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  By Bob Duncan
 
Claims by Tory Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith that an Independent Scotland would be too poor to sustain welfare support, have been dismissed as “scaremongering” by the SNP.
 
On a trip to Scotland today, the Work and Pensions Secretary said that the annual benefit and pensions bill in Scotland is almost twice as much as the revenues raised each year from North Sea oil and gas.

He said: “Due to the reliance on the old heavy industries in many parts of the country, it makes perfect sense that we need to spend more money per head of population on welfare support in Scotland.  I have no problem with that.”

“In fact, I am glad that we are in a position to do it. Thankfully, due to the United Kingdom and the commitment of the Westminster government we are able to ensure that money brought in, whether it be from the City of London or from North Sea oil, can be pooled and directed to wherever it is needed most. That is what being in the United Kingdom is all about.

“If the unthinkable were to happen, a Scottish Government would face a stark choice of raising taxes or cutting services. This is not scaremongering, it's reality.”

But Alex Salmond said Mr Duncan Smith had simply got his figures wrong.

The First Minister explained: “We contribute 9.6 percent of the UK's taxation, with 9.3 per cent of the spending and just over 8 per cent of the population. The welfare bill is not financed out of North Sea oil, it is financed out of general taxation.”

Mr Salmond dismissed Mr Duncan Smith's remarks as those of a "right wing" politician, and rebuked the Tory Minister for trying to lecture Scotland on welfare a day after a Scottish Parliament committee heard from a blind man who said he was being “reduced to penury” and forced to beg on the streets by welfare cuts introduced by Mr Duncan Smith.

“The man responsible for that has got the audacity to come to Scotland and tell us we couldn't afford to have a compassionate and proper welfare protection,” he added.

“We could have less borrowing, more spending and we would certainly be able to sustain a position where we didn't reduce people with blindness to penury, as Iain Duncan Smith is currently doing in Scotland.”

Highlighting figures from GERS (Government Expenditure & Revenue in Scotland) for 2010-11, SNP Work and Pensions spokesperson Dr Eilidh Whiteford pointed out that an independent Scotland is financially better placed to fund pensions and welfare compared to the UK as a whole.

The analysis of the figures from GERS for social protection - which includes state pensions and welfare payments - show that the size of Scotland's expenditure stands at 40% of Scottish revenues, less than the 42% spent by the UK.

Dr Whiteford said:

“Iain Duncan Smith styled himself as the quiet man and, after his ridiculous claims on welfare, I suspect the No campaign he will be hoping he keeps quiet in future.

“The official GERS figures show that spending on social protection as a percentage of total revenues in Scotland is consistently lower than it is in the UK - which means that welfare spending will be more affordable in an independent Scotland.  And with Scotland contributing 9.6% of UK revenue in return for 9.3% of spending, the fact is that Scotland more than pays our way in the UK.

“Just like Mr Duncan Smith refuses to accept the facts about his damaging tax credit changes, the facts show that he is completely wrong on Scotland's welfare spend in comparison to the UK.

“Looking at both sides of the balance sheet, over the five-year period from 2006/7 to 2010/11, Scotland was in a stronger financial position relative to the UK as a whole by a total of £8.6 billion- over £1,600 for every man, woman and child in Scotland, or over £3,600 per household.  This underlines the opportunities of independence and financial responsibility.

“With unpopular NHS reforms south of the border and the Tory Chancellor eyeing a further £10bn of cuts from the welfare budget according to this morning’s papers, the Westminster government are determined to dismantle the welfare state.

“It is clear Scotland needs independence so that we can deliver a fair and effective welfare system - rather than be on the receiving end of unfair Tory policies - and the figures show that welfare spending in an independent Scotland will be more affordable because it is a smaller share of our tax revenue than is the case for the UK as a whole.”

Comments  

 
# xyz 2012-09-19 22:40
Was IDS challenged at the time when he spouted this big lie?

If he wasn't then I guess the big lie has legs among the gullible.
 
 
# From The Suburbs 2012-09-19 22:50
Saw IDS on Scotland Tonight and wondered which Better Together person burnt the saltire.

