Monday, 13 February 2012 05:21
102 Comments
By a Newsnet reporter
Following David Mundell's BBC interview on yesterday's Politics Show in which he added to the mounting confusion within the coalition by refusing to agree that Scotland would be given more powers following a no vote, the SNP have welcomed growing agreement on the Autumn 2014 referendum timetable.
Mr Mundell was questioned on the programme about a suggestion by Liberal Democrat Secretary of State for Scotland Michael Moore that the UK government would agree to grant greater financial powers for Holyrood if voters in Scotland voted against independence.
Mr Mundell replied: "It's quite clear that different parties will go forward with different proposals."
Conservative Prime Minister David Cameron recently ruled out additional financial powers for Scotland within the UK, maintaining that a single tax and benefits system was the "heart" of a single country. During the recent leadership campaign for the Scottish Conservatives, Ruth Davidson described the provisions of the discredited Scotland Bill as a "line in the sand" which would not be crossed.
However the SNP has welcomed the growing agreement within the anti-independnce parties that they will accede to the Scottish Government's planned timing of the independence referendum. In today's Mail on Sunday sources close to No10 were reported as saying that David Cameron is likely to accept the referendum date.
The report also states Mr Cameron doesn't like the proposed question. The Mail on Sunday quotes the same sources as saying that the Prime Minister wants "something which is fairer than what is currently on the table".
This directly contradicts the view of Scottish Tory Leader Ruth Davidson who described the referendum question as "a fair and decisive legal question, which I welcome."
And to add to the incoherent stance of the UK coalition, Mr Mundell, in his interview with the Sunday Politics Show, didn't disagree with Ms Davidson on the question being fair.
Stewart Maxwell, SNP MSP for West Scotland and member of the Scotland Bill Committee, said:
"The UK coalition is in total disarray. There is no coherence to their positions – particularly on what powers they think Scotland should have.
"The Scottish Government achieved an overwhelming mandate from the people of Scotland to hold the independence referendum in the second half of this parliamentary term and that is exactly what we will do.
"It is encouraging to hear Mr Cameron recognising this mandate and agreeing the Autumn 2014 date for the referendum.
"However the same report also highlights the divergent views between the Tory party north and south of the border.
"Sources in London are calling for a different question while Scottish Tory leader Ruth Davidson has already publicly stated that it is a 'fair, legal and decisive question' and Scotland's only Tory MP supports this view. At very least Cameron's respect agenda should extend to his party's own Scottish leader and only Tory MP.
"Scotland's referendum belongs to the people of Scotland whose views are currently being sought in the Your Scotland, Your Referendum consultation.
"Only yesterday seven constitutional academics voiced their opinion that the Scottish Parliament has the authority to stage an independence referendum under its existing powers.
"Sovereignty lies with the people of Scotland and it is time for the anti-independence parties to put these democratic rights at the top of their priorities."
Comments
#
2012-02-13 08:34
Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?
Can't say fairer than that!
Cameron and Co need to STFU and let the Scottish government get down to setting the referendum up for 2014 as they were democratically mandated to do.
They then need to come forward with the much vaunted "positive case for the union"...
Mundell's line that "It's quite clear that different parties will go forward with different proposals." highlights quite clearly that if we are offered anything by one Westminster party, it will be blocked by the others.
Nothing short of an act of Westminster granting defined additional powers in the event of a No vote can be trusted... and even then...
Can't say fairer than that!
Cameron and Co need to STFU and let the Scottish government get down to setting the referendum up for 2014 as they were democratically mandated to do.
They then need to come forward with the much vaunted "positive case for the union"...
Mundell's line that "It's quite clear that different parties will go forward with different proposals." highlights quite clearly that if we are offered anything by one Westminster party, it will be blocked by the others.
Nothing short of an act of Westminster granting defined additional powers in the event of a No vote can be trusted... and even then...
#
2012-02-13 11:22
The powers would have to be actually implemented in advance of the referendum IMO. Otherwise the promises mean absolutely nothing.
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2012-02-13 08:43
Well that's cleared everything up nicely. Cameron says no new powers, Moore says we might have a look at that. Davidson says fair question, Cameron says no its no. Moore and Lamont say we like the idea of voting for 16-17yr olds just no noo and Cameron says not bleedin likely at all. Moore says, I believe in home rule, Cameron says no while yer workin' fer me.
And Mundell says, I know my place.
And Mundell says, I know my place.
#
2012-02-13 09:12
:D
Moore and Mundell - the LibDem is more Tory than the Tory - I'm getting confused.
Moore and Mundell - the LibDem is more Tory than the Tory - I'm getting confused.
#
2012-02-13 09:40
Maybe if we give Mundell some toast and marmalade he'll come over tae oor side. He looks so very lost and lonely on that platform. :D
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2012-02-13 11:09
I doubt that toast and marmalade would be enough to turn a tory. A libdem, on the other hand....
