 'wait for it, wait for it' and right enough, as soon as the SNP was mentioned she went completely gaga and lost all coherence. She is my MP and completely useless.
#
2012-02-12 14:36
Im all for 16 & 17 year olds getting the vote, however each time i comment on here the whole story vanishes without trace along with ALL the comments.
What is going on here? i've now made four comments on here, none were derogatory and yet only one was published, this is my last attempt.
What is going on here? i've now made four comments on here, none were derogatory and yet only one was published, this is my last attempt.
#
2012-02-12 15:13
dpict
If you are a new poster on this site then for your first few posts there will be a delay before they appear while the Mods take your measure. Thereafter they should appear as soon as you post them.
Welcome to the site.
If you are a new poster on this site then for your first few posts there will be a delay before they appear while the Mods take your measure. Thereafter they should appear as soon as you post them.
Welcome to the site.
#
2012-02-12 15:19
Quoting Legerwood:
Thanks for the welcome Legerwood, the EBC's latest attempts at "un-biased" reporting has left me more than suspicious of all media outlet's.
Has anyone here seen this yet? if so what do you make of it.
huffingtonpost.co.uk/.../...
dpict
If you are a new poster on this site then for your first few posts there will be a delay before they appear while the Mods take your measure. Thereafter they should appear as soon as you post them.
Welcome to the site.
Thanks for the welcome Legerwood, the EBC's latest attempts at "un-biased" reporting has left me more than suspicious of all media outlet's.
Has anyone here seen this yet? if so what do you make of it.
huffingtonpost.co.uk/.../...
#
2012-02-12 17:52
It looks like Mr Rennie was trying to inflate his importance in the grand scheme of things and has been put in his place.
As far as I am concerned the Union of the crowns pre-dates the Treaty of Union and is not affected by Independence until such times as an Independent Scotland considers the matter of who should be Head of State.
As far as I am concerned the Union of the crowns pre-dates the Treaty of Union and is not affected by Independence until such times as an Independent Scotland considers the matter of who should be Head of State.
#
2012-02-12 20:19
Yes, I like this question.
The fact is that the King of Scots, James VI, succeeded to the English throne in 1603. Must've had some English Lords spitting feathers. (I think they still are.) Thank god they later got the German dynasty coming in, getting rid of those Jocks, except the Westminster hangers-on, the ilk that signed the Treaty of Union.
I lived in Australia when there was a big debate about the monarchy, and a referendum about whether Australia should keep the English/UK monarch as head of state, or should become a true republic, with an elected head of state. The 'no' campaign cried 'keep the Queen' and won something like 63-37. That campaign played on conservative people's fears, the tenous ulimbical cord... Pure Brit scaremongering.
Now, I have nothing agaist the Queen, she's done a sterling job for 60 years, but I just find the idea of hereditary head of state a bit outdated in the modern world.
The fact is that the King of Scots, James VI, succeeded to the English throne in 1603. Must've had some English Lords spitting feathers. (I think they still are.) Thank god they later got the German dynasty coming in, getting rid of those Jocks, except the Westminster hangers-on, the ilk that signed the Treaty of Union.
I lived in Australia when there was a big debate about the monarchy, and a referendum about whether Australia should keep the English/UK monarch as head of state, or should become a true republic, with an elected head of state. The 'no' campaign cried 'keep the Queen' and won something like 63-37. That campaign played on conservative people's fears, the tenous ulimbical cord... Pure Brit scaremongering.
Now, I have nothing agaist the Queen, she's done a sterling job for 60 years, but I just find the idea of hereditary head of state a bit outdated in the modern world.
#
2012-02-12 21:45
As far as I remember, the No vote in Australia was because a large number of potential YES voters didn't like the form of politicvally controlled republicanism on offer, i.e. there was to be only an indirect election of the president. Being unable to vote directly for the head of state put enough people off so that the NO vote won the day quite comfortably.
#
2012-02-12 22:53
Yes, it's coming back to me now. Thank you, Exile, for reminding me of the bungled republican cause.
I think they proposed that the Australian President would be elected by the Parliament or some such nonsense. No wonder people didn't want it - though more than a third still voted to get rid of the English monarchy. And that's what they called it, the English monarchy.
