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By John Jappy

As a civil servant in London, and being part of the establishment, I always accepted the general view that an independent Scotland would not be able to survive on its own without financial help from the London Exchequer.

However, when in 1968 I was able to examine the so-called "books" for the first time, I was shocked to find that the position was exactly the opposite and that Scotland contributed much more to the UK economy than its other partners.  This was, of course, before the oil boom.

I realised that the Treasury would wish to keep this a secret, as it might feed nationalistic tendencies north of the border, which at that time were very weak.  I took the decision to keep an eye on the situation to see how long it would take for the true facts to emerge, which I felt would only be a short time.  However, the Treasury and the Establishment did an excellent job, aided and abetted by the media, to keep the myth about Scotland alive.  

In fact it took another 30 years before the first chink in their armour started to appear.  This came unexpectedly on 13 January 1997 when, in reply to a series of questions put by SNP Leader in the Commons, Alex Salmond MP to the then Tory government, Treasury Minister William Waldegrave admitted that Scotland had paid a massive £27 billion more to the London Exchequer than it had received since the Tories came to power in 1979.  Statistically this works out at £5,400 for every Scot.   

There were no attempts to refute these figures, which caused much embarrassment to the Tory Government of the day.  However, the facts were quickly covered up by the Unionist controlled media.

Then a year later with a Labour government now in power came a further bombshell.  Following further promptings by the SNP, on 21 August 1998, Mr Salmond received a letter from the House of Commons Library (ref. 98/8/56 EP/rjt) which gave a table showing that based on Scotland's GDP per capita, Scotland would occupy 7th place in the world's wealth league.  The UK was at 17th Place.

When the Labour government came to power it announced a 1p cut in the standard rate of income tax.  From my detailed knowledge of income tax, I felt that this was the worst possible thing that they could do, as extra monies would be needed following on from the Thatcher era, if they were to fulfil even a fraction of their promises to the electorate.  I came to the conclusion, and I still feel that I was right, that this was done by Labour to prove to the voters of Middle England that they could match the Tories in tax cuts.   

Despite the disclosures of 1998, attempts to deceive the Scottish electorate did not end there.  In March 1999 a Labour Party leaflet appeared which said that if the SNP were to forego Gordon Brown's 1p cut in the standard rate of income tax, every family in Scotland would be £250 worse off.  This became the major topic of a TV debate between Alex Salmond and Donald Dewar.  Salmond tried to point out to Dewar that he was using the wrong figures.  Watching the debate, I saw Dewar's eyes roll in his head for a few moments but he carried on regardless.  

After the debate it took the Labour Party a whole week to admit that they were wrong.  There was in fact a whole chain of errors which the Labour Party tried to blame on "printing mistakes".  However Labour could not deny the fact that in their calculations the UK average figure, which included the high wage earners in the city of London and the booming economy in the South East corner of England (which if I may say so were the result of the selfish policies of Mrs Margaret Thatcher), the figure used was almost double those of the average Scottish wage which at that time stood at £17,000 per year.

Looking closely at the figures and taking the year 2006 as a benchmark, I found that Scotland had an annual relative surplus of £2,8 billion, which works out at £560 for every man, woman and child.  In contrast the UK had a deficit of £34.8 billion.  

In November 2006, the U.N. published its annual "Human Development Index".  For the sixth year running, oil rich Norway topped the list, and won on such factors as generous welfare payments, education, high income and a long life expectancy.  Norway wisely created an "oil fund" in 1995 which in 5 years reached a total of £250 billion, so that Norway sailed through the Credit Crunch.   

Who are the real subsidy junkies?

Any lingering doubt that Scotland more than pays its way, or survives on subsidies, was dispelled by a new report published in October 2007.  Whilst the Daily Mail, which by no stretch of the imagination could be described as a supporter of Scottish nationalism, devoted a whole page to the analysis of the report which was based on tax paid per capita as against spending, Northern Ireland received £4,212 more than it paid in tax, North East England £3,133, Wales £2,990, N.W. England £1732, South West England £978, West Midlands £931, East Midlands £185 and lastly Scotland £38.  Only the South East corner produced a small surplus due to tax paid on the high wages within the city of London at this time (pre-Credit Crunch).

Analysis

It is no longer refuted that Scotland exports more per capita than the rest of the UK.  In 1968 when I first discovered that Scotland was in surplus in relation to the rest of the UK, its exports could be broken down into whisky, meat, timber, fish, and of course tourism which is a huge hidden income.  Those exports are supported by a population of only 5,000,000 as against 45,000,000 for the rest of the UK, quite a substantial advantage.

With the oil boom, Scotland's economy was transformed.  Scottish oil has to date funded the Treasury with £300 billion, which has pushed Scotland up from 7th place in World Wealth rankings, had it been in control of its own resources, to 3rd place.  

On 29 May 2008, Labour Chancellor Alistair Darling admitted in a back-handed way, that Scotland's oil revenue had been underwriting the UK's failure to balance its books for decades.  There is still 30 years of oil supply left in the North Sea (some 150 million barrels) valued at 2008 prices at 1 trillion dollars.  This excludes the new fields being brought into production in deeper waters west of Shetland.

Meantime whisky exports, which I listed in 1968 as one of Scotland's top assets, have risen at a phenomenal rate.  For example, whisky exports to China amounted to £1 million in 2000/2001, by 2007 they had risen to £70 million.  They have continued to rise, although I don't have more recent statistics.

On the economies of Independence, Scotland has also 18 times its requirements in North Sea gas, which on current trading is more expensive than oil.  The country exports 24% of its surplus electricity south of the Border, with much of the back-up by Hydro Electric unused.

Even if nuclear is excluded, the future looks bright, the new Glen Doe hydro station on Loch Ness which was opened by Scotland's First Minister last year can produce enough electricity for 240,000 homes.  Further projects down the Loch which have now reached the planning stage will increase this to over 1,000,000 homes.  Wind and wave energy will also contribute significantly in the future.

No doubt as the time draws nearer to the referendum on Scottish Independence, politicians will do their best to distort the figures, but the truth is something that never varies.


Before retiring, John Jappy was a senior civil servant in the Inland Revenue, working for the Accountant & Comptroller General's Branch based at Somerset House in London.  His duties involved liaising closely with Treasury officials to prepare accounts and financial information for UK government ministers.

Comments  

 
# 357ms 2012-01-31 23:32
[Online Editor - The sentence referred to in this comment was removed within minutes of publication as we believe it may have been inaccurate.

We would like to thank the poster 357ms for drawing it to our attention and will remove this thread of discussion relating to the sentence.

We have sought clarification from the author as to the meaning of the sentence in question and will update the article if we feel it necessary.]
 
 
# C2DEalba 2012-01-31 23:34
Wow, my old dad used to say that a vote for labour was a vote for poverty in Scotland. I am shocked in a way.

However, the media in the UK don't intend to deliver news or even truth mainly spin in particular the BBC.

SAOR ALBA and lets fix Scotland
 
 
# cirsium 2012-01-31 23:42
Wow was my reaction as well.

Thanks for this article Mr Jappy.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-01 00:33
Quoting cirsium:
Wow was my reaction as well.

Thanks for this article Mr Jappy.



Seconded on that thanks.
 
 
# Jonny 2012-01-31 23:48
Just shared this on facebook, here's hoping people take the time to read it. I've know for years that the London establishment lie about Scottish figures, but sometimes you need to read an article like this to show just how big and old the lie really is. Still makes my blood boil.
 
 
# mato21 2012-01-31 23:35
As I said on another thread we are the people

Case proven
 
 
# Fortitudine 2012-01-31 23:54
We are indeed!! Just shared this on my FB page... MSM have been burying this for years, times up now :)
 
 
# roger 2012-02-11 00:52
yes every new thread i post all over the place too, tho i get the feeling i may have went into overkill, and now anyone who sees my post passes it by without reading
 
 
# Fourfolksache 2012-01-31 23:37
This should be sent to every household in Scotland!Unioni sts lie about this every single day!
 