#
2012-02-13 11:11
No thanks Macart! I for one would not want him coming over to the SNP... he's toxic to say the least. He is doing much more for our point of view being a Tory. He is lost and lonely as you say, but it was his choice so leave him there where he belongs. OK?
#
2012-02-13 11:23
Quoting clootie:
No confusion. Tony's NuLabour move across the political spectrum into the right of the Tories after they attemted to move a bit to the left to capture middle England. However, the LibDems beat the Tories to it and left the Tories stranded. Then Labour tried to edge slightly leftward again but found that the other two were struggling for that position. Broons Labour were squeezed out so now all three are sitting together in that natural tory place on the political spectrum as the Red/yellow/blue Tory rainbow alliance
:D
Moore and Mundell - the LibDem is more Tory than the Tory - I'm getting confused.
No confusion. Tony's NuLabour move across the political spectrum into the right of the Tories after they attemted to move a bit to the left to capture middle England. However, the LibDems beat the Tories to it and left the Tories stranded. Then Labour tried to edge slightly leftward again but found that the other two were struggling for that position. Broons Labour were squeezed out so now all three are sitting together in that natural tory place on the political spectrum as the Red/yellow/blue Tory rainbow alliance
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2012-02-13 11:16
Quoting Macart:
A bit like the Two Ronnies sketch.
"I look down on him because I'm upper class and he's middle class".
Very well spotted.
And Mundell says, I know my place.
A bit like the Two Ronnies sketch.
"I look down on him because I'm upper class and he's middle class".
Very well spotted.
#
2012-02-13 08:51
Westminster is to set up a Kangaroo Committee of Unionists to hold an enquiry into Defence implications and costs of Independence .
No doubt using Civil Servants and costing taxpayers a lot of money to ask one sided questions and have a predictable outcome?
No doubt using Civil Servants and costing taxpayers a lot of money to ask one sided questions and have a predictable outcome?
#
2012-02-13 09:25
When they say Defence, they mean attack.
Where were our Defence forces when we suffered terrorist attacks?
Of course, launching Cruise missiles from submarines into the heart of Baghdad in a self proclaimed campaign of 'Shock and Awe' could never be described as terrorist.
Using depleted uranium missiles in Iraq and leaving behind a legacy of cancer and birth defects could never be described as terrorist.
Having nuclear submarines and missiles which can render whole cities uninhabitable could never be described as terrorist.
What a hideous government that we have in Westminster that even consider designing, never mind using these tools of war.
The sooner we are free to make our own decisions about these matters the better.
Where were our Defence forces when we suffered terrorist attacks?
Of course, launching Cruise missiles from submarines into the heart of Baghdad in a self proclaimed campaign of 'Shock and Awe' could never be described as terrorist.
Using depleted uranium missiles in Iraq and leaving behind a legacy of cancer and birth defects could never be described as terrorist.
Having nuclear submarines and missiles which can render whole cities uninhabitable could never be described as terrorist.
What a hideous government that we have in Westminster that even consider designing, never mind using these tools of war.
The sooner we are free to make our own decisions about these matters the better.
#
2012-02-13 11:32
All good grist to the mill and ammo for when the SNP take the matter to the Council Of Europe. The Wastemonster is really stuck between a hard place and anither hard place. It is inti-democratic to have a State Broadcaster spewing propaganda, the Central Government taking the place of an English parliament while the other three countries have devolution dictated to by that central government/English parliament. Especially when they now do not have a mandate from the Scottish peoiple with only a lone Tory and eleven LibDems while they return a majority Government at Holyrood. Europe or the UN would laugh them out of court.
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2012-02-13 13:36
Quoting Auld Bob:
You mean they are stuck between a Jock and a hard place?
The Wastemonster is really stuck between a hard place and anither hard place.
You mean they are stuck between a Jock and a hard place?
#
2012-02-13 14:06
Quoting Holebender:
Maybe a Joke and a hard place.
Quoting Auld Bob:The Wastemonster is really stuck between a hard place and anither hard place.
You mean they are stuck between a Jock and a hard place?
Maybe a Joke and a hard place.
#
2012-02-13 09:04
You know, the wheels are already coming off the unionist cause. For years they have been proudly asserting they will make a 'positive case for the union', and yet now, we start to see the feeble response that "actually, it is up to the pro independence people to make a positive case for independence". The reality of course, is that logically both sides should be making their case for their point of view on the matter, but one side has no legitimate argument to make.
Now, we see that between Tory and Libdem there is disagreement. The Libdems are promising 'Jam tomorrow', if we all vote no, whereas the Tories are promising nothing, and have no argument for OR against the union, relying instead on pretendy 'consitutional laws', or pseudo legal 'technicalities' instead. So when The First Minister of Scotland meets Michael Moore, who allegedly works for the London Government, will he hear a different story to that which he will hear from David Cameron later in the week??
