Friday, 17 February 2012 07:19
450 Comments
By G.A.Ponsonby 
UK Prime Minister David Cameron has conceded that Scotland is capable of surviving if the Scottish people vote Yes in the 2014 independence referendum.
Mr Cameron made the admission as he arrived in Scotland for referendum talks with First Minister Alex Salmond.
In a change of tone from the confrontational approach that has pockmarked the debate in recent weeks, Mr Cameron said he hoped with his heart and soul that Scots would vote against independence.
“My argument is very simple, I’m not saying that Scotland couldn’t make it on her own, of course Scotland could, just as England could but I dearly hope that this doesn’t happen.” he said before adding:
“I come here today with one simple message, I hope and wish that Scotland will vote to remain part of the United Kingdom”
In what is the first major concession since the standoff between Edinburgh and London began over a month ago, the Tory leader suggested that more powers could be transferred to Scotland if Scots voted against independence.
The apparent U turn follows recent comments from Downing Street that indicated there would be no further powers devolved beyond those contained in the controversial Scotland Bill. It will also be seen as a snub to Scottish Tory leader Ruth Davidson who recently insisted that the current proposals contained in the Scotland Bill were “a line in the sand”.
Responding, the SNP welcomed the acknowledgement from the Prime Minister that Scottish independence was viable but urged him to define what the proposed new powers would be.
First Minister Alex Salmond welcomed the change in tone from Mr Cameron but claimed comments from the UK PM regarding the G7 or a seat on the United Nations Security Council would not help persuade those facing cuts to their disability payments or young people who were currently unemployed
Mr Salmond said: “Politics need to be about people, about people’s chances and we’re arguing the case for Scottish independence on the basis of the benefits it will have for the people of Scotland.”
Referring to the vague suggestion of extra powers if Scots rejected independence Mr Salmond said: “If the Prime Minister has an offer to make to the people of Scotland then he should make it now so that we can have a clear debate and a clear decision on the alternative futures for Scotland.
“This idea of saying - well vote no and we’ll give you something later – I don’t think is going to convince anyone in Scotland.”
Mr Salmond added: “I think that the Prime Minister, as a new tactic just adopted this morning, is on very, very shaky ground if he believes people in Scotland will be fooled again.”
The meeting ended with Mr Salmond claiming that only one issue now remained outstanding as far as the referendum was concerned, the number of questions on the ballot.
Mr Cameron described the talks with the First Minister as “frustrating”.
Commenting on the statements from Mr Cameron, Professor John Curtice of Strathclyde University described them as a defensive vision of the Union that, he suggested, might not appeal to Scots.
Accusing the Tory PM of lacking a clear vision of a Scotland post referendum, Professor Curtice insisted the Unionist campaign needed to define what extra powers were on offer.
He said: “I think in truth if the unionist camp is going to argue that indeed a No vote does not mean that … Scotland couldn’t have more devolution, indeed could pave the way for more devolution, they are going to have to lay out some idea of what that further devolution is going to be.
“Not through some debate that takes place after the referendum but beforehand because if they fail to do so the danger is that those people … who want a more powerful Holyrood, will say ‘well hang on, if there isn’t really any real offer there that I can see, maybe I should vote for independence anyway’”
The offer of unspecified powers is similar to promises made to Scots before the Home Rule referendum in 1979. However, despite campaign promises of more if the Yes campaign failed, UK PM Margaret Thatcher then threw out all plans for a devolved Scottish parliament when the Yes campaign succumbed to the notorious 40 per cent rule.
Today’s visit by Mr Cameron coincided with news that bookmakers William Hill had slashed the odds against Scotland becoming independent in 2014 from 3/1 to 5/2.
Comments
#
2012-02-16 21:46
Alex has called Cameron’s bluff.
Cameron will now have to put his cards on the table to show what he’s got, otherwise it will just look like he is holding a busted flush.
Cameron will now have to put his cards on the table to show what he’s got, otherwise it will just look like he is holding a busted flush.
#
2012-02-16 21:57
Why doesn't he just give us the extra powers now and that can then be the status quo going into the referendum? Unless, of course, he doesn't really mean it?
#
2012-02-18 00:02
Hi All,
I'm new here, but have been reading in the background and I suppose a lurker.
Basically this article tells me of the story of the 3 little pigs...
Meaning, Scotland's people, Scottish Government, First Minister....and how they fought to protect from the big bad 'Wolf'.....
Well, no more huff n puff until I blow your house down, cause it ain't gonna happen....not this time..
I'm new here, but have been reading in the background and I suppose a lurker.
Basically this article tells me of the story of the 3 little pigs...
Meaning, Scotland's people, Scottish Government, First Minister....and how they fought to protect from the big bad 'Wolf'.....
Well, no more huff n puff until I blow your house down, cause it ain't gonna happen....not this time..
#
2012-02-16 21:46
He's not the only one who cannot define a positive alternative to independence.
They will need to do better than a seat at the UN Security Council and a very large defence budget.
Stronger together weaker apart....hahaha
They will need to do better than a seat at the UN Security Council and a very large defence budget.
Stronger together weaker apart....hahaha
#
2012-02-16 21:54
For some reason I've had
The Who's Won't get fooled again
stuck in ma heid all day..
The Who's Won't get fooled again
stuck in ma heid all day..
#
2012-02-17 02:47
megsmaw
“ For some reason I've had
The Who's Won't get fooled again
stuck in ma heid all day.. “
Aye megswa, For sometime now I have had Dave Davies’s “Death of a clown” (Kinks) stuck in ma heid.
I can certainly drink tae that.
But seriously would you, or anybody else, buy another car from this snake-oil salesman, especially considering the last one they duped us into buying.
“ For some reason I've had
The Who's Won't get fooled again
stuck in ma heid all day.. “
Aye megswa, For sometime now I have had Dave Davies’s “Death of a clown” (Kinks) stuck in ma heid.
I can certainly drink tae that.
But seriously would you, or anybody else, buy another car from this snake-oil salesman, especially considering the last one they duped us into buying.
#
2012-02-17 11:31
For me as a Bob Dylan fan at first it was "The times they are a changin'" and now it is "Things have changed"
#
2012-02-17 12:29
Quoting jim288:
I prefer 'Sundown on the Union.
For me as a Bob Dylan fan at first it was "The times they are a changin'" and now it is "Things have changed"
I prefer 'Sundown on the Union.
#
2012-02-17 17:12
Quoting jafurn:
Have a listen to Bliiy Bragg's "Take Down The Union Jack."
Quoting jim288:For me as a Bob Dylan fan at first it was "The times they are a changin'" and now it is "Things have changed"
I prefer 'Sundown on the Union.
Have a listen to Bliiy Bragg's "Take Down The Union Jack."
#
2012-02-17 11:37
Don't think we were fooled in 1979 by Douglas Hume, difficult to fol the dead. I think though that this time cards need to be on the table, they are not dealing with the Labour Party in this.
#
2012-02-16 21:57
It is time that some legit body took the media to task over their bias reporting, where the unionists en-mass get more air time than the Nats.
For example J.Lamont was outside where Alex was meeting Cameron, available for interview although she was not party to the discussions - on all stations -BBC, SKY, ITV. As was W.Rennie. Were they there pre-arranged, they were not there to report on proceedings as they were outside the building during the meeting. They were repeating all the old stuff to score political points.
It was obviously a set up,but can no body stop this stuff, are there no rules.
For example J.Lamont was outside where Alex was meeting Cameron, available for interview although she was not party to the discussions - on all stations -BBC, SKY, ITV. As was W.Rennie. Were they there pre-arranged, they were not there to report on proceedings as they were outside the building during the meeting. They were repeating all the old stuff to score political points.
It was obviously a set up,but can no body stop this stuff, are there no rules.
#
2012-02-16 22:22
I witnessed Lamont,s interview on Sky News
believe me she was terrible.
When asked if she would vote no to independence would she also fully back the union without caveats.
Lamont responded by looking clueless,screwi ng her face up and retorting "wit dae ye mean".
The interviewer was trying hard not to laugh at her.
Seems her understanding of the English language is limited.
Without a script she is worse than useless.
believe me she was terrible.
When asked if she would vote no to independence would she also fully back the union without caveats.
Lamont responded by looking clueless,screwi ng her face up and retorting "wit dae ye mean".
The interviewer was trying hard not to laugh at her.
Seems her understanding of the English language is limited.
Without a script she is worse than useless.
#
2012-02-17 13:31
Harry, any one who has watched Lamont yesterday and on FMQ's can only come to one conclusion.
With a script ........useless!
Without a script......worse than useless! as mentioned by robbie.
With a script ........useless!
Without a script......worse than useless! as mentioned by robbie.
#
2012-02-18 07:46
Well the problem with that is her script always seems to start with the line "My problem with David Cameron isn't that he's English". It's starting to sound a wee bit "The lady doth protest too much, me thinks".
#
2012-02-19 01:08
mmars. It seems to me that Labour have this "alternate" universe approach to electing their leaders in Scotland.
Johann Lamont..... Allegedly an English Teacher.
Iain Grey..... Allegedly a Maths and Physics teacher.
Is it me or do Labour think by electing a "Teacher" makes their leadership and party policies seems acceptable?
Johann Lamont..... Allegedly an English Teacher.
Iain Grey..... Allegedly a Maths and Physics teacher.
Is it me or do Labour think by electing a "Teacher" makes their leadership and party policies seems acceptable?
#
2012-02-16 22:01
I did see the interview with the editor of the "Unionist Times" aka the Scotsman.
I was surprised indeed to hear was faint praise for Salmond as very good politician, but not only that, he also said Scotland could go it alone, adding "easily".
Nearly choked on my coffee!
Hedging bets maybe?
I was surprised indeed to hear was faint praise for Salmond as very good politician, but not only that, he also said Scotland could go it alone, adding "easily".
Nearly choked on my coffee!
Hedging bets maybe?
#
2012-02-16 22:03
I liked the 'safer together' which translates as "in the event of a first strike it's the West of Scotland which is vapourised, much, much safer for London"
In any case if the vote was no, does anyone in their right mind think that a grateful Westminster would give more powers?
In any case if the vote was no, does anyone in their right mind think that a grateful Westminster would give more powers?
#
2012-02-17 11:40
Well Fungus, I certainly think we are in for one terrible time if we vote no and I think this must be articulated during the campaign.
#
2012-02-16 22:09
Careful placement of electoral maps here by the FM's team in the meeting in St Andrews House today.
www.flickr.com/.../photostream
www.flickr.com/.../photostream
#
2012-02-17 00:10
They should try the SI's map, which illustrates the winner in each constituency if you count the list vote instead of the constituency vote.
vetpath.co.uk/.../...
Warning. You may need sunglasses.
vetpath.co.uk/.../...
Warning. You may need sunglasses.
#
2012-02-17 11:35
I also liked the body language when Cameron came in. Salmond standing there absolutely solid and confident, Cameron short bow of the head and looking subservient as they shook hands.
#
2012-02-16 22:10
As has been stated here previously,if they are serious about giving the Scottish Parliament increased taxation powers then now is the time to do it and the mechanism would be an amendment to the Scotland Bill currently before them.
Failure to do so will indicate to the Scottish people that they have no intention of ever doing so and that the only way to get FFA plus is through independence.
With their track record on devolution of powers to Scotland,no one is going to believe a promise of possible future powers provided we turn down the opportunity of so acquiring in a referendum.
They will also regret their current insistence on only a single question being put to the people.
Failure to do so will indicate to the Scottish people that they have no intention of ever doing so and that the only way to get FFA plus is through independence.
With their track record on devolution of powers to Scotland,no one is going to believe a promise of possible future powers provided we turn down the opportunity of so acquiring in a referendum.
They will also regret their current insistence on only a single question being put to the people.
#
2012-02-17 11:42
Well Tony and Co. thought the second question on taxation would dissuade the #Scots from Devolution, and how did that go.
#
2012-02-16 22:13
I have not seen a quote from Cameron stating that Scotland would not be capable of surviving if we became independent.
As this is the basis of the article, can we get a reference?
As this is the basis of the article, can we get a reference?
#
2012-02-16 22:23
Quoting gfaetheblock:
He said it this morning in front of millions on the telly seemed to be near the Forth Bridge.
I have not seen a quote from Cameron stating that Scotland would not be capable of surviving if we became independent.
As this is the basis of the article, can we get a reference?
He said it this morning in front of millions on the telly seemed to be near the Forth Bridge.
#
2012-02-16 22:32
Yep, i have seen him say that we would be capabale of surviving. i was asking for a reference to where he said we would not be capable of surviving.
#
2012-02-16 23:14
can't find any at the moment. But I'm sure they've been said. Here's one of Osborne only a few days ago. He uses language such as 'would scotland have been able to get out of the financial crisis if it was alone?' although he's not saying straight out we wouldn't. It's heavily implied and this was only a couple of days ago. There stance was more forward in the past and have said the economy could end up like Greece or Ireland etc. Sure someone else will have some good clips/quotes for you.
bit.ly/zviICB
bit.ly/zviICB
#
2012-02-17 08:22
Quoting D_A_N:
I'd have framed the question "would Scotland have been in financial crisis if it was alone?".
There you go - perspective!
can't find any at the moment. But I'm sure they've been said. Here's one of Osborne only a few days ago. He uses language such as 'would scotland have been able to get out of the financial crisis if it was alone?' although he's not saying straight out we wouldn't.
bit.ly/zviICB
I'd have framed the question "would Scotland have been in financial crisis if it was alone?".
There you go - perspective!
#
2012-02-16 23:42
Its a general unionist mantra from the last twenty years. It was still being said last year in the media however.
#
2012-02-16 23:52
So Cameron has never said that we are not capable?
The article implies that he has and it is a U-turn, but this appears not to be case.
The article implies that he has and it is a U-turn, but this appears not to be case.
#
2012-02-17 00:20
Actually mate. If you read the article properly it states that the u-turn is that he said he will consider extra powers for Scotland. Whereas only a week or 2 ago he said he would not.
#
2012-02-17 01:18
Quoting gfaetheblock:
If you are prepared to look in Hansard, you will find in answer to a very serious question by Angus Robertson about the RAFs contraction in Scotland, Cameron sneered."If the honourable gentleman's party has it's way you will be flying by the seat of your pants."
So we are either to gather from that answer that he uses his time when he is questioned in front of the nation to crack wee silly sneery schoolboy jokes at the expense of the Scots. Or that he was giving a serious answer. Either way it was condescending disrespectful and downright disgraceful behaviour from a UK PM. The implication was there and the hooting and jeering and jabbering that accompanies Scottish Questions in Westminster confirms it.
So Cameron has never said that we are not capable?
The article implies that he has and it is a U-turn, but this appears not to be case.
If you are prepared to look in Hansard, you will find in answer to a very serious question by Angus Robertson about the RAFs contraction in Scotland, Cameron sneered."If the honourable gentleman's party has it's way you will be flying by the seat of your pants."
So we are either to gather from that answer that he uses his time when he is questioned in front of the nation to crack wee silly sneery schoolboy jokes at the expense of the Scots. Or that he was giving a serious answer. Either way it was condescending disrespectful and downright disgraceful behaviour from a UK PM. The implication was there and the hooting and jeering and jabbering that accompanies Scottish Questions in Westminster confirms it.
#
2012-02-17 01:34
Quoting gfaetheblock:
As DonaldMhor says -
www.youtube.com/.../
So Cameron has never said that we are not capable?
The article implies that he has and it is a U-turn, but this appears not to be case.
As DonaldMhor says -
www.youtube.com/.../
#
2012-02-17 19:57
To my scratcher!
Don't think me a Cameron apologist, more a pedant.
I think the Unionist message is that Scotland is unproven alone. This will sow seeds of doubt that are hard to disprove.
The SNP 'arc of prosperity' is too easy to reference and let the voters judge the implication of what has panned out over the last 4 years.
Don't think me a Cameron apologist, more a pedant.
I think the Unionist message is that Scotland is unproven alone. This will sow seeds of doubt that are hard to disprove.
The SNP 'arc of prosperity' is too easy to reference and let the voters judge the implication of what has panned out over the last 4 years.
#
2012-02-18 00:38
Just watched that clip.
We can't believe a word the David Cameron says. He has no intention of considering further powers. He might not even be in government in the future so how can he even promise that.
I understand there is the Scotland Bill, but given the inteference of the unelected house of lords, any further powers will turn out to be no power and control at all. Plus they will be able to take it away at anytime.
We can't believe a word the David Cameron says. He has no intention of considering further powers. He might not even be in government in the future so how can he even promise that.
I understand there is the Scotland Bill, but given the inteference of the unelected house of lords, any further powers will turn out to be no power and control at all. Plus they will be able to take it away at anytime.
#
2012-02-17 00:03
Quoting gfaetheblock:
Hi GF
misread your question right enough.
Call me Dave may not have uttered those precise words but plenty on his team certainly have been describing Scotland as a basket case for many years now. If he was party to that then he must be equally guilty don't you agree?
If you fly with the craws you get shot with the craws.
His reference to Scotland 'flying by the seat of our pants' in the context in which he said it was pretty close without nailing it down precisely.
You could however cut the contributor some slack through poetic license if you were minded.
Yep, i have seen him say that we would be capabale of surviving. i was asking for a reference to where he said we would not be capable of surviving.
Hi GF
misread your question right enough.
Call me Dave may not have uttered those precise words but plenty on his team certainly have been describing Scotland as a basket case for many years now. If he was party to that then he must be equally guilty don't you agree?
If you fly with the craws you get shot with the craws.
His reference to Scotland 'flying by the seat of our pants' in the context in which he said it was pretty close without nailing it down precisely.
You could however cut the contributor some slack through poetic license if you were minded.
#
2012-02-16 22:13
I don't really care if David Cameron's response is somewhat friendlier than more recent ones, or that there may be some additional powers under devolution. I don't even blame Cameron. In my polically aware lifetime I blame Thatcher, I blame Major, I blame Blair and I blame Brown. I would also add in Kinnock and Smith for their failure in opposition. I blame every labour MP elected in Scotland who has told us the lies they will defend our interests, they will stand up for the poor, they will end poverty blah blah blah.
I'm afraid we are, or I, am too far down the road now. What don't people get, control of speed limits and air guns is not what we want. We want to change our country and make it what we all want it to be. This is not about not liking the english, not liking the queen or even not liking labour, libdems and the torries. This is about saving our country and turning it into a social democratic country. We might not achieve that any time soon but if indepenedent we will at least hold the politicians, with all the levers, to account. They will answer to us and not London and the South East. This is about a last chance to start again, if we don't take it now our country will continue it's slow death until those of us who care are long gone and whats left is apathy. Thats maybe our greatest danger, the apapthy that people feel, the apathy I sometimes feel and the helplessness that this unfair United kingdom has reared in me. We have a chance, the SNP and all of us who voted for them have given us a chance, I will pray that we take this last chance.
The days of Labour self-preservation and personal party ambition at the expence of us all has to end, the days of allowing a small part of england decide our government has to end, let england decide it's own government, and the days of us allowing ourselves to be lied to by politicians and kept down because it suits those with the influence has to end. Alex Salmond and funnily enough Pete Townsend are correct, let's not get fooled again.
I'm afraid we are, or I, am too far down the road now. What don't people get, control of speed limits and air guns is not what we want. We want to change our country and make it what we all want it to be. This is not about not liking the english, not liking the queen or even not liking labour, libdems and the torries. This is about saving our country and turning it into a social democratic country. We might not achieve that any time soon but if indepenedent we will at least hold the politicians, with all the levers, to account. They will answer to us and not London and the South East. This is about a last chance to start again, if we don't take it now our country will continue it's slow death until those of us who care are long gone and whats left is apathy. Thats maybe our greatest danger, the apapthy that people feel, the apathy I sometimes feel and the helplessness that this unfair United kingdom has reared in me. We have a chance, the SNP and all of us who voted for them have given us a chance, I will pray that we take this last chance.
The days of Labour self-preservation and personal party ambition at the expence of us all has to end, the days of allowing a small part of england decide our government has to end, let england decide it's own government, and the days of us allowing ourselves to be lied to by politicians and kept down because it suits those with the influence has to end. Alex Salmond and funnily enough Pete Townsend are correct, let's not get fooled again.
#
2012-02-16 22:13
Yes David that is the date and that is the question and speaking of teenagers.......
O/T. Poor wee Ruth, she liked the question but David did not.
She said no more powers and David said well, yes, maybe.
Does M. Moore get "playing second fiddle" lessons
from Nick Clegg ?
O/T. Poor wee Ruth, she liked the question but David did not.
She said no more powers and David said well, yes, maybe.
Does M. Moore get "playing second fiddle" lessons
from Nick Clegg ?
#
2012-02-17 01:31
I noticed that the BBC cut out Salmond's handshake with Moore. At first it looked as though Salmond had blanked him, but he took Cameron forward to introduce him to someone else then came back to shake Moore's hand. It was all quite clear on the STV version. I just wondered if it was deliberate BBC Scotland editing.
Newsnicht - apologising for the bad recording of Cameron's speech. Every other news outlet had it perfect. The BBC Scotland evening news seemed very agressive in its tone, both for its reports on the Cameron visit and on the Rangers saga. The main BBC news was much more moderate when reporting the Cameron visit.
BBC Scotland - not fit for purpose again.