 
# Caledonian Lass 2012-02-01 10:35
Exactly what I was thinking, Fourfolksache. Along with this article, compulsory reading should also be the 40% of the electorate scam in 1979, the McCrone Report, the theft of 6,000 square miles of Scottish water, the dumping of armaments (e.g. Dalgety Bay and Beaufort's Dyke) depleted uranium shells being fired into the sea at Dundrennan, near Kirkcudbright, Scotland housing Trident and even Churchill's ordering that Gruinard should be bombarded with anthrax spores during WW2 to test the effects of chemical warfare. Actually, the list is probably too long to mention but it would soon reveal how badly Scotland has been treated.

If there were any people still wishing to vote for the unionists after that, I would be very surprised.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-31 23:50
Ah! Yes, Waldegrave, To quote an old song - "Oh! Yes I remember it well".

"Alex Salmond MP to the then Tory government, Treasury Minister William Waldegrave admitted that Scotland had paid a massive £27 billion more to the London Exchequer than it had received since the Tories came to power in 1979. Statistically this works out at £5,400 for every Scot".

I can hear it now in my head, I listened to the audio of that exchange several times. Waldegrave, was less that chuffed and very, very grudging.
 
 
# Tinyzeitgeist 2012-01-31 23:55
Truth, most of us are unacustumed to it.
 
 
# mato21 2012-01-31 23:57
That's nearly 11 times what it would take for those folk to vote for independence That's those who wanted to be £500 better off
 
 
# dundie 2012-02-01 01:25
They could claim I'd be £5k worse off, and I'd still vote for Independence. It's not just about money - that's a Thatcherite distraction. It's about the power to decide your own future without outside interference.
 
 
# Big Eye 2012-02-01 00:00
Could I suggest that one of our MSP's contact Mr happy and gain his assistance in framing the correct questions to be submitted at Westminster and through FOI requests to flush out these facts.

There is nothing more effective than having an ally who has worked inside the system, knows where the bodies lie and is wise to the cover up tricks that are used.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-01 00:39
Don't forget that it was Alex salmond, as a Wastemonster MP, who forced that truth out of Tory government, Treasury Minister William Waldegrave I indicated that I remembered it well. Don't you think that I also remembered that the Biased Broadcasting Corporation and MSM at that time were just as ready to bury the facts? I've been frustrated by that fact all my life.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-01 17:07
Quoting Big Eye:
Could I suggest that one of our MSP's contact Mr happy and gain his assistance in framing the correct questions to be submitted at Westminster and through FOI requests to flush out these facts.

There is nothing more effective than having an ally who has worked inside the system, knows where the bodies lie and is wise to the cover up tricks that are used.


Actually the party knows most of this but it is getting the info out to the people. Seems my constituency is leaflet dropping every week. Just wish I was less disabled and could help out. I have though several other great skills to offer them and will be doing so quite soon.
 
 
# macdoc 2012-02-01 00:01
A lot of comments will say that this is essential reading and should be distributed to every household in Scotland.

Well I agree let us the members of this site and others start printing out these articles and distributing them ourselves. Lets get off our chairs and the action starts now, the message is still not getting across, we need a clear majority going into the polls before I will be confident. LETS DO IT FOR SCOTLAND. I myself plan on printing out 1000 copies of these articles and hand delivering them. WHO WILL JOIN ME.

Social attitude surverys indicate that around 1/3 of people are scottish not british, andother 1/3 consider themselves scottish first then British, 1/4 equally scottish and british and the rest less than 10% are more British than Scottish or not Scottish at all. With results like these 70-80% of people should be hoping for Scottish independence if they are aware of the FACTS.
 
 
# dogbite 2012-02-01 00:19
I am with you my friend I want all of Aberdeenshire to see these facts. I am still a bit shocked at these relevations and will ask my MSP if he can help
 
 
# Sheltie 2012-02-01 22:04
Shetland for one needs to truly read these documents and understand directly what has been happening. I know for one I will send people this article to begin with
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-01 09:19
Where there's a will there's a way.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-01 17:10
[quote name="macdoc"]A lot of comments will say that this is essential reading and should be distributed to every household in Scotland.
quote]

Quite true but the better way to do the job is join in with your local branch and I'm sure they will be working very hard to get knowledge out to the masses and the faithful. BTW:For the young, out of work and OAP there are concessions in joining fee. £5 for OAPs
 
 
# Big Eye 2012-02-01 00:02
I was not anticipating the answers but I my spellcheck changed his name from Mr jappy to Mr Happy...sory
 
 
# J Wil 2012-02-01 00:45
Mr Happy?

That's the rest of us! Although Mr Jappy may be a happy chappy too.
 
 
# call me dave 2012-02-01 00:02
In about 1500 words a person with essential facts and accounting skills has laid out scenario which is devastating to the Unionist case.
In addition I venture to suggest that if you had been a victim of such a scam and rip off that any jury in the world would find you not guilty if you were to beat every Unionist prime minister since Ted Heath to death with a rolled up copy of the daily retard.

I rest my case.

Key to the dark room!
 
 
# clootie 2012-02-01 00:10
Roll on 2014
 
 
# Sheltie 2012-02-01 22:06
Do you think that the guy in the Sunday Post will help us get our money back, as he seems to help everyone who has been ripped off by unscrupulous traders, Maybe even BBC's rogue trader's might want to get involved......Sorry just woke up from a nice dream
 
 
# balbeggie 2012-02-01 00:08
A comprehensive education campaign to overturn the brainwashing that the population has received from the media and unionist inclined politicians for decades is now due. This in my view will be the key to the referendum campaign being very sucessful.
 
 
# WilliamO 2012-02-01 00:22
I'm of the old school that wants Independence for Scotland just because that's the way it should be. But this revelation from Mr. Jappy certainly adds a certain stamp to our belief.
 
 
# doe 2012-02-01 00:23
O/T but this is good for a belly laugh:

telegraph.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# Saltire Groppenslosh 2012-02-01 01:23
Haha, "Look, now we've got the full set !"
 
 
# bigbuachaille 2012-02-01 00:24
This is a great article which confirms the findings by Niall Aslen 'The Great Lie', 'The Great Deception' and 'The Great Obfuscation'.
These facts should be widely published and we should harry the MSM and BBC at every opportunity to get them out in the open.
Don't forget to keep mentioning 'The McCrone Report' and the Scottish-English Maritime Borders scandal. Most people (the crucial ones, when it comes to the important vote,) have never heard this information.
 
 
# Fortitudine 2012-02-01 00:29
I've been telling anyone who will listen and rather a lot who try not to too lol, about these, started printing bits of these articles off and leaving them lying about too :)
 
 
# dundie 2012-02-01 01:31
Niall's been on about this for years, why has it taken so long for people to wake up to the fact that he's been right all this time? Something to do with his association with a certain cultural organisation, I'm afraid - but did that compromise his research or his intellect? I think not, and he's due an apology from his detractors.
 
 
# Robert Louis 2012-02-01 00:24
wow!!

this article is phenomenal. I knew that Westminster had always lied about the oil, but this is a whole new level of deception.

so now we know, Scotland subsidises the UK, and has been doing so since at least 1968.


On another level, I am very angry.

Independence cannot come soon enough.
 
 
# Christian_Wright 2012-02-01 00:29
I think the likes of 357ms criticisms serve an invaluable function of vetting the information contained in the article, and in testing the thesis' robustness "under fire".

The same applies to the credibility and relevance of the author's bona fides. I have no reason to doubt the author's veracity or competence to render this analysis, but it is certain that others will.

If the article stands up well to close scrutiny it could prove a formidable weapon with which to arm the serried ranks of the independentista s.

I would suggest therefore that the moderator let the critics have at it, as a way of determining if the narrative is ready for prime time.