Alex Salmond has made it clear there will be no 'strings attached', to be allowed from London. Sadly, the political commentators think this is a 'negotiating position', which Salmond will compromise. They are wrong. As has been made clear, by numerous sources, including the following highly esteemed group of legal academics;
ukconstitutionallaw.org/.../...
Gavin Anderson, Senior Lecturer, University of Glasgow
Christine Bell, Professor of Constitutional Law, University of Edinburgh
Sarah Craig, Lecturer, University of Glasgow
Aileen McHarg, Senior Lecturer in Public Law, University of Glasgow
Tom Mullen, Professor of Law, University of Glasgow
Stephen Tierney, Professor of Constitutional Theory, University of Edinburgh
Neil Walker, Regius Professor of Public Law and the Law of Nature and Nations, University of Edinburgh
On top of this, and to quote one of the responses to the above article;
"All this before considering the right to self determination which is core to the UN Treaty of Human Rights of which the UK is a signator, the Helsinki Accord and the Treaty of Vienna all which drive a coach and horses through the position taken by the UK Parliament at Westminster’s legal position."
Their is no good reason for the Scottish parliament NOT to legislate for a referendum and run it. Authority does not need to come from London, Westminster, the Tories or the Libdems.
It is not a negotiating position. Mr. Salmond does not need to negotiate. I do believe his meeting with David Cameron will be short.
Then we come to Labour. Poor old Ed Miliband has been sold a dud by 'call me dave'. How wrong footed must Labour feel this morning. We see the Libdems pursuing a different policy from the Tories with whom they are in Government. Yet, for some bizarre reason, despite NOT being in coalition with the Tories, Labour are slavishly adhering to the line taken by David Cameron. My only question would be why?
Perhaps somebody in the Labour party can explain.
Now, we see that between Tory and Libdem there is disagreement. The Libdems are promising 'Jam tomorrow', if we all vote no, whereas the Tories are promising nothing, and have no argument for OR against the union, relying instead on pretendy 'consitutional laws', or pseudo legal 'technicalities' instead. So when The First Minister of Scotland meets Michael Moore, who allegedly works for the London Government, will he hear a different story to that which he will hear from David Cameron later in the week??
Alex Salmond has made it clear there will be no 'strings attached', to be allowed from London. Sadly, the political commentators think this is a 'negotiating position', which Salmond will compromise. They are wrong. As has been made clear, by numerous sources, including the following highly esteemed group of legal academics;
ukconstitutionallaw.org/.../...
Gavin Anderson, Senior Lecturer, University of Glasgow
Christine Bell, Professor of Constitutional Law, University of Edinburgh
Sarah Craig, Lecturer, University of Glasgow
Aileen McHarg, Senior Lecturer in Public Law, University of Glasgow
Tom Mullen, Professor of Law, University of Glasgow
Stephen Tierney, Professor of Constitutional Theory, University of Edinburgh
Neil Walker, Regius Professor of Public Law and the Law of Nature and Nations, University of Edinburgh
On top of this, and to quote one of the responses to the above article;
"All this before considering the right to self determination which is core to the UN Treaty of Human Rights of which the UK is a signator, the Helsinki Accord and the Treaty of Vienna all which drive a coach and horses through the position taken by the UK Parliament at Westminster’s legal position."
Their is no good reason for the Scottish parliament NOT to legislate for a referendum and run it. Authority does not need to come from London, Westminster, the Tories or the Libdems.
It is not a negotiating position. Mr. Salmond does not need to negotiate. I do believe his meeting with David Cameron will be short.
Then we come to Labour. Poor old Ed Miliband has been sold a dud by 'call me dave'. How wrong footed must Labour feel this morning. We see the Libdems pursuing a different policy from the Tories with whom they are in Government. Yet, for some bizarre reason, despite NOT being in coalition with the Tories, Labour are slavishly adhering to the line taken by David Cameron. My only question would be why?
Perhaps somebody in the Labour party can explain.
#
2012-02-13 13:00
Perhaps they are going to go into coalition after the next UK elections to keep UKIP and the BNP out of government.
#
2012-02-13 13:42
Quoting Robert Louis:
...and long may their stupidity continue! Just imagine how many voters they will persuade with that stance while the yes campaign gets on with putting forward positive arguments for independence.
For years they have been proudly asserting they will make a 'positive case for the union', and yet now, we start to see the feeble response that "actually, it is up to the pro independence people to make a positive case for independence".
...and long may their stupidity continue! Just imagine how many voters they will persuade with that stance while the yes campaign gets on with putting forward positive arguments for independence.
#
2012-02-13 09:47
Only slightly OT, did anyone notice a nice wee bombshell in the Times yesterday on the quashing of the subsidy junkie myth? I'd love to see NNS do a take on that. Must admit to grinning all day.
Bdum, dum, dum
Another one bites the dust! :D
Bdum, dum, dum
Another one bites the dust! :D
#
2012-02-13 22:42
Unfortunately, the detail of the report isn't available. We don't know whether all of the taxes paid by companies registered in London are being counted as revenue raised by London, when it might have been raised elsewhere.