Newsnicht - apologising for the bad recording of Cameron's speech. Every other news outlet had it perfect. The BBC Scotland evening news seemed very agressive in its tone, both for its reports on the Cameron visit and on the Rangers saga. The main BBC news was much more moderate when reporting the Cameron visit.
BBC Scotland - not fit for purpose again.
#
2012-02-17 05:41
I felt it was a bit better than normal and looked as if it was trying to be careful but with angry undertones as it's what they are used to.
#
2012-02-17 07:41
Quoting J Wil:
BBC World News is just as bad. I'm overseas & it's the Africa version I see where I am. I can also access Sky News. Sky News had a story on the meeting between AS & DC and an interview with James Dornan (SNP MSP) and some chap in Wiltshire from the Taxpayer's Alliance Scotland. Dornan held his own but the other chap was a bit more eloquent.
BBC World News had a video of a cyclist being run-down by a bus in Bristol: "extraordinary scene" and an "extraordinary story" of a dog-owner from Dedham, Essex who crawled onto frozen river-ice to save his dog, Bentley.
A few Africans around me were affy concerned at my swearing at the TV & I'll no doubt get slapped on the wrist for teaching them bad-english words!
I noticed that the BBC cut out Salmond's handshake with Moore. At first it looked as though Salmond had blamked him, but he took Cameron forward to introduce him to someone else then came back to shake Moore's hand. It was all quite clear on the STV version. I just wondered if it was deliberate BBC Scotland editing.
Newsnicht - apologising for the bad recording of Cameron's speech. Every other news outlet had it perfect. The BBC Scotland evening news seemed very agressive in its tone, both for its reports on the Cameron visit and on the Rangers saga. The main BBC news was much more moderate when reporting the Cameron visit.
BBC Scotland - not fit for purpose again.
BBC World News is just as bad. I'm overseas & it's the Africa version I see where I am. I can also access Sky News. Sky News had a story on the meeting between AS & DC and an interview with James Dornan (SNP MSP) and some chap in Wiltshire from the Taxpayer's Alliance Scotland. Dornan held his own but the other chap was a bit more eloquent.
BBC World News had a video of a cyclist being run-down by a bus in Bristol: "extraordinary scene" and an "extraordinary story" of a dog-owner from Dedham, Essex who crawled onto frozen river-ice to save his dog, Bentley.
A few Africans around me were affy concerned at my swearing at the TV & I'll no doubt get slapped on the wrist for teaching them bad-english words!
#
2012-02-17 11:48
Actually none of their broadcasting seems fit for purpose these days, breakfast television cannot seem to operate an outside broadcast in their own backyard. Might be better paying their presenters less and buying better equipment, or at least paying their tech staff better.
#
2012-02-18 00:43
Without a doubt, the BBC bias is a problem. I wonder if we can investigate them once we are indepenedent. None of the these people should ever be allowed to broadcast again in Scotland.
#
2012-02-16 22:15
It's fast becoming a bit of a cliche with the whole "Jam tomorrow" thing. However, a no vote in 2014 means the only jam we'll be getting served up Cameron's dangleberry jam which I certainly dont have the stomach for!
Yes in 2014!!!!!
Yes in 2014!!!!!
#
2012-02-16 22:16
The fith largest defence buget in the world ? not a thing we should be proud off. I'd rather have Schools Hospitals and good infrastructure rather than bombs and bullits.Being an ex soldier I do realise we need a defence force may I sugest one more in keeping with our population.
#
2012-02-16 22:47
The fith largest defence buget in the world ?
The only reason we have the fifth largest defence budget cj is because we keep getting dragged into illegal wars and other wars of "ancient" colonialism.
Just a pity this budget has allegedly never really caught up with the equipment requirements of our service personnel though.
The only reason we have the fifth largest defence budget cj is because we keep getting dragged into illegal wars and other wars of "ancient" colonialism.
Just a pity this budget has allegedly never really caught up with the equipment requirements of our service personnel though.
#
2012-02-17 00:11
Quoting cjmjr:
Scotland could have a defence force based largely on TA lines. Plenty of men and women trained for defence if ever needed but also to assist the civil powers at times of emergency, flooding etc.
.Being an ex soldier I do realise we need a defence force may I sugest one more in keeping with our population.[quote name="cjmjr"]
Scotland could have a defence force based largely on TA lines. Plenty of men and women trained for defence if ever needed but also to assist the civil powers at times of emergency, flooding etc.
#
2012-02-17 04:13
Quoting Des58:
Thankyou, I've been thinking the same thing. I would be the last person to sign up to the British army, but as I see it in the extremely unlikely event that Scotland were ever to be invaded I would certainly fight. So if we had an army that was based on TA type lines and a guarantee that you'd never be dragged into a foreign war, only required to fight to defend Scottish soil then I'd be first in line, I've always thought our army is an incredible resource, a load of fit, highly trained people. They could be put to fantastic use right here, search and rescue and a disaster relief, even environmental projects, think how many trees a few hundred soldiers could plant. Or if you set army engineers to developing renewables.
Sorry for the ramble, just think a small, not-involved-in-wars-of-aggression useful army would be a very progressive step.
[quote name="cjmjr"].Being an ex soldier I do realise we need a defence force may I sugest one more in keeping with our population.Quoting cjmjr:
Scotland could have a defence force based largely on TA lines. Plenty of men and women trained for defence if ever needed but also to assist the civil powers at times of emergency, flooding etc.
Thankyou, I've been thinking the same thing. I would be the last person to sign up to the British army, but as I see it in the extremely unlikely event that Scotland were ever to be invaded I would certainly fight. So if we had an army that was based on TA type lines and a guarantee that you'd never be dragged into a foreign war, only required to fight to defend Scottish soil then I'd be first in line, I've always thought our army is an incredible resource, a load of fit, highly trained people. They could be put to fantastic use right here, search and rescue and a disaster relief, even environmental projects, think how many trees a few hundred soldiers could plant. Or if you set army engineers to developing renewables.
Sorry for the ramble, just think a small, not-involved-in-wars-of-aggression useful army would be a very progressive step.
#
2012-02-17 09:33
I agree.
Where were our 'defence' forces when we were under 'terrorist' attack?
I think that the army could do a lot more civilian work than erecting a wooden bridge every now and then.
Where were our 'defence' forces when we were under 'terrorist' attack?
I think that the army could do a lot more civilian work than erecting a wooden bridge every now and then.
#
2012-02-16 22:25
They can offer or give every power they hold then a few months down the line we get Foulkes and co sitting in the HoL dismantling the whole set up It is happening at present with their toxic Scotland Bill Mind you they are going to give powers to legislate on air rifles
Beware of tories bearing gifts
Beware of tories bearing gifts
#
2012-02-16 22:53
Dear old Foulkes and co are already gearing up for more changes to the "Scotland Bill".
In 1998 dear old Tony Blair gifted to Scotland 666,000 square miles of Antarctica. This resulted in Scotland having sovereign rights over all oil,gas and mineral rights within this region. Thanks Tone, you weren't all bad after all!
www.scottishtimes.org/.../
Now that this news has become public knowledge dear old Foulkes and co. want this control reverted back to "British" control and so yet another, YAWN!amendment is to be added to the Scotland Bill.
In 1998 dear old Tony Blair gifted to Scotland 666,000 square miles of Antarctica. This resulted in Scotland having sovereign rights over all oil,gas and mineral rights within this region. Thanks Tone, you weren't all bad after all!
www.scottishtimes.org/.../
Now that this news has become public knowledge dear old Foulkes and co. want this control reverted back to "British" control and so yet another, YAWN!amendment is to be added to the Scotland Bill.
#
2012-02-17 00:47
Quoting Arbroath1320:
The Scotland Bill can be rejected by the Scottish parliament.
Now that this news has become public knowledge dear old Foulkes and co. want this control reverted back to "British" control and so yet another, YAWN!amendment is to be added to the Scotland Bill.
The Scotland Bill can be rejected by the Scottish parliament.
#
2012-02-17 14:22
Actually that isn't true. Under the Scotland Act Westminster can force any legislation or overrule the parliament.
They wouldn't try and force something on Scotland though would they.... Or the bill can sit and wait on unionist parties gaining a majority in the future I take it.
They wouldn't try and force something on Scotland though would they.... Or the bill can sit and wait on unionist parties gaining a majority in the future I take it.
#
2012-02-17 17:40
Islegard, I am quite sure if Wastemonster tried to force a "rejected" Scotland Bill onto Scotland there would be absolute HELL to pay.
If they think they are having problems with Scotland and our government just now lets see how they feel after Holyrood rejects the Scotland Bill and they force it upon us. Immaterial of any future Independence Referendum I wouldn't give much for their chances of winning a NO vote after that.
If they think they are having problems with Scotland and our government just now lets see how they feel after Holyrood rejects the Scotland Bill and they force it upon us. Immaterial of any future Independence Referendum I wouldn't give much for their chances of winning a NO vote after that.
#
2012-02-17 17:47
Well Arbroath you would think that would be the case. They are trying to force issues on us regarding the referendum that would appear to contravene the UN and various treaties. Also thay are continuing unabated with the Bill. You would think they would realise itis a waste of time and abandon it.
One thing concerns me is Camerons comments yesterday on him delivering greater devolution with the Scotland Bill. This needs to be countered by the SNP. When the Scottish Parliament votes against this they are going to portray the SNP as having blocked more powers. The message needs to get out there about this Bill that it strips powers from the Parliament and begins to dismantle devolution.
One thing concerns me is Camerons comments yesterday on him delivering greater devolution with the Scotland Bill. This needs to be countered by the SNP. When the Scottish Parliament votes against this they are going to portray the SNP as having blocked more powers. The message needs to get out there about this Bill that it strips powers from the Parliament and begins to dismantle devolution.
#
2012-02-16 22:36
Apologies if this has been posted already but I have only just seen it.
Mr. Salmond at the LSE ...
scotreferendum.com/.../...
Mr. Salmond at the LSE ...
scotreferendum.com/.../...
#
2012-02-16 22:43
Well that's the real negotiations started by the two poitical leaders with the real power in both Westminster and Holyrood. Moore, Davidson and Mundell all put back in their boxes, and the unionist supporting Lamont and Rennie completely ignored as irrelevant - well, by everyone that is, except the BBC.
The only one who tried to put a spanner in the works with a typically bitter interview prior to the talks, was that toxic little toady Forsyth. He hadn't even the good grace to agree with Cameron's assessment of Alex Salmond as "a formidable politician". I'm glad I had my milk safely in the fridge, as his face would have turned it sour!
The only one who tried to put a spanner in the works with a typically bitter interview prior to the talks, was that toxic little toady Forsyth. He hadn't even the good grace to agree with Cameron's assessment of Alex Salmond as "a formidable politician". I'm glad I had my milk safely in the fridge, as his face would have turned it sour!
#
2012-02-16 22:57
Prof. Curtice has called it right.Cameron,by saying what he did,by accident or design,must now come forward with clear and guaranteed "devo-max" proposals before the referendum vote in 2014.To fail do so will result in the majority of "devo-max" supporters voting Yes for independence.
#
2012-02-16 23:09
Quoting neoloon:
Jeez ! Curtice not being nasty or sarcastic about independence ?
I guess he must have seen that the bookies have now dropped the odds today after Cameron's visit down to 5/2 from 3/1
Prof. Curtice has called it right.Cameron,by saying what he did,by accident or design,must now come forward with clear and guaranteed "devo-max" proposals before the referendum vote in 2014.To fail do so will result in the majority of "devo-max" supporters voting Yes for independence.
Jeez ! Curtice not being nasty or sarcastic about independence ?
I guess he must have seen that the bookies have now dropped the odds today after Cameron's visit down to 5/2 from 3/1
#
2012-02-18 00:46
Curtis annoys me, very boring however I think he is biased against SNP and independence. Probably why he gets on BBC weekly.
#
2012-02-16 22:58
Today’s visit by Mr Cameron coincided with news that bookmakers William Hill had slashed the odds against Scotland becoming independent in 2014 from 3/1 to 5/2.
We should not get carried away with this. This is a shortening of odds, but surely can't be described as "slashed".
We should not get carried away with this. This is a shortening of odds, but surely can't be described as "slashed".
#
2012-02-16 23:06
I posted this on another site:
Scotland 'stronger, safer, richer and fairer' as part of UK
Why do we need to be stronger? Stronger how, Militarily, Socially, Economically?
The UK has the seventh largest Economy in the world but spends the fourth most on the military. Why do we need to spend so much more on the military than countries that are more prosperous than us.
Scotland needs only to have a Defence force to defend our borders, we need not go galavanting over the globe on militaristic adventures at the behest of the Americans for nothing more than resources under the guise of democracy.
We have the UK's entire nuclear deterrent located next to our Largest population centre (Glasgow) and as such it is prime target number 1 for any nuclear attack and is far far higher a terrorsit target due to this. Nuclear weapons are pointless for a country our size as they cannot save us, only incinerate those who incinerated us already.
And besides, its not likely that we would be targeted for nuclear desturction if an enemy knew we could not retaliate in such a fashion. The only countires that would have the capability are Russia and China and even then they are more interested in getting our money through trade. Indeed, the most likely people to attack us are terrorists and we are FAR more likely to be a target as part of the UK with its Middle east adventures. Much better to be a small country that works with others than a large country that bully's and intimidates others so that we end up targets of extremists.
We are certainly not stronger socially as it has been 6 decades since the Scottish people voted for a Conservative Government and yet we are lumbered with them constantly.
We have a situation where the Education of our youth is promoted in Scotland and yet attempts to standardise £9k fees are imposed from Westminster against the wishes of the Scottish electorate (See latest amendments to the Scotland Bill for details). The NHS is preserved in Scotland and being privatised in England, the social cohesion that has brought this country is being undermined. Again, attempts are being made to undermine the Scottish electorates wishes for social provisions in the constant attacks on free elderly care, prescriptions and the removal of market economics from this public service.
CONT...
Scotland 'stronger, safer, richer and fairer' as part of UK
Why do we need to be stronger? Stronger how, Militarily, Socially, Economically?
The UK has the seventh largest Economy in the world but spends the fourth most on the military. Why do we need to spend so much more on the military than countries that are more prosperous than us.
Scotland needs only to have a Defence force to defend our borders, we need not go galavanting over the globe on militaristic adventures at the behest of the Americans for nothing more than resources under the guise of democracy.
We have the UK's entire nuclear deterrent located next to our Largest population centre (Glasgow) and as such it is prime target number 1 for any nuclear attack and is far far higher a terrorsit target due to this. Nuclear weapons are pointless for a country our size as they cannot save us, only incinerate those who incinerated us already.
And besides, its not likely that we would be targeted for nuclear desturction if an enemy knew we could not retaliate in such a fashion. The only countires that would have the capability are Russia and China and even then they are more interested in getting our money through trade. Indeed, the most likely people to attack us are terrorists and we are FAR more likely to be a target as part of the UK with its Middle east adventures. Much better to be a small country that works with others than a large country that bully's and intimidates others so that we end up targets of extremists.
We are certainly not stronger socially as it has been 6 decades since the Scottish people voted for a Conservative Government and yet we are lumbered with them constantly.
We have a situation where the Education of our youth is promoted in Scotland and yet attempts to standardise £9k fees are imposed from Westminster against the wishes of the Scottish electorate (See latest amendments to the Scotland Bill for details). The NHS is preserved in Scotland and being privatised in England, the social cohesion that has brought this country is being undermined. Again, attempts are being made to undermine the Scottish electorates wishes for social provisions in the constant attacks on free elderly care, prescriptions and the removal of market economics from this public service.
CONT...
#
2012-02-16 23:07
CONT...
Economically we can look at the fact that the UK is the seventh largest Economy, but this is foolish. GDP means nothing on its own! It is GDP per head of population that equates to wealth and the UK lies in 22nd position with Iceland 16th, Ireland 15th and Norway 4th. In fact the OECD has stated that should Scotland be independent it would occupy the number 7 slot, displacing the USA to 8th for wealth per head of population.
Scotland currently has 8.4% of the UK population but pays 9.4% of all Taxes and spends 9.3% of all UK spending. Scotland would be better off financially through independence based on current spending.
It also must be noted that an independent Scottish Defence force is estimated to cost £2.2 Billion and would be a full £960 million cheaper than we currently spend yet be better equiped for defence.
All taxes and incentives for industry are set up to benefit the south east of england at present. Scottish Independence could alter the balance by reducing Corporation tax or providing incentives to move here thereby reducing the levels of unemployment and increasing taxes overall. Within the Union we currently cannot do this.
We have some of the largest areas of deprivation and unemployment in the Union yet pay the most in taxes outside of the South east, and even then there is a question mark over how much the south east actually contributes due to headquarters being registered there for tax.
We are currently looking at the UK losing the coveted AAA rating, yet Scotlands books would be significantly better and as such we would not likely lose the AAA as we are comfortably within the criteria, like many many other small countries.
The UK is the fourth most unequal country in the Western World. The Condems are removing the social provisions that stopped it being even worse. The bankers, the city and the politicians are attempting to suck the rest of the country dry. There is 1 Tory MP in scotland and yet they think they can talk for us.
Our fishing rights are used as bargaining chips in EU negotiations, our Banks are classed as UK for taxes and Scottish for debts. Our people are treated to sub-standard media accountability and service and we are constantly overlooked for UK infrastructure projects as these continually get built in the south of England (HS2 £32 Billion, Cross- Rail £16 Billion, Millenium Dome, Channel Tunnel, Olympics £9 Billion, M25 improvements etc...) and NO Barnett consequentials get put through.
All the time the Forth road bridge, trams in edinburgh, commonwealth games etc... are having to be funded from our pocket money only.
So Jog on Mr Cameron!
Economically we can look at the fact that the UK is the seventh largest Economy, but this is foolish. GDP means nothing on its own! It is GDP per head of population that equates to wealth and the UK lies in 22nd position with Iceland 16th, Ireland 15th and Norway 4th. In fact the OECD has stated that should Scotland be independent it would occupy the number 7 slot, displacing the USA to 8th for wealth per head of population.
Scotland currently has 8.4% of the UK population but pays 9.4% of all Taxes and spends 9.3% of all UK spending. Scotland would be better off financially through independence based on current spending.
It also must be noted that an independent Scottish Defence force is estimated to cost £2.2 Billion and would be a full £960 million cheaper than we currently spend yet be better equiped for defence.
All taxes and incentives for industry are set up to benefit the south east of england at present. Scottish Independence could alter the balance by reducing Corporation tax or providing incentives to move here thereby reducing the levels of unemployment and increasing taxes overall. Within the Union we currently cannot do this.
We have some of the largest areas of deprivation and unemployment in the Union yet pay the most in taxes outside of the South east, and even then there is a question mark over how much the south east actually contributes due to headquarters being registered there for tax.
We are currently looking at the UK losing the coveted AAA rating, yet Scotlands books would be significantly better and as such we would not likely lose the AAA as we are comfortably within the criteria, like many many other small countries.
The UK is the fourth most unequal country in the Western World. The Condems are removing the social provisions that stopped it being even worse. The bankers, the city and the politicians are attempting to suck the rest of the country dry. There is 1 Tory MP in scotland and yet they think they can talk for us.
Our fishing rights are used as bargaining chips in EU negotiations, our Banks are classed as UK for taxes and Scottish for debts. Our people are treated to sub-standard media accountability and service and we are constantly overlooked for UK infrastructure projects as these continually get built in the south of England (HS2 £32 Billion, Cross- Rail £16 Billion, Millenium Dome, Channel Tunnel, Olympics £9 Billion, M25 improvements etc...) and NO Barnett consequentials get put through.
All the time the Forth road bridge, trams in edinburgh, commonwealth games etc... are having to be funded from our pocket money only.
So Jog on Mr Cameron!
#
2012-02-17 08:49
Sleekit, great summary. I have copied and pasted that to send to a few people that are swithering. It might just nudge them in the right direction.
Onwards and Upwards
Onwards and Upwards
#
2012-02-17 11:55
Well thanks for that sleekit, says a lot that has to be heard by those people in Scotland, and there are still too many of them who do not understand what sticking with the UK means.
#
2012-02-16 23:19
Why is it to much to even hope that our media will at least ask Mr Cameron what he means by more powers instead of just parroting the tory myth that we will get something better later but only if we say no now .
Deja-vu is what I'm feeling
Deja-vu is what I'm feeling
#
2012-02-16 23:28
Do you think that the media are not asking any questions because they already know the answers?
There is no point in asking "Call me Dave" what he means by more powers because everyone knows that these fictitious powers will nevermaterialise from Westminster.
There is only one way to ensure that Scotland acquires more powers, Vote YES for Independence.
SAOR ALBA!
There is no point in asking "Call me Dave" what he means by more powers because everyone knows that these fictitious powers will nevermaterialise from Westminster.
There is only one way to ensure that Scotland acquires more powers, Vote YES for Independence.
SAOR ALBA!
#
2012-02-17 11:56
Goodness I hope not as I would have to send the poor wee thing back, the existing mutt takes after his American Daddy and will not tolerate another one in the house.
#
2012-02-16 23:28
I watched Lamont's interview on both STV and the BBC at supper time, is it just me or does she speak like she's got a moouth full of bools, exspecially when paniced.
#
2012-02-17 11:59
One answer yes, because she knows she is inferior and this is the only way she can deal with it.