It does not matter much if the criticisms are even accurate, but whether they are seen to stick. It is certain that in the wider world of dark forces, the data will be denied and the author vilified.

I thank the author for his efforts and look forward to verification of his radical thesis. It's power lies in its accessibility - even I can understand it.

This is a campaign of optics and sound bites and your exposition lends itself well to exploitation in that regard. It is a message that can be readily disseminated to, and absorbed by, the electorate.
 
 
# Saltire Groppenslosh 2012-02-01 01:29
Yes, I agree with that, spot on. It has to stand up to scutiny otherwise it's worthless. I'm not trying to pour cold water on it because I really do want it to be water tight, but it has to pass the scrutiny test.

This could be more important and more accessible than the McCrone Report.

This, if found to be accurate could win us the bl**dy referendum.
 
 
# deepwater 2012-02-01 01:35
357ms only appears when articles are too close to the bone - he's certainly got an appearance of some odd type of Unionist lurker that makes attempts to creat confusion and obfuscation.

Recently I've noticed he/she will put a response that's completely unrelated to an early post to achieve that.

Just an observation and personal follow on logical conclusion mind you!
 
 
# Mei 2012-02-01 10:42
He is really SM753

blogger.com/.../...

Poor demented soul !
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-01 11:23
Oh dear. He's not a happy man, is he?
 
 
# Saltire Groppenslosh 2012-02-05 00:07
"See the blind man shooting at the world....wait for the ricochet".

Sweet Child in Time
 
 
# Teri 2012-02-01 20:48
You're right Mei. I didnt look to see what myths he's inventing on his site. Pair wee sowel, ah pity him.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-01 17:29
Hi, deepwater,

WE must be careful when we check these figures as the West of Shetland fields are NOT counted as North Sea Oil and Gas reseves. The for Norway they also have reserves in such as the Barnett's Sea that are not classed as North Sea reserves.

I'm sure a search for Norwegian Oil & Gas reserves and one for Scotland's will soon expose a fairly good figure.
 
 
# Ken500 2012-02-01 21:45
Quoting Auld Bob:
Hi, deepwater,

WE must be careful when we check these figures as the West of Shetland fields are NOT counted as North Sea Oil and Gas reseves. The for Norway they also have reserves in such as the Barnett's Sea that are not classed as North Sea reserves.

I'm sure a search for Norwegian Oil & Gas reserves and one for
Scotland's will soon expose a fairly good figure.


They are still in Scottish waters. Atlantic waters.
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-01 09:22
If this does stand up to said scrutiny, there would be some very interested publishing avenues available.
 
 
# Arraniki 2012-02-01 00:34
Pace 357ms 2012-01-31 22:32
"Norway, has of course, less than a third of the amount of oil than Scotland in its waters. "

Certainly true at the start of North Sea oil extraction. But successive UK governments rushed to exploit the black gold (to pay for mass unemployment and redundancies among other factors) whereas Norway sensibly decided on a slower extraction rate.
Norway has reportedly more oil left in its sector of N. Sea.
www.scaruffi.com/.../oil.html
It has now flagged up a new and massive oil fild in Barents Sea
reuters.com/.../...
 
 
# dundie 2012-02-01 01:34
Correct. British greed got in the way of technology and science. The money was needed now, and no heed was given to the future. Fortunately we can now go back and recover a large amount of oil from "exhausted" fields - exhausted only by the original methods of extraction, which have become more sophisticated as time has passed, plus we have learned from the early days that breenging into things does not always have the desired effect.
 
 
# clootie 2012-02-01 09:46
Arraniki

The issue is not only oil reserves. In many locations the political situation is unstable plus the profit is FIXED per barrel. In the UK the oil price increase is a true windfall to the oil companies and therefore a very attractive place to invest, Several companies are at present revising their North Sea reserve and aquisition policies.

You will see several takeover attempts in the next few years. It is a myth that the N/Sea will finish in the next 40 years - you can at least double that.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-01 17:31
Remember that not all Scottish Reserves are in the North Sea sector. The West of Shetland, new and developing are not North Sea Oil and gas.
 
 
# D_A_N 2012-02-01 00:35
As a couple of folk have already done. Could I suggest that we make this article the one we ALL share on our facebooks, if that is, we have an account. There are many many of us who come here. Let's try and get 100 shares for a start and hopefully it'll spread.

If someone could maybe word some kind of message to go along with it, that'd be great. I'm not a fan of these chain-mail type messages on facebook, but sometimes it's the only way to get folks attention and by seeing high numbers of shares others are encouraged to do so.

I'm not the best at wording, so I'd leave that to somebody else if anybody is up for it.

I'd suggest something along the lines of..

Can I spare you for one minute...
If you care about poverty.... equality........

.....

This is one of many many articles which will not make it to the main stream media.....

Please share this link and copy this statement to go along with it.





by the way I can't actually see the link to share yet on fb... Hmmm :\ ?
 
 
# The_Duke 2012-02-01 09:00
I think the page "Yes to an Independant Scotland has it. Like that page, if you haven't already and its their top story today.... from SNP Dingwall

facebook.com/.../...
 
 
# 1scot 2012-02-11 13:19
Right click the Facebook avatar and save the link, then post the link on your FB page.
 
 
# Edna Caine 2012-02-01 00:38
"Before retiring, John Jappy was a senior civil servant in the Inland Revenue, working for the Accountant & Comptroller General's Branch based at Somerset House in London. His duties involved liaising closely with Treasury officials to prepare accounts and financial information for UK government ministers."

I have no problem with Mr Jappy's overall assessment of the fiscal situation vis-a-vis Scotland but I'd like clarification of this statement. Do you really mean A&CG?

Admittedly, my experience of working for the IR in Somerset/Bush Houses dates only from the 80s but I can't remember us dealing with excise duties on whisky (HM Customs and Excise dealt with them). Nor were the ONS statistical returns as detailed as described. Maybe things were diferent back in the sixties.

Let's not get carried away by enthusiasm for a well-written article without being certain of all the facts behind it.

This is in some ways a better article than the above -

inchbrakie.tripod.com/.../...
 
 
# Legerwood 2012-02-01 01:01
I found this in the National Archives web site:

Quote:
In 1975, following recommendations made by the Management Review Committee, the income tax assessing and recovery work hitherto carried out by the Chief Inspector of Taxes and the Accountant and Comptroller General, was reconstituted in a merged regional structure overseen by management divisions. The Accountant and Comptroller General's Office was abolished and end of year accounting on a national basis became the responsibility of the newly created Finance Division's Central Accounting Office.

.../?iAID=1032&cref=

If he was preparing stuff for Ministers and liaising with the Treasury then he would probably accessed material from a range of Departments including the Customs and Excise which I think was a separate entity at that time. But no doubt yopu can put me right there.

I should imagine the figures for Whisky exports are in the public domain and easily accessed.
 
 
# Edna Caine 2012-02-01 01:22
Yes, that's correct.

CAO had a small presence in Somerset House with it's main staffing base in Worthing. It dealt with the consolidation of IR accounts at a national level. At a later stage, each revenue raising and spending department provided HM Treasury with "Regional" breakdowns.

HM Customs and Excise was then a distinct department.

Please note that I am not disputing Mr Jappy's basic message here, just trying to inject some clarity into the authority that is quoted to back it up. e.g. he was not a Senior Civil Servant.
 
 
# silvermcg 2012-02-01 01:08
And this is based on 45 dollars/
 
 
# J Wil 2012-02-01 01:18
barrel?
 
 
# Corm 2012-02-01 20:01
Quoting Edna Caine:
"Before retiring, John Jappy was a senior civil servant in the Inland Revenue, working for the Accountant & Comptroller General's Branch based at Somerset House in London. His duties involved liaising closely with Treasury officials to prepare accounts and financial information for UK government ministers."

I have no problem with Mr Jappy's overall assessment of the fiscal situation vis-a-vis Scotland but I'd like clarification of this statement. Do you really mean A&CG?