So, at minimum, Scotland isn't subsidised by England. The more important question is by how much Scotland subsidises London and the SE of England.
So, at minimum, Scotland isn't subsidised by England. The more important question is by how much Scotland subsidises London and the SE of England.
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2012-02-13 22:54
From a poster on Torygraph: cebr.com/.../...
How money in some regions subsidises others: www.cebr.com/?p=788
How money in some regions subsidises others: www.cebr.com/?p=788
#
2012-02-13 23:22
Thanks. However, I am never willing to accept "top line" figures unless I can see how they have been arrived at.
#
2012-02-13 10:00
Well put Robert. The reason the labour party are in bed with the tories is they all want to keep jam.
#
2012-02-13 10:11
It was a truely pathetic performance by Mundell on Politics Scotland yesterday and Isobel Fraser let him off lightly.
There has been no doubt that Ruth Davidson said that there would be no further concessions to Scotland's autonomy, but Mundell was not taken to task over it. In fact he claimed she said something completely different. Lying ***!
There has been no doubt that Ruth Davidson said that there would be no further concessions to Scotland's autonomy, but Mundell was not taken to task over it. In fact he claimed she said something completely different. Lying ***!
#
2012-02-13 10:31
To be fair to Isobel Fraser - she asked him the same question twice - but the slippery toad kept up the pre-programed mantra that RD did'n't say that - even though Issy Fraser pointed out it was a matter of record at Holyrood!
Remember Paxman's 17 times repeated question to Michael Howard and question the veracity inclination of these torags.
I was insulted by Mundell's responses - he's paid by you and I to contribute to democracy not to lie and lie.
Remember Paxman's 17 times repeated question to Michael Howard and question the veracity inclination of these torags.
I was insulted by Mundell's responses - he's paid by you and I to contribute to democracy not to lie and lie.
#
2012-02-13 10:21
Cameron would like something much fairer, like: "Do you agree that Scotland should separate from the United Kingdom causing great separation and untold suffering to the separate Scotland forced into separation by those evil separatists?" ;-)
#
2012-02-13 10:34
Yes, something clear cut and easily understood by dummies who refuse to hear no evil, see no evil and spout plenty of evil!
#
2012-02-13 10:49
the tory's have stated in westminster and holyrood there will be no more extra powers ever.
there lies the problem with devo max our nation would be reliant on westminster "giving" us full devo max the other issue is ask 10 people what devo max means to them and you will get at least 11 answers. Sid
there lies the problem with devo max our nation would be reliant on westminster "giving" us full devo max the other issue is ask 10 people what devo max means to them and you will get at least 11 answers. Sid
#
2012-02-13 10:55
Plus the parties that might offer devo max are unlikely to be in a position to deliver it any time soon (and would probably change their minds if they ever were in power)
#
2012-02-13 13:55
Sid:
I'm sorry, but devo-max, FFA or whatever is NOT Westminster's gift.
Any people has an undeniable right to self determination, especially a people such as the Scots who co-exist only under treaty arrangements.
Now, if Scots do vote devo-max or some variant, it is then up to Westminster to accept or reject, ideally in a set, short, timeframe.
Accept and a modified union continues. Refuse and it's independence anyway.
Cameron is stated to be determined he will not be the last prime minister of the UK -that's actually wrong as the UK will continue - but I'd put good odds on the fact that Cameron will accept almost any devo-max solution proposed.
He just doesn't want to be in that position, so he's trying to get the question of the table.
I'm sorry, but devo-max, FFA or whatever is NOT Westminster's gift.
Any people has an undeniable right to self determination, especially a people such as the Scots who co-exist only under treaty arrangements.
Now, if Scots do vote devo-max or some variant, it is then up to Westminster to accept or reject, ideally in a set, short, timeframe.
Accept and a modified union continues. Refuse and it's independence anyway.
Cameron is stated to be determined he will not be the last prime minister of the UK -that's actually wrong as the UK will continue - but I'd put good odds on the fact that Cameron will accept almost any devo-max solution proposed.
He just doesn't want to be in that position, so he's trying to get the question of the table.
#
2012-02-13 11:05
The SNP need to make more of this. It took 25 years of stalling and rigging the 79 refarendum for us to eventually get a Scottish parliament. We cant wait another 25 years for westminster to deliver what Scots want and the only way now is to vote for independence . Now is the time for Scotland to use all its resources to benefit the whole country and lift us out of the mess that 50 years of labour dominance has created. No more Tories running things in Scotland.ONE VOTE, END LONDON RULE.
#
2012-02-13 11:35
Now folks wee Mundy did promise we would get control of airgun regulation
That's a sure fire winner Great extra powers for the Parliament Cann't wait!
That's a sure fire winner Great extra powers for the Parliament Cann't wait!
#
2012-02-13 15:07
"...control of airgun regulation"
What a bonus! It is laughable that he could say that. However he is only there for his entertainment value. He's a clown!