I am right in thinking she is the third teacher we have had a Leader of the Labour Party, must be doing something for the education of Scotland.
I am right in thinking she is the third teacher we have had a Leader of the Labour Party, must be doing something for the education of Scotland.
#
2012-02-17 13:41
Davy, what do you mean "especially when panicked"? She is always in panic mode, with or without a script. :D
#
2012-02-16 23:33
Major error from Cameron today in raising the prospect of devolving further powers after a No vote.
Salmond has been quick to spot it and seize on it.
If Cameron gives no more detail of what he is prepared to devolve, then he is seen as a chancer.
If he gives the detail, that even John Curtice says he must, and it is more of the same "airguns and speed limits", he will drive Devo Max voters into the Independence Camp.
If he gives detail that gets close to devo max - then he's effectively conceded.
Not much of a poker player is Dave!
Salmond has been quick to spot it and seize on it.
If Cameron gives no more detail of what he is prepared to devolve, then he is seen as a chancer.
If he gives the detail, that even John Curtice says he must, and it is more of the same "airguns and speed limits", he will drive Devo Max voters into the Independence Camp.
If he gives detail that gets close to devo max - then he's effectively conceded.
Not much of a poker player is Dave!
#
2012-02-16 23:34
Reminds me of that old joke.
Q.How do you know when Cameron is lying?
A. When he opens his mouth.
So in a nutshell :-
I've made my visit to Scotland. I know the more I speak, the more the yes vote goes up. These past few weeks and up till today I and my deputies have contridicted each other over "No more Powers, line in the sand" etc.
I'm trying the last measure left, namely the old "Jam tomorrow" scam.
It's does not seem to be having the effect it had on a previous generation here in Scotland.
So it leaves me one last option - I call upon my Labour partners to take over the anti-independence campaign. In the hope that they can do better. Should they fail, at least the damage they'll have done to their own party both in Scotland and in England, will allow us Tories to rule supreme in what's left of the UK. I'm deeply deeply sad at the moment. Perhaps that porridge did not agree with me. Nothing in Scotland ever does mind you.
Q.How do you know when Cameron is lying?
A. When he opens his mouth.
So in a nutshell :-
I've made my visit to Scotland. I know the more I speak, the more the yes vote goes up. These past few weeks and up till today I and my deputies have contridicted each other over "No more Powers, line in the sand" etc.
I'm trying the last measure left, namely the old "Jam tomorrow" scam.
It's does not seem to be having the effect it had on a previous generation here in Scotland.
So it leaves me one last option - I call upon my Labour partners to take over the anti-independence campaign. In the hope that they can do better. Should they fail, at least the damage they'll have done to their own party both in Scotland and in England, will allow us Tories to rule supreme in what's left of the UK. I'm deeply deeply sad at the moment. Perhaps that porridge did not agree with me. Nothing in Scotland ever does mind you.
#
2012-02-16 23:36
So after all the hype the referendum question from Labour/Lib Dems/Tories is:
" If you wish further powers for Scotland vote No and we will promise you (not decided yet)that in the future we may graciously give you more power's (once the oil runs out)
(In Morningside parlance-- "You have had your tea?"
" If you wish further powers for Scotland vote No and we will promise you (not decided yet)that in the future we may graciously give you more power's (once the oil runs out)
(In Morningside parlance-- "You have had your tea?"
#
2012-02-16 23:42
I was only 9 at the time but I remember the clip of Alec Douglas Home doing the "we will deliver something better" line on telly. I've looked on Youtube but can't find it. Is it out there somewhere?....younger generations should see it and compare it with Cameron's crap today.
#
2012-02-17 00:55
I read in the Torygraph comments that the Beeb showed it tonight. If that's true, someone will be bound to have snagged it.
#
2012-02-16 23:43
So in the space of a fortnight we've gone from absolutely no concessions on devolution to unspecified extra powers. Of course this was accompanied by thinly veiled threats such as removing ourselves from the protection of the British military and unspecified difficulties over use of the pound as currency, losing out on seats at big tables and loss of a meaningful voice on the world stage. Not to mention the uncounted and even more obvious threats posted through all media by both government and commentator alike in the past nine months.
I am supposed to vote no to independence for a mixture of unspecified extra powers and threats. Lets think about that as an approach to a long time friend and ally who really just wants to run their own show and pay their own way in the world. How many friends would you approach as one person to another with a deal like that?
Think about it and think about the obvious answer.
I am supposed to vote no to independence for a mixture of unspecified extra powers and threats. Lets think about that as an approach to a long time friend and ally who really just wants to run their own show and pay their own way in the world. How many friends would you approach as one person to another with a deal like that?
Think about it and think about the obvious answer.
#
2012-02-17 00:12
Posted that little lot and a few other choice words 'dan saf' in the Guardian. Cybernats are having a field day on Cameron's visit. :)
#
2012-02-16 23:58
U-turn if you want to Dave, I'm sticking to the road straight ahead......to INDEPENDENCE!
Saor Alba!
Saor Alba!
#
2012-02-17 00:24
Having recently completed the most recent expansion to the "Darkened Room" I am now working on a new project, the "Enlightening Room". This room will be for all unionists who wish to seek help and assistance to correct the errors of their ways. :D
#
2012-02-17 01:30
Welcome back Abroath. Was worried you had shuffled off this mortal coil before independence day :-)
#
2012-02-17 01:47
Whit! and miss ALL the fun of watching the unionists squirm ever faster on the skewer that is Scottish Independence. Naw, I'm having too much fun.
Anyway I've got over my wee upset period with Newsnet so I'm back, at least until my next moderation. :D
Anyway I've got over my wee upset period with Newsnet so I'm back, at least until my next moderation. :D
#
2012-02-17 07:54
I've got the bunk beds on order and the bar in the corner is tapped.
I'll get ma coat. :D
I'll get ma coat. :D
#
2012-02-17 11:11
I missed all that - were you in the sinbin Arbroath1320?
May I suggest papering the walls in the Enlightening Room with Paul T. Kavanagh's article from yesterday?
May I suggest papering the walls in the Enlightening Room with Paul T. Kavanagh's article from yesterday?
#
2012-02-17 12:33
Unfortunately the moderators took umbridge to my use of the "T" word when describing Moore. I was put into pre moderation so decided to give up reading Newsnet. If you are serious about independence you can only avoid this site for so long before the urges get too much. :D
I like your idea for wallpaper. A mass order for the article is on its way. :D
I like your idea for wallpaper. A mass order for the article is on its way. :D
#
2012-02-17 17:21
Well I hope you've learned your lesson! Next time count to ten before you press send.....
I know what you mean about Newsnet, fair cheers me up when I've been exposed to negativity elsewhere. Seems like the last refuge of the sane sometimes. :)
I know what you mean about Newsnet, fair cheers me up when I've been exposed to negativity elsewhere. Seems like the last refuge of the sane sometimes. :)
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2012-02-17 17:41
The trouble is I DID count to ten, but I still sent them.
Ach a wee holiday always does the soul good, or so I've been told. :D
Ach a wee holiday always does the soul good, or so I've been told. :D
#
2012-02-18 21:51
[quote name="Arbroath1320"]Unfortunately the moderators took umbridge to my use of the "T" word when describing Moore.]
Oh but that is nasty -you called him a Tory?
Oh but that is nasty -you called him a Tory?
#
2012-02-17 00:04
He had him and then let him off the hook but it shows you that Mr Cameron is easily rattled when you pin him down.
#
2012-02-17 01:48
I watched it again and I think I was being a wee bit unfair to Bernard he did really well and I only wish the rest of our newspeople would take Mr Cameron to task instead of just rolling over and getting their tummy tickled.
#
2012-02-17 00:09
Aye Bernard was very strong on pursuing Cameron. Impressive
Same studio interview from Scoop Campbell on Newsnicht. Much more gentle.
No interruptions from the BBC. Just set them up and give Dave a few minutes of free propaganda without counter.
Same studio interview from Scoop Campbell on Newsnicht. Much more gentle.
No interruptions from the BBC. Just set them up and give Dave a few minutes of free propaganda without counter.
#
2012-02-17 00:01
Yeah, but Rona Dougall just undid all the good work by letting Labour's Deputy have free reign of the mic.... shoddy!
#
2012-02-17 00:07
Let him dig a bigger hole - he and Lamentable are doing a great job. They prefer supporting Tories to thinking."not thinking" - I suppose that's not at all unusual for Labour in Scotland. Millipede must have given the OK.
#
2012-02-17 00:05
You can bet your bottom dollar that if we say ‘no’ to devolution, it will be carte blanche to the coalition to take back all powers to Westminster on the understanding that Scots did not want independence and would prefer to be ruled by London.
Kiss goodbye to the NHS, any revenue from oil, whisky, renewables whose head offices will remain in London for them to milk the tax revenue. Plus we’ll be lumbered with the dangerous and polluting abomination at Faslane.
Don't be fooled. Vote Yes.
Kiss goodbye to the NHS, any revenue from oil, whisky, renewables whose head offices will remain in London for them to milk the tax revenue. Plus we’ll be lumbered with the dangerous and polluting abomination at Faslane.
Don't be fooled. Vote Yes.
#
2012-02-17 00:13
Now that he has "visited" Scotland today and opened his mouth again I wonder how many more new SNP memberships he has created today.
#
2012-02-17 00:20
Mr Cameron, and other Unionists, keep talking about the security and defence that Scotland enjoys as part of the UK.
Well here is an example of that:
No standby warships to guard Britain for a month (Nov 2011)
telegraph.co.uk/.../...
Quote:
Remember just a few weeks ago when some ships from the Russian Navy hove to off the Moray Firth. Where was our protection then? Answer, in the South of England from whence a RN ship was eventually dispatched.
The MOD scrapped the replacement aircraft for the Nimrod as part of the Defence Review so we do we have air surveillence of our North Sea Oil assets or those of Shetland?
So much for the Union Dividend in that respect. Probably better with the Co-op divi.
Well here is an example of that:
No standby warships to guard Britain for a month (Nov 2011)
telegraph.co.uk/.../...
Quote:
""The Navy normally provides a minimum coverage of a frigate or destroyer fulfilling the role of Fleet Ready Escort (FRE) in order to be able to respond quickly to a potential threat at home or abroad.
However, slashed Defence budgets and the war in Libya has meant there hasn't been a vessel available since the start of October.
The last ship to fill the role, called the FRE, was HMS Portland but that left for war games off the coast of Scotland in October, and it is now having a rest period in Plymouth on the south coast.
Former First Sea Lord Admiral Lord Alan West said: "I would hardly say it is a luxury. If there was a terrorism incident in UK waters, this would historically be the ship sent in to deal with it.
"It's a big problem. If we haven't got a ship ready to do this role then it's worrying. It's a very unsatisfactory position to be in."
Remember just a few weeks ago when some ships from the Russian Navy hove to off the Moray Firth. Where was our protection then? Answer, in the South of England from whence a RN ship was eventually dispatched.
The MOD scrapped the replacement aircraft for the Nimrod as part of the Defence Review so we do we have air surveillence of our North Sea Oil assets or those of Shetland?
So much for the Union Dividend in that respect. Probably better with the Co-op divi.
#
2012-02-17 00:22
OH MY GOODNESS ME!!!
I didn't expect that on Scotland Tonight.... They set the debate on Celtics future up to question (attack) Alex Salmonds remarks... but the tone quickly resorted to bitter Old Firm rivalry. The comments including a reminder of Rangers in Manchester and that Celtic were enjoying the difficulties at Ibrox kinda overshadowed any mild throw away comments by the first minister!
Bet STV didn't see that coming?
I didn't expect that on Scotland Tonight.... They set the debate on Celtics future up to question (attack) Alex Salmonds remarks... but the tone quickly resorted to bitter Old Firm rivalry. The comments including a reminder of Rangers in Manchester and that Celtic were enjoying the difficulties at Ibrox kinda overshadowed any mild throw away comments by the first minister!
Bet STV didn't see that coming?
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2012-02-17 00:29
Quoting Alba4Eva:
Imagine allowing Kelly who had Celtic within hours of liquidation on to talk about football finance and allowing a two prong attack on Alex Salmond who was only saying what everyone knows.. all clubs will lose money if Rangers go burst.
OH MY GOODNESS ME!!!
Bet STV didn't see that coming?
Imagine allowing Kelly who had Celtic within hours of liquidation on to talk about football finance and allowing a two prong attack on Alex Salmond who was only saying what everyone knows.. all clubs will lose money if Rangers go burst.
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2012-02-17 00:31
Indeed. That was hilarious.
Kelly got so carried away arguing with the other guy that he ended up agreeing with Alex Salmond. Just brilliant.
Kelly got so carried away arguing with the other guy that he ended up agreeing with Alex Salmond. Just brilliant.
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2012-02-17 01:01
Michael Kelly is notoriously anti-SNP, but he did concede that the loss of the old firm matches would make Scottish football less interesting. It kind of counteracts the rhetoric coming from Celtic that it wouldn't matter to them if Rangers went down the pan.
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2012-02-17 00:27
Hello, my first post here.
I think that this has caught the FM out a wee bit. Cameron has blinked a lot sooner than expected on the issue of more powers. But AS dealt with it well by asking for the details.
I wonder if we might yet see a second question on the ballot .... in essence, do you want the Liberal scheme of Home rule ... backed by the Tories!!!
So we end up with the SNP and Greens backing "Yes, Yes"
The Tories and Lib Dums and the STUC on "Naw, Yes"
Then we'd have Labour (we don't want separation, and don't like the Tories, but only we can be trusted wi' Glesga) as champions for "Naw, Naw"
Would love to see everyone's favourite Thatcherite, one M Forsythe, reaction to today's events. And next FMs question time will be loads of fun if Ruth and Johann try again (in vain) to score points against AS on the referendum and Independence.
I think that this has caught the FM out a wee bit. Cameron has blinked a lot sooner than expected on the issue of more powers. But AS dealt with it well by asking for the details.
I wonder if we might yet see a second question on the ballot .... in essence, do you want the Liberal scheme of Home rule ... backed by the Tories!!!
So we end up with the SNP and Greens backing "Yes, Yes"
The Tories and Lib Dums and the STUC on "Naw, Yes"
Then we'd have Labour (we don't want separation, and don't like the Tories, but only we can be trusted wi' Glesga) as champions for "Naw, Naw"
Would love to see everyone's favourite Thatcherite, one M Forsythe, reaction to today's events. And next FMs question time will be loads of fun if Ruth and Johann try again (in vain) to score points against AS on the referendum and Independence.
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2012-02-17 01:51
"I think that this has caught the FM out a wee bit. Cameron has blinked a lot sooner than expected on the issue of more powers."
So much for the suggestion from No 10 that it was only to be a courtesy visit from Cameron.
So much for the suggestion from No 10 that it was only to be a courtesy visit from Cameron.
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2012-02-17 12:36
Louper, if they didn't get a snap I'm sure someone would have been kind enough to buy them a copy, it's only £7.00 from the SNP website shop. :D
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2012-02-17 11:29
It was interesting to hear the observations of the BBC man from London as to how it was all panning out and solutions were emerging. Salmond had not said no to the promise of more jam from Cameron, he said.
The doubt that goes through the mind about how London reporters can have any inkling about Scottish politics.
The doubt that goes through the mind about how London reporters can have any inkling about Scottish politics.
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2012-02-17 03:05
Quoting DaveyFaeArdross an:
Welcome aboard Davey. Good first post. Just one wee amendment, at FMQ's if they stick to their usual pejoratives, Ruth and Johann will be using the terms "uncertainty" and "separation".
Hello, my first post here.
I think that this has caught the FM out a wee bit. Cameron has blinked a lot sooner than expected on the issue of more powers. But AS dealt with it well by asking for the details.
I wonder if we might yet see a second question on the ballot .... in essence, do you want the Liberal scheme of Home rule ... backed by the Tories!!!
So we end up with the SNP and Greens backing "Yes, Yes"
The Tories and Lib Dums and the STUC on "Naw, Yes"
Then we'd have Labour (we don't want separation, and don't like the Tories, but only we can be trusted wi' Glesga) as champions for "Naw, Naw"
Would love to see everyone's favourite Thatcherite, one M Forsythe, reaction to today's events. And next FMs question time will be loads of fun if Ruth and Johann try again (in vain) to score points against AS on the referendum and Independence.
Welcome aboard Davey. Good first post. Just one wee amendment, at FMQ's if they stick to their usual pejoratives, Ruth and Johann will be using the terms "uncertainty" and "separation".
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2012-02-17 00:32
And using the football analogy it was 2 nil to Salmond as Cameron had to concede an independent Scotland was viable and has opened a can of worms with his Alex Douglas Home promise.
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2012-02-17 01:03
To further continue the football analogy, Cameron has put himself firmly on the penalty spot. He will now have to define what he means by jam tomorrow (will it be strawberry or raspberry?).
As Salmond suggested, Scots are not going to be taken in again by false promises.
As Salmond suggested, Scots are not going to be taken in again by false promises.
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2012-02-17 00:34
"Stronger and safer together"
The aircraft carrier which is being built at the moment at Rosyth will never carry aircraft. How stupid is that? Here's an article from 18th Oct 2010 telegraph.co.uk/.../...
And from the Evening Times 19th Oct 2010 (Paywall) eveningtimes.co.uk/.../...
The aircraft carrier which is being built at the moment at Rosyth will never carry aircraft. How stupid is that? Here's an article from 18th Oct 2010 telegraph.co.uk/.../...
And from the Evening Times 19th Oct 2010 (Paywall) eveningtimes.co.uk/.../...
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2012-02-17 00:42
bigbuachaille, I hear there is a proposal to use "new" carriers being built for all future "Old Firm" football matches. The ships are to anchored 100 miles off shore and the teams plus any fans not suffering from sea sickness will be transferred to the carrier by HMS Astute. Oops sorry I forgot it can't be Astute, this sub has a regular tendency to run aground. Looks like fans and teams will have to swim out to the carrier. :D
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2012-02-17 01:19
"Stronger and safer together". He can only mean that England will be stronger and safer if the Union holds.
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2012-02-17 00:40
O/T
I need a new TV - last topic on question time Nottingham decided we are too wee and stupid for Independence and couln't afford it and they would have to bail us out when it failed!!!!!!!!
I need a new TV - last topic on question time Nottingham decided we are too wee and stupid for Independence and couln't afford it and they would have to bail us out when it failed!!!!!!!!
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2012-02-17 00:46
clootie, nice to see that the "too wee, too poor, too stupid" concept is still alive and well and doing the rounds of the BBC. Nothing new there then!
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2012-02-17 00:55
QT was bizarre. At least one of the panellists said there were no Scots there.
The BBC are indeed the opposition.
The BBC are indeed the opposition.
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2012-02-17 01:03
One thing I heard was Ken Clarke saying that Scotland would be a small country in the EU ( not that we wouldn't be in the EU) now that's different from the usual crap.
He went on to say that England Ireland and Wales would be diminished ( no mention of the UK just the 3 countries left when Scotland leaves ) that is also very different from the usual rhetoric we get from unionists. Let us not forget he is the UK government justice minister so one would assume that he knows what he is talking about.
Very illuminating language from Mr. Clarke I thought.
He went on to say that England Ireland and Wales would be diminished ( no mention of the UK just the 3 countries left when Scotland leaves ) that is also very different from the usual rhetoric we get from unionists. Let us not forget he is the UK government justice minister so one would assume that he knows what he is talking about.
Very illuminating language from Mr. Clarke I thought.
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2012-02-17 01:16
Quote:
I kept hearing that Scotland would be a small country in the EU so i checked the existing countries in the EU and there are about 14 out of 27 who have populations below 10 million.
Add Scotland to the mix and the small countries would be in the majority and, if they formed a bloc, would have quite a clout when things are proposed that are not in the best interest of small countries. After all there is now majority voting on many aspects of governance of the EU so...
jafurn 2012-02-17 00:03
One thing I heard was Ken Clarke saying that Scotland would be a small country in the EU ( not that we wouldn't be in the EU) now that's different from the usual crap.
I kept hearing that Scotland would be a small country in the EU so i checked the existing countries in the EU and there are about 14 out of 27 who have populations below 10 million.
Add Scotland to the mix and the small countries would be in the majority and, if they formed a bloc, would have quite a clout when things are proposed that are not in the best interest of small countries. After all there is now majority voting on many aspects of governance of the EU so...
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2012-02-17 01:32
No dispute from me on that point but what I was trying to highlight was the change of tone from .....Scotland wouldn't/couldn't be in the EU without re-negotiation to an acceptence that Scotland like the rest of the countries which make up the UK WOULD be EU members (albeit small)
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2012-02-17 14:09
Sorry Jafrun if you thought I was critical of your post. I was just adding extra information about the constant refrain from the pro-Union side about the 'small country in Euyrope' argument.
And yes I had noticed the change in tone of the in/out EU message.
And yes I had noticed the change in tone of the in/out EU message.
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2012-02-17 19:11
No apology needed and I didn't take it as criticism it just gave me a chance to reiterate my comment so a thank you for that.
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2012-02-17 00:56
I would have liked someone to say that England/Nottingham would be financially worse off on Scotland leaving the UK, when they lose the revenues from North Sea oil. The response would have been interesting.
Of course the panel and its chairman know this but dare not mention it.