Admittedly, my experience of working for the IR in Somerset/Bush Houses dates only from the 80s but I can't remember us dealing with excise duties on whisky (HM Customs and Excise dealt with them). Nor were the ONS statistical returns as detailed as described. Maybe things were diferent back in the sixties.

Let's not get carried away by enthusiasm for a well-written article without being certain of all the facts behind it.

This is in some ways a better article than the above -

inchbrakie.tripod.com/.../...



Indeed.

However just going by how often the depts have changed over the years I still reckon its possible. Cant say I really buy it at face value though, just knowing what I do about the departments.

C&E was always up until the creation of R&C the dept that dealt with Duty. AFAIK it has always been effectivley centralised in Portcullis House Glasgow since the 80's but dont quote me.
 
 
# Highland Tiger 2012-02-01 00:45
Fantastic article, I wonder when Reporting Scotland will mention it?

For every argument the Unionists have, there should be an article like this to refute their claims. An ideal format would be a Q&A section/web page with a list of all the excuses the Unionists have for us to stay in the Union, and the subsequent link to articles like these to answer these claims.

There is a lot of very good information on here, but it gets lost through time, but a Q&A page would be quick and easy to implement without the need for any fancy coding to create a search facility.
 
 
# MAcandroid 2012-02-01 14:12
I am hoping that the Scottish Independence Convention website, when relaunched, will have a Q&A section or one where Unionist claims can be ripped asunder.
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-01 00:59
Is this the same Mr Jappy....

banthebomb.org/.../waste.html

Nuclear Waste - know the facts

John Jappy is an ex Captain, Royal Artillery and a former senior civil servant in London. He is a widely recognised authority on nuclear issues and is secretary of Highland CND and vice president of Scottish CND.


More from Mr Jappy....

blogger.com/.../...


Secrets of the Cold War
 
 
# J Wil 2012-02-01 01:05
Good old Alf Young, doing the tour of the TV studios tonight to give his words of wisdom on Fred's demise.

The BBC now have to wait for him to get over from STV. No first preference for them these days!
 
 
# Alba4Eva 2012-02-01 01:07
Can I instigate some thought on the title of this article by posing the question;
"Would Scotland remaining within the UK be financially sound?"
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-01 01:16
Quoting Alba4Eva:
Can I instigate some thought on the title of this article by posing the question;
"Would Scotland remaining within the UK be financially sound?"



Yes you're right alba how about

" Why an Independent Scotland would be financially sound? "
 
 
# agrippinilla 2012-02-01 10:26
Quoting Alba4Eva:
Can I instigate some thought on the title of this article by posing the question;
"Would Scotland remaining within the UK be financially sound?"


Absolutely right. "We can't afford to stay" is so much more accurate than suggesting we can't afford to leave.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-02-02 02:15
Instead of trying to prove Scotland is economically viable, someone should list the finacial losses to Scotland, over the years, of being part of the UK.
 
 
# ButeHouse 2012-02-01 01:08
Two things to remember about Oil.

1)Although anything up to 50% of the Oil has been squandered by London, the remaining 50% will be shared among 5 million Scots not 50 million Brits.

2) When Oil first came ashore in 1975 it was worth $10 a barrel. Today it's worth $110 and is unlikely to drop below $100 again, because of the insatiable needs of China and India, not to mention other emerging economies like Vietnam and Thailand.

Having Oil AND Gas is the equivalent of a country winning the Euro Lottery following weeks of roll-overs.

VOTE YES
 
 
# Alba4Eva 2012-02-01 08:46
Your point 2 addresses the increase in demand side. The increasing scarcity will push the price up even further still.

In 5 to 10 years, the price of oil will not drop below $200/brl.
 
 
# sneckedagain 2012-02-01 01:16
Should be put in the door of every house in Scotland as a well designed pamphlet
 
 
# 1314 2012-02-01 01:27
John -

Back in the bad old days of the Poll Tax when I was doing my bit withholding my tax, having my car pinded and eventually having to give up on the threat of having my wages arrested - I remember getting advice over the phone (I was in Glenrothes at the time) regarding sherifs officers etc from a Mr Jappy.

If it was your guidsel thanks again for your help and it's good to see that you are still helping out with invaluable experience/knowledge gained over the years.
 
 
# the wallace 2012-02-01 01:34
Its more people like this man here we need ,guys on the inside willing to do a bit of james bond tactics to get the truth out.
 
 
# Triangular Ears 2012-02-01 01:37
I do really appreciate this article and thank Mr Jappy for writing it, and don't want to appear to criticise, however, there's one aspect that puzzles me.

I wonder why people are so unquestioning in the first place? Why was a direct look at the books needed BEFORE the received wisdom was rethought. Why was the author "shocked"?

Maybe I was lucky to be brought up to question everything (although from what I'm told I was perfectly capable of doing that off my own bat). Even in the 80s, when I was a young boy, I could see Scotland was getting a raw deal. I knew about our history of invention, of our industry; and the evidence of industrial decline was all around me. I noticed the German cars on our roads, and British cars in our scrapyards.

Why are people, especially Scots, so ready to accept the rubbish we are told about ourselves?

The author is talking about the late 60s, before oil (but not coal), but this was also before the worst of the vandalism and destruction of industry of the 70s and 80s. Surely it would have been EVEN MORE obvious then that Scotland was wealthy and had massive potential if freed from London rule?

I realise this was before my time and cannot appreciate what life was like then, but I do despair at how people just accept anything and everything they are told.

I do however, feel thankful for those who have eventually seen the light, and once again thank the author for this piece.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-01 18:31
Three words, Triangular ears, SCOTTISH LABOUR PARTY. These are still the main force that braimwashes the people of Scotland. They have been backed all the way by the Tory, LibDem Parties and by the BBC and MSM. I've felt like that Biblical quote since the 1940s, "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness,

--------------------------

"Prepare ye the way of the Lord, SNP, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Eck. Every valley Glen shall be exalted, and every mountain Monroe, and hill Corbit, shall be made low: and the crooked, (Politicos), shall be made straight, and the rough places plain deed brilliant: And the glory of the Lord SG shall be revealed, and all flesh voters shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord SG hath spoken it.
Isaiah ch. 40, v. 3. Cf. St Matthew 618
 
 
# Saltire Groppenslosh 2012-02-01 01:40
I wiki'd him (John Jappy) and came up with this inchbrakie.tripod.com/.../...

Perhaps someone could contact the Dingwall SNP Branch and verify who John Jappy is and what his background is etc to add or detract from the provenance of this article. If I'm about I'll do it.
 
 
# balbeggie 2012-02-01 02:06
As a former IR employee I can confirm that Mr Jappy worked at Somerset House. He is a genuine guy.
 
 
# Soixante-neuf 2012-02-01 11:21
He's been writing very strong, pro-independence letters to the Herald for as long as I can remember. I can practically recall his postal address, from memory, having read it at the bottom of these letters so often.
 
 
# Saltire Groppenslosh 2012-02-01 01:58
ONLINE ED>>>> DO YOU THINK YOU COULD ASK MR PONSONBY TO CHECK OUT MR JAPPY's CREDENTIALS?
 
 
# robroy 2012-02-01 02:21
How they stole our oil

craigmurray.org.uk/.../...
 
 
# .Scot 2012-02-01 04:51
If they (Whitehall) were preparing for independence away back in 1999, would that explain why Gordon Brown dumped half of our gold reserves in Scotland's part-owned, Bank of England against the advice of the bank itself? Freedom of Information requests reveal that between 1999 (same year) and 2002, 17 auctions took place immediately before the price of gold soared. Perhaps there are many more such preparations for Scottish independence still to be unearthed?
 