I was in Darling Harbour, Sydney, on Autralia Day, when Prince Charles 'got shot'. Saw him from a distance, then some kerfuffle, and later learned that some hothead had fired a starting gun near him. No real danger to HRH but a bit of a message, aye?
I think they proposed that the Australian President would be elected by the Parliament or some such nonsense. No wonder people didn't want it - though more than a third still voted to get rid of the English monarchy. And that's what they called it, the English monarchy.
I was in Darling Harbour, Sydney, on Autralia Day, when Prince Charles 'got shot'. Saw him from a distance, then some kerfuffle, and later learned that some hothead had fired a starting gun near him. No real danger to HRH but a bit of a message, aye?
#
2012-02-12 21:49
Quoting lumilumi:
I don't mind so much if they're purely ceremonial and they don't cost a lot of money. I'd favour inviting Princess Sophie of Liechtenstein to become Queen of Scotland (she is the rightful heir presumptive, after all).
Alternatively, her sister-in-law Princess Angela, because changing our queen would annoy the little Englanders, but changing our queen to an Afro-Panamanian European Princess would probably cause them to explode.
I just find the idea of hereditary head of state a bit outdated in the modern world.
I don't mind so much if they're purely ceremonial and they don't cost a lot of money. I'd favour inviting Princess Sophie of Liechtenstein to become Queen of Scotland (she is the rightful heir presumptive, after all).
Alternatively, her sister-in-law Princess Angela, because changing our queen would annoy the little Englanders, but changing our queen to an Afro-Panamanian European Princess would probably cause them to explode.
#
2012-02-12 23:07
Isn't the UK monarchy in effect purely ceremonial as well? Though the 'Windsors' cost some money to the taxpayer. But they're a big hit with tourists. Such a quaint English thing.
Is Princess Sophie a descendant of Bonnie Prince Charlie?
When Finland became independent in 1917, some conservative parties invited a prince of Hessen to become Finland's king, under the name Väinö I, but nothing came of it (thank god!)
Sweden's Crown Princess Victoria (a no-nonsense 'ordinary' royal) is extremely popular in Finland, there are joking calls for her to become Queen of Finland!
Is Princess Sophie a descendant of Bonnie Prince Charlie?
When Finland became independent in 1917, some conservative parties invited a prince of Hessen to become Finland's king, under the name Väinö I, but nothing came of it (thank god!)
Sweden's Crown Princess Victoria (a no-nonsense 'ordinary' royal) is extremely popular in Finland, there are joking calls for her to become Queen of Finland!
#
2012-02-12 18:34
According to Huff Post, Mr. Rennie demanding AS 'come clean' on SNP voting policy. This is hilarity time with the Liberals seeking voting clarifications.
The Liberals!
The only Party with made-to-measure saddles for fences.
Priceless.
The Liberals!
The only Party with made-to-measure saddles for fences.
Priceless.
#
2012-02-13 01:04
The Union of Crowns will remain and the Queen will remain as head of state in exactly the same fashion as Canada or Australia until such time as the Sovereign people of Scotland choose a change.
I'm not a fan of the Royals but keeping the Queen removes some of the barriers they could put up to independence such by allowing members of the Commonwealth to serve in the UK military. If the RUK wants to parade around like its still the UK then they will have to honour that commitment and as such our people can choose rUK or Scotland forces.
It removes the fear that people were being fed that Salmond wanted to be president... a fake manufactured fear but it needed removed none the less.
No, we will be keeping the Royals for the forseeable future.
By the way, welcome to the site.
I'm not a fan of the Royals but keeping the Queen removes some of the barriers they could put up to independence such by allowing members of the Commonwealth to serve in the UK military. If the RUK wants to parade around like its still the UK then they will have to honour that commitment and as such our people can choose rUK or Scotland forces.
It removes the fear that people were being fed that Salmond wanted to be president... a fake manufactured fear but it needed removed none the less.
No, we will be keeping the Royals for the forseeable future.
By the way, welcome to the site.
#
2012-02-12 14:41
On votes for 16/17yos, the Lib Dem response is as it is on so many other subjects "This Is Not The Right Time"
That fence must chafe terribly.
That fence must chafe terribly.