Of course the panel and its chairman know this but dare not mention it.
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2012-02-17 01:05
J Wil, I stopped watching Q.T. some time ago but I may actually watch this one. Mind you I may have to have the sick bucket handy, I've seen who was on the panel.
I can't say any more about the panel for fear of getting moderated AGAIN! :D
I can't say any more about the panel for fear of getting moderated AGAIN! :D
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2012-02-17 01:07
Dimbleby actually apologised for having no Scottish representation on the question and said he would come back to it.
Not sure who the young guy on the panel is but he seems to be a rising star, as he has been invited several times to commenting on the papers on Sky News. I don't like him being against independence, but he certainly has plenty to say for himself (like a hen on a hot girdle). He said his family were originally from Falkirk.
Not sure who the young guy on the panel is but he seems to be a rising star, as he has been invited several times to commenting on the papers on Sky News. I don't like him being against independence, but he certainly has plenty to say for himself (like a hen on a hot girdle). He said his family were originally from Falkirk.
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2012-02-17 01:19
I just caught the last few minutes of the programme and heard the older woman on the panel stick up for Scotland determining its own future. I think someone in the audience had asked why it should only be Scots who voted in the referendum and she was replying to that. Also noticed that she was interrupted by the Chairman before she could finish her point.
Yes somebody mentioned there were no Scots on the panel but then Dimbleby laughed.
Yes somebody mentioned there were no Scots on the panel but then Dimbleby laughed.
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2012-02-17 01:29
Quote:
Maybe Kenneth Roy knows him then because I think he comes from Falkirk.
He said his family were originally from Falkirk.
Maybe Kenneth Roy knows him then because I think he comes from Falkirk.
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2012-02-17 11:45
The lad wrote the book 'Chavs' apparently. I suspect Kenneth Roy has probably travelled by bus or train with him.
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2012-02-18 21:58
Quoting CapnAndy:
Now Andy, that was a cruel comment.
(but I loved it)
The lad wrote the book 'Chavs' apparently. I suspect Kenneth Roy has probably travelled by bus or train with him.
Now Andy, that was a cruel comment.
(but I loved it)
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2012-02-17 08:03
Quoting J Wil:
Sorry J Wil, I'm not stalking you but your descriptions of the tv shows are very well done. Although I'll clearly state I did not & cannot see the programme, I have to comment on the "rising star" ancestral link to Falkirk. How that gives him any right to comment on Scotland's affairs is beyond me. Only (and I mean this most sincerely, folks) those domiciled in Scotland will be eligible to vote in the referendum & therefore those with Grannies fae Falkirk or Uncles who visited Stonehaven should leave it to those with a real vested interest.
Dimbleby actually apologised for having no Scottish representation on the question and said he would come back to it.
Not sure who the young guy on the panel is but he seems to be a rising star, as he has been invited several times to commenting on the papers on Sky News. I don't like him being against independence, but he certainly has plenty to say for himself (like a hen on a hot girdle). He said his family were originally from Falkirk.
Sorry J Wil, I'm not stalking you but your descriptions of the tv shows are very well done. Although I'll clearly state I did not & cannot see the programme, I have to comment on the "rising star" ancestral link to Falkirk. How that gives him any right to comment on Scotland's affairs is beyond me. Only (and I mean this most sincerely, folks) those domiciled in Scotland will be eligible to vote in the referendum & therefore those with Grannies fae Falkirk or Uncles who visited Stonehaven should leave it to those with a real vested interest.
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2012-02-17 23:47
I was born in Falkirk but I was one of the economic migrants of the 60s who went overseas. I follow the independence debate very closely and probably know more about the politics of Scotland than many who live there. I accept that no matter how close I may feel to my native country that only those who are living there have a right to determine its future.
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2012-02-17 01:13
It was only the last five or ten minutes I saw and my first thought about the question re Scotland was ...Hang on this is the man who told Nicola Sturgeon not to talk about Scotland when the show was in glasgow but then I heard Ken Clarke and was glad I never threw something at the tv
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2012-02-17 13:49
All rumours of my early demise were premature. :D
I felt it safer to avoid this site for a while after my run in with the moderators tail end of last year. I was getting rather fed up with continually sitting on the "naughty step". :D
Still as they say, you can't keep a good blogger down for long.
Here's Arby!
I'm BACK! :D
I felt it safer to avoid this site for a while after my run in with the moderators tail end of last year. I was getting rather fed up with continually sitting on the "naughty step". :D
Still as they say, you can't keep a good blogger down for long.
Here's Arby!
I'm BACK! :D
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2012-02-18 21:55
Quoting clootie:
I switched it off in disgust after that stupid, stupid question.
O/T
I need a new TV - last topic on question time Nottingham decided we are too wee and stupid for Independence and couln't afford it and they would have to bail us out when it failed!!!!!!!!
I switched it off in disgust after that stupid, stupid question.
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2012-02-17 00:47
A couple of weeks ago it was
Scotland can't go it alone SO shouldn't
Now it's
Scotland can go it alone BUT shouldn't
I get a feeling they are coming (slowly) to the realisation that Scotland is going it alone.
Scotland can't go it alone SO shouldn't
Now it's
Scotland can go it alone BUT shouldn't
I get a feeling they are coming (slowly) to the realisation that Scotland is going it alone.
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2012-02-17 00:53
All right now.
Will the ones believing Mr. Cameron would make good his promise of more power for Scotland if we vote against Independence, rise their hands, please?
And now the ones believing he will not make good his promise?
That's your result.
Do not forget to go to vote on Independence Referendum day, please.
Will the ones believing Mr. Cameron would make good his promise of more power for Scotland if we vote against Independence, rise their hands, please?
And now the ones believing he will not make good his promise?
That's your result.
Do not forget to go to vote on Independence Referendum day, please.
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2012-02-17 01:08
Slightly O/T
I’ve been doing some population statistics
The results completely destroy the” stronger together” slogan we are having inflicted on us.
Country/ Population 1911/ Population 2011/ percentage increase
UK 45.4 million/ 62.5 million/ appx 40%
England 36.0 million/ 52.0 million /appx 45%
R Ireland 2.7 million/ 4.5 million/ appx 70%
N Zealand 1.1 million/ 4.4 million/ appx 300%
Norway * 2.4 million/ 4.9 million/ appx 110%
Denmark 2.75 million/ 5.5 million/ appx 100%
Scotland 4.75 million/ 5.1 million/ appx 7%
Norway* was part of Sweden until 1906
I’ve been doing some population statistics
The results completely destroy the” stronger together” slogan we are having inflicted on us.
Country/ Population 1911/ Population 2011/ percentage increase
UK 45.4 million/ 62.5 million/ appx 40%
England 36.0 million/ 52.0 million /appx 45%
R Ireland 2.7 million/ 4.5 million/ appx 70%
N Zealand 1.1 million/ 4.4 million/ appx 300%
Norway * 2.4 million/ 4.9 million/ appx 110%
Denmark 2.75 million/ 5.5 million/ appx 100%
Scotland 4.75 million/ 5.1 million/ appx 7%
Norway* was part of Sweden until 1906
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2012-02-17 01:23
Probably a lot of the NZ increase, but not all, is down to Scots emigrating there throughout the 20th Century. I think NZ had a similar assisted passage scheme as Australia.
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2012-02-17 10:36
This is REALLY IMPORTANT
We can all have opinions but this looks like a set of real scientific data with which the Unions performance after 1911 can be judged. A larger sample would be nice but I think it will only increase statistical confidence that Scotland has undergone someone pretty unique and nasty.
Statistically this cannot be due to chance factors. It looks like the result of deliberate factors working against Scotland - a unstated policy of ethnic cleansing and displacement perhaps. We should get the Unionists to explain this.
We can all have opinions but this looks like a set of real scientific data with which the Unions performance after 1911 can be judged. A larger sample would be nice but I think it will only increase statistical confidence that Scotland has undergone someone pretty unique and nasty.
Statistically this cannot be due to chance factors. It looks like the result of deliberate factors working against Scotland - a unstated policy of ethnic cleansing and displacement perhaps. We should get the Unionists to explain this.
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2012-02-17 02:04
Off topic but watch this from around 26 minutes and 20 seconds as a Libdem MP at a westminster select committee asks about the standard of the resonse and prediction of storms upon electrical power provision in Scotland North of the Forth........................I love the way the two guys being questioned listened and answered and then the Libdem ticked a box and says 'ok":
bbc.co.uk/.../...
bbc.co.uk/.../...
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2012-02-17 02:14
David Camerons real respect agenda for Scotland canbe seen herehttp://www.muzzerino.com/2012/02/david-cameron-on-scottish-respect.html in his comments on the viability of an Independent Scotland Defence force.
Far be it from me to call him a liar, but it certainly seems to clash with what he said yesterday.
Far be it from me to call him a liar, but it certainly seems to clash with what he said yesterday.
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2012-02-17 07:35
Quoting elmuzzerino:
here it is
muzzerino.com/.../...
David Camerons real respect agenda for Scotland canbe seen herehttp://www.muzzerino.com/2012/02/david-cameron-on-scottish-respect.html in his comments on the viability of an Independent Scotland Defence force.
Far be it from me to call him a liar, but it certainly seems to clash with what he said yesterday.
here it is
muzzerino.com/.../...
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2012-02-17 04:07
Have all of those who were going on and on about the BBC - and how nothing could be expected from Patten noticed (I certainly have ) a distinct difference in tone and attitude from the news broadcasters since his visit? No reason not to keep a weather eye on all the Labour hacks who live in Pacific Quay, but I have the impression that following the dossier given to Patten on his visit, the new Rules of Guidance will be much more acceptable, and professional.I dont expect the BBC to be SNP partial, indeed if they became so it would merely mirror their past errors. I dont want a state-controlled media, whether Tory, Labour or SNP - that would be very bad for democracy in an Independent Scotland.
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2012-02-17 12:50
He was visiting Edinburgh zoo, specifically the pandas. They were giving him some tips on how to do a neutral and unbiased report on Scottish politics. :D
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2012-02-17 14:12
I think Holyrood was on its half-term hols and of course there was not much of anything else happening in Scotland on the political front yesterday - was there?
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2012-02-17 17:22
Quoting J Wil:
BBC political blog was open yesterday with over 1000 posters. Funny that, Cameron speaks on Independence and the whole of the UK can comment. Yet for months Scotland has been unable to comment on Brian's blog. Serious democratic deficit here.
There was an absence of Brian yesterday. Is that significant?
BBC political blog was open yesterday with over 1000 posters. Funny that, Cameron speaks on Independence and the whole of the UK can comment. Yet for months Scotland has been unable to comment on Brian's blog. Serious democratic deficit here.
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2012-02-18 21:34
Quoting J Wil:
Nope. Since his blog is closed it is now "don't bother with brian".
He does one bit of print propaganda per week on the BBC and no longer allows any response. I don't know whether he has complained to his boss about this But I doubt it, as most of the comments were corrections of the mistakes in his reports.
There was an absence of Brian yesterday. Is that significant?
Nope. Since his blog is closed it is now "don't bother with brian".
He does one bit of print propaganda per week on the BBC and no longer allows any response. I don't know whether he has complained to his boss about this But I doubt it, as most of the comments were corrections of the mistakes in his reports.
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2012-02-17 05:51
What is the source of Cameron's "frustration"? Might it be the fact that he has no rational argument to put forward after all this time, other than "stronger together, weaker apart"?
The writing is on the wall, Dave. You reap what you sow.
The writing is on the wall, Dave. You reap what you sow.
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2012-02-17 12:54
km, Cameron is frustrated because he was up against someone who is not frightened of him. A.S. takes s**** from no one, particularly some one who is fast losing any relevance to the people of Scotland.
The penny is finally beginning to drop for Cameron, he can't bully A.S. and he can't bully Scotland. The old bully boy tactics of Westminster no longer work up here.
The penny is finally beginning to drop for Cameron, he can't bully A.S. and he can't bully Scotland. The old bully boy tactics of Westminster no longer work up here.
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2012-02-17 13:39
Arbroath1320 2012-02-17 11:54
“km, Cameron is frustrated because he was up against someone who is not frightened of him. A.S. takes s**** from no one, particularly some one who is fast losing any relevance to the people of Scotland.
The penny is finally beginning to drop for Cameron, he can't bully A.S. and he can't bully Scotland. The old bully boy tactics of Westminster no longer work up here.”
I can agree with you on one thing there, “The old bully boy tactics of Westminster no longer work up here”.
We have our very own “Home grown” bully boys.
“km, Cameron is frustrated because he was up against someone who is not frightened of him. A.S. takes s**** from no one, particularly some one who is fast losing any relevance to the people of Scotland.
The penny is finally beginning to drop for Cameron, he can't bully A.S. and he can't bully Scotland. The old bully boy tactics of Westminster no longer work up here.”
I can agree with you on one thing there, “The old bully boy tactics of Westminster no longer work up here”.
We have our very own “Home grown” bully boys.
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2012-02-17 08:09
We've all been there, though, haven't we? We think we'll be able to convincingly argue & back-up our chosen beliefs; only to discover the opponent's points actually make more sense and they are far better at making them!
It is frustrating Dave, isn't it?
It is frustrating Dave, isn't it?
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2012-02-17 08:24
Very frustating.
He'l never forgive the Chinese lending the pandas to Edinburgh, instead of London.
He'l never forgive the Chinese lending the pandas to Edinburgh, instead of London.
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2012-02-17 11:12
On the panda front I'm sure I heard him say they (I presume he meant UK) had helped to bring the pandas to Scotland?
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2012-02-17 13:08
Mato, I think he was just jealous of A.S. Everyone knows that A.S. had everything to do with the arrival of the pandas. Cameron has been in number 10 for less than two years and has yet to visit China as far as I can tell. Which begs the question "how did you help bring the pandas to Scotland Dave?"
He wasn't one of the cargo handlers at Edinburgh airport when the pandas arrived was he? :D
He wasn't one of the cargo handlers at Edinburgh airport when the pandas arrived was he? :D
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2012-02-17 13:34
Cameron has visited China; he and Osborne were in Beijing last year, nabbing credit for the recognition of geographic origin status for Scotch whisky. The whisky association had spent years pushing for this, with some help from Scottish gov/SDI but next to no assistance from the UK foreign office. If you saw the press release or heard their comments at the signing you'd think it was all Whitehall's doing.
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2012-02-17 14:16
My apologies uilleam. I must have blinked at that moment. Mind it from what you say it doesn't surprise me that they would be trying to take all the credit.
Come to think about it though, they will not be taking any credit for any future overseas sales drives, particularly if that nice Mr Hague and his Foreign Office have anything to do with it.
Come to think about it though, they will not be taking any credit for any future overseas sales drives, particularly if that nice Mr Hague and his Foreign Office have anything to do with it.
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2012-02-17 17:23
Quoting mato21:
Is panda diplomacy all black and white?
On the panda front I'm sure I heard him say they (I presume he meant UK) had helped to bring the pandas to Scotland?
Is panda diplomacy all black and white?
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2012-02-17 08:50
Beware Cameron bringing gifts of Jam = Beware Cameron as he has an Alec Douglas-Home moment.
Salmond, way too smart for the UK PM. You can tell by Cameron's eyes and posture, he knows he is out-classed and out maneouvered.
Cameron's visit to Scotland, a patronising waste of time. Achievements from his visit = Nil !.
Salmond, way too smart for the UK PM. You can tell by Cameron's eyes and posture, he knows he is out-classed and out maneouvered.
Cameron's visit to Scotland, a patronising waste of time. Achievements from his visit = Nil !.
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2012-02-17 12:54
Quoting UpSpake:
There was one shot of the pre meeting meeting, where Cameron and Moore were sat opposite the map of Scotland, (class) and showed Alex Salmond addressing Cameron, to Camerons right was the quite remarkable and medically interesting shot of Moore, who was looking at Alex Salmond, and reacting as if he had just laid an egg. Moores eye brows were shooting up and down and he was squirming and grinning and then frowning and twitching his facial muscles. As a study in body language an expert must have had a field day with it.
But I think there will have been a huge reaction to Camerons visit as more and more Scottish voters get behind the SNP and vote yes.
It was patronising stuff. And showed us what a chameleon he really is. Ruthie showing him the Forth Bridge was just pure dry boak.
Beware Cameron bringing gifts of Jam = Beware Cameron as he has an Alec Douglas-Home moment.
Salmond, way too smart for the UK PM. You can tell by Cameron's eyes and posture, he knows he is out-classed and out maneouvered.
Cameron's visit to Scotland, a patronising waste of time. Achievements from his visit = Nil !.
There was one shot of the pre meeting meeting, where Cameron and Moore were sat opposite the map of Scotland, (class) and showed Alex Salmond addressing Cameron, to Camerons right was the quite remarkable and medically interesting shot of Moore, who was looking at Alex Salmond, and reacting as if he had just laid an egg. Moores eye brows were shooting up and down and he was squirming and grinning and then frowning and twitching his facial muscles. As a study in body language an expert must have had a field day with it.
But I think there will have been a huge reaction to Camerons visit as more and more Scottish voters get behind the SNP and vote yes.
It was patronising stuff. And showed us what a chameleon he really is. Ruthie showing him the Forth Bridge was just pure dry boak.
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2012-02-18 21:41
Quoting DonaldMhor:
Lucky it wasn't Joanne - with her math skills - she would have been trying to find the first three to show him.
[quote name="UpSpak it was patronising stuff. And showed us what a chameleon Cameron really is. Ruthie showing him the Forth Bridge was just pure dry boak.
Lucky it wasn't Joanne - with her math skills - she would have been trying to find the first three to show him.
#
2012-02-17 08:58
Some of the labour hame contributers are even going all Tory in defense of the PM.
They are so easy to wind up!
They are so easy to wind up!
#
2012-02-17 09:00
Ah! David Cameron...
Like any high profile politician Cameron wants to keep his legacy safe, so what to do in a difficult situation.
Like they teach you in Service Delivery, approach a problem as a potential opportunity.
Cameron can ensure his legacy by off-loading the "blame" for the UK's demise onto Brown and Blair, almost 2 decades of blame. Then, with Scotland going it alone, he can set himself up as the "Great Architect" of a new British Isles (Not UK). He'll paint a picture of new relationships, stronger economic ties, all for the benefit of the various inhabitants, but with a very big eye on the English votes that matter e.g. "London's financial expertise is perfectly positioned to benefit and be at the centre of the new British Isles."
With yesterday's events, Johann Lamont and Labour are effectively marginalised and the agenda is now set by Cameron. His new approach of not painting an apocalyptic picture, sets up a Duel Roadpath. If Cameron gets a No vote, then it's business as usual and his profile is strengthened. If Scotland votes yes, then it's plan B and Cameron gets his "Great Architect" act out.
He HAS to plan for a Yes vote, he HAS to make contingencies, he HAS to keep his own future and that of the Tories buoyant. Importantly, he HAS to govern post referendum and he'll want to be PM regardless of the vote.
I'm sticking with what I've said previously; Cameron is no fool. He'll play to the gallery and has done on numerous occassions, but this time he's doing a Janus (the Roman god of beginnings and
transitions).
Like any high profile politician Cameron wants to keep his legacy safe, so what to do in a difficult situation.
Like they teach you in Service Delivery, approach a problem as a potential opportunity.
Cameron can ensure his legacy by off-loading the "blame" for the UK's demise onto Brown and Blair, almost 2 decades of blame. Then, with Scotland going it alone, he can set himself up as the "Great Architect" of a new British Isles (Not UK). He'll paint a picture of new relationships, stronger economic ties, all for the benefit of the various inhabitants, but with a very big eye on the English votes that matter e.g. "London's financial expertise is perfectly positioned to benefit and be at the centre of the new British Isles."
With yesterday's events, Johann Lamont and Labour are effectively marginalised and the agenda is now set by Cameron. His new approach of not painting an apocalyptic picture, sets up a Duel Roadpath. If Cameron gets a No vote, then it's business as usual and his profile is strengthened. If Scotland votes yes, then it's plan B and Cameron gets his "Great Architect" act out.
He HAS to plan for a Yes vote, he HAS to make contingencies, he HAS to keep his own future and that of the Tories buoyant. Importantly, he HAS to govern post referendum and he'll want to be PM regardless of the vote.
I'm sticking with what I've said previously; Cameron is no fool. He'll play to the gallery and has done on numerous occassions, but this time he's doing a Janus (the Roman god of beginnings and
transitions).
#
2012-02-17 09:14
Quoting Wave Machine:
Unfortunately for him, in the selection of weapons he chose a rapier and Salmond chose a pistol.
His new approach of not painting an apocalyptic picture, sets up a Duel Roadpath.
Unfortunately for him, in the selection of weapons he chose a rapier and Salmond chose a pistol.
#
2012-02-17 09:26
I think you nail an important point.
All the main political pundits yesterday were talking of how privately Downing Street was very concerned that the legacy of David Cameron's premiership would only be remembered for losing Scotland.
That pretty much sums up The Tories and especially David Cameron's concerns. Self, self, self.
All the main political pundits yesterday were talking of how privately Downing Street was very concerned that the legacy of David Cameron's premiership would only be remembered for losing Scotland.
That pretty much sums up The Tories and especially David Cameron's concerns. Self, self, self.
#
2012-02-17 09:44
Its probably also why Johann was foisted on us as the sacrificial Lamont.