The airgun problem could have been resolved years ago, but the home secretary chose to stamp on it (BTW, look where she is now).
What a bonus! It is laughable that he could say that. However he is only there for his entertainment value. He's a clown!
The airgun problem could have been resolved years ago, but the home secretary chose to stamp on it (BTW, look where she is now).
#
2012-02-13 11:34
Who will represent England regarding the repeal of the treaty of union? Obviously it can't be Cameron as he is required to represent the UK entity.
#
2012-02-13 11:43
Cameron to snub Salmond when visiting Scotland.( ref article on front today's Scotsman )
David Cameron has ruled out any discussion on the Independence debate when he visits Alex Salmond when visiting Scotland this week. Preferring to leave it all to hapless michael Moore.
So insult or fear? I think fear, he does not have concrete answers to anything really just fear and bully boy tactics against the Scots. During the last week much has came out that shows the SNP have been truthful and astute in their assumptions and policy issues. ( too much to list here )
Cameron has no answers as the questions have already been answered by others in Scotlands favour.
David Cameron has ruled out any discussion on the Independence debate when he visits Alex Salmond when visiting Scotland this week. Preferring to leave it all to hapless michael Moore.
So insult or fear? I think fear, he does not have concrete answers to anything really just fear and bully boy tactics against the Scots. During the last week much has came out that shows the SNP have been truthful and astute in their assumptions and policy issues. ( too much to list here )
Cameron has no answers as the questions have already been answered by others in Scotlands favour.
#
2012-02-13 13:56
Yes, well the laughingly titled ' Scotsman' would say that wouldn't they. The point is, there really is nothing to negotiate. The Scottish Government as per its democratic mandate intends running a referendum on Scottish independence.
If however, David Cameron wishes to make it easier, that would be good, but it isn't something I think Alex Salmond will waste much time over.
As for the Cameron/Moore thing, let's be clear, it's just all part of the spin coming from Westminster. Ignore it, as I am sure Alex Salmond will.
If David Cameron doesn't want to talk, so be it. The referendum will go ahead as planned.
If however, David Cameron wishes to make it easier, that would be good, but it isn't something I think Alex Salmond will waste much time over.
As for the Cameron/Moore thing, let's be clear, it's just all part of the spin coming from Westminster. Ignore it, as I am sure Alex Salmond will.
If David Cameron doesn't want to talk, so be it. The referendum will go ahead as planned.
#
2012-02-13 15:10
The word 'snub' was the usual Scotsman distortion.
Tomorrow it will be reported as some kind of victory for Cameron.
Tomorrow it will be reported as some kind of victory for Cameron.
#
2012-02-13 11:54
Note this morning in the papers that there is now to be a committee on the impact of Independence on the Defence Structure of the UK or rUK if it is yes to Independence.
Committee will be headed by a Tory with the usual Unionist panel " to look in depth at the defence issues involved." No SNP representative to be on this committee but they will call anyone they want to appear. Sounds more like Putin's Russia than the UK, but that is how low the Unionists have fallen.
How's about a real Scottish committee to tackle the cause and effect on Scotland of the McCrone report, if they can, then surely we can!
Committee will be headed by a Tory with the usual Unionist panel " to look in depth at the defence issues involved." No SNP representative to be on this committee but they will call anyone they want to appear. Sounds more like Putin's Russia than the UK, but that is how low the Unionists have fallen.
How's about a real Scottish committee to tackle the cause and effect on Scotland of the McCrone report, if they can, then surely we can!
#
2012-02-13 15:14
If the SNP are called they will be treated with the usual contempt, which will equate to more yes votes for independence.
#
2012-02-13 12:11
It needs someone the average little middle Englander can trust and respect. I suggest Bruce Forsyth.
#
2012-02-13 12:13
Have a heart, he is the "Last of the Mohicans", and doubtless sees his fancy lifestyle threatened by this independence business. A whole lot of domestic budgets will be severely pruned following a positive result.
The Lamont household also will be looking at May Day with some trepidation this year.
The Lamont household also will be looking at May Day with some trepidation this year.
#
2012-02-13 12:20
Lets get rid of all the shilly shallying and misrepresentati on by asking the one question in the following way.
In 1707 Scotland signed a Treay of Union with England. Do you now believe that this Treaty should be revoked forthwith?
YES/NO
In 1707 Scotland signed a Treay of Union with England. Do you now believe that this Treaty should be revoked forthwith?
YES/NO
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2012-02-13 12:37
Come, come cardrossian - you forget that Scots in the main have not been educated enough to even know about the 1707 Treaty of Union. That, in a nutshell's why we're wanting to change our lives for now and for future generations.
We're now too stupid and too wee because were too stupid.
Too bad it didn't work!
Thanks to the sublimation tactics of mother England - were not supposed to know "which way is up"!
Too bad for Mother England - its all coming home to roost!
We're now too stupid and too wee because were too stupid.