#
2012-02-12 15:54
Harry
Did you not learn in school that was why barbed wire was invented It made life more interesting for the fence sitters who all seem to enjoy a bit of pain
Mind you they are usually inflicting it on others
Did you not learn in school that was why barbed wire was invented It made life more interesting for the fence sitters who all seem to enjoy a bit of pain
Mind you they are usually inflicting it on others
#
2012-02-12 14:42
Age of majority in Scotland is 16, therefore it stands to reason all 16 year olds should have the vote. In England the age of majority is 18 if they wish to retain 18 as the voting age in England that is their affair.
#
2012-02-12 19:39
The age of majority is an interesting question, especially as it is different in England (+Wales & NI) and Scotland.
In my wee, independent country of 5m people, the age of majority is 18. That's when you're considered a citizen with full powers.
You have to pay tax on summer/part-time job earnings after you're 15 if the earnings go above a certain threshod, you cannot leave school before 16, or before completing the compulsory 9 years. You can volunteer for the (for males) compulsory military service (6 to 11 months) at 17. But 18 is the age when it all happens! You can get a driver's license, you can legally drink, smoke, vote! No wonder Finnish teenagers celebrate that birthday. Most teenagers also go to school for the full 12 years so they're 18/19 when they're set free!
For the past 15-20 yrs, there's been calls in Finland to give the vote to 16/17 yr olds, at least in local elections, but nothing much has happened. I think the 16/17 yr olds who'd be bothered to vote are as clued up about politics as the doddering geriatrics who vote for a particular party "because our family has alway voted for it". The teenagers might even be better clued up, so soon after their Civics classes at school and all the buzz in social media.
In the UK, Libs advocate votes for 16/17, but not in Scotland, at least not for the referendum. Does that party have any consistent policies, does it have a leg to stand on?
Or Labour? One thing in Westminster, another in Holyrood.
The Tories are at least consistent. No votes for under 18s. They'd probably want to restrict the franchise even further. No votes for the poor. Yeah, sounds about right...
In my wee, independent country of 5m people, the age of majority is 18. That's when you're considered a citizen with full powers.
You have to pay tax on summer/part-time job earnings after you're 15 if the earnings go above a certain threshod, you cannot leave school before 16, or before completing the compulsory 9 years. You can volunteer for the (for males) compulsory military service (6 to 11 months) at 17. But 18 is the age when it all happens! You can get a driver's license, you can legally drink, smoke, vote! No wonder Finnish teenagers celebrate that birthday. Most teenagers also go to school for the full 12 years so they're 18/19 when they're set free!
For the past 15-20 yrs, there's been calls in Finland to give the vote to 16/17 yr olds, at least in local elections, but nothing much has happened. I think the 16/17 yr olds who'd be bothered to vote are as clued up about politics as the doddering geriatrics who vote for a particular party "because our family has alway voted for it". The teenagers might even be better clued up, so soon after their Civics classes at school and all the buzz in social media.
In the UK, Libs advocate votes for 16/17, but not in Scotland, at least not for the referendum. Does that party have any consistent policies, does it have a leg to stand on?
Or Labour? One thing in Westminster, another in Holyrood.
The Tories are at least consistent. No votes for under 18s. They'd probably want to restrict the franchise even further. No votes for the poor. Yeah, sounds about right...
#
2012-02-12 20:07
[quote name="lumilumi"]
You have to pay tax on summer/part-time job earnings after you're 15 if the earnings go above a certain threshod,
You are correct that you have to pay tax after your earnings go above a certain threshold but that has nothing to do with age 15. As I posted above you can pay tax from birth if you have taxable income.
You have to pay tax on summer/part-time job earnings after you're 15 if the earnings go above a certain threshod,
You are correct that you have to pay tax after your earnings go above a certain threshold but that has nothing to do with age 15. As I posted above you can pay tax from birth if you have taxable income.
#
2012-02-12 20:23
He was talking about Finland. Maybe you are too, in which case feel free to ignore this post.
#
2012-02-12 20:49
Yes, she was indeed talking about Finland, sorry to not have made it clear.
The point I was trying to make was that under 15 yr olds never pay income tax (they rarely have (summer) jobs anyway) and young people still in school don't have to pay (tax) as you earn until a certain threshold, which most teenagers with summer jobs or part-time jobs never reach.
The point I was trying to make was that under 15 yr olds never pay income tax (they rarely have (summer) jobs anyway) and young people still in school don't have to pay (tax) as you earn until a certain threshold, which most teenagers with summer jobs or part-time jobs never reach.