Nobody else wanted the dirty end of the stick.
Nobody else wanted the dirty end of the stick.
#
2012-02-17 09:04
After careful consideration I have to reject Mr camerons promise of more later but only maybe and I have to trust him till then.
If I was buying a house I would want to see a survey. If i was buying a used car I would want to see the engine blah blah blah I really cannot believe the people of Scotland are going to fall for this sophistry from the unionists.
What happens to Mr. Camerons promise if he loses the next election?
If I was buying a house I would want to see a survey. If i was buying a used car I would want to see the engine blah blah blah I really cannot believe the people of Scotland are going to fall for this sophistry from the unionists.
What happens to Mr. Camerons promise if he loses the next election?
#
2012-02-17 09:08
David Cameron is saying "Please don't get a job and leave home. If you stay at home hanging on to Mummy's apron strings I might give you a bit more pocket money, oh and a chocolate biscuit!" It's patronising, incoherent and insulting.
#
2012-02-17 09:41
Please don't go.
We really, really, really want to keep on subsidising all you benefit junkies.
No, really.
We really, really, really want to keep on subsidising all you benefit junkies.
No, really.
#
2012-02-17 09:13
I've noticed that Cameron and the BBc keep referiing to the" Scottish people", whereas A Salmond refers to them as the people of Scotland. I suspect this is an attempt by Westminster and the media to alienate the non native people on the voting register, so they are more likely to vote no.
#
2012-02-17 10:18
Quoting ituna semea:
Not everyone listens to politicians or pundits with quite that level of analytical rigour. People respond to emotional content (explicit and implicit) just as much as lexical content.
When using the definitive article the two definitions are exactly the same.
Not everyone listens to politicians or pundits with quite that level of analytical rigour. People respond to emotional content (explicit and implicit) just as much as lexical content.
#
2012-02-17 11:12
Cameron kept on saying "She" this and "She" that when referring to Scotland.
HOI CAMERON... we are talking about the democratic will of the Scottish people here, not some ideological image of Scotland.
HOI CAMERON... we are talking about the democratic will of the Scottish people here, not some ideological image of Scotland.
#
2012-02-17 09:41
Gary Robertson gave it away this morning. Now we have the Unionists and the Anti Unionists which was probably the main idea of the Cameron speech. i.e the launch of the Unionist Party. I am sure Alec can handle that one. They really are so obvious.
#
2012-02-17 10:29
Didn't see that coming from the Scotsman. But a good article nonetheless. Worth sticking on bookmarks for reference.
Cheers Jafurn
Cheers Jafurn
#
2012-02-17 14:38
From the Scotsman Article:
“Part of the explanation lies in the destruction of indigenous Scottish entrepreneurshi p following the nationalisation of Scottish industry by Westminster governments after the war, and the transfer of their corporate HQs to London. For example, plans by Prestwick-based Scottish Airlines – then one of the biggest private airlines in the world – to create a global network were shattered when its scheduled routes were handed over to new, Heathrow-centric nationalised services. Calls by Scottish MPs and chambers of commerce to have local control of public industries devolved to Edinburgh were summarily rejected.”
Scottish Airlines ceased operations in 1960. Its aircraft and routes were taken over by Dan-Air in 1961.
“Part of the explanation lies in the destruction of indigenous Scottish entrepreneurshi p following the nationalisation of Scottish industry by Westminster governments after the war, and the transfer of their corporate HQs to London. For example, plans by Prestwick-based Scottish Airlines – then one of the biggest private airlines in the world – to create a global network were shattered when its scheduled routes were handed over to new, Heathrow-centric nationalised services. Calls by Scottish MPs and chambers of commerce to have local control of public industries devolved to Edinburgh were summarily rejected.”
Scottish Airlines ceased operations in 1960. Its aircraft and routes were taken over by Dan-Air in 1961.
#
2012-02-17 09:54
Poor Mr Cameron, head full of slamming doors.
Came all this way for a bowl of porrage and never even got to see Tian Tian and Yang Guang. Wee Ruth pointed out the Forth Bridge to him, and David M showed him his best bulldog licking a nettle impression, then he was savaged by FM Mr Salmond.
Little wonder we don't see much of Mr Cameron, is it ?
Came all this way for a bowl of porrage and never even got to see Tian Tian and Yang Guang. Wee Ruth pointed out the Forth Bridge to him, and David M showed him his best bulldog licking a nettle impression, then he was savaged by FM Mr Salmond.
Little wonder we don't see much of Mr Cameron, is it ?
#
2012-02-17 10:02
Yes dogbite, when I heard her trailing it earlier this morning she was gushing on about Camerons vision. I thought here we go again back in the jam pot again. I gave up on BBC Radio Scotland a long time ago.
#
2012-02-17 10:17
Here's another positive story about Scotland's future potential.
Scottish and Southern Energy Renewables has applied to build Scotland's biggest ever hydro electric scheme at the west end of the Great Glen.
The scheme, which would cost about £800m, could create 150 jobs.
bbc.co.uk/.../...
Meanwhile, in a tangential universe...
The UK is to sign a deal with France to strengthen co-operation in the development of civil nuclear energy.
bbc.co.uk/.../...
Scottish and Southern Energy Renewables has applied to build Scotland's biggest ever hydro electric scheme at the west end of the Great Glen.
The scheme, which would cost about £800m, could create 150 jobs.
bbc.co.uk/.../...
Meanwhile, in a tangential universe...
The UK is to sign a deal with France to strengthen co-operation in the development of civil nuclear energy.
bbc.co.uk/.../...
#
2012-02-17 10:28
Timing of the Nuclear Power station deal with France is interesting, in that it was kept back until after Cameron's visit to Scotland
Cameron spoke of 'better together', surely that better together includes working together developing renewables and to take renewable energy from Scotland. Now what we see is that England do not want to be dependable on anyone, including Scotland
Cameron spoke of 'better together', surely that better together includes working together developing renewables and to take renewable energy from Scotland. Now what we see is that England do not want to be dependable on anyone, including Scotland
#
2012-02-17 10:57
I one thinks back to the bad old days. England and France were deadly enemies and Scotland had a good relationship with France, but had a bad deal from England on trading. Now, it seems, England would rather go down the road of buying electricity from France instead of recognising that Scotland could supply it with safe electrical power.
Not much has changed over time with Anglo-Scottish relations.
It's has always been the politicians in London wot are to blame supported by the self seeking Scottish variety.
Not much has changed over time with Anglo-Scottish relations.
It's has always been the politicians in London wot are to blame supported by the self seeking Scottish variety.
#
2012-02-17 11:11
Quoting J Wil:
I accept history is important though not as important as looking to the future. However I am much irked when I hear contributors to the talk shows spout of how poor Scotland was pre union of parliaments when the opposite was true.The £20,000 of bribe money had to be borrowed from queen Ann with a promise to pay it back when the Scottish treasury was emptied. I would highly recommend the book "Scotlands Ruine" an eye opener.
I one thinks back to the bad old days. England and France were deadly enemies and Scotland had a good relationship with France, but had a bad deal from England on trading. Now, it seems, England would rather go down the road of buying electricity from France instead of recognising that Scotland could supply it with safe electrical power.
Not much has changed over time with Anglo-Scottish relations.
It's has always been the politicians in London wot are to blame supported by the self seeking Scottish variety.
I accept history is important though not as important as looking to the future. However I am much irked when I hear contributors to the talk shows spout of how poor Scotland was pre union of parliaments when the opposite was true.The £20,000 of bribe money had to be borrowed from queen Ann with a promise to pay it back when the Scottish treasury was emptied. I would highly recommend the book "Scotlands Ruine" an eye opener.
#
2012-02-17 11:24
Is it an urban myth that Scots had the option of dual nationality with France untill fairly recently?
#
2012-02-17 11:27
No, that is true. If I recall correctly, all Scots were afforded honorary French citizenship, up until sometime around 1900.
#
2012-02-17 11:45
Quoting uilleam_beag:
Be a great wind up to some, if this could be revived...
No, that is true. If I recall correctly, all Scots were afforded honorary French citizenship, up until sometime around 1900.
Be a great wind up to some, if this could be revived...
#
2012-02-17 12:05
I just double-checked. It wasn't revoked by the French parliament until 1906.
en.wikipedia.org/.../...
en.wikipedia.org/.../...
#
2012-02-17 17:26
Quoting Old Smokey:
Looks like England and France are "stronger and safer" together in the event of a nuclear catastrophe.
Timing of the Nuclear Power station deal with France is interesting, in that it was kept back until after Cameron's visit to Scotland
Cameron spoke of 'better together', surely that better together includes working together developing renewables and to take renewable energy from Scotland. Now what we see is that England do not want to be dependable on anyone, including Scotland
Looks like England and France are "stronger and safer" together in the event of a nuclear catastrophe.
#
2012-02-17 10:50
I found the list of related topics at the bottom of the story quite illuminating:
Westminster
Liberal Democrat party (Britain)
Labour party (Britain)
Conservative party (Britain)
England
British politics
World politics
So, an article on (admittedly) English attitudes towards a referendum on Scottish independence, but it's not related to Scotland, Scottish politics or the SNP.
Westminster
Liberal Democrat party (Britain)
Labour party (Britain)
Conservative party (Britain)
England
British politics
World politics
So, an article on (admittedly) English attitudes towards a referendum on Scottish independence, but it's not related to Scotland, Scottish politics or the SNP.
#
2012-02-17 11:08
@Fungus
The whole article leads the reader inevitably to the conclusion that the best possible solution to the West Lothian Question is for Scotland to have independence, but it completely ignores that solution and gets into all sorts of difficulties about coalitions, English parliaments and electoral arithmetic. Then it wants to further muddy the waters by suggesting that England should also be included in the referendum.
As you have suggested, the whole article is laughable, not to mention ludicrous,
The whole article leads the reader inevitably to the conclusion that the best possible solution to the West Lothian Question is for Scotland to have independence, but it completely ignores that solution and gets into all sorts of difficulties about coalitions, English parliaments and electoral arithmetic. Then it wants to further muddy the waters by suggesting that England should also be included in the referendum.
As you have suggested, the whole article is laughable, not to mention ludicrous,
#
2012-02-17 10:22
I love the idea being bandied about by unionists is that the BBC helps bind the UK together, and if we became independent we would lose something precious in the BBC.
Now losing the BBC is seen by many Scots now as being positive because it is an organisation that no one now trusts.
Now losing the BBC is seen by many Scots now as being positive because it is an organisation that no one now trusts.
#
2012-02-17 10:54
and the follow on to that is ..... that the BBC has a vested interest in keeping the union
#
2012-02-17 11:19
Quoting Mac:
But you winnae get Eastenders!
But then you winnae pay the liscense fee!
I love the idea being bandied about by unionists is that the BBC helps bind the UK together, and if we became independent we would lose something precious in the BBC.
Now losing the BBC is seen by many Scots now as being positive because it is an organisation that no one now trusts.
But you winnae get Eastenders!
But then you winnae pay the liscense fee!
#
2012-02-17 14:30
Belive it or not but one of the letters to the Herald today, Friday, said exactly that. We would not get Eastenders or Strictly come dancing and STV would not be able to afford Downton Abbey. Bliss it would be to be alive if that was true!
#
2012-02-17 14:54
Mac, the BBC may bind something but certainly does not bind the UK together. :D
If Cameron was serious about keeping the UK together he would disband the BBC tomorrow!
If Cameron was serious about keeping the UK together he would disband the BBC tomorrow!
#
2012-02-17 10:51
Quoting Legerwood:
To be fair the locations and panels are chosen in advance. The location was in Nottingham, I'd expect a full or mainly English panel. The fact this was a big story today is happenstance.
I'm sure we should be happy that some of them are trying to discuss the issue, even if they seem to be well behind us in the level of complexity of the discussion.
I just caught the last few minutes of the programme and heard the older woman on the panel stick up for Scotland determining its own future. I think someone in the audience had asked why it should only be Scots who voted in the referendum and she was replying to that. Also noticed that she was interrupted by the Chairman before she could finish her point.
Yes somebody mentioned there were no Scots on the panel but then Dimbleby laughed.
To be fair the locations and panels are chosen in advance. The location was in Nottingham, I'd expect a full or mainly English panel. The fact this was a big story today is happenstance.
I'm sure we should be happy that some of them are trying to discuss the issue, even if they seem to be well behind us in the level of complexity of the discussion.
#
2012-02-17 12:46
Quoting Jester:
Except that dear Dimbers is at great pains to point out as he has done to Nicola Sturgeon when they were in Glasgow, that she must remember that this is a UK programme and that only UK specific points may be raised. The history of this programme and the chair are a sham and a joke. Hypocrisy and anti Scottish racism reeks from it.
Quoting Legerwood:I just caught the last few minutes of the programme and heard the older woman on the panel stick up for Scotland determining its own future. I think someone in the audience had asked why it should only be Scots who voted in the referendum and she was replying to that. Also noticed that she was interrupted by the Chairman before she could finish her point.
Yes somebody mentioned there were no Scots on the panel but then Dimbleby laughed.
To be fair the locations and panels are chosen in advance. The location was in Nottingham, I'd expect a full or mainly English panel. The fact this was a big story today is happenstance.
I'm sure we should be happy that some of them are trying to discuss the issue, even if they seem to be well behind us in the level of complexity of the discussion.
Except that dear Dimbers is at great pains to point out as he has done to Nicola Sturgeon when they were in Glasgow, that she must remember that this is a UK programme and that only UK specific points may be raised. The history of this programme and the chair are a sham and a joke. Hypocrisy and anti Scottish racism reeks from it.
#
2012-02-17 13:45
Quoting Jester:
I agree. The UK media seem to be trawling the archives and pulling out the old devolution arguments from the seventies - (not least "too wee, too poor, too stupid"). The "stronger together" argument, seat at the table with the big boys, won the battle against fascism together is pure British imperial romanticism.
It's like the fall of the Soviet Empire never happened, new confident, small states like Estonia, Latvia, etc never regained their sovereignty, never modernised old, outdated political and economic institutions and then took their
places in international society via the UN, EU, NATO, etc. The Czechs and Slovaks never had a velvet divorce and amicably went their own ways, while still co-operating in matters of mutual interest like two grown-up, sovereign states.
Meanwhile, the Scots got poorer, as our vast oil wealth was siphoned off to pay for imperial delusions via Trident, aircraft carriers and macho posturing to impress the Americans with power projection, pulling us into several illegal wars and dodgy foreign adventures along the way!
Quoting Legerwood:Yes somebody mentioned there were no Scots on the panel but then Dimbleby laughed.
To be fair the locations and panels are chosen in advance. The location was in Nottingham, I'd expect a full or mainly English panel. The fact this was a big story today is happenstance.
I'm sure we should be happy that some of them are trying to discuss the issue, even if they seem to be well behind us in the level of complexity of the discussion.
I agree. The UK media seem to be trawling the archives and pulling out the old devolution arguments from the seventies - (not least "too wee, too poor, too stupid"). The "stronger together" argument, seat at the table with the big boys, won the battle against fascism together is pure British imperial romanticism.
It's like the fall of the Soviet Empire never happened, new confident, small states like Estonia, Latvia, etc never regained their sovereignty, never modernised old, outdated political and economic institutions and then took their
places in international society via the UN, EU, NATO, etc. The Czechs and Slovaks never had a velvet divorce and amicably went their own ways, while still co-operating in matters of mutual interest like two grown-up, sovereign states.
Meanwhile, the Scots got poorer, as our vast oil wealth was siphoned off to pay for imperial delusions via Trident, aircraft carriers and macho posturing to impress the Americans with power projection, pulling us into several illegal wars and dodgy foreign adventures along the way!
#
2012-02-17 14:34
Jester,
I actually do not have any problem with the audience or panel discussing Independence since it will have consequences for the rUK and they need to have a debate about what form the rUK will take after independence.
The comment I made about someone saying there were no Scots on the panel was actually in response to someone else who raised it.
I actually do not have any problem with the audience or panel discussing Independence since it will have consequences for the rUK and they need to have a debate about what form the rUK will take after independence.
The comment I made about someone saying there were no Scots on the panel was actually in response to someone else who raised it.
#
2012-02-17 10:52
Pace dogbite 2012-02-17 08:57
Wark on BBC talking about Camerons visit. This is a public health warning
I seriously misread that!
Wark on BBC talking about Camerons visit. This is a public health warning
I seriously misread that!
#
2012-02-17 11:44
When is Dave coming back to Scotland for his next trip? The more times he comes here the better, because if anyone has any doubts about the pro-Unionist argument he helps expose it and shoots down his own bumpties arguments!
Suddenly the Unionist parties are making "promises" for after the Referendum but I thought the "Calman Commission" which they all got together on was there new improved Devolution? The Scotland Act going through Westminster is their all new singing and dancing Unionist position for the future of Scotland so why is no body challenging them on this?
Suddenly the Unionist parties are making "promises" for after the Referendum but I thought the "Calman Commission" which they all got together on was there new improved Devolution? The Scotland Act going through Westminster is their all new singing and dancing Unionist position for the future of Scotland so why is no body challenging them on this?
#
2012-02-17 11:55
There is a photo of Cameron posing before that iconic Scott's Porage Oats advert on
bellacaledonia.org.uk/
Invites a caption, surely?
"Cameron Comes to Scotland and Gets Stoned".
bellacaledonia.org.uk/
Invites a caption, surely?
"Cameron Comes to Scotland and Gets Stoned".
#
2012-02-17 12:01
I wonder who writes Cameron's scripts?
For him to appear in Scotland at a porridge factory, sitting at a table having a plateful, smacks of the Brigadoon view of Scotland. Unbelievable!
I am sure porridge is important, but really. Someone is taking the p*ss. Another scene from the pantomime.
For him to appear in Scotland at a porridge factory, sitting at a table having a plateful, smacks of the Brigadoon view of Scotland. Unbelievable!
I am sure porridge is important, but really. Someone is taking the p*ss. Another scene from the pantomime.
#
2012-02-17 12:11
And the guy sitting beside him looks anything but amused I am sure he knew when he found out he had been picked for this role that his street cred had gone forever
Caption?
Fuel Up If Going Fishing For Salmond In Scotland
Caption?
Fuel Up If Going Fishing For Salmond In Scotland
#
2012-02-17 13:22
I guess he could have visited a Whisky distillery instead J Wil. Naw on second thoughts if he did that we would all think he was p*ssed when he was talking to the great? BBC afterwards. Come to think about it he was talking p*ss when talking to the BBC. Did someone put some whisky into his porridge? :D
#
2012-02-17 12:08
Jamie Maxwell’s article in the New Statesman by and large reflect my thoughts on Cameron’s visit to his North British region.
Cameron's state of the union flop:
newstatesman.com/.../...
“ Even before David Cameron delivered his speech in defence of the union in Edinburgh this afternoon, the Scottish National Party had already dismissed it as "threadbare and outdated". In retrospect, the nationalists could have added "ill-informed" and "underwhelming" and they still would have fallen slightly short of the mark. “
He goes on to say
“ Cameron's decision to emphasise the common historical experiences of the Scots and the English will be seen as an indication of the intellectual weakness of unionism. Alex Salmond knows that the referendum will be won or lost on political and economic, rather than sentimental, grounds. Unionists should be worried that their leaders have not yet come to the same realisation. “
Aye all froth and bubbles and not much body… hey waiter get me another beer this ones to fizzy.
Cameron's state of the union flop:
newstatesman.com/.../...
“ Even before David Cameron delivered his speech in defence of the union in Edinburgh this afternoon, the Scottish National Party had already dismissed it as "threadbare and outdated". In retrospect, the nationalists could have added "ill-informed" and "underwhelming" and they still would have fallen slightly short of the mark. “
He goes on to say
“ Cameron's decision to emphasise the common historical experiences of the Scots and the English will be seen as an indication of the intellectual weakness of unionism. Alex Salmond knows that the referendum will be won or lost on political and economic, rather than sentimental, grounds. Unionists should be worried that their leaders have not yet come to the same realisation. “
Aye all froth and bubbles and not much body… hey waiter get me another beer this ones to fizzy.
#
2012-02-17 12:11
Perhaps if Mr, Cameron was to, maybe, say, sign a pledge card stating that we would be definately getting more powers after a no vote then....nah that won't work either.
#
2012-02-17 12:12
131 new SNP members in the last 24 hours according to Peter Murrell on Twitter, so well done to Mr Cameron!
#
2012-02-17 13:24
Does any one know if an invitation to "Call me Dave" to make a return visit has been sent yet? :D
#
2012-02-17 12:14
The positive vision of the union:
David Cameron eating shortbread at a shortbread factory
David Cameron wearing a kilt at a kilt factory
David Cameron playing the pipes at a bagpipe makers
David Cameron having a pint of Tenants at Wellpark
David Cameron enjoying a tot of whisky in Leven
The list is endless...
David Cameron eating shortbread at a shortbread factory
David Cameron wearing a kilt at a kilt factory
David Cameron playing the pipes at a bagpipe makers
David Cameron having a pint of Tenants at Wellpark
David Cameron enjoying a tot of whisky in Leven
The list is endless...
#
2012-02-17 12:27
David Cameron dressed in Harris tweeds enjoying a traditional grouse shoot at a Highland estate ... oh, wait a minute, better scratch that one, chaps.