Too bad it didn't work!
Thanks to the sublimation tactics of mother England - were not supposed to know "which way is up"!
Too bad for Mother England - its all coming home to roost!
#
2012-02-14 00:31
That's where I'm glad I took Standard grade history at school. Learning about 1707 was the one thing that solidified my views on independence. I already feel excited about 2014, till the day I can finally vote YES!
#
2012-02-13 12:55
""Following David Mundell's BBC interview on yesterday's Politics Show in which he added to the mounting confusion within the coalition by refusing to agree that Scotland would be given more powers following a no vote""
This guy STILL doesn't get it.
We have our own 'powers' - bought and paid for. Imperious hand-outs we do not need.
It would be far more productive for the Unionists to apply their fear peddlars minds to what they are going to have to do with their nuclear WMD in the very near future.
This guy STILL doesn't get it.
We have our own 'powers' - bought and paid for. Imperious hand-outs we do not need.
It would be far more productive for the Unionists to apply their fear peddlars minds to what they are going to have to do with their nuclear WMD in the very near future.
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2012-02-13 12:56
Hi, new poster, have been lurking for a few weeks now.sorry for going O/T on my 1st post but.... I have always supported Independence for Scotland, purely because it is just right,in my mind anyway, however no matter how inspired and excited about that prospect I get when reading articles and comments on NNS I can't but help wonder if it will ever happen. All these great articles and comments are good but are preaching to the already converted. How can we get the undecideds and even the Unionists who are so because they believe the perpetual lies coming form Westminster?
It is my greatest fear that the nation will bottle it come Autumn 2014 when all the facts and evidence suggest that would be the worst possible outcome for the future of Scotland. Are we going to get an overall YES vote? I know nobody can be sure but are you guys confident?
It is my greatest fear that the nation will bottle it come Autumn 2014 when all the facts and evidence suggest that would be the worst possible outcome for the future of Scotland. Are we going to get an overall YES vote? I know nobody can be sure but are you guys confident?
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2012-02-13 13:26
Hi Mully and welcome,
My response to that would be that in the unlikely event that all the evidence in 2014 shows that independence would be the worst possible outcome for Scotland then a No vote, sadly, would be right.
But that's not going to happen! To me it's becoming clearer by the day that we will be much much better off - financially, psychologically , morally, every which way! - and I think that more and more people are recognising that. The scaremongering and the personal attcks from Westminster and the media are irrelevant - they didn't work in the last elections and they won't work this time.
I believe it will be Yes. Stick around!
My response to that would be that in the unlikely event that all the evidence in 2014 shows that independence would be the worst possible outcome for Scotland then a No vote, sadly, would be right.
But that's not going to happen! To me it's becoming clearer by the day that we will be much much better off - financially, psychologically , morally, every which way! - and I think that more and more people are recognising that. The scaremongering and the personal attcks from Westminster and the media are irrelevant - they didn't work in the last elections and they won't work this time.
I believe it will be Yes. Stick around!
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2012-02-13 13:59
Thanks for the welcome NTWOS
I think you've misunderstood my last paragraph, or I hve not made it too clear. I meant that the facts and evidence shows that a NO vote would be the worst possible outcome. All the evidnece suggests an Independent Scotland would be the way to go but the electorate will either bottle it or still be fooled by the Westminster propoganda machine.
My worry is that in the face of all the facts there are still too many people not going to have the gumption to follow through and vote YES.
I think you've misunderstood my last paragraph, or I hve not made it too clear. I meant that the facts and evidence shows that a NO vote would be the worst possible outcome. All the evidnece suggests an Independent Scotland would be the way to go but the electorate will either bottle it or still be fooled by the Westminster propoganda machine.
My worry is that in the face of all the facts there are still too many people not going to have the gumption to follow through and vote YES.
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2012-02-13 14:01
I'm having bother posting just now but if I get this one through, we are all working away in places other than newsnetscotland . Many are party card carrying members anf doing things like letterbox leaflet stuffing.
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2012-02-13 14:05
Mully:
There's a solid 30% for indy. Estimtae 25% will crawl to a poll.
Add another 30% who like/toy with the idea but bite on the scare tacticts.
Figure turnout around 70%
If each indy supporter gets just one waverer to show at the polls the result will be close to the 75/25 in the '97 referendum.
Also consider in '97 that polls typically showed around 10% shy of the actual vote.
Pols right now show 50/50, following the '97 result that'd be closer to an actual 60/40 for.
Suggest you check Scottish Skier's stuff for better/deeper info.
It is, by all present appearances, a referendum the Union will need to work very hard to win as it's forcing budget cuts and austerity.
There's a solid 30% for indy. Estimtae 25% will crawl to a poll.
Add another 30% who like/toy with the idea but bite on the scare tacticts.
Figure turnout around 70%
If each indy supporter gets just one waverer to show at the polls the result will be close to the 75/25 in the '97 referendum.
Also consider in '97 that polls typically showed around 10% shy of the actual vote.