#
2012-02-12 21:13
lumilumi.
It's Finnish for snowsnow. I love snow. We've got about a foot and a half where I live in Southern Finland, we only got proper snow late (early Jan) this winter but it's stacking up, snowing some more as I type. Only -7 now (it was -32 a few days ago). Hundreds of kilometres of council-maintened cross-country skiing tracks, ploughed streets, cars with winter (studded) tyres, well-insulated houses... I love winter! I guess we know how to 'do' winter. ;-)
It's Finnish for snowsnow. I love snow. We've got about a foot and a half where I live in Southern Finland, we only got proper snow late (early Jan) this winter but it's stacking up, snowing some more as I type. Only -7 now (it was -32 a few days ago). Hundreds of kilometres of council-maintened cross-country skiing tracks, ploughed streets, cars with winter (studded) tyres, well-insulated houses... I love winter! I guess we know how to 'do' winter. ;-)
#
2012-02-12 21:59
Quoting lumilumi:
Yes, typo. Sorry.
I did know what it meant, which is why I should have known it was a girl's name: the only people I've ever known called 'snow' ('eira' in Welsh, coincidentally) have been women.
lumilumi.
Yes, typo. Sorry.
I did know what it meant, which is why I should have known it was a girl's name: the only people I've ever known called 'snow' ('eira' in Welsh, coincidentally) have been women.
#
2012-02-12 22:15
Lumi (=snow) isn't actually a given name in Finland, even though a couple of babies in recent years have been named so.
Lumilumi is just a way of saying lots of snow, and we in Finland tend to think of snow as a good thing. Not the catastrophe it is in England, Wales and, to a certain extent, in Scotland. I can never forget the way the oppositon parties blamed the SNP for the snow in Dec 2010, forced Stuart Stevenson to resign!
Lumilumi is just a way of saying lots of snow, and we in Finland tend to think of snow as a good thing. Not the catastrophe it is in England, Wales and, to a certain extent, in Scotland. I can never forget the way the oppositon parties blamed the SNP for the snow in Dec 2010, forced Stuart Stevenson to resign!
#
2012-02-13 15:25
Sorry lumilumi I should have read your post more carefully. I saw "wee, independent country of 5m people" then the comment about paying tax and just rushed into print. I'll try to be more careful and actually read all of the post in future before commenting.
#
2012-02-12 14:44
Hello---I've just completed my, 'Your Scotland. Your Referendum.'
Scottish Government asking for individual and/or organisation views.
A question regarding voting age is included on form.
Only takes a short time to complete.
Link:-
consult.scotland.gov.uk/
Good luck.
May be the only chance for us to submit our wishes,as individuals, prior to the Referendum.
Scottish Government asking for individual and/or organisation views.
A question regarding voting age is included on form.
Only takes a short time to complete.
Link:-
consult.scotland.gov.uk/
Good luck.
May be the only chance for us to submit our wishes,as individuals, prior to the Referendum.
#
2012-02-12 18:24
You're perfectly correct G W, everyone has the opportunity NOW to have their say, don't miss out.
No doubt the result will play a major part in the referendum, as it should do, no matter where your vote goes.
No doubt the result will play a major part in the referendum, as it should do, no matter where your vote goes.
#
2012-02-12 14:49
The Scottish Government will have to act quickly to have a survey of 14+ year olds to have this ready for 2014.
#
2012-02-12 14:56
In terms of its credibility our National broadcaster, BBC 'Scotland' - that's a laugh - today dredged a new low. By avoiding a discussion in their flagship political programme, Sunday Politics 'Scotland', of the single most explosive political subject to have occurred in our largest city for a quarter century the BBC have nailed their Unionist colours firmly to the mast and closed the door on any remaining shred of integrity and fairness. I cannot be alone in believing that the shenanigans, sleaze and criminality emanating from Glasgow city chambers this week should have been the lead item in any review of the past week in Scottish politics. Imagine the coverage had the SNP been central to this story. The credibility of the producers and the programme managers in Pacific Quay is surely gone forever and there is no way back.
#
2012-02-12 15:16
Particularly so when the Sunday Herald has a whopping front page on the debacle in George Square and extensive coverage inside the paper. This underlines for all to see BBC Scotland's lack of coverage of the issue.