 
# Saltire Groppenslosh 2012-02-01 02:21
I've emailed Nicola Sturgeon to see if she can find anything out about this to add provenance. I'll wait and see if I get anything back. She's usually very good so long as you don't waste her time. Just the facts Ma'am. (:D)
 
 
# kofk 2012-02-01 03:39
Let the Scottish Goverment do the business of running the country, and we can help by protesting especially regarding Scottish and worldy injustices
 
 
# kofk 2012-02-01 04:00
The Daily Mail sales figures are doing very well in Scotland,..Great news for the we are are to small, we eck ate our hamster brigade,remembe r, never let the truth get in the way of a good story,could i remind us all we are still along way off from Independence day, but its certainly within our grasp, to the point of annoying do not switch off, your family and friends need to see and hear what we believe to be the truth
 
 
# .Scot 2012-02-01 04:34
We have seen Labour falling apart over their support of the Tories and dropping the last of their 2011 manifesto promises. We have even seen Tories breaking ranks from their Unionist hive to consider a third question in the referendum. We must also be aware that not all Liberal Democrats will support Willie Rennie's Status Quo stance. Interesting times indeed.

scottish-liberal.blogspot.com/.../...
 
 
# D_A_N 2012-02-01 04:54
just reading. interesting so far.. one glaring mistake in the image at the top is that the '54.6% voted unionist parties' quote would imply that ONLY SNP support independence. haha. I mean, margo and the greens quite possibly add up to less than 1%, i don't know the figures but it doesn't matter.. It just shows the ignorance/lies of the unionist parties.

edit: finished reading. pretty interesting stuff. Sounds like he may convert, although he is only a photographer, so won't matter too much. I really hope at some point some MSPs start converting.. I doubt it tho.

actually this guys has mentioned here: scottish-liberal.blogspot.com/.../... that he is at the moment inclined to vote for independence. This guy is a true liberal which is not such a bad thing.
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-01 09:39
Mr Page has been a contributor to this site and is definitely wearing a white hat. He's no lover of the current regime, either in Scotland or Westminster. He carries all of the better Liberal values and would always be welcome for a chat and a dram. When LD publicists released the awful mocked up pictures of the FMs Abu Dhabi visit, Mr Page immediately wrote an article condemning the action, which later appeared here. He's also dropped in for the odd chat on threads.
 
 
# Andrew Page 2012-02-02 00:10
"He carries all of the better Liberal values and would always be welcome for a chat and a dram." Thanks, Macart. I'll have to take you up on that offer sometime!
 
 
# Roll_On_2011 2012-02-01 06:22
Well, well, well… this is the most crap article I have read to-date from the cretins in that rotting corpse called Westmidden.

Oil set to become battleground in Scottish independence referendum:

guardian.co.uk/.../...

You can almost smell the stench from the rotting corpse of Westmidden up in Aberdeen.
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-01 11:12
The minister who raised this is Charles Hendry, Minister of State for the Department of Energy and Climate Change

This is the same guy here...

telegraph.co.uk/.../...

MPs' expenses: Charles Hendry used public cash to pay for two servants
Charles Hendry, a shadow minister, claimed more than £7,300 in taxpayer-funded expenses to pay for domestic staff at his second home.
 
 
# ammacj 2012-02-01 07:00
O/T - BBC Scotland blog open

bbc.co.uk/.../...

Interesting for BBC to choose that story for comments, no?
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-01 11:13
Quoting ammacj:
O/T - BBC Scotland blog open

bbc.co.uk/.../...

Interesting for BBC to choose that story for comments, no?




That's how you can tell it is a Distraction ....

A few of the articles on the bbc that you can't comment on from the same web page......

Prime Minister defends EU treaty veto
Watch

New welfare defeat for ministers

Gove: Academy opponents 'Trots'

Government debt at record of £1tn


Concerns over 'rendition secrecy'

NHS changes branded 'unholy mess'
 
 
# govanite 2012-02-01 09:03
Having read Isobel Lindsay's letter in yesterday's Herald, I was wondering if anyone knows how we might get involved with this 'Civic' Scotland thing. Don't want them kicking for touch.
 
 
# Jim Johnston 2012-02-01 09:27
Thank you for a very informative read Mr Jappy.

As and when, or even if, a real debate is entered into by the Unionists, I'm sure there are many more rocks to be looked under, and facts to uncover, which will also prove very informative to all Scots who will decide Scotlands destiny one way or the other.

Everything has changed in the past 5 years, people are no longer blinded by the big lies.

This story will be "out of many, one" as the seal of the USA says. I believe we Scots will read, listen and learn, then vote YES.
 
 
# UpSpake 2012-02-01 09:28
With the total lack of investigative journalism in Scotland, such information that gets out there is basically in the form of press releases.
Since the media, both the MSM and the BBC are dyed in the wool unionist leaning the fog never clears and the average Scot is showered with the too wee, too poor lies.
It does take herculean effort to plow through GERS and to unravel the twisted statistics to even hope to arrive at a true assessment of Scotlands financial position.
The SNP have done their best at exposing the myths perpretrated by the unionists but it is not nearly enough.
Luckily through NNS and the like such myths are dispelled. As electronic media becomes the norm and the print media dies away more people will get to know the truth and help accelerate the decline of the traditional parties. When that happens new politics will arrive in Scotland to the benifit of all.
Perhaps that day is not too far off.
 
 
# Lupus Incomitatus 2012-02-01 09:42
I would love to have the Hansard reference and be able to stick the link into blogs on the D Torygraph and Daily Wail.
 
 
# Holebender 2012-02-01 13:15
publications.parliament.uk/.../...

The article gives the date and the names of those involved, so it wasn't hard to search for it.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-01 19:53
Quoting Holebender:
publications.parliament.uk/.../...

The article gives the date and the names of those involved, so it wasn't hard to search for it.


My memory was that the Minister near blew a gasket and blustered a bit attempting to tell Alex he was distorting the figures by picking the wrong ones to use.
Aye! Richt!
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-01 09:45
This is a very good article which could, (once Mr Jappy's bona fides are verified), well be a cracking article. I don't think anyone here would argue with the history lesson or the moral implications of the article, but to have yet another ex civil service source quote chapter and verse publicly about Westminster hamstringing democracy, that's another kettle of fish entirely. Certainly worth contacting any and all sympathetic outlets with this article as and when we're sure it's the real deal.
 
 
# Giric 2012-02-01 09:54
ED. Can we use this piece on line elsewhere?

Please put a link to our site rather than reproduce whole article. Mod Team
 
 
# Lupus Incomitatus 2012-02-01 10:05
I am trying to open up the

www.alba.org.uk

site but it diverts to somewhere else totally different.

Has Niall Aslen's site changed its address?
 
 
# maisiedotts 2012-02-01 10:48
I think it has. The file Obfuscation is there though but not on that site.

www.siol-nan-gaidheal.org/.../

Found the Great Deception file on the same site

www.siol-nan-gaidheal.org/.../

The Big Lie is on angelfire

angelfire.com/.../biglie.html
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-01 19:59
Quoting Lupus Incomitatus:
Has Niall Aslen's site changed its address?


I opened it all right this forenoon, may be down for update or suchlike.
 
 
# Ken500 2012-02-01 10:29
Scotland has been putting on average £10Billion of Oil tax revenues to Westminster for the last 30 years, which doesn't come back. While being lumbered with a 9% of Westminster excessive borrowing which Scotland never sees a penny.
 
 
# Saltire Groppenslosh 2012-02-01 10:30
HELLO FELLOW CYBERNATS,

FROM WHAT I'VE FOUND OUT SO FAR, THE CREDENTIALS OF THIS STORY CHECK OUT.

ANY STATEMENT SUCH AS THIS MUST ALWAYS CARRY RESERVATIONS UNTIL THE LAST PIECE OF EVIDENCE IS RECEIVED AND THE ARTICLE IS CAPABLE OF ROBUST SCRUTINY BY ALL.

I JUST THOUGHT I'D LET YOU KNOW.

GET IT USED, GET US INDEPENDENT.
 