Pols right now show 50/50, following the '97 result that'd be closer to an actual 60/40 for.
Suggest you check Scottish Skier's stuff for better/deeper info.
It is, by all present appearances, a referendum the Union will need to work very hard to win as it's forcing budget cuts and austerity.
#
2012-02-13 14:48
Mully - while regular posters on these threads are completely up for independence they are but a thin veneer of over 70,000 unique ID's who visited this site in the last month (an unique ID is the internet equivalent of a newspaper sale).
#
2012-02-13 13:11
I do think that endangered species should be protected from public gaze. It would be better for the Mundell breed of Tory to lay low in Galloway. Out of sight - out of mind.
#
2012-02-13 19:36
Oi! - The Dumfries and Stewartry end is responsible for Mundell's Election - Galloway has a tradition of returning SNP MSP's ... you could find yersl in a Wickerman for comments like that :-D
#
2012-02-13 13:22
Re. the image at the top. Moore is saying to Mundell, "Right, Davey, do you see that cliff up there? Well I want you to run up there and..."
#
2012-02-13 14:39
Quoting TB:
I'll try again -
He is pointing up and sayong, "Oh! Look Davey, a whole flight if pigs up there".
Davey is saying, (through clenched teeth), "Just ignote them and they'll maybe go away".
Re. the image at the top. Moore is saying to Mundell, "Right, Davey, do you see that cliff up there? Well I want you to run up there and..."
I'll try again -
He is pointing up and sayong, "Oh! Look Davey, a whole flight if pigs up there".
Davey is saying, (through clenched teeth), "Just ignote them and they'll maybe go away".
#
2012-02-13 13:41
There will be no UK entity if Scotland end the Treaty. It is not The English Parliament. Obviously they think that it Is the English Parliament and the rest of us exist at their sat so and behest. Piont is they are wrong ant the wording of the Treaty proves them wrong.
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2012-02-13 14:12
Interesting comment from someone called xsticks in the Scotsman.
Quoting xsticks scotsman:
Quoting xsticks scotsman:
Perhaps Mr Salmond should send Mr Moore "to coventry". After all, he appears to have "gone native"
#
2012-02-13 14:54
Between him and the Holyrood Tory contingent, you almost feel sorry for Cameron. The Ruth lass has not thus far covered herself with glory either.
At FMQs her performance (to mix two memorable metaphorical descriptors) has been 'like Jimmie Krankie on acid'.
She needs to be told by Cameron to 'calm down dear, it's only a disaster'.
Perhaps he should suggest she switches from Kung Fu to I Chi.
At FMQs her performance (to mix two memorable metaphorical descriptors) has been 'like Jimmie Krankie on acid'.
She needs to be told by Cameron to 'calm down dear, it's only a disaster'.
Perhaps he should suggest she switches from Kung Fu to I Chi.
#
2012-02-13 15:18
"She needs to be told by Cameron to 'calm down..."
No chance. It's obvious that they don't talk.
No chance. It's obvious that they don't talk.
#
2012-02-13 17:32
And elsewhere, mentioning no blogs associated with Great Tangerine Jellies in particular, both her and Johann have been described as "stunning", "precise", "humorous", "searching","exemplary", "surgically dissecting the so-called First Minister" and "almost as good as Iain Grey".
#
2012-02-13 22:25
Quoting chicmac:
Doesn't she have a black belt in origami ?
Between him and the Holyrood Tory contingent, you almost feel sorry for Cameron. The Ruth lass has not thus far covered herself with glory either. At FMQs her performance (to mix two memorable metaphorical descriptors) has been 'like Jimmie Krankie on acid'. She needs to be told by Cameron to 'calm down dear, it's only a disaster'.
Perhaps he should suggest she switches from Kung Fu to I Chi.
Doesn't she have a black belt in origami ?
#
2012-02-13 22:45
Wasn't that Brian Taylor? He who has seen imaginary comments written in invisible ink on blank bits of paper waved around by Ian Gray?
#
2012-02-13 17:17
At this stage in the proceedings, perhaps Alec might suggest that if Cameron has anything useful to discuss well "You know where I live"
#
2012-02-13 17:17
Alex just tell the unionists that they will have no say what so ever, in our referendum that is for our people to decide alone.
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2012-02-13 17:24
I discovered this site a couple of months ago and this is my first post. I will confess right now that although I have always supported independence for Scotland I have always voted Lib Dem until last year(we all make mistakes!). I think it is under estimated how many people support independence even if they don't vote SNP.
I am positive more and more people will see through the lies and negativity from Westminster and I have developed a new hobby of complaining to the BBC on a regular basis on their biased reporting.
I am positive more and more people will see through the lies and negativity from Westminster and I have developed a new hobby of complaining to the BBC on a regular basis on their biased reporting.
#
2012-02-13 17:35
Quoting I Say Yes:
Welcome to NNS. If you don't mind, and are happy to tell us, what was it made you move away from the Libdems??