Ian Bell also has a good article on the issue of the BBC etc in today's Sunday Herald.
Ian Bell also has a good article on the issue of the BBC etc in today's Sunday Herald.
#
2012-02-12 20:40
ianbeag
Better an obvious enemy than a devious friend.
They are blatant in their bias and I hope they are all kicked out of Scotland as soon as we achieve independance.
Better an obvious enemy than a devious friend.
They are blatant in their bias and I hope they are all kicked out of Scotland as soon as we achieve independance.
#
2012-02-13 00:12
It is shocking the way BBC scotland has completely body swerved the whole issue. But it does highlight the FM's worries about bias in the BBC. Perhaps it might draw more attention to it?
#
2012-02-12 15:09
Quote:
Ah yes the 2010 LibDem manifesto.
Was that the one that started 'Once upon a time...' but did NOT end '...Happily ever after'?
O/T but the Telegraph's business section has an interesting story about the expected windfall for the Falkland Islanders from oil finds in the waters around the islands.
telegraph.co.uk/.../...
The Lib Dems, who voted with the SNP to introduce votes at 16 in Scotland's health board elections, promised to lower the voting age in their 2010 manifesto.
Ah yes the 2010 LibDem manifesto.
Was that the one that started 'Once upon a time...' but did NOT end '...Happily ever after'?
O/T but the Telegraph's business section has an interesting story about the expected windfall for the Falkland Islanders from oil finds in the waters around the islands.
telegraph.co.uk/.../...
#
2012-02-12 17:15
Cameron said that the Islanders would get all the revenue from oil taxes. Did he have any authority to say that on behalf of the UK?
#
2012-02-12 17:54
Probably not and if he had engaged brain before opening mouth he would have realised just how much ammunition he had handed to the pro-Independence side in Scotland.
But then this sort of behaviour is typical Cameron: Shoot from the lip then dozey-doh a U-turn later when brain engages.
But then this sort of behaviour is typical Cameron: Shoot from the lip then dozey-doh a U-turn later when brain engages.
#
2012-02-13 00:00
Quoting J Wil:
I think if you check, it is maggies oil
Cameron said that the Islanders would get all the revenue from oil taxes. Did he have any authority to say that on behalf of the UK?
I think if you check, it is maggies oil
#
2012-02-12 15:12
ianbeag to be fair BBC allowed Labour's Simon Pia to disparage the rebel councillors.
Interesting point in Herald that the rebels are standing in May and trying to lodge Independent Labour with Electoral Commission who are refusing to allow them to use the word Labour in case it confuses Labour voters...(however the use of "Scottish" Labour is allowed when no such registered party exists)... the British Establishment don't you love them.
Interesting point in Herald that the rebels are standing in May and trying to lodge Independent Labour with Electoral Commission who are refusing to allow them to use the word Labour in case it confuses Labour voters...(however the use of "Scottish" Labour is allowed when no such registered party exists)... the British Establishment don't you love them.
#
2012-02-12 15:35
On the issue of "strings" being attached by Westminster, surely the correct response is to say that none of them will be accepted, not the early date, not their drafting of the question or dictating the date, not on 16/17 year olds having the vote and not even having the Electoral Commission overseeing it.
If the Unionists don't like it, then the answer is simple; call an early election for Holyrood making it clear that it is in effect a vote on those particular issues.
Given recent events, it is likely the SNP will increase their majority in Holyrood, and it will throw the Unionists into further disarray. It will then be impossible for any Unionists north or south of the border to dispute whether the Scots approve of the conditions they are trying to impose.
If the Unionists don't like it, then the answer is simple; call an early election for Holyrood making it clear that it is in effect a vote on those particular issues.
Given recent events, it is likely the SNP will increase their majority in Holyrood, and it will throw the Unionists into further disarray. It will then be impossible for any Unionists north or south of the border to dispute whether the Scots approve of the conditions they are trying to impose.
#
2012-02-12 17:29
"On the issue of "strings" being attached by Westminster, surely the correct response is to say that none of them will be accepted, not the early date, not their drafting of the question or dictating the date, not on 16/17 year olds having the vote and not even having the Electoral Commission overseeing it".
Definitely, 'no Srings attached'. The SG should not set any precedents which might come back to haunt them or any succeeding government.