 
# tartanfever 2012-02-01 10:34
Thanks SG.

Just posted it on the 'hootsman' website and off to do some other papers. Can I suggest people do the same ? Doesn't matter about multiple posting, there's going to be some modding I'm sure.
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-01 10:38
Time for an email or two I think. Cheers SG
 
 
# The_Duke 2012-02-01 11:38
Awesome.... Thank you.
 
 
# jim288 2012-02-01 20:17
Quoting Saltire Groppenslosh:
HELLO FELLOW CYBERNATS,

FROM WHAT I'VE FOUND OUT SO FAR, THE CREDENTIALS OF THIS STORY CHECK OUT.

ANY STATEMENT SUCH AS THIS MUST ALWAYS CARRY RESERVATIONS UNTIL THE LAST PIECE OF EVIDENCE IS RECEIVED AND THE ARTICLE IS CAPABLE OF ROBUST SCRUTINY BY ALL.

I JUST THOUGHT I'D LET YOU KNOW.

GET IT USED, GET US INDEPENDENT.



Don't shout.
 
 
# Edna Caine 2012-02-01 23:28
SG -

Fair enough. If you're happy with the article after all your research that's good enough.

I still believe that it requires editing to remove some glaring contradictions.

The message in the article is valid and should be spread as widely as possible but it is nothing new. Much of what it says is a matter of public record and its import should not be compromised by exaggerated or inaccurate claims about its provenance.

Sorry for talking somewhat in riddles. It's to do with ammunition.
 
 
# Ken500 2012-02-01 10:34
All of Aberdeenshire know the facts. They see the meters running on the rigs. That is why they vote for Alex Salmond and the SNP. It is the rest of Scotland that has to waken up.

It is an absolute scandal.
 
 
# Vincent McDee 2012-02-01 10:40
"The pound is a poison pill for an independent Scotland"
by John Kay


A currency union requires that everyone believes a Scottish pound is indistinguishab le from an English pound, otherwise the costs and uncertainties associated with separate currencies are unavoidable. And equivalence can exist only if it is believed to be irrevocable. That outcome can be achieved by a treaty, with appropriate fiscal rules – although the eurozone experience means that the world will in future take a sceptical view of similar arrangements.

Such a treaty could certainly be agreed. It might, however, cause people to start wondering what the point of independence was in the first place."

Read more:
ft.com/.../...

Also:

A new report has condemned ministers for keeping evidence against nuclear power from MPs.

The report, entitled ‘A corruption of governance?’ was written by MPs and industry experts, and suggested that ministers had misled parliament and distorted the arguments against building new nuclear power plants. A spokesman for the Department for Energy and Climate Change said that they were confident that initial ministerial communications were robust.

guardian.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# Electric Hermit 2012-02-01 10:51
Quoting Vincent McDee:
"The pound is a poison pill for an independent Scotland"
by John Kay


A currency union requires that everyone believes a Scottish pound is indistinguishab le from an English pound, otherwise the costs and uncertainties associated with separate currencies are unavoidable. And equivalence can exist only if it is believed to be irrevocable. That outcome can be achieved by a treaty, with appropriate fiscal rules – although the eurozone experience means that the world will in future take a sceptical view of similar arrangements.

Such a treaty could certainly be agreed. It might, however, cause people to start wondering what the point of independence was in the first place."


All of which ignores the fact that most of the existing currency unions are informal. Including the US dollar. And they seem to function reasonably well.

Once again we have anti-independence propaganda seeking to suggest that Scotland is the exception, without ever explaining why.
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-01 11:29
You can read the article....

"The pound is a poison pill for an independent Scotland"
by John Kay

here
johnkay.com/.../...
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-01 20:16
Quoting Vincent McDee:
"The pound is a poison pill for an independent Scotland"
by John Kay


There are a few wrong assumptions there though, The Bank Of England is NOT English. It belongs, just now, to the United Kingdom . The, "Treaty Of Union", that gave birth to the, "Joint United Kingdom Parliament", had but two, equal sovereign Countries, as signatories. Then in 1946 the UK Parliament nationalised the BofE as the State Bank. Thus Scotland owns part of that Bank, there is no mention of per capita shares in The Treaty Of Union. Nor it sther geographic shares. Then we had Gordon Brown make the BofE an independent company in 1998. So the claim is based upon false assumptions. It will be international law that decides how the assets and debts of the Union are shared NOT the Wastemonster Government. That parliament is not an elected English Government and will legally cease to exist. A non-ecistant body cannot negotiate. To be legal the Queen must summon someone to form, "Her Majesty's English Government and an election must be run to elect members. Furthermore, It Is Her Majesty's UK Treasury and England has no claim upon it greater than that of Scotland. Have fun sorting that lot out.
 
 
# Ken500 2012-02-01 10:41
Total taxes raised in Scotlnd last year £48Billion (including £9 Billion in Oil tax revenues).

Scottish Block Grant £27 Billion + £16Billion in pensions etc. = £43
A difference of £5Billion.

This year Oil & Gas revenues are £13.5Billion
The Scottish Block Grant is being cut £1.3Billion a year

A difference of £10Billion
Westminster also adds on a 9% of the borrowing which Scotland never sees no one penny, nearly £20Billion.

Plus the illegal wars base on a lie and Trident.
 
 
# Old Smokey 2012-02-01 11:45
Hi Ken500
can you clarify this years figures as to how you get the difference of £ 10 billion - Im probably being a bit thick, so for me its big crayons and sketchpad ;)
 
 
# Wee-Scamp 2012-02-01 10:51
OT but would be disappointed if SNP agreed to this....

telegraph.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# Robert Louis 2012-02-01 11:15
They won't. This is the usual rubbish we expect from London and their chums in the BritNAT Torygraph newspaper.

It is SNP policy not to accept places in the unelected and wholly disreputable 'House of Lords'.

You see, this shows clearly how the unionists in London think. They offer baubles and ermine robes as a way of ensnaring the SNP to become 'one of them'.

Lucifer himself would be proud.
 
 
# Saltire Groppenslosh 2012-02-01 11:26
Yes, I agree. They should collect beer bottle tops or thimbles or something. They just want to say that they've "got the full set now" with the final addition of the SNP bod wearing ermine.

I honestly and deeply wish that this peerage would be refused by whomever it was offered to, it would cause the SNP untold damage politically bcause they would be seen to be buying into the establishment in all its finery and falsehood. One voice in the "other place" wouldn't do us any good.
 
 
# Jim Johnston 2012-02-01 17:25
Every family has a black sheep Saltire, but I would be surprised if any former SNP member, either MSP, MP or private citizen, were to accept being another empty cloak.

Of course the day after accepting you can bet they would be an ex-member of the SNP.
 
 
# GrassyKnollington 2012-02-01 11:53
The view from many in the south is that the SNP don't really want independence they just want more money from England.

When you accept that fundamental misunderstandin g you can immediately see how they would think the SNP might be seduced by the House of Lords gravy train the way the rest of the parties are.

They can't get their heads around what the SNP stand for so all that they can relate to is what drives them.

I actually heard David Steel saying the SNP should be in the House of Lords recently.

Of course they'd be delighted if it happened because they could begin by castigating them for wanting to be part of the establishment they had denounced and on a personal level they'd feel satisfied that the SNP were "after" the exact same things they were. All snouts in the trough together.

Happily disappointment and a continuing failure to understand the entire raison d'etre of the SNP awaits them.
 
 
# Jim Johnston 2012-02-01 17:31
Hi GK,

Steele has made such a statement several times. The Boy David maybe has errotic dreams about it. I hope he grows out of it, but it's getting quite late in the day for him.
 
 
# Soixante-neuf 2012-02-01 12:24
Even if you took the view that it would be advantageous to have an SNP representation in the Lords, who is there?

Connery is just a joke, he isn't a politician and has no grasp of strategy. And he wouldn't attend. If this was going to be done it would require someone with the guile of Machiavelli and the gravitas of the Pope. Who is there?