Was it their attitude to Independence, and their abandonment of their 'federal' policy, or was it related to events such as tuition fees in London??
I discovered this site a couple of months ago and this is my first post. I will confess right now that although I have always supported independence for Scotland I have always voted Lib Dem until last year(we all make mistakes!). I think it is under estimated how many people support independence even if they don't vote SNP.
I am positive more and more people will see through the lies and negativity from Westminster and I have developed a new hobby of complaining to the BBC on a regular basis on their biased reporting.
Welcome to NNS. If you don't mind, and are happy to tell us, what was it made you move away from the Libdems??
Was it their attitude to Independence, and their abandonment of their 'federal' policy, or was it related to events such as tuition fees in London??
#
2012-02-13 17:50
LibDems were strong in my area and a vote for them kept the Tories out (whom I despise). I was appalled when they joined forces with the Tories and they are now complicit in enabling everything I am against being voted through in Westminster. I will never vote for them again as long as I live.
Although I did not agree with their attitude to Indepedence I could live with that and just vote yes anyway.
Good news is that SNP won here last May so a lot of my neighbours feel the same way.
Although I did not agree with their attitude to Indepedence I could live with that and just vote yes anyway.
Good news is that SNP won here last May so a lot of my neighbours feel the same way.
#
2012-02-13 18:31
would just like to say a big HELLO to everyone,I am one of the 70,000 visitors mentioned earlier aka mad jok mcmad..and yes i have been floating about on the peripherals for a couple of months now...I have been voteing for the snp for a number of years now,and like a lot of other newbies decided to sign up as a member after camerons intervention...and then i found newsnet,what a revelation...just want to say thank you..P
#
2012-02-14 16:19
Gannymede- A warm welcome to you! It’s a great site, - I hope you spread the word. :o)
#
2012-02-13 20:01
The first question to be asked of Mr Moore should be
Can you decide yes or no on the substantial matters regarding the referendum. If Yes then I see no problem with talking to him If No then what is the point in talking to him when the decisions will be made by someone else.
After all if you were applying for a job you wouldn't discuss your CV with the receptionist.
Can you decide yes or no on the substantial matters regarding the referendum. If Yes then I see no problem with talking to him If No then what is the point in talking to him when the decisions will be made by someone else.
After all if you were applying for a job you wouldn't discuss your CV with the receptionist.
#
2012-02-13 20:36
Similarly, as with monkeys and organ-grinders, there's little point in AS meeting with Moore or Mundell.
#
2012-02-14 02:18
Welcome to all these new posters.
Hope you, like me, enjoy the threads and get an education in a variety of ways.
Hope you, like me, enjoy the threads and get an education in a variety of ways.
#
2012-02-13 20:55
In the interests of monitoring the BBC's "balance and impartiality", Ric Bailey might be interested in this short analysis of the report on BBC Scotland's website on the subject of the FM's meeting with Moore.
No. of words which relate to Moore: 145
No. of words which relate to AS: 58
No. of words which relate to Johann Lamont, who was of course not at the meeting: 107
Balanced?? Impartial?????????????
No. of words which relate to Moore: 145
No. of words which relate to AS: 58
No. of words which relate to Johann Lamont, who was of course not at the meeting: 107
Balanced?? Impartial?????????????
#
2012-02-13 21:03
What do they say about empty vessels making the most sound
The one with knowledge said the least
The one with knowledge said the least
#
2012-02-13 23:55
He should
We never tire of telling him, but to get your snout in the trough I suppose you can put up with a lot,anyhow who else would employ him?
Anyone hear anything of his little election financial difficulty It seems to have quietly disappeared off the radar
We never tire of telling him, but to get your snout in the trough I suppose you can put up with a lot,anyhow who else would employ him?
Anyone hear anything of his little election financial difficulty It seems to have quietly disappeared off the radar
#
2012-02-14 01:28
O/T At a branch meeting tonight, apparently there are in excess of 2000 new members of the SNP since January 7th. :-)
#
2012-02-14 01:48
Yep! Of course, the Tories have managed to collect 1,000 new members since Ruthie became leader at the beginning of November.
I'm sure that they are delighted to have doubled their membership!
I'm sure that they are delighted to have doubled their membership!
#
2012-02-14 02:24
Unfortunately, as the average age of a Tory party member is 93, 1,100 have died since November. And it hasn't even been that cold.
#
2012-02-14 02:39
And since they apparently raised all those extra members by their existing geriatrics being sent two membership forms and getting their pals to sign up, perhaps even their new members didn't survive long enough to actually be able to vote.
#
2012-02-14 04:03
Quoting oldnat:
Maybe so, Oldnat - at least you didn't have any unnecessary apostrophe's (more than can be said for many on here!).
I do apologise for that split infinitive. Obviously time I was in my bed.
Maybe so, Oldnat - at least you didn't have any unnecessary apostrophe's (more than can be said for many on here!).
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