Definitely, 'no Srings attached'. The SG should not set any precedents which might come back to haunt them or any succeeding government.
#
2012-02-12 16:06
Galen10
I SO agree with you,but,correct me if I'm wrong------is the Scottish Parliament a fixed 5 year one?
Just a thought.
I SO agree with you,but,correct me if I'm wrong------is the Scottish Parliament a fixed 5 year one?
Just a thought.
#
2012-02-12 17:58
It is 5 years for this particular Parliamentary term because the Coalition in Westminster fixed the term for Westminster elections when they came into power and then found out that the two would clash if Scotland kept to its statuitory 4 year term! So the SNP have an extra year this time.
#
2012-02-12 16:13
Quote "The credibility of the producers and the programme managers in Pacific Quay is surely gone forever and there is no way back."
We should bombard Pacific Quay with e-mails of 'ianbeag'(above)excellen t post,adding at the bottom "Copy to Lord Patten,BBC,Lond on".
Just a thought!
We should bombard Pacific Quay with e-mails of 'ianbeag'(above)excellen t post,adding at the bottom "Copy to Lord Patten,BBC,Lond on".
Just a thought!
#
2012-02-12 16:35
Are they going to use wee Joe Swinton to spearhead the pretence that they didn't really want 16 year olds to have the vote ?
#
2012-02-12 20:37
I remember this, when Holyrood's Scotland Bill Committee, under the convenorship of the frothing-at-the-mouth Wendy Alexander discussed it. I think the BBC reported it jokingly, Scotland wants to have penguins or some such.
Antactica apparently has very rich natural resources. Minerals, maybe oil, but, of course very difficult to extract due to the climate.
Also, as Antarctica was the last continent to be 'discovered', in (nearly) modern times, there's an international treaty that states it does not belong to any country. My atlas shows Antarctica divided into sectors like a pie. Sector claimed by Norway, sector claimed by the UK, sector claimed by the Soviet Union/Russia, by the USA, Australia, NZ, Argentina...
Because Antarctica is not a reserved matter, Scotland can lay claim to a small sliver of the UK 'claimed' sector and do whatever it wants to do there - except the exact sliver hasn't been defined.
Antactica apparently has very rich natural resources. Minerals, maybe oil, but, of course very difficult to extract due to the climate.
Also, as Antarctica was the last continent to be 'discovered', in (nearly) modern times, there's an international treaty that states it does not belong to any country. My atlas shows Antarctica divided into sectors like a pie. Sector claimed by Norway, sector claimed by the UK, sector claimed by the Soviet Union/Russia, by the USA, Australia, NZ, Argentina...
Because Antarctica is not a reserved matter, Scotland can lay claim to a small sliver of the UK 'claimed' sector and do whatever it wants to do there - except the exact sliver hasn't been defined.
#
2012-02-12 22:30
Just read up a bit on Antarctica. Shockingly, I noticed that the UK government seems to think that they own a slice.
That is wrong.
No country 'owns' anything in Antarctica, they're just laying claims to various slices. Of course greed will prevail, and England will arm penguins if necessary to help England hang on to its sector. By rights theirs because the English gentleman Scott got to the South Pole right on the tracks of that Norwegian upstart.
That is wrong.
No country 'owns' anything in Antarctica, they're just laying claims to various slices. Of course greed will prevail, and England will arm penguins if necessary to help England hang on to its sector. By rights theirs because the English gentleman Scott got to the South Pole right on the tracks of that Norwegian upstart.
#
2012-02-12 17:12
It's not so long ago that we were told by our tame statistician, Prof. John Curtice, on Newsnicht, that the votes from 16/17 year olds would not make very much difference to the outcome of the referendum. So what are the unionists afraid of?
#
2012-02-12 17:59
What did that poll find out a few months ago? More undecideds would vote yes for a mere £500 more in their annual balance sheet.
----------------------------------
CEBR confirm Scotland stands on own financial feet
Sun, 12/02/2012 - 13:24
In the five years to 2009/10, Scotland was in a stronger financial position than the UK as a whole to the tune of £7.2 billion – or nearly £1,500 for every person in Scotland.”
-----------------------------------------
Well that should seal the deal for many!
----------------------------------
CEBR confirm Scotland stands on own financial feet
Sun, 12/02/2012 - 13:24
In the five years to 2009/10, Scotland was in a stronger financial position than the UK as a whole to the tune of £7.2 billion – or nearly £1,500 for every person in Scotland.”