#
2012-02-17 12:33
Does his father-in-law not have deer on Jura? he could hunt Scabbling aroon on his belly is just made for him
#
2012-02-17 12:47
David Cameron wearing a Ranger's shellsuit and eating a deep fried Mars Bar outside the Broo.
#
2012-02-17 13:41
I saw three interviews with Cameron on the BBC. The first backdrop was the porridge factory, the second the Forth Railway Bridge, the third , ah you're ahead of me, Edinburgh Castle. Probably all thought through by London based PR types from the list of Scottish cliche images. They just don't get it.
#
2012-02-17 14:51
Whit?
Cameron was in Scotland yesterday!
Dangnabit!
They kept that quiet didn't they? :D
Cameron was in Scotland yesterday!
Dangnabit!
They kept that quiet didn't they? :D
#
2012-02-17 15:01
Cameron is a laugh a minute. Today he is in Paris with Sarkozy, putting over the idea that it is good for friends to have a tiff. After his big fall out with Europe he is in full scale back peddling mode.
I also wonder if the deal he is striking in France is because he has personally compromised UK interests and now he is paying out of the public purse to make it up to Europe.
I also wonder if the deal he is striking in France is because he has personally compromised UK interests and now he is paying out of the public purse to make it up to Europe.
#
2012-02-17 19:11
Quoting iReferee:
How about a game with GRFC . should do the trick
The positive vision of the union:
David Cameron eating shortbread at a shortbread factory
David Cameron wearing a kilt at a kilt factory
David Cameron playing the pipes at a bagpipe makers
David Cameron having a pint of Tenants at Wellpark
David Cameron enjoying a tot of whisky in Leven
The list is endless...
How about a game with GRFC . should do the trick
#
2012-02-17 12:24
I just don't get what Cameron is trying to say. According to him we shouldn't have a second question because it muddies the waters but his proposal is totally clear:
Yes - Vote for Independence
No - Vote not for Independence but for something else, maybe, or maybe the status quo, maybe
Yes - Vote for Independence
No - Vote not for Independence but for something else, maybe, or maybe the status quo, maybe
#
2012-02-17 12:34
The second question will be for discussion in our second home when we visit no doubt
#
2012-02-17 19:12
Quoting iReferee:
My mother used to say ,don't take sweeties from strangers
I just don't get what Cameron is trying to say. According to him we shouldn't have a second question because it muddies the waters but his proposal is totally clear:
Yes - Vote for Independence
No - Vote not for Independence but for something else, maybe, or maybe the status quo, maybe
My mother used to say ,don't take sweeties from strangers
#
2012-02-18 02:20
David Cameron and the pan-unionist alliance should have a new slogan for their anti-independence campaign. How about "Keep England's Influence Controlling Holyrood" (otherwise known as KEICH)?
They seem to be talking a load of it these days.
They seem to be talking a load of it these days.
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2012-02-17 12:44
Or maybe this:
independent.co.uk/.../...
By the way look at the next cartoon in the slide… we are all in this togeva… Aye
independent.co.uk/.../...
By the way look at the next cartoon in the slide… we are all in this togeva… Aye
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2012-02-17 12:50
So call me Dave has visited Paris 8 times since becoming PM he cares so much about Scotland he's been twice
Sooking up to Sarkosy at the moment who has corrected him twice in his first minute
Sooking up to Sarkosy at the moment who has corrected him twice in his first minute
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2012-02-17 14:03
mato, A.S. is pacing D.C.'s visits. If he comes up too often too early on in the campaign then the S.N.P. membership will "top out" too soon. Better we ration his visits. This way the S.N.P. membership will continue to grow but in a more manageable manner, plus Tory H.Q. will not be able to cotton on to the effects of his visit so easily.
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2012-02-17 13:13
Whhoooaaaafffff ! Dang, but the comments boards are lively oot there today. Tin hats all round and extra thick socks. Still all the big rags are worth a look for a good laugh. I think some of the commentators had their editorial written before attending the speeches you know. They certainly saw and heard a different speech to the one we're talkin' aboot. :D
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2012-02-17 13:31
David Cameron is clearly confused himself, and has had to concede that he is not going to be able to dampen the Scottish spirit, with claims of better, stronger. He is now saying that devo max, might be an option, although that was not the words he used.
ramblingally.blogspot.com/.../...
David Cameron is now in a very difficult position of conceding to his government that, it is inevitable that Scotland will be independent, but he is determined to not let it happen on his watch.
ramblingally.blogspot.com/.../...
David Cameron is now in a very difficult position of conceding to his government that, it is inevitable that Scotland will be independent, but he is determined to not let it happen on his watch.
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2012-02-17 13:40
herald
There is obviously something wrong there I posted yesterday and that was the figures then ??Too many ayes maybe
There is obviously something wrong there I posted yesterday and that was the figures then ??Too many ayes maybe
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2012-02-17 13:34
Another 131 new SNP members since Call me Dave made his big speech, according to Peter Murrell on Twitter.
Will ye no' come back again (and again and again)...? Independence will be in the bag by 2014.
Will ye no' come back again (and again and again)...? Independence will be in the bag by 2014.
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2012-02-17 13:35
Quote:
But unionist commentators are already busy denying that Cameron offered any "extra powers" at all. Granted, I refer to rabid Britnat ranters such as Alan Cochrane and Iain Martin. But I see no effort on Cameron's part to contradict them.
www.referendumdebate.com/.../
Accusing the Tory PM of lacking a clear vision of a Scotland post referendum, Professor Curtice insisted the Unionist campaign needed to define what extra powers were on offer.
But unionist commentators are already busy denying that Cameron offered any "extra powers" at all. Granted, I refer to rabid Britnat ranters such as Alan Cochrane and Iain Martin. But I see no effort on Cameron's part to contradict them.
www.referendumdebate.com/.../
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2012-02-17 13:57
The Scottish Government has laid out many of it's post independence aims in good faith---the trouble is the Unionists pretend not to know this,or are hoodwinking the Scottish people plus their own voters.
They are living in a pre Google 1950's bubble.
PLEASE take the trouble to Search,and ye shall find.
Cameron makes a vague proposal for more devolved powers, the same day that the House of Lords says that there should be no more devolution!!
The Unionist campaign is,and will,by definition remain shambolic.
Cameron eating porridge,and the Labour Party's Scottish branch hiding in the garden shed to avoid answering specifics---they're torn between the common sense of self-determination of nations and their cast in stone attitude to a Union well past it's sell by date.
They are living in a pre Google 1950's bubble.
PLEASE take the trouble to Search,and ye shall find.
Cameron makes a vague proposal for more devolved powers, the same day that the House of Lords says that there should be no more devolution!!
The Unionist campaign is,and will,by definition remain shambolic.
Cameron eating porridge,and the Labour Party's Scottish branch hiding in the garden shed to avoid answering specifics---they're torn between the common sense of self-determination of nations and their cast in stone attitude to a Union well past it's sell by date.
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2012-02-17 14:10
For those with an interest in polls there is one currently running over on the Scottish Times.
www.scottishtimes.org/
I just have one question about all these polls.
Who is the "Don't Know"? These is always one!
At the moment the voting is really, really close.
YES 90% (85 votes)
NO 9% (8 votes)
DON'T KNOW 1% (1 vote)
www.scottishtimes.org/
I just have one question about all these polls.
Who is the "Don't Know"? These is always one!
At the moment the voting is really, really close.
YES 90% (85 votes)
NO 9% (8 votes)
DON'T KNOW 1% (1 vote)
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2012-02-17 14:32
Hi Arby, glad to see you back… the darkened room has not been the same since you have been gone.
Hope you are okay.
I was a bit surprised earlier in the week to see someone blogging on The Scotsman with your moniker. Thought it may have been you.
Hope you are okay.
I was a bit surprised earlier in the week to see someone blogging on The Scotsman with your moniker. Thought it may have been you.
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2012-02-17 15:06
What annoys me is that the media is still peddling the tall tale that independence polls show that the yes votes are still running at 34%.
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2012-02-17 15:28
Just wait till we have the result of the referendum J Wil. The media will running around like a bunch of headless chickens screaming about how can all these polls be so wrong. "The polls kept telling us the Scots didn't want independence but yet here we are with an independent Scotland. How can the polls be so wrong?" :D
The problem for the media is that they just do not "get" Scotland. They would rather believe all the hype, lies and misinformation that is constantly being spouted about Scottish independence than actually believe independence is coming.
I think they have their own version of the "Darkened Room". Unfortunately theirs is not so high tech as ours and they are having tremendous difficulty finding the door that will open to let them out.
The problem for the media is that they just do not "get" Scotland. They would rather believe all the hype, lies and misinformation that is constantly being spouted about Scottish independence than actually believe independence is coming.
I think they have their own version of the "Darkened Room". Unfortunately theirs is not so high tech as ours and they are having tremendous difficulty finding the door that will open to let them out.
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2012-02-17 15:48
There's only one poll that matters, in 2014. And I'd like to bet that not a single 'yes' voter today will change their mind before then. Wouldn't bet on the 'nos' holding firm though.
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2012-02-17 16:05
The problem for the NO campaign is that I can't see the three coalition parties sticking together for over two years. At some point, sooner rather than later in my view, there is going to be a rather massive split between Labour, Conservative and Lib Dem parties. At least one of them is going to move away from their concert single front approach. At that point in time it will be all over for the NO campaign. They might as well pack up shop and go home to Westminster and start working out how best to come to an amicable agreement with the S.N.P. on how to arrange the post independence settlement.
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2012-02-17 14:44
Cameron has just announced a joint pact with France about sharing resources and co-operating to build a pilotless drone type aircraft.
So much for the argument then that an Independent Scotland would not get orders for rUK warships because we would be a foreign country and they do not source such things from a foreign country. Aye Right.
He has just cut the legs out from under that argument.
So much for the argument then that an Independent Scotland would not get orders for rUK warships because we would be a foreign country and they do not source such things from a foreign country. Aye Right.
He has just cut the legs out from under that argument.
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2012-02-17 15:05
Legerwood
“ Cameron has just announced a joint pact with France about sharing resources and co-operating to build a pilotless drone type aircraft. “
Funnily enough the only place in the UK fit to test drones is in Scotland at Benbecula in the western isles… the next best site in Europe is at Vidsel in Sweden which is shut down the biggest part of the year due to their long harsh winters.
“ Cameron has just announced a joint pact with France about sharing resources and co-operating to build a pilotless drone type aircraft. “
Funnily enough the only place in the UK fit to test drones is in Scotland at Benbecula in the western isles… the next best site in Europe is at Vidsel in Sweden which is shut down the biggest part of the year due to their long harsh winters.
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2012-02-17 15:54
What concerns me is the massive cost of new nuclear power stations for England.
Where is the money coming from? Scotland's oil revenues I would suggest.
The pumps pump more furiously as they realise they have lost Scotland.
Where is the money coming from? Scotland's oil revenues I would suggest.
The pumps pump more furiously as they realise they have lost Scotland.
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2012-02-17 15:59
Quoting Roll_On_2011:
Didn't the MoD close that base down? Part of the Respect Agenda - sorry, Defence Review.
Oops wee bit more research, saved for the NATION!
guardian.co.uk/.../...
Legerwood
Funnily enough the only place in the UK fit to test drones is in Scotland at Benbecula in the western isles…
Didn't the MoD close that base down? Part of the Respect Agenda - sorry, Defence Review.
Oops wee bit more research, saved for the NATION!
guardian.co.uk/.../...
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2012-02-17 17:58
Yay........ Now lets start building drones with all that venture capital Cameron says we can get cos we're part of the union ....... ha ha ha ha ... sorry!!
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2012-02-17 16:00
Here are a few examples of how other news stations reported Cameron's visit to Scotland yesterday.
www.presstv.ir/.../227158.html
aljazeera.com/.../...
euronews.net/.../...
www.presstv.ir/.../227158.html
aljazeera.com/.../...
euronews.net/.../...
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2012-02-17 16:31
Nice little poll on euronews
www.euronews.net/.../#poll_932
Standing at
Yes - 71%
No - 22%
Dont Know 7%
As with any online polls, has to be taken with that consideration, but none the less, heading the right direction
www.euronews.net/.../#poll_932
Standing at
Yes - 71%
No - 22%
Dont Know 7%
As with any online polls, has to be taken with that consideration, but none the less, heading the right direction
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2012-02-17 17:02
I keep asking this question but no one seems to know the answer.
"Who are these Don't Knows?"
Some one must know who they are. :D
"Who are these Don't Knows?"
Some one must know who they are. :D
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2012-02-17 17:26
I know a Don't Know but I'm working on her. Not easy as she's a natural Tory but voted SNP at the last election as a grudging acknowledgement that things were going well in Scotland.
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2012-02-17 19:29
Quoting Arbroath1320:
It's the Ken twins Dinnae and Wilnae
I keep asking this question but no one seems to know the answer.
"Who are these Don't Knows?"
Some one must know who they are. :D
It's the Ken twins Dinnae and Wilnae
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2012-02-17 16:41
Quoting Arbroath1320:
From the report in the first link:
"...the state-run BBC...".
Lest we forget what the rest of the world's media already know! Impartial - my backside!
Here are a few examples of how other news stations reported Cameron's visit to Scotland yesterday.
www.presstv.ir/.../227158.html
aljazeera.com/.../...
euronews.net/.../...
From the report in the first link:
"...the state-run BBC...".
Lest we forget what the rest of the world's media already know! Impartial - my backside!
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2012-02-17 16:03
Ok I might be being silly here but what are the chances that other bodies outside the UK are telling Cameron that he has to give Scotland more power again. Is it likely or possible that such conversations are taking place, similar to the ones relating to Major and a Scottish parliament.
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2012-02-17 16:22
This is the headline I like best from euronews His friends in Europe might consider him a rather weak PM who has to resort to pleading
I can just imagine him on his knees in front of Alex Please Please Eck be my friend don't throw me to the wolves (his backbenchers)
‘
Let’s Stick Together’ UK PM pleads with Scotland
I can just imagine him on his knees in front of Alex Please Please Eck be my friend don't throw me to the wolves (his backbenchers)
‘
Let’s Stick Together’ UK PM pleads with Scotland
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2012-02-17 18:35
Yup, that word, "pleads", also struck me.
I also liked the poll on the bottom of the page:
Should Scotland become independent of the United Kingdom?
Yes 74%
No 19%
Don't know 7%
(Not that internet polls like that are very scientific, just a bit of fun.)
I also liked the poll on the bottom of the page:
Should Scotland become independent of the United Kingdom?
Yes 74%
No 19%
Don't know 7%
(Not that internet polls like that are very scientific, just a bit of fun.)
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2012-02-17 16:30
Cameron's problem is that Scotland was never high on his list of priorities. When he took the keys of 10 Downing Street, Scotland never entered his mind.
But Alec Salmond has been living and breathing this stuff for 30 years or more. He knows the history, the legal arguments, the economic, and the social case, while Cameron has never had to devote any thinking to any of them. Cameron is struggling to put forward any cohesive argument or approach, and frankly it shows.
His schoolboy jibes last year in the House of Commons were ill-judged, and will be replayed at every opportunity.
He's on a sticky wicket, of his own making.
But Alec Salmond has been living and breathing this stuff for 30 years or more. He knows the history, the legal arguments, the economic, and the social case, while Cameron has never had to devote any thinking to any of them. Cameron is struggling to put forward any cohesive argument or approach, and frankly it shows.
His schoolboy jibes last year in the House of Commons were ill-judged, and will be replayed at every opportunity.
He's on a sticky wicket, of his own making.
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2012-02-17 16:38
Did anyone notice the coat of arms on the lectern when Cameron was speaking under Edinburgh Castle? It was the English coat of arms, not the Scottish one!
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2012-02-17 16:58
Oh dear. Some one will lose their head over that no doubt. There again we are talking about the English Tory party here aren't we? After all don't we now have a Scottish Tory party so I suppose he can't be seen with the Scottish coat of arms on the lectern. That would just imply that he was head of the Scottish Tories which we all know he isn't, right? :D
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2012-02-17 18:06
Slightly O/T: Could someone please explain what this 'third question' is - as far as I'm aware there are only two:
1 Do you want to be Independent - Yes/No
2 - Devo max (if someone could also explain the detail of this Dave) Yes?No
1 Do you want to be Independent - Yes/No
2 - Devo max (if someone could also explain the detail of this Dave) Yes?No
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2012-02-17 18:37
Status quo??
Not that anybody knows what that is, since the Scotland Bill is still making its way through the legislative machine.
Not that anybody knows what that is, since the Scotland Bill is still making its way through the legislative machine.
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2012-02-17 17:15
If you are referring to this
static.guim.co.uk/.../...
then it is the coat of arms of the UK. The English one has two lions. The Scottish one has two unicorns. Hence, the UK one has one of each. Plus, there is the issue of royal coat of arms which I am not very familiar with.
However, he IS the PM of the UK; the usage is proper I believe.
static.guim.co.uk/.../...
then it is the coat of arms of the UK. The English one has two lions. The Scottish one has two unicorns. Hence, the UK one has one of each. Plus, there is the issue of royal coat of arms which I am not very familiar with.
However, he IS the PM of the UK; the usage is proper I believe.
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2012-02-17 23:26
Aye the proper protocols are always used!
Oh! there's that other thread . . Wi the cardinal tho'. .
Still, can't get it right every time.
Oh! there's that other thread . . Wi the cardinal tho'. .
Still, can't get it right every time.
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2012-02-18 01:39
That is indeed the coat of arms I refer to. There is an English version and a Scottish version; the English version has the three lions In the top left and bottom right quarters of the shield, while the Scottish version has the lion rampant in those two quarters. The crest on DC's lectern has the English lions in two quarters.
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2012-02-17 17:11
My mother is a don't know. She is one of the 'vote for a donkey, as long as it wears a Labour badge' type of voter.
My dad was converted to independence years ago, and i think my mum might be ready to take the leap.
What pushed her?
Dave boy supping porridge! :)
Do they think we are a bunch of eedjit!, she said.
My dad was converted to independence years ago, and i think my mum might be ready to take the leap.
What pushed her?
Dave boy supping porridge! :)
Do they think we are a bunch of eedjit!, she said.
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2012-02-18 22:05
Quoting Vincent McDee:
All right now.Quoting Juteman:My mother is a don't know. She is one of the 'vote for a donkey, as long as it wears a Labour badge' type of voter.
My dad was converted to independence years ago, and i think my mum might be ready to take the leap.
What pushed her?
Dave boy supping porridge! :)
Do they think we are a bunch of eedjit!, she said.
I bet he put sugar on it too.
That's your result.
Do not forget to go to vote on Independence Referendum day, please.
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2012-02-17 17:20
David Cameron has demonstrated that he really does not have the first clue about the people of Scotland. We all know he does not want Scottish Independence and we all know why.
ramblingally.blogspot.com/.../...
ramblingally.blogspot.com/.../...
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2012-02-17 17:49
The day after the election last May when Alex Salmond articulated Scotlands desire to seek self-determination it effectively drew a line in the sand. Any actions taken by the UK government that has implications for Scotland implicit or implied must be agreed with the Scots parliament or be judged null and void.
The process towards the referendum must be respected by Westminster and no interference or manipulation will be tolerated by the international community.
That is the law that the UK signed up to and as such, must obey. So far Westminster has broken just about every rule in the book. The case is made.
Now that in respect of the referendum itself that the Council of Europe and the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe has been alerted to the schennanigans of Westminster it is only a matter of time before Cameron gets the tap on the shoulder.
Salmond should be keeping a daily dossier which I am sure he is.
The process towards the referendum must be respected by Westminster and no interference or manipulation will be tolerated by the international community.
That is the law that the UK signed up to and as such, must obey. So far Westminster has broken just about every rule in the book. The case is made.
Now that in respect of the referendum itself that the Council of Europe and the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe has been alerted to the schennanigans of Westminster it is only a matter of time before Cameron gets the tap on the shoulder.
Salmond should be keeping a daily dossier which I am sure he is.
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2012-02-17 17:54
My last post must have got lost in the ether.
My old mum is almost ready to make the leap. She is from the "vote for a donkey as long it is wearing a Labour badge" generation.
The sight of Daveboy supping porridge did it.
"Do they think we are all eedgits?!" :)
My old mum is almost ready to make the leap. She is from the "vote for a donkey as long it is wearing a Labour badge" generation.
The sight of Daveboy supping porridge did it.
"Do they think we are all eedgits?!" :)
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2012-02-17 17:56
My favourite image is Cameron and his generals looking at a map. No doubt they were talking about re-aligning the border and which route to take into Scotland.
Freedom
Freedom
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2012-02-17 18:07
Quoting hadrianswall:
While they are at it they might also have a look at the scandal of the Scottish- English Maritime Border.
www.ejil.org/pdfs/12/1/505.pdf
craigmurray.org.uk/.../...
This has to be addressed.
My favourite image is Cameron and his generals looking at a map. No doubt they were talking about re-aligning the border and which route to take into Scotland.
Freedom
While they are at it they might also have a look at the scandal of the Scottish- English Maritime Border.
www.ejil.org/pdfs/12/1/505.pdf
craigmurray.org.uk/.../...
This has to be addressed.
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2012-02-17 18:40
I liked the image of Cameron & co. staring at the almost totally yellow election map of Scotland behind Alex Salmond.