Seriously...... Why does BBC and newspapers give banner headlines to Iain Duncan Smith's scaremongering propaganda but no mention is made of this week's Scottish National Accounts Project's analysis of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) figures which showed that Scotland has been wealthier than the rest of the UK for every single year since 1980.

newsnetscotland .com/.../...
 
 
# X_Sticks 2012-09-19 23:03
Chicken Little!

Norway seems to manage to pay it's pensions and benefits without any problem.
 
 
# EphemeralDeception 2012-09-19 23:14
IDS did not state that England would have a problem with welfare payements when Scotland becomes independent.

Therefore for him only Scottish Governance is uniquely incapable of providing this service. Therefore we are somehow inferior.

In his statement the 'unthinkable' can only happen to a Scottish Government. His statements are borderline racist and certainly offensive.

He is also an extremely narrow minded Tory since there are not only the 2 options of cutting services and raising taxes if a country hits a recession. Defense spending reduction would be a good example and Scotland would not have to pay towards Trident, nor the to the overspend of the UK pretending to be a world military power.
 
 
# Callan 2012-09-20 10:56
We would also be in a position where 650 middle class benefit cheats, known to hang around a certain Westminster house, would be off our balance sheets. Less duck houses, porn and Georgian beams; more money for proper disablitity benefits. Not to mention that the general spending included in Scotland's finances such as: HS2, olympics and armed forces either wouldn't exist or they would be providing direct capital for the Scottish economy to become more fluid and drag us out of this mess that the aforementioned middle class cheats think can only be solved by London. It's funny that the most successful countries (mainly our Scandinavian neighbours) don't have this problem and do far better than the UK.
 
 
# From The Suburbs 2012-09-19 23:36
Willie Bain was floundering on Newsnight when asked what a Labour government would do about welfare in an independent Scotland.

We should take this line more often and constantly remind voters that there could be a Labour or Tory / Lib Dem government in an independent Scotland so what are their policies for 2016 as the SNP is continually expected to spell out what would happen in 4 years time.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-09-19 23:58
leading economist John McLaren of the Centre for Public Policy for Regions at Strathclyde University, who said the Tory minister was making his claim on a false premise.

Mr McLaren said: “We believe Alex Salmond is right on this one. The comparison between North Sea oil revenues and the welfare costs in Scotland is totally irrelevant.

“Mr Salmond is right to say the welfare bill is not funded from North Sea oil but from general taxation.”

The former Labour special adviser added: “What is relevant is whether Scotland’s financial balance is relatively better or worse. Our most recent analysis found that both (economies) were heavily in deficit, but Scotland was relatively better off than the UK.


scotsman.com/.../...
 
 
# ubinworryinmasheep 2012-09-20 00:44
I see IDS was born in Edinburgh although it does not say this on his own website (maybe hiding his Scottish)

From his website
Quote:
In 2001, Iain was elected Leader of the Conservative Party. After stepping down in 2003, he set up the Centre for Social Justice (CSJ), an independent think tank committed to tackling poverty and social breakdown. Iain worked tirelessly as Chairman of the CSJ until the 2010 General Election, when he was appointed Secretary of State for Work and Pensions.


A think tank committed to tackling poverty and social breakdown ? Do you think he is in the wrong party ?
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-09-20 02:07
It's a typo. It should read "cackling at poverty and social breakdown".
 
 
# tartanfever 2012-09-20 01:35
I watched the lunchtime BBC news today. It had AS talking about the blind man and his dreadful situation. He mentioned no facts or figures. His interview was surrounded by other people, the reporter etc saying that 'figures show' or 'IDS will be showing figures later'. It made AS look completely fooled, and to be frank, a man with no evidence.

I have said this so many times the SNP media/communications lot need to get a grip. AS should have walked out to the press and made this statement, which I've taken from above:

“The official GERS (pointing out that GERS are Scottish Office/Westminster figures, not SNP )figures show that spending on social protection as a percentage of total revenues in Scotland is consistently lower than it is in the UK - which means that welfare spending will be more affordable in an independent Scotland.
Looking at both sides of the balance sheet, over the five-year period from 2006/7 to 2010/11, Scotland was in a stronger financial position relative to the UK as a whole by a total of £8.6 billion- over £1,600 for every man, woman and child in Scotland, or over £3,600 per household. Ian Duncan Smith is just scaremongering as Westminster fears the loss of Scottish revenues to bolster it's treasury"

AND THATS IT - don't say another word because then the BBC can't edit you. Instead we got the 'blind guy' story - which tragic though it is, is not an answer to the guff that IDS was allowed to present in partnership with the BBC.