-----------------------------------------
Well that should seal the deal for many!
#
2012-02-12 19:35
Quoting call me dave:
Problem is the Scottish MSM and BBC etc will just bury it ,and continue with the lies about us being subsidy junkies.
What did that poll find out a few months ago? More undecideds would vote yes for a mere £500 more in their annual balance sheet.
----------------------------------
CEBR confirm Scotland stands on own financial feet
Sun, 12/02/2012 - 13:24
In the five years to 2009/10, Scotland was in a stronger financial position than the UK as a whole to the tune of £7.2 billion – or nearly £1,500 for every person in Scotland.”
-----------------------------------------
Well that should seal the deal for many!
Problem is the Scottish MSM and BBC etc will just bury it ,and continue with the lies about us being subsidy junkies.
#
2012-02-12 20:47
Jo Swinson - hang your head in shame. You are as bad as the rest of your feeble party. A party with such lofty claims of social principals sells out at the first taste of power. I'm glad your party was tested in this way because the damage will be limited to 5 years - you will now join the Tories as a party never to be trusted in Scotland.
#
2012-02-12 23:07
Jo Lamont/Graham was happy to receive votes from the Labour Youth wing-- (15-17 years)
in fairness they may only have 2 members --Douglas and Wendy Alexander---(sorry I take that back in fairness to 15-17 yrs olds)
in fairness they may only have 2 members --Douglas and Wendy Alexander---(sorry I take that back in fairness to 15-17 yrs olds)
#
2012-02-13 00:22
CEBR confirm Scotland stands on own financial feet and exposes subsidy junkie myth.
I won't hold my breath to see coverage of this on Johnston Press or by the BBC to-morrow.
I won't hold my breath to see coverage of this on Johnston Press or by the BBC to-morrow.
#
2012-02-13 00:26
Quoting jafurn:
I believe so, yes. It's just that the S.N.P. doesn't get to sort out the rules for elections.
Ooh, and it's Labour Party policy too, isn't it? From their 2010 manifesto:
"... We will let the
people decide how to reform
our institutions and our politics:
changing the voting system and
electing a second chamber to
replace the House of Lords. But
we will go further, introducing
fixed-term parliaments, banning
MPs from paid second jobs
that pose a conflict of interest,
and providing for a free vote
in Parliament to widen the
franchise to 16 and 17 year olds."
www2.labour.org.uk/.../... page ):5
How very odd. Perhaps they have forgotten.
...
I may be wrong about this but is that not SNP policy as well? ...
I believe so, yes. It's just that the S.N.P. doesn't get to sort out the rules for elections.
Ooh, and it's Labour Party policy too, isn't it? From their 2010 manifesto:
"... We will let the
people decide how to reform
our institutions and our politics:
changing the voting system and
electing a second chamber to
replace the House of Lords. But
we will go further, introducing
fixed-term parliaments, banning
MPs from paid second jobs
that pose a conflict of interest,
and providing for a free vote
in Parliament to widen the
franchise to 16 and 17 year olds."
www2.labour.org.uk/.../... page ):5
How very odd. Perhaps they have forgotten.
#
2012-02-13 00:31
They have suggested a free vote - but not promised that any Labour MP would actually vote for it.
#
2012-02-13 00:42
I think they are still too busy with thier root and branch review to remember what they said. However experience suggests that if the SNP proposes or supports something that they actually on paper support, we tend to find that the Labour knee jerk reaction is to foam at the mouth and tell us all that it would be end of the world extinction event to implement it!
#
2012-02-13 00:38
O/T Guys sorry, but i have a wee question,can people read your posts on liebour hame, while there waiting to be modded?.
#
2012-02-13 02:46
the wallace
“ O/T Guys sorry, but i have a wee question,can people read your posts on liebour hame, while there waiting to be modded?. “
In my opinion I don’t think they can. Even though, to you the poster, it appears on the comments list until it has been modded out.
“ O/T Guys sorry, but i have a wee question,can people read your posts on liebour hame, while there waiting to be modded?. “
In my opinion I don’t think they can. Even though, to you the poster, it appears on the comments list until it has been modded out.