Alan Macartney is dead. So is Neil MacCormick. Winnie is elderly and wouldn't do it. Who else would be up to it? Chris Harvie? I don't think so.

It's a non-starter.
 
 
# Holebender 2012-02-01 14:43
George Reid (former Presiding Officer) would be the most likely candidate, I think.
 
 
# Vincent McDee 2012-02-01 21:58
Nah!

Jim Sillars for skunked ermined.
 
 
# bringiton 2012-02-01 11:25
Being a non-dom Con didn't stop Lord Ashcroft being "peer'd" or as being deputy chair of the Con party.
So their argument against Sean Connery being a non-dom (but not a Con non-dom) do not hold.
Just the same old same old from a corrupt duplicitous political structure who hand out honours to "old relics".
 
 
# Old Smokey 2012-02-01 11:42
Saw the Panorama programme on Ashcroft
[Comment removed - NNS Mod]
 
 
# J Wil 2012-02-01 11:26
Just seen on Sky News that one of Cameron's considerations behind the removal of Sir Fred's knighthood was his intention to damage Alex Salmond because of his letter of support to Goodwin at the time of the takeover that went wrong.

Salmond can't have been the only one supporting the move so someone needs to do a bit of digging to neutralise this.

Public opinion already seems to be split on whether it was fair to do this to Goodwin in the way it was done, so that should make people think who the baddies actually are in all this.

Many people saying why should there still be one-time criminals in the Lords, dictating policy to the rest of us. Then there is the culpability of Brown and Darling who did nothing to stop the situation developing. Indeed their policies positively encouraged it.

Darling coming out this a.m. saying Goodwin being treated unfairly. I can't avoid feeling his motivation in doing this is political because of his part in it. Darling claims he warned Goodwin. Did he really?

The whole thing stinks of hypocrisy.
 
 
# bringiton 2012-02-01 11:35
Absolutely J Wil.
People need to remember that although it is true that Fred drove the privately owned RBS into the ground,it was DARLING and BROWN who made the decision to use tax payers money to bail them out.
DARLING is probably worried about his future prospects of being "honoured" or "peer'd" and so he should be.
If these people had been operating in Iceland,some of them would be in jail by now.It appears that no one in Westminster has any interest in getting to the bottom of the RBS failure presumably because too many others would come under close scrutiny for their part in the financial meltdown.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-01 20:38
Quoting bringiton:
It appears that no one in Westminster has any interest in getting to the bottom of the RBS failure presumably because too many others would come under close scrutiny for their part in the financial meltdown.


Why do they need to get to the bottom of it? The fault was, without doubt, the failure of the Wastemonster to regulate the Financial Sector. Just as they have gone ahead with making the whole UK, and particularly the poorest members of society, pay for the failure THE GOVERNMENT made. At this very moment the UK government is attempting to cut benefits from recovering cancer patients, cuttish disabled people's incomes. Not a sign of stopping the obscene incomes plus bonus the Financial sector is still awarding itself EVEN FOR THOSE WHO HAVE FAILED TO BOOST THE COMPANY'S INCOMES. Bonus is suposed to be payment by results.
 
 
# Old Smokey 2012-02-01 11:40
It should be noted, as we know it was Brown that gave Goodwin the knighthood.
It was the FSA that was created by Labour that was supposed to be keeping an eye on the Banking sector

The unionist media are making more play about the letter of support from Alex Salmond, but lets have a reality check, Alex Salmond was not privy to what was going on in RBS, or ABN Amro, or the UK Cabinet.
Its curious that Barclays were also going after ABN Amro, but Goodwin was 'encouraged' to go for it. RBS pipped Barclays, again no checks by either the Bank of England or FSA
It was if there was some covert encouragement going on and the 'security guards' (FSA) quietly went for a tea break. Goodwin now comes accross as the type of guy that, if told you cant do that, or you wouldnt be able to do that, he will go ahead regardless and I think Downing Street knew this.

What is also emerging just know is more propaganda from the lieks of Osborne and the media pundits, stating that it was purely RBS that created the economic mess of the UK, some last night went further and stated it was RBS that caused the World economic mess
 
 
# Louperdowg 2012-02-01 11:45
The BBC keep repeating the lie that the government HAD to bail out RBS.

They didn't have to bail them out at all.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-01 11:56
They also have it as a 'Scottish' story, for some reason.
 
 
# edinburghdave 2012-02-01 11:58
Quoting J Wil:
Just seen on Sky News that one of Cameron's considerations behind the removal of Sir Fred's knighthood was his intention to damage Alex Salmond because of his letter of support to Goodwin at the time of the takeover that went wrong.

Salmond can't have been the only one supporting the move so someone needs to do a bit of digging to neutralise this.

Public opinion already seems to be split on whether it was fair to do this to Goodwin in the way it was done, so that should make people think who the baddies actually are in all this.

Many people saying why should there still be one-time criminals in the Lords, dictating policy to the rest of us. Then there is the culpability of Brown and Darling who did nothing to stop the situation developing. Indeed their policies positively encouraged it.

Darling coming out this a.m. saying Goodwin being treated unfairly. I can't avoid feeling his motivation in doing this is political because of his part in it. Darling claims he warned Goodwin. Did he really?

The whole thing stinks of hypocrisy.


All that needs to be said is that AS was lending his support to what was seen at the time as the mostpowerful bank in the world. AS wasnt aware of the balance sheets. In fact AS ended up not having anything to to with either RBS or fred goodwin. All it was was a letter of support to a succesful businessman at that time. AS meant to have a crystal ball now is he?
 
 
# The_Duke 2012-02-01 12:00
I hope this comes up and bites Camoron in the kahuna's

news.bbc.co.uk/.../default.stm
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-01 12:37
No one was saying bad things about Mr. Goodwin back then....

scotsman.com/.../...

Queen opens £350m bank HQ

They were introduced to dignitaries including Scottish Secretary Alistair Darling, Edinburgh's Lord Provost Lesley Hinds, and Lothian and Borders Chief Constable Paddy Tomkins.

Mr McConnell hailed the new headquarters - which will house 3250 staff - as a symbol of Scotland's ambitions.

He said: "Building world-class Scottish companies that are competitive across global markets is a central part of our strategy for developing a modern and prosperous Scottish economy.

"The Royal Bank of Scotland is a perfect realisation of that ambition.

"Their commitment to a headquarters in Scotland confirms that we are creating the right business environment to attract and retain the headquarters of globally successful companies.

"The state-of-the-art offices here in Gogarburn are a fitting home for RBS and a real tribute to the quality and skills of their Scottish workforce."
 
 
# Saltire Groppenslosh 2012-02-01 11:32
I'm off to "Labourhame", does anyone want to join me?

There's a lot of work to do in the 30 months before the referendum.

Labour supporters to convince, respectfully of course. Let's get this debate on a proper footing where everyone has their say without being shouted down. It desn't really matter about their politics, what matters is that they are Scottish folk with a vote in the referendum who need to hear not just their side of the argument but ours so that they can make a properly informed choice and not just do what their leadership tell them to do.
 
 
# edinburghdave 2012-02-01 12:24
Quoting Saltire Groppenslosh:
I'm off to "Labourhame", does anyone want to join me?

There's a lot of work to do in the 30 months before the referendum.

Labour supporters to convince, respectfully of course. Let's get this debate on a proper footing where everyone has their say without being shouted down. It desn't really matter about their politics, what matters is that they are Scottish folk with a vote in the referendum who need to hear not just their side of the argument but ours so that they can make a properly informed choice and not just do what their leadership tell them to do.



Flicked over to labourhame for the first time. I have to say that I am unimpreseed about the lack of quality on that site. I can see why the electorate are turning thier back on labour. This site is a closed talking shop, mashing up the same old rhetoric, whilst the people os Scotland have looked at what this mob can offer, said "no thanks" and moved on, shaking thier heads.Meanwhile, the labour party become more and more insular. The artilce 'when will thier be jobs' is utter vacuuous jibberish, with the author not looking at the big picture and tut-tutting at a figure without context.
 