The BBC may not have had enough of an influence on last years Holyrood elections, but 2014 will be a different kettle of fish and the outcome will be heavily influenced by the media. Time to confront the BBC and play some hardball.
 
 
# exel 2012-09-20 10:35
@ tartanfever : “I have said this so many times the SNP media/communications lot need to get a grip. AS should have walked out to the press and made this statement, which I've taken from above: “The official GERS (pointing out that GERS are Scottish Office/Westminster figures, not SNP )figures show that spending on social protection as a percentage of total revenues in Scotland is consistently lower than it is in the UK - which means that welfare spending will be more affordable in an independent Scotland.
Looking at both sides of the balance sheet, over the five-year period from 2006/7 to 2010/11, Scotland was in a stronger financial position relative to the UK as a whole by a total of £8.6 billion- over £1,600 for every man, woman and child in Scotland, or over £3,600 per household. Ian Duncan Smith is just scaremongering as Westminster fears the loss of Scottish revenues to bolster it's treasury"

Your version of the speech is certainly one which we have come to expect from the SNP. “It isnae oor fault we kin only go wie the figures we are given”.

Sounds so much like the drivel we got from the coalition after the last GE. "We did not know how bad the economy was until we seen the books."
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-09-20 11:11
Your version of tartanfever's post is certainly what we've come to expect from you: bitter, partisan and entirely unconnected with reality.
 
 
# Clydebuilt 2012-09-20 14:44
Quoting tartanfever:
I have said this so many times the SNP media/communications lot need to get a grip.

Time to confront the BBC and play some hardball
.



Too right! The BBC put a lot of effort in to attempts to make Nats look inept. Often they are succesful.
They are a big organisation with virtually unlimited resources. Don't be fooled by journalistic cuts at Pacific Quay, they're using resources from down South.

As some would say "It's game on".


My blood was boiling with Call Kaye's show this morning, listenning to disabled people recounting their experiences when being tested for their ability to work.
Some of the worst stuff I've heard regarding treatment of disabled people.
 
 
# UpSpake 2012-09-20 08:03
If Scotland has been in continual fiscal surplus to the UK Treasury for many years and that is under the current situation where we are being asked to contribute/be taxed for all the illegal wars, investment in London etc etc then it follows that upon independence with none of that to pay for, we, the Scots would be in embarrassing surplus unless we cancelled/reduced substantially the tax take, and or rates of tax.
IDS is a fool and a Tory fool at that. Far far better for him to stay below the border and not stray into territory he where he is not welcome.
The willingness of the MSM and the boradcast media to accept the drivel he was spouting is sickening.
 
 
# Leswil 2012-09-20 08:42
IDS, is going down a well used path, Westminster politicians generally come to Scotland on a flying visit, make as many negative issues as possible, then scurry back to the safety of Westminster.

They ALL do this Cameron, Clegg, Osborne, Milliband, etc etc. Do they not think that people up here have got their number?

Regarding being able to afford our social commitments, we consistently put in more than we take out. You do not really need to be a mathematician to see the truth.

However, they scaremonger, because that is really all they know. It is of course shameful, but hey, they have ALWAYS did this, and now we expect nothing less.

Truth is, they would not be so deceitful if they did not need us, and they do, need us in a big way!

They would simply let us go, but they know that they cannot afford to be truthful, the fear of losing so much that is important to them is their main concern.

Does any thinking Scot really believe that they are doing all this stuff, for their love of us, aye right!

Yes,their needs, not the needs of the Scottish people are as always uppermost in their thoughts and agenda.

So do not be taken in by all the rubbish they put out, it is just that they have bullied, cheated, and used us, for so long they know nothing else.

I do hope that someone in S/G has a calculator constantly running on just how much money, across all areas, that Scotland should be getting.

Hold that against what we are actually, getting. ie £billions of shortfall in our share of defence spending, just to point out one area, there are many more.