#
2012-02-13 00:46
A bit OT but have people seen this blog by Prof. Paul Cairney at Aberdeen:
paulcairney.blogspot.com/
and followed the Devolution Monitoring Programme?
ucl.ac.uk/.../...
only up to 2009.
paulcairney.blogspot.com/
and followed the Devolution Monitoring Programme?
ucl.ac.uk/.../...
only up to 2009.
#
2012-02-13 01:05
I use it as a sleeping pill Marga! The Cairney stuff that is! I pity his students!
#
2012-02-13 01:20
But then you clearly haven't read Cairney - or you may simply dislike academic analysis.
Fortunately, most students do like academic analysis - which is why they become students.
Clearly you didn't read this from Cairney after Cameron's interventions -
"When asked on academic panels, and I have to be more polite and sound more intelligent, I say 'I really don't think that independence will have a significant effect on our daily lives'. Yet, now, I DO care - and, if the vote was tomorrow, I would vote 'yes'."
Fortunately, most students do like academic analysis - which is why they become students.
Clearly you didn't read this from Cairney after Cameron's interventions -
"When asked on academic panels, and I have to be more polite and sound more intelligent, I say 'I really don't think that independence will have a significant effect on our daily lives'. Yet, now, I DO care - and, if the vote was tomorrow, I would vote 'yes'."
#
2012-02-13 01:30
I am not a fan of academic analysis. Blame Curtice for that, I had to sit through many of his lectures once upon a time. I classed his as a form of cruel and unusual punishment for ever daring to take Politics as one of my courses all those years ago.
#
2012-02-13 02:17
It was interesting that it mentioned 'Devolution Max' in relation to the Calman Commission and here I keep getting tod that Devo Max wasan SNP invention to confuse people
[Page 14]
ucl.ac.uk/.../scotland09.pdf
[Page 14]
ucl.ac.uk/.../scotland09.pdf
#
2012-02-13 00:55
SNP IN CHAOS--ACCORDING TO LIBERALS
Couldn't help but laugh at this guff from the liberals
glasgowlibdems.org.uk/.../...
Couldn't help but laugh at this guff from the liberals
glasgowlibdems.org.uk/.../...
#
2012-02-13 01:05
O/T but I noticed this article on CH4 News website:
channel4.com/.../...
Apparently Mr Cameron is going to call a 'summit' about racism in football following the non-handshake at the Liverpool game.
channel4.com/.../...
Apparently Mr Cameron is going to call a 'summit' about racism in football following the non-handshake at the Liverpool game.
#
2012-02-13 03:25
O/T
I see Denis Canavan's announcement that he will campaign for independence has been almost totally ignored.
I see Denis Canavan's announcement that he will campaign for independence has been almost totally ignored.
#
2012-02-13 13:23
I'm sure I heard him say he would take a role if asked
If I'm right it's time someone asked in my opinion He is well regarded
If I'm right it's time someone asked in my opinion He is well regarded
#
2012-02-13 17:08
Although Dennis Canavan supported his local SNP candidate in 2011, I have not found a more recent news item that says he would back independence.
#
2012-02-13 17:28
In the STV short interview he did during the piece on the Stirling University exhibition he seemed to clearly say he would be part of a campaign for independence if invited.
#
2012-02-13 18:13
farrochie
The conversation I am thinking of took place about a week ago and I am as sure as I can be that what I posted above is what he said
The conversation I am thinking of took place about a week ago and I am as sure as I can be that what I posted above is what he said
#
2012-02-13 16:23
Michael Moore--Typical Lib/Con/Lab politicalspeak. How NOT to answer a question directly.
Asked by BBC TV outside St.Andrews House,following his meeting with First Minister re votes for 16-17 yrs BEING LIB/DEM POLICY he said(I paraphrase)"The franchise should be the same as for the Scottish Election last year."
I ask a simple question----WHY?
Nice political sidestep Mr Moore----doesn't convince anyone.
Let our young,old,and inbetweens decide Scotland's future.
Asked by BBC TV outside St.Andrews House,following his meeting with First Minister re votes for 16-17 yrs BEING LIB/DEM POLICY he said(I paraphrase)"The franchise should be the same as for the Scottish Election last year."
I ask a simple question----WHY?
Nice political sidestep Mr Moore----doesn't convince anyone.
Let our young,old,and inbetweens decide Scotland's future.
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