But my favourite is the BBC typo.
Cameron: United Kingdom is a previous thing.
datestamp 13:14
Somebody posted a link to a screen cap, sorry I can't find it now.
But my favourite is the BBC typo.
Cameron: United Kingdom is a previous thing.
datestamp 13:14
Somebody posted a link to a screen cap, sorry I can't find it now.
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2012-02-17 19:04
Yeah, I got it yesterday, made a screen cap of my own & printed a nice little poster for myself.
I know the letters v and c are right next to each other on a keyboard but maybe it wasn't a simple typo but a bold statement by some disgruntled BBC employee?
I know the letters v and c are right next to each other on a keyboard but maybe it wasn't a simple typo but a bold statement by some disgruntled BBC employee?
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2012-02-17 21:11
Yes that's a right spooky coincidence the combination of the misspelling 'previous' and the time '1314'!
I'll have another £25 on a yes vote I think.
I'll have another £25 on a yes vote I think.
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2012-02-17 20:55
I like the idea that a large part of England is located north of Hadrian's wall.
Hadrian's is the wall that great play is made of by English commentators who would like to close off the border at the wall, effectively ceding part of England to Scotland.
Hadrian's is the wall that great play is made of by English commentators who would like to close off the border at the wall, effectively ceding part of England to Scotland.
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2012-02-17 18:23
Latest poll standings as of 17:15.
SCOTTISH TIMES
YES 95% (157votes)
NO 5% (8votes)
DON'T KNOW 1% (1 vote)
EURONEWS
YES 74% (172 votes)
NO 19% (43 votes)
DON'T KNOW 7% (16 votes)
SCOTTISH TIMES
YES 95% (157votes)
NO 5% (8votes)
DON'T KNOW 1% (1 vote)
EURONEWS
YES 74% (172 votes)
NO 19% (43 votes)
DON'T KNOW 7% (16 votes)
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2012-02-17 18:27
Quoting Arbroath1320:
Great news, but in the words of the funniest man, Chic Murray, "How will it play in Inverkip?"
Keep working away, folks, and even Inverkip can be brought onside!
Latest poll standings as of 17:15.
SCOTTISH TIMES
YES 95% (157votes)
NO 5% (8votes)
DON'T KNOW 1% (1 vote)
EURONEWS
YES 74% (172 votes)
NO 19% (43 votes)
DON'T KNOW 7% (16 votes)
Great news, but in the words of the funniest man, Chic Murray, "How will it play in Inverkip?"
Keep working away, folks, and even Inverkip can be brought onside!
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2012-02-17 19:09
It was that yesterday So they must have stopped counting There's no way it would not have changed over 24hrs
Maybe they didn't like what they were seeing
Maybe they didn't like what they were seeing
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2012-02-17 19:20
Oh goody, does that mean 59% want to be like Finland, a small independent country of 5m!
Sorry, couldn't resist ;-)
Sorry, couldn't resist ;-)
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2012-02-17 18:59
Now, don't shoot me when I say that I think Cameron actually did a bit better than I thought he would. His speech (& whole visit) wasn't the total disaster I was expecting it to be.
That said, it was pretty underwhelming. His "head, heart and soul" just isn't convincing, especially not in Scotland, and the old "jam tomorrow" argument was ridiculous, if not downright insulting to Scottish people's intelligence.
Poor Cammy is painting himself in a corner, clearly stating that Scotland - and England - could go it alone. He just doesn't want that to happen because he wants to (pretend to) be a big boy on the world stage. (Well, that's the common unionist delusion, Cammy's not alone on that.)
He succeeded not only in shoring up the cause of Scottish Independence, but also in giving ammo to English devolutionists. Westminster's not a very good deal for England, either.
That said, it was pretty underwhelming. His "head, heart and soul" just isn't convincing, especially not in Scotland, and the old "jam tomorrow" argument was ridiculous, if not downright insulting to Scottish people's intelligence.
Poor Cammy is painting himself in a corner, clearly stating that Scotland - and England - could go it alone. He just doesn't want that to happen because he wants to (pretend to) be a big boy on the world stage. (Well, that's the common unionist delusion, Cammy's not alone on that.)
He succeeded not only in shoring up the cause of Scottish Independence, but also in giving ammo to English devolutionists. Westminster's not a very good deal for England, either.
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2012-02-17 20:29
I considered singing "knees up mother brown" and thought about the Bulldog Spirit for a nanosecond, but didn't bother..
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2012-02-17 23:44
lumilumi - His visit, if you look at his speech and TV soundbites, wasn't aimed at either independistas or his core unionist vote but at the devo max voter. It was all about more devolved jam tomorrow. Clever, but not clever enough.
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2012-02-17 19:03
You mean "Call me Dave" has a head, a heart AND a soul! WOW! I bet that'll be news to quite a few folk down south! :D
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2012-02-17 19:13
I have been having a wee anagram time to myself: "HEAD, HEART AND SOUL" gives some interesting results.
ETON is one that the Mods will let me post. Over to your imagination.
ETON is one that the Mods will let me post. Over to your imagination.
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2012-02-17 19:13
Yer tea no ready yet? I ken gid staff are hard tae come by but there is a limit tae whit ye should put up wi'
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2012-02-17 20:18
I'm no sure I want a third question anymore. At one time I thought it would be a good back up plan. Now I think we are going to do this and don't want it splitting the vote. AS was pushing for it yesterday is that a good idea?
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2012-02-17 23:36
Quoting Islegard:
Of course he'll push for it because he anticipates it wont be granted.
Then he'll turn to the people and say.
"Well everyone I did my best and look what the coalition & labour did. What are yea gonna do about it?"
and . . . voilà.
The devo whatevers mostly go with independence.
I hope!
I'm no sure I want a third question anymore. At one time I thought it would be a good back up plan. Now I think we are going to do this and don't want it splitting the vote. AS was pushing for it yesterday is that a good idea?
Of course he'll push for it because he anticipates it wont be granted.
Then he'll turn to the people and say.
"Well everyone I did my best and look what the coalition & labour did. What are yea gonna do about it?"
and . . . voilà.
The devo whatevers mostly go with independence.
I hope!
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2012-02-18 02:08
Dave I'm not so sure. I think they will take it to the wire. When they realise the game is up they will go for the third option.
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2012-02-18 23:56
Quoting Islegard:
But it will not be defined properly if it's left too late. It's a bit like jam tomorrow, they must parcel it up and present it to the electorate :
a wee bit jam
quite a lot of jam or
lots of jam.
I think 'The First Eck' has it covered.
Call me Dave is flying by the seat of his pants now!
Dave I'm not so sure. I think they will take it to the wire. When they realise the game is up they will go for the third option.
But it will not be defined properly if it's left too late. It's a bit like jam tomorrow, they must parcel it up and present it to the electorate :
a wee bit jam
quite a lot of jam or
lots of jam.
I think 'The First Eck' has it covered.
Call me Dave is flying by the seat of his pants now!
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2012-02-17 20:27
I have never thought wasting time on another question was a good idea. All their energies should be going into a straight y/n
#
2012-02-17 20:40
Very interesting. Looks like a major move on a chess board, a good move, as there are so many out there to be persuaded. Connecting with folk is the nub of the game. Wrongfooting opponents is also part of the game. Keep the goal of independence in sight.
#
2012-02-17 20:53
How do we reach folk here in Scotland? If you have to talk to folk through an anti SNP paper, a fitba paper, then this is a start. If Joan thinks this a strategy, then let's support her. We need all the outlets we can get, and the whole aim is independence. There are many routes to that aim.
#
2012-02-17 21:02
i will buy the paper just to read Joan's articles and to let the Record know that if they were to support Independence their sales figures would rocket.
#
2012-02-17 21:31
She must have weighed up the pro's and con's before deciding it was worth the effort.
Good luck to her. I'll read the spare copies in the canteen before spending any cash on the wrecker for a wee while longer though!
PS:
Where's the tangerine gone over the last few days. I don't think he did the big debate on the radio today. Genuinely hope he's not ill.
Also Foulkes seems to have gone quiet too.
Good luck to her. I'll read the spare copies in the canteen before spending any cash on the wrecker for a wee while longer though!
PS:
Where's the tangerine gone over the last few days. I don't think he did the big debate on the radio today. Genuinely hope he's not ill.
Also Foulkes seems to have gone quiet too.
#
2012-02-17 23:13
Where's the tangerine gone over the last few days. I don't think he did the big debate on the radio today. Genuinely hope he's not ill.
I guess his training programme with the pandas in Edinburgh Zoo has gone on longer than anticipated. :D
I guess his training programme with the pandas in Edinburgh Zoo has gone on longer than anticipated. :D
#
2012-02-17 22:29
I hope to meet Joan in a couple of weeks in Annan. There is an inaugural meeting to set up an Annan branch of the S.N.P. and I have been told that Joan will be present.
If I remember I might ask her about her move to the Daily Retard.
I am sure she must see this as a positive move. As many have said on this site in the past. There is no point in preaching to the converted. Perhaps Joan sees this move as a direct way of "speaking" to the unconvinced directly. Perhaps, through her column in the Retard she feels that she can put right the lies and misinformation that is perpetuated by the media.
More power to her elbow I say.
If I remember I might ask her about her move to the Daily Retard.
I am sure she must see this as a positive move. As many have said on this site in the past. There is no point in preaching to the converted. Perhaps Joan sees this move as a direct way of "speaking" to the unconvinced directly. Perhaps, through her column in the Retard she feels that she can put right the lies and misinformation that is perpetuated by the media.
More power to her elbow I say.
#
2012-02-17 20:40
OT
Perhaps if the following comes to fruition the Yoo Kay will help the Dundee games industry before Scotland departs circa 2014.
guardian.co.uk/.../...
Perhaps if the following comes to fruition the Yoo Kay will help the Dundee games industry before Scotland departs circa 2014.
guardian.co.uk/.../...
#
2012-02-17 21:22
Apologies if this has already been posted - Dave's speech in full, from the herald:
heraldscotland.com/.../...
Gaun yersels!
heraldscotland.com/.../...
Gaun yersels!
#
2012-02-17 21:56
Quoting nottooweeorstup id:
He certain played the old emotional fiddle on the heart strings but it was all too superficial.
The comments section is pretty civilised though in the main.
Apologies if this has already been posted - Dave's speech in full, from the herald:
heraldscotland.com/.../...
Gaun yersels!
He certain played the old emotional fiddle on the heart strings but it was all too superficial.
The comments section is pretty civilised though in the main.
#
2012-02-17 22:34
Certainly today Scotland has a currency which takes into account the needs of the Scottish economy as well as the rest of the United Kingdom when setting interest rates.
It's the way he tells 'em.
It's the way he tells 'em.
#
2012-02-17 21:23
OT
Alex talking about Rangers problems.
guardian.co.uk/.../...
I also placed this on the Daily Retard site and it appears it touched a raw nerve.
“ I don’t know who took your photo above but whoever it was got the angle wrong.
At times during the meeting Cammies eyes glazed over…. after all he was sat looking at the opposite wall, immediately behind Alex, on which was a very large map of Scotland……. COLOURED YELLOW. “
It was take out shortly after it appeared.
Alex talking about Rangers problems.
guardian.co.uk/.../...
I also placed this on the Daily Retard site and it appears it touched a raw nerve.
“ I don’t know who took your photo above but whoever it was got the angle wrong.
At times during the meeting Cammies eyes glazed over…. after all he was sat looking at the opposite wall, immediately behind Alex, on which was a very large map of Scotland……. COLOURED YELLOW. “
It was take out shortly after it appeared.
#
2012-02-17 21:44
RE:
'The First Eck' on the Rangers
Notice the inclusion of the word BITTER in the BBC headlines.
bbc.co.uk/.../...
---------------------------------------
Celtic FC has attacked Alex Salmond for saying the club needs bitter rivals Rangers to prosper.
----------------------------------------
They just love to twist it and light the blue touch paper!
AS never used that word I am sure.
Sorry blue touch paper!!
( Now I've done it too)
'The First Eck' on the Rangers
Notice the inclusion of the word BITTER in the BBC headlines.
bbc.co.uk/.../...
---------------------------------------
Celtic FC has attacked Alex Salmond for saying the club needs bitter rivals Rangers to prosper.
----------------------------------------
They just love to twist it and light the blue touch paper!
AS never used that word I am sure.
Sorry blue touch paper!!
( Now I've done it too)
#
2012-02-17 21:54
Welsh Pundits Critise Camerons Speech in Scotland
A Welsh view of Call me Daves visit
walesonline.co.uk/.../...
A Welsh view of Call me Daves visit
walesonline.co.uk/.../...
#
2012-02-17 22:38
Just read this piece, very interesting.
Just put my tuppence worth into their on line vote.
They have a straight question. "Would Scotland be better off outside the UK?"
YES 52.5%
NO 47.5%
It seems no matter where you go on the internet, where there are polls about Scotland and its impending independence all the polls appear to be going the same way. INDEPENDENCE for Scotland!
Just put my tuppence worth into their on line vote.
They have a straight question. "Would Scotland be better off outside the UK?"
YES 52.5%
NO 47.5%
It seems no matter where you go on the internet, where there are polls about Scotland and its impending independence all the polls appear to be going the same way. INDEPENDENCE for Scotland!
#
2012-02-17 23:06
Something dodgy with the poll It was sitting at 49.3 I voted and it jumped to 54;9 rather odd
#
2012-02-17 22:03
Read it through and just love this little quote! (my bolding)
----------------------------------------
Former Welsh Office minister and ex-Conservative Assembly leader Rod Richards warned that in making the financial case for staying in the union the prime minister must not suggest that Scottish voters are the recipients of a “hand-out”.
He said: “He needs to be careful. Unless he’s very, very careful how he puts it, it creates the impression Scotland is getting a hand-out from England.
“It’s not a hand-out. We are one country and therefore transfers of money from the Treasury around the country are a perfectly normal thing to do.”
walesonline.co.uk/.../...
Q1: What financial case! and
Q2: All one country!
Enough said I think.
----------------------------------------
Former Welsh Office minister and ex-Conservative Assembly leader Rod Richards warned that in making the financial case for staying in the union the prime minister must not suggest that Scottish voters are the recipients of a “hand-out”.
He said: “He needs to be careful. Unless he’s very, very careful how he puts it, it creates the impression Scotland is getting a hand-out from England.
“It’s not a hand-out. We are one country and therefore transfers of money from the Treasury around the country are a perfectly normal thing to do.”
walesonline.co.uk/.../...
Q1: What financial case! and
Q2: All one country!
Enough said I think.
#
2012-02-17 22:17
call me dave
Did you not notice the poll on Scotland to the right of the article?
Would Scotland be better off outside the United Kingdom?
YES: 50.6%
..NO: 49.4%
I have just voted… reckon it needs more nudges.
walesonline.co.uk/.../...
Did you not notice the poll on Scotland to the right of the article?
Would Scotland be better off outside the United Kingdom?
YES: 50.6%
..NO: 49.4%
I have just voted… reckon it needs more nudges.
walesonline.co.uk/.../...
#
2012-02-17 22:18
Just found this video on Euronews.
euronews.net/.../...
Some interesting views put forward. Above all I would have to say that this video is quite a balanced presentation of what lies ahead for Scotland over the next two and half years.
There are four bonus links which I have not yet watched but some may find interesting.
1) an interview with Patricia Ferguson, Scottish Labour’s constitutional spokesperson.
euronews.net/.../...
2)an interview with the SNP’s Deputy First Minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon.
euronews.net/.../...
3)an interview with Christina McKelvie (SNP), Member of Scottish Parliament.
euronews.net/.../...
4) an interview with Professor Brian Ashcroft.
euronews.net/.../...
euronews.net/.../...
Some interesting views put forward. Above all I would have to say that this video is quite a balanced presentation of what lies ahead for Scotland over the next two and half years.
There are four bonus links which I have not yet watched but some may find interesting.
1) an interview with Patricia Ferguson, Scottish Labour’s constitutional spokesperson.
euronews.net/.../...
2)an interview with the SNP’s Deputy First Minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon.
euronews.net/.../...
3)an interview with Christina McKelvie (SNP), Member of Scottish Parliament.
euronews.net/.../...
4) an interview with Professor Brian Ashcroft.
euronews.net/.../...
#
2012-02-17 23:45
P Ferguson trotting out the same guff 'we just do not know what independence means' the SNP have not come clean on welfare, pensions etc... Sooner or later this excuse will have run its course and as Margot said today 'We know what it is like today and it is not good Is this what we want for our children?
#
2012-02-17 23:52
'we just do not know what independence means'
Don't you love it when they come out with this one.
Perhaps we should start up a wee collection so they can buy themselves a new dictionary, preferably one that contains words starting with the letter "I". :D
Don't you love it when they come out with this one.
Perhaps we should start up a wee collection so they can buy themselves a new dictionary, preferably one that contains words starting with the letter "I". :D
#
2012-02-17 23:09
Quoting call me dave:
Shock News FLAT EARTH OFFICIAL
O/T
Strathclyde Police drop probe over Commonwealth land deals.
bbc.co.uk/.../...
Shock News FLAT EARTH OFFICIAL
#
2012-02-17 23:20
Just watched the Ponsonby interview with Dave. I thought it brilliant. He asked him one question 3 times which is enough. He also asked him would he go head to head in a live tv debate with Alex Salmond. He remarkably said he had not thought about it! I think he should be asked this at every opportunity so it becomes an issue for him.
player.stv.tv/.../...
player.stv.tv/.../...
#
2012-02-18 00:15
Quoting Wee-Scamp:
Read this earlier and it is an indictment of how weak 'call me dave's' position is.
Last sentence sums it all up nicely:
---------------------------------------
Don't be surprised if Salmond is already busy trying to arrange the next the prime ministerial visit.
----------------------------------------
Good piece.....
newstatesman.com/.../...
Read this earlier and it is an indictment of how weak 'call me dave's' position is.
Last sentence sums it all up nicely:
---------------------------------------
Don't be surprised if Salmond is already busy trying to arrange the next the prime ministerial visit.
----------------------------------------
#
2012-02-18 00:21
What is surprising is that Cameron didn't think to get a speech writer who knew anything about Scotland.
The speech was written by Julian Glover - ex of the Guardian.
I doubt he has ever written an article on Scotland.
guardian.co.uk/.../...
The speech was written by Julian Glover - ex of the Guardian.
I doubt he has ever written an article on Scotland.
guardian.co.uk/.../...
#
2012-02-18 23:17
brilliant oldnat just how do you get those details and is Glover still a journalist.
#
2012-02-18 23:32
No longer a journalist. He resigned from the Guardian to become Cameron's top speech writer.
#
2012-02-18 00:28
Some interesting comments at the bottom of the article. I noted in particular the post from a Tom Duffin, his post reads:
Quote:
I have bolded what I think is a very enlightening point. The information will not be released because it will undermine the operation of the government. Hmm! What they really mean is that by releasing said papers the Westminster government will be found out for the humongous bunch of liars that we all know them to be.
Quote:
Why can't we have transparency about this - it would help to see the UK finances in details re Taxes, and spend in ALL areas. It would seem the UK government have something to hide. Just last week we learned that the Attorney General vetoed the release of Cabinet committee papers relating to devolution under the Freedom of Information Act. Dominic Grieve said in a written statement to Parliament it was not in the public interest to release the papers because it would undermine the operation of Government. A request had been made for publication of the minutes of the Cabinet Ministerial Committee of Devolution to Scotland and Wales and the English Regions, dating from 1997 and 1998. Such a veto has only been used twice in the past, once relating to further devolution papers and once over a request for Cabinet minutes relating to Iraq.
I have bolded what I think is a very enlightening point. The information will not be released because it will undermine the operation of the government. Hmm! What they really mean is that by releasing said papers the Westminster government will be found out for the humongous bunch of liars that we all know them to be.
#
2012-02-18 00:06
Is it me or are the people of Calcutta coming out of the closet and showing their support for Scotland in our fight for Independence?
bbc.co.uk/.../...
Oops sorry folks I'm just being cynical again. :D
bbc.co.uk/.../...
Oops sorry folks I'm just being cynical again. :D
#
2012-02-18 01:58
Quoting Arbroath1320:
What's Joni Mitchell goanie make of all this? Big BLUE Taxi???
Is it me or are the people of Calcutta coming out of the closet and showing their support for Scotland in our fight for Independence?
bbc.co.uk/.../...
Oops sorry folks I'm just being cynical again. :D
What's Joni Mitchell goanie make of all this? Big BLUE Taxi???
#
2012-02-18 02:13
How about the Big Blue INDEPENDENT Taxi?
On a more serious note I see that the bunch of unelected dozing ermine smoozing unelected "Lords" are at it again.
guardian.co.uk/.../...
On a more serious note I see that the bunch of unelected dozing ermine smoozing unelected "Lords" are at it again.
guardian.co.uk/.../...
#
2012-02-18 14:55
Will they be using some of the aid money call me Dave and his cronies insisted they take even though they made it plain that they did not want it
Maybe they have just got to do some daft things to use it up
Maybe they have just got to do some daft things to use it up
#
2012-02-18 02:13
O/T I noticed on Room 101 tonight the initial joke flashed up "countries that border England" to go in the 101 bin. With the quip that's too obvious! The format of the show is things the guests hate and would have appear in their Room 101.