Surely the deficit between these figures would remain a debt, if you do not pay all your bills, then you still owe money.

In this case there would be £Billions owed to Scotland.

So tally all this up and present a bill to Westminster and let them use that to clear Scotland's bill of the share of UK debt they will want to drop on us.
 
 
# John Souter 2012-09-20 13:33
Duncan Smith is an ideological bigot.

A bigot using every disingenuous strategy in the PR spin book in order to divert attention away from the real cause in order to distort effects and hide the incompetence of the power system and the corrupt greed inherent in the ideology they chose to follow.

Irresponsible capitalism of a myth based product created this crises.

It was money from nothing and for nothing that they bought into, committed the country to and, as a result, the values of real productive wealth were left to the whims of the markets while the fate of the bewildered could be contained within the safety net of welfare.

With the result, we now have the same acolytes of a failed ideology trying to use the disastrous effects of it's failure as a strategy allowing them to continue to profit from a proven toxic cause.

The greatest cost of welfare is directly attributable to a woeful lack of competence and commitment on the Westminster establishment to safeguard the democratic rights of the people it supposedly serves to a life of aspiration and the possibility of improvement, instead they chose to chase the easy money, manipulate the statistical odds and turn governance into a club for hedonistic free loaders.

Better Together! Surely the classic oxymoron?
 
 
# robbo 2012-09-20 14:21
Government caused this crisis. Particularly the US and federal reserve.

Deposit insurance, government-set low interests rates, deficit spending.... Need i go on.

The Tories are big government conservatives not free market advocates. Which is why i don't vote for them.
 
 
# gopher3 2012-09-20 14:31
O/T
There was a report on the Keiser Report on Rt.com, that said "allegedly", that every financial crisis in the last 2 decades could be traced back indirectly to the City of London.
 
 
# Roll_On_2011 2012-09-20 14:51
Meanwhile back at ‘NuLabour in Scotlands’ funny farm, the Daily Record is attempting a naked re-write of history:

dailyrecord.co.uk/.../...

“ Iain Duncan Smith promises more disabled benefits cuts in Scotland: the Work and Pensions Secretary was the man behind bringing in Atos, who have been criticised for humiliating fit-for-work tests. ”

Fortunately ‘Wings over Scotland’ are pointing out the reality:

wingsland.podgamer.com/.../

“ Atos Healthcare was first employed to conduct Work Capability Assessments on claimants of Incapacity Benefit (and other disability benefits) in October 2008, under the Labour government of Gordon Brown, when said Labour government introduced Employment Support Allowance in order to reduce the welfare bill by replacing the previous benefits with one that was, for most recipients, around a third lower.

A 2009 report by the Citizens Advice Bureau highlighted Atos’ tendency to find people unexpectedly fit for work, but Brown’s government took no action against the company. “

So the ConDems have just picked up the baton from NuLabour and carried on with their project.
 
 
# kenneth_clark336 2012-09-20 18:58
David Cameron's trip to Norway triggered lots of discussion South of the border regarding the marked difference between Norway's financial situation and the UK's. Why is Norway so well off, with a well looked after population, large overseas investments, and lack of debt? We have oil and gas, why aren't we well off too? The consensus was that oil and gas rich Norway is well off because there are only 5 million of them to look after. Oil and gas rich UK, on the other hand, has 65 million to look after. The tiny leap of logic it would take for the posters to associate these figures with Scotland was obviously beyond them. Yet many of these sites still perpetuate the lie of the subsidised Jock. What sort of logic tells them that oil and gas rich Norway is well off because there are only 5 million, yet still makes room for the argument that oil and gas rich Scotland is poor, because, there are only 5 million of them? I believe it is all about perception. Years of programming have instilled this into the DNA of this country, and IDS was just topping it up a little in case people up here forget. Pity Bernard Ponsonsby hadn't interviewed him. This needs challenged at national and personal level. I have been handing out copies of the McCrone report, and other NNS stories to family and friends in a small effort at challenging this nonsense. I have also included the link in letters to the Courier when challenging the myth perpetuated by others in that paper, but they were never printed. Open and fair debate? They're having a laugh!
 

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