#
2012-02-18 03:50
Interesting questions posed by Salmond to Cameron at the COSLA conference.
"It is possible, because times change, that David Cameron's offer to Scotland is a genuine one.
"But at the very least it raises three major questions. If the offer is genuine, will the final version of the Scotland bill contain provisions for further economic powers that have been asked for by the Scottish parliament over these last nine months?
"Secondly, if the offer is genuine, why does the Scotland bill contain proposals to transfer some powers back to Westminster?
"And thirdly, if the prime minister's offer is genuine, will he set out the full proposals by the end of the Scottish government's referendum consultation in May, so the Scottish government – and far more importantly, the Scottish people – can develop an informed view about what might be on offer?"
Cameron, by vaguely offering the possibility of more devolution and replicating his predecessor Douglas-Home will not be able to avoid answering these questions.
"It is possible, because times change, that David Cameron's offer to Scotland is a genuine one.
"But at the very least it raises three major questions. If the offer is genuine, will the final version of the Scotland bill contain provisions for further economic powers that have been asked for by the Scottish parliament over these last nine months?
"Secondly, if the offer is genuine, why does the Scotland bill contain proposals to transfer some powers back to Westminster?
"And thirdly, if the prime minister's offer is genuine, will he set out the full proposals by the end of the Scottish government's referendum consultation in May, so the Scottish government – and far more importantly, the Scottish people – can develop an informed view about what might be on offer?"
Cameron, by vaguely offering the possibility of more devolution and replicating his predecessor Douglas-Home will not be able to avoid answering these questions.
#
2012-02-18 20:03
The economic powers in the Scotland Bill are unworkable and unusable. The majority of the bill is a transfer of powers and responsibilitie s back. There were only about 3 powers being handed over powers on air gun legislation, some speed signs and some areas of drink driving legislation. Of these 3 powers their lardships have been amending them beyond all recognistion to the point they can't be legislated on without Westminsters permission.
While the bill is still being forced on Scotland it's obvious it's another lie. How can you propose further devolution at the same time as you are legislating to remove powers and responsibilitie s and begin dismantling devolution.
While the bill is still being forced on Scotland it's obvious it's another lie. How can you propose further devolution at the same time as you are legislating to remove powers and responsibilitie s and begin dismantling devolution.
#
2012-02-18 09:18
Aye.Its simply unimagineable that the anti-independence campaign can keep up a "jam tomorrow" strategy for two and a half years without putting flesh on the bones of their proposal.Aint gonna happen,as Prof Curtice etc have pointed out.So I guess its a case of Cameron offering as little as he can get away with to save the union.But can he keep upping the anti,or would this look very weak to the voters,in referendum and general election to follow?
#
2012-02-18 11:42
As a professor at Glasgow,is Curtice a civil servant or an employee of the B.B.C.?
Just listened to Newsweek Scotland on the B.B.C. and the opinion of the presenter and a renowned journalist fron the London Times suggested that, as a last resort, Cameron would go to the courts to stop Scottish independence, pretty hairy stuff!!
Just listened to Newsweek Scotland on the B.B.C. and the opinion of the presenter and a renowned journalist fron the London Times suggested that, as a last resort, Cameron would go to the courts to stop Scottish independence, pretty hairy stuff!!
#
2012-02-18 12:44
Prof' Curtice is doing very nicely from the Refo' debate. Thrust blinking into the spotlight, from relative obscurity to being a household name, it's now wall to wall Curtice. The last thing he or his bank manager wants is an early Refo' date.
#
2012-02-18 14:07
I see on the Guardian that our friends electric in the House of Lords are once again sticking their neb in. I find their tone and attitude really offensive. Why don't they don bloody pith hats and khaki shorts along with their ermine.
guardian.co.uk/.../...
guardian.co.uk/.../...
#
2012-02-18 14:52
Nice to know that a bunch of geriatric non elected unelectables are now trying to force changes upon Scotland.
INDEPENDENCE! This is what we want! Dump the geriatrics!
Oh, wait a minute. I read recently that there was a killer whale spotted off the Norfolk coast.
Now I wonder..........
Is it possible to shepherd Killer whales in the same way as sheep. If it is perhaps we can "guide" this lovely little whale up the Thames and then we can arrange a "feeding", say once every couple of days. It would be quite easy to do. Just drag an "unelectable" up the East tower of Westminster and chuck them off into the Thames. I'm sure Kenny(the Killer Whale) would be most appreciative.
Just think. You could sell tickets to the public to come and watch. Now that really would help cut down the UK's deficit methinks. :D
INDEPENDENCE! This is what we want! Dump the geriatrics!
Oh, wait a minute. I read recently that there was a killer whale spotted off the Norfolk coast.
Now I wonder..........
Is it possible to shepherd Killer whales in the same way as sheep. If it is perhaps we can "guide" this lovely little whale up the Thames and then we can arrange a "feeding", say once every couple of days. It would be quite easy to do. Just drag an "unelectable" up the East tower of Westminster and chuck them off into the Thames. I'm sure Kenny(the Killer Whale) would be most appreciative.
Just think. You could sell tickets to the public to come and watch. Now that really would help cut down the UK's deficit methinks. :D
#
2012-02-18 14:14
What continually gets my goat is their assertion it must be a free fair vote What do they think we want? We have had enough unfair rigged votes to last us a lifetime
Do they think we are a banana republic or something??
Do they think we are a banana republic or something??
#
2012-02-18 14:56
It's more likely his own ideas leaking out into constant reassurances that he's "Honest Dave", who only wants a fair vote without any dirty tricks, spin, involvement of bribes, divide and conquer, government agents, smear campaigns in the media or outright rigging the vote through rule changes (dead people voting no again) or ballot stuffing. People who have foul deeds in mind or a dishonest bent trying to deal with the public often proclaim their love for honesty and a desire only for "fairness", all the while people are homeless and that person lives like a king.
It's kind of like the old rule of thumb of how almost every country with the word "Democratic" in its name turns out to be a dicatorship.
"Methinks the lady doth protest too much"
The more he says he wants a fair and honest vote, the harder I will be staring at his hands and all the details to make sure there's nothing going on. I suggest everyone do the same to ensure true honesty. Scotland will only get a truly fair deal if everyone stays awake and alert.
It's kind of like the old rule of thumb of how almost every country with the word "Democratic" in its name turns out to be a dicatorship.
"Methinks the lady doth protest too much"
The more he says he wants a fair and honest vote, the harder I will be staring at his hands and all the details to make sure there's nothing going on. I suggest everyone do the same to ensure true honesty. Scotland will only get a truly fair deal if everyone stays awake and alert.
#
2012-02-18 15:00
" I will be staring at his hands"
But remember that conjurors get you to focus on something like their hands, so that you don't see the trickery that is going on elsewhere!
But remember that conjurors get you to focus on something like their hands, so that you don't see the trickery that is going on elsewhere!
#
2012-02-18 15:05
Watch his face becoming redder by the minute and the sweat he had to wipe from his top lip while giving his lecture on Thursday
#
2012-02-18 15:56
At least it gives some entertainment to the independence camp too. It's not just the unionists that enjoy watching him! It's about time Dave and the rest were made to sweat for a change.
#
2012-02-18 15:54
Good point. Worth keeping that in mind when they start the misdirection. We can no doubt safely assume they'll try and do exactly what you describe!
#
2012-02-18 15:11
Quoting mato21:
I think they want the same kind of "free fair vote" that we had in 1979.
What continually gets my goat is their assertion it must be a free fair vote What do they think we want? We have had enough unfair rigged votes to last us a lifetime
Do they think we are a banana republic or something??
I think they want the same kind of "free fair vote" that we had in 1979.
#
2012-02-18 14:30
[Posting the same post on multiple threads is "spamming", and not permitted - NNS Mod Team]
#
2012-02-18 16:34
Apologies, Mod Team :( Lesson learnt, no harm meant and no offence taken, it won't happen again.
Perhaps you can help with my request to you personally.
[Thanks. Request forwarded to the relevant department - NNS Mod Team]
Perhaps you can help with my request to you personally.
[Thanks. Request forwarded to the relevant department - NNS Mod Team]
#
2012-02-18 15:55
Quoting K Mackay:
Sorry mods, no harm meant, just thought folk might be interested, won't happen again
[Thanks - NNS Mod Team]
[Posting the same post on multiple threads is "spamming", and not permitted - NNS Mod Team]
Sorry mods, no harm meant, just thought folk might be interested, won't happen again
[Thanks - NNS Mod Team]
#
2012-02-18 14:50
A REMINDER to all SNP MEMBERS,VOTERS and UNDECIDEDS:-
The Prime Minister David Cameron stated clearly on Thursday 16th February 2012,in Edinburgh,to a meeting of Scotland's business leaders:-
"Let's be clear,though,I'm not going to stand here and suggest Scotland couldn't make a go of being on its own, if that's what people decide.
There are plenty of small,independe nt nation states of a similar size or even smaller.
Scotland could make its way in the world alongside countries like those."
These words demolish,in an instant,the Labour argument,repeat ed ad infinitum during the last 45 years---"It's madness" etc.
Why,Oh why did/does Scottish Labour repeat this myth with the othe Unionist parties,while Scotland's people struggled to survive,live in sub-standard housing,send our kids to substandard schools,awful transport,long-term unemployment, the elderly dying,fearful of switching on the fire(the biggest shame/disgrace of all).
45 years of that--not 10,not 20 but 45 years of double talk as many,many people in Scotland struggled to make ends meet.
The Prime Minister's historic words,almost ignored by the media, quoted above, should be pushed through every letterbox in Scotland,alongs ide some notable Labour quotes of the last 45 years.
Whenever anyone says,"we canna dae it",or "we're too small",gently tell them of the PM's statement of 16th February 2012.
They probably don't know it.
The Prime Minister David Cameron stated clearly on Thursday 16th February 2012,in Edinburgh,to a meeting of Scotland's business leaders:-
"Let's be clear,though,I'm not going to stand here and suggest Scotland couldn't make a go of being on its own, if that's what people decide.
There are plenty of small,independe nt nation states of a similar size or even smaller.
Scotland could make its way in the world alongside countries like those."
These words demolish,in an instant,the Labour argument,repeat ed ad infinitum during the last 45 years---"It's madness" etc.
Why,Oh why did/does Scottish Labour repeat this myth with the othe Unionist parties,while Scotland's people struggled to survive,live in sub-standard housing,send our kids to substandard schools,awful transport,long-term unemployment, the elderly dying,fearful of switching on the fire(the biggest shame/disgrace of all).
45 years of that--not 10,not 20 but 45 years of double talk as many,many people in Scotland struggled to make ends meet.
The Prime Minister's historic words,almost ignored by the media, quoted above, should be pushed through every letterbox in Scotland,alongs ide some notable Labour quotes of the last 45 years.
Whenever anyone says,"we canna dae it",or "we're too small",gently tell them of the PM's statement of 16th February 2012.
They probably don't know it.
#
2012-02-18 15:21
I reckon all future FMQ's could become very, very interesting.
Should any one of the "opposition" party leaders try and claim that we couldn't make it on our own I guess they are going to get this statement from "Call me Dave" rammed back down their throat ad nauseum.
Personally, I think "Call me Dave" has just gone up in the estimations of the people of Scotland for make that statement. Do you think it is too early to make "Call me Dave" an "honorary" member of the S.N.P.? :D
I think by saying what he said he has knocked, probably, the last and final nail into the unionists coffin. There is absolutely no way forward for the unionist argument now. How can any unionist argue against Scottish Independence now?
Should any one of the "opposition" party leaders try and claim that we couldn't make it on our own I guess they are going to get this statement from "Call me Dave" rammed back down their throat ad nauseum.
Personally, I think "Call me Dave" has just gone up in the estimations of the people of Scotland for make that statement. Do you think it is too early to make "Call me Dave" an "honorary" member of the S.N.P.? :D
I think by saying what he said he has knocked, probably, the last and final nail into the unionists coffin. There is absolutely no way forward for the unionist argument now. How can any unionist argue against Scottish Independence now?
#
2012-02-18 15:29
Quoting Arbroath1320:
Easily. "Yes, obviously Scotland could manage on its own, but it wouldn't, because it's too small, too poor and too stupid. Besides, we fought the second world war together".
And there are people who will buy it.
How can any unionist argue against Scottish Independence now?
Easily. "Yes, obviously Scotland could manage on its own, but it wouldn't, because it's too small, too poor and too stupid. Besides, we fought the second world war together".
And there are people who will buy it.
#
2012-02-18 19:48
Buy what exactly, a made up quote.
The quote I recall, and forgive me if I am incorrect was,
"obviously Scotland could manage on its own"
And as was stated above how can any unionist argue against what the PM actually said.
The quote I recall, and forgive me if I am incorrect was,
"obviously Scotland could manage on its own"
And as was stated above how can any unionist argue against what the PM actually said.
#
2012-02-18 22:14
Yes, a 'made-up quote'. Or 'a hypothetical argument that might be made by a unionist', in response to the question "How can any unionist argue against Scottish Independence now?". That's how any unionist could argue against what the PM actually said. And there are people who will buy it.
#
2012-02-18 23:34
A few words come to mind, straws and clutching, but not necessarily in that order.
I think your argument says more about you than the people that you are trying to misrepresent.
I think your argument says more about you than the people that you are trying to misrepresent.
#
2012-02-19 00:03
I'm clutching at straws by pointing out that what I actually said wasn't your bizarre interpretation of it? I'll let my post speak for itself. Others will no doubt be able to read it.
The hypothetical argument I offered (not 'my' argument) says nothing about me other than that I've seen the sort of bull-headed, ignorant, fact-averse arguments made by any number of unionists. Perhaps you haven't. That's your good fortune, but pretending they don't exist will neither counter the arguments nor prevent people advancing them or believing them. There are unionists who can, do and will make similar arguments. There are unionists who will cheerfully make such an argument, listen to someone quoting the PM and then trot off to make the argument again, either because they don't hear what they don't want to hear or because they hope that others haven't heard or don't believe the rebuttal. The people I am representing - and I represent them accurately, even if you choose to imagine I'm misrepresenting some different people - make these arguments, ignore these facts, believe these lies and will go on doing so regardless of whether you choose to believe in their existence or not.
It is very tempting to believe that, because we know that all the arguments are false, so do all the unionists and therefore they'll stop making them. They won't. Nor will everyone stop believing them. No matter how stupid an idea, there is someone, somewhere, ready to believe it.
The hypothetical argument I offered (not 'my' argument) says nothing about me other than that I've seen the sort of bull-headed, ignorant, fact-averse arguments made by any number of unionists. Perhaps you haven't. That's your good fortune, but pretending they don't exist will neither counter the arguments nor prevent people advancing them or believing them. There are unionists who can, do and will make similar arguments. There are unionists who will cheerfully make such an argument, listen to someone quoting the PM and then trot off to make the argument again, either because they don't hear what they don't want to hear or because they hope that others haven't heard or don't believe the rebuttal. The people I am representing - and I represent them accurately, even if you choose to imagine I'm misrepresenting some different people - make these arguments, ignore these facts, believe these lies and will go on doing so regardless of whether you choose to believe in their existence or not.
It is very tempting to believe that, because we know that all the arguments are false, so do all the unionists and therefore they'll stop making them. They won't. Nor will everyone stop believing them. No matter how stupid an idea, there is someone, somewhere, ready to believe it.
#
2012-02-18 17:45
'Dundonian West'
"Let's be clear,though,I'm not going to stand here and suggest Scotland couldn't make a go of being on its own, if that's what people decide.
There are plenty of small,independe nt nation states of a similar size or even smaller.
Scotland could make its way in the world alongside countries like those."
I get the feeling that when he said that he was trying to imply that Scotland would only ever be a small country like the others he referenced. Whereas if we stayed within the union we would be 'big' players on a global scale.
The thing he seems to miss is that that is exactly what Scotland would want to be ....a successful SMALL country.
"Let's be clear,though,I'm not going to stand here and suggest Scotland couldn't make a go of being on its own, if that's what people decide.
There are plenty of small,independe nt nation states of a similar size or even smaller.
Scotland could make its way in the world alongside countries like those."
I get the feeling that when he said that he was trying to imply that Scotland would only ever be a small country like the others he referenced. Whereas if we stayed within the union we would be 'big' players on a global scale.
The thing he seems to miss is that that is exactly what Scotland would want to be ....a successful SMALL country.
#
2012-02-18 17:54
Excellent point. The people who benefit from being "global players" are the political class of such countries - not the people, whose interests are sacrificed through their taxes being wasted on WMDs and armed forces designed to invade other countries.
Cameron, Brown, Blair, Miliband and the rest of the British political class want to posture on the world stage, regardless of the peoples' interests.
Cameron, Brown, Blair, Miliband and the rest of the British political class want to posture on the world stage, regardless of the peoples' interests.
#
2012-02-19 00:53
The thing is though Old Nat, what exactly do we, the people of Scotland (or the U.K. for that matter), actually gain out of all this "posturing" by Blair, Brown, Cameron et al?
Oh, I forgot. We become members of that very exclusive club, The Illegal Warmongers Club!
Oh, I forgot. We become members of that very exclusive club, The Illegal Warmongers Club!
#
2012-02-19 00:57
Yes! Isn't it fun bringing death and destruction to other people. Haven't had so much fun in ages as when the Iraquis were being killed, and the extremists entered Iraq to kill even more.
Ah! Happy days, I must remember to vote Con or Lab next rime round. :-)
Ah! Happy days, I must remember to vote Con or Lab next rime round. :-)
#
2012-02-19 02:05
Got to admit oldnat, I was all up for voting YES. Now I think about it how can we possibly vote to leave The Illegal Warmongers Club! There are so many advantages to being a member of this salubrious club that I must surely have to vote NO.:D
#
2012-02-18 21:34
Got to admit jafurn, I'd rather be small and FREE than big and controlled by others.
#
2012-02-18 17:26
OFF TOPIC McCRONE--
People in North Britain cheated once again by Unionist coverup.
Public awareness of this bombshell is pitiful.
Press and TV have been too quiet on this delicate subject for too long.
Lets inform a few more people.
independent.co.uk/.../...
People in North Britain cheated once again by Unionist coverup.
Public awareness of this bombshell is pitiful.
Press and TV have been too quiet on this delicate subject for too long.
Lets inform a few more people.
independent.co.uk/.../...
#
2012-02-18 18:44
Big country - delusions of grandeur, and a big ego.
Small country - jist get on wi' it, and mak is a cup o' tea whilst yir at it.
Even though Dave looked ill as he supped his porridge, it was would have done him more good than the spotted dick he is used to.
Small country - jist get on wi' it, and mak is a cup o' tea whilst yir at it.
Even though Dave looked ill as he supped his porridge, it was would have done him more good than the spotted dick he is used to.
#
2012-02-18 19:49
Wouldn't his pudding of choice be Eton mess - "a traditional English dessert consisting of a mixture of strawberries, pieces of meringue and cream, which is traditionally served at Eton College"?
#
2012-02-18 19:35
O/T Here is Alex Salmonds interview by David Frost on Aljazeera for anyone who is interested.
aljazeera.com/.../...
aljazeera.com/.../...
#
2012-02-18 20:43
Thanks Saltire Groppenslosh
I am no great admirer of David Frost but at least he allows Mr Salmond to give an answer to his questions without constant interruption.
I only wish some of the other so called interviewers...you know the ones I mean...would afford him the same courtesy
I am no great admirer of David Frost but at least he allows Mr Salmond to give an answer to his questions without constant interruption.
I only wish some of the other so called interviewers...you know the ones I mean...would afford him the same courtesy
#
2012-02-18 21:41
They can't do that jafurn, that would require these "alleged" interviewers showing some respect to A.S. and we all know they can't be seen to be doing that!
#
2012-02-18 21:43
Quoting jafurn:
Yes – I agree that this was a breath of fresh air! Compared with Paxman and Campbell – well, there was none. The only thought that occurred to me was that they genuinely seemed a bit like old pals. Now that’s interesting, since Frost is definitely a ‘London luvvie’ – could it be that oor Eck spent some of his time representing us in London polishing his credentials with such folk? If so, is this is another example of ‘the long game’?
Thanks Saltire Groppenslosh
I am no great admirer of David Frost but at least he allows Mr Salmond to give an answer to his questions without constant interruption.
I only wish some of the other so called interviewers...you know the ones I mean...would afford him the same courtesy
Yes – I agree that this was a breath of fresh air! Compared with Paxman and Campbell – well, there was none. The only thought that occurred to me was that they genuinely seemed a bit like old pals. Now that’s interesting, since Frost is definitely a ‘London luvvie’ – could it be that oor Eck spent some of his time representing us in London polishing his credentials with such folk? If so, is this is another example of ‘the long game’?
#
2012-02-18 21:43
Saltire, there is also a piece covering his interview with David Frost over on the Scottish Times.
www.scottishtimes.org/.../
You beat me to the Al Jazeera link. :D
www.scottishtimes.org/.../
You beat me to the Al Jazeera link. :D
#
2012-02-18 22:37
Cheers for that link 'Arbroath1320' very interesting and it led me on to another article from the same site.
here....
Good read and the comments are very interesting also.
www.scottishtimes.org/.../
here....
Good read and the comments are very interesting also.
www.scottishtimes.org/.../
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