 
# farrochie 2012-02-01 12:38
It is almost impossible to debate with some of the Labour commenters. On the Ed Milliband speech, I'm trying to correct one of them who says there will be a new border "a border that didnt exist".
 
 
# farrochie 2012-02-01 13:25
And from the same gentleman “...hate Labour for Iraq – after all, more of our MPs voted against it than for it.”

MPs AND WAR ON IRAQ
Labour: Votes cast were YES 244 NO 69 TOTAL 313

All of the LibDems, Scottish National Party and a few others voted NO.
 
 
# Saltire Groppenslosh 2012-02-01 20:32
I think we've got to try. I chose an article with a long list of questions and tackled them one at a time. The moderators left me alone because my tone was measured, never condescending, never patronising and always respectful. I was also allowed to link to newsnet scotland. I think they are interested in hearing the arguments. It's not about getting them to vote for SNP, it's getting to air a positive vision and point of view of independence which is perhaps something that they haven't had before. The general impression of visitors to the site I got was one of people shouting in their faces with some of the posts, and what kind of response do you think they'd give back?

Let's all try visiting Labourhame and being quiet and respectful whilst we're in their house. The softly made point has a bigger audience.

If you disagree with someone's opinion there's a way of putting it so that you don't actually have to cause offence whereby otherwise it would just turn into a mudslinging match and no ones views or opinions get heard.
 
 
# farrochie 2012-02-02 10:05
Agreed, I usually select one point and answer it with facts.
 
 
# bigbuachaille 2012-02-01 11:34
Does anyone know anything about this?:
35.
At 11:14 27th Jan 2012, minuend wrote:

Is there any truth to the story going round that a BBC Scotland editor aimed a whole heap of vitriolic abuse at Alex Salmond, when he was making his announcement on a Scottish referendum at Edinburgh Castle, in front of other BBC Scotland colleagues and nothing was said or done about it?

Is that the norm at Pacific Quay

The question was posed on the Newsweekscotlan d blog which is run by Derek Bateman.
 
 
# Marga B 2012-02-01 11:50
Any reference to this blog? Can't seem to find it on the Newsweek page.
 
 
# balbeggie 2012-02-01 11:58
it is here

bbc.co.uk/.../...

comment 35 has the question.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-02-01 11:58
It seems that The Derek Batemen blog has been buried by the Beeb. A search does nothing to give up to date information. However, Douglas Fraser and Brian Taylor are easy to find.
 
 
# Louperdowg 2012-02-01 11:51
In a similar vein, I was at an SNP conference in Eden court a few years ago and was sat right behind the BBC TV console, replete with David Porter, the Westminster editor.

Stewart Hosie was about to speak and the VT titles girl said to Porter, "How do you spell Hosie?"

"Who cares?" came the sneering reply.

At that, the girl started to type Hosy so I kindly pointed out the error of her ways.

Neither Porter or the girl were amused :)
 
 
# mato21 2012-02-01 11:57
I did read somewhere that Alan Cochrane was rude Have no idea about the truth of that as I did not see the Q&A session

He was reported as saying something along the lines of "you heard me " when asked by the FM to repeat his question

If true I cannot imagine any other leader being spoken to in front of the worlds press in such a way

Mind you from Cochrane I wouldn't be surprised He comes over as an ignorant arrogant slavering ranter
 
 
# rog_rocks 2012-02-01 12:54
I heard Alan Cochrane saying "you heard me" to Alex Salmond who could have ignored him at that stage, perhaps with an upward glance, and moved on to the next reporter.

I would define Alan Cochrane as an English person :-) although I daresay he would prefer to consider himself as British, whatever that means, in my view a term coined to promote anti-Scottish racism.

I've been trying to find out who it was after the signing treaty of Union 1707 in the newly formed UK parliament, who said;

"We have catch'd Scotland, and we will bind her fast"

A statement which maybe Alan Cochrane would have been proud of... at first I heard it was a commissioner, then the speaker of the house in 1708, I guess this would make it either a man called Sir John Smith of Andover, or possibly his replacement Sir Richard Onslow of Surrey?
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-01 22:12
Rog_rocks,
Searced my extensive dictionary of quotes-
This was all I found -

In 1707 when the Speaker of the English Parliament was informed that the Scottish Parliament had voted in favour of the Treaty of Union he reportedly said -

"We have catch'd Scotland and we will not let her go."

I assume there will be records of that parliament's sessions as in Hansard. but this was before Hansard. In fact until 1771 it was very secrative with punishments for members. Even the press editors were fined for reports of parliaments sessions.
 
 
# cynicalHighlander 2012-02-01 23:04
Following "We have catch'd Scotland, and we will bind her fast" led me to forscotland.com: www.forscotland.com/aou.html
 
 
# rog_rocks 2012-02-02 02:01
Thanks for those replies, I can vagualy remember someone mentioning it on newsnet a few weeks ago, I googled it then but didn't find much, then a few days ago someone posted this link;

irishdemocrat.co.uk/.../...

which mentioned it again stating;

Quote:
However, its provisions were immediately broken by England who imposed their will by having an in-built English majority in the parliament: "We have catch'd Scotland and would keep her fast," chortled the Speaker of the English House of Commons in 1708.


~ would it not have been a British house of commons by then? Anyway it was a surprise to me, I didn't get this in history at school, the only other thing I have found is that in 1708 there were two speakers of the house but the one who was active during the treaty of union was a Sir John Smith;

en.wikipedia.org/.../...

Auld Bob I guess that's two pieces of evidence pointing towards the speaker of the house, it would be good to hear more and thanks for the link cynicalHighland er, it looks interesting, hopefully there be something of it in there, I'll keep it for tomorrow as time marches on, cheers :-}
 
 
# Holebender 2012-02-01 14:54
When I heard it I took it as no more than banter between two long time adversaries. It wasn't rude in context and I think some people should stop being so thin skinned. I'm sure the First Eck can take care of himself.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-01 14:57
Indeed. There are plenty of examples of blatant bias to complain about. Complaining about a bit of banter just dilutes the genuine complaints and allows the media to reinforce their stereotype of 'whinging Scots'.
 
 
# rog_rocks 2012-02-01 15:18
Yes, watched it again and agreed, it was just a bit of banter, maybe he'll be changing his mind though on his anti-independence stance along with many others once they start to understand the facts as highlighted by John Jappy above.
 
 
# Stevie Cosmic 2012-02-01 12:23
Cochrane was particularly nasty to Salmond at that event.

If you watch the whole proceedings on the SNP Youtube channel, at 43 mins in is Cochrane's question.

At one point the FM asked Cochrane to repeat the last part of the question to which he retorted:
'You heard me'
in the most disingenuous and condescending tone.

I cringed at that moment. A room full of international press, and a Scots hack brings the proceedings down to that level of exchange?
 
 
# snowthistle 2012-02-01 12:40
sorry, I took it as a more jocular exchange, Cochrane had said that the FM had been right about something and in an amazed tone the FM said "could you repeat that last bit".
They were having a bit of bannter
 
 
# Stevie Cosmic 2012-02-01 13:01
I wonder if you or I could find any other examples of this kind of 'jocular exchange' between a british hack and a very senior politician at an internationally attended press conference?

I think you are being too kind snowthistle, given the vitriolic bile that Cochrane is known for in the Torygraph.
 
 
# snowthistle 2012-02-01 13:08
I'm listening to it now, it's quite a long clip so will take a while to find it
 
 
# snowthistle 2012-02-01 13:19
It's at 0.43 listen to it, I'm right, it's not often that I would defend Cochrane but he said "...and you might well be right about that"
The FM replied "could you repeat that last bit"
AC "no, no you heard me"
FM "but you said I might be right about something"

It was banter
 
 
# Holebender 2012-02-01 14:57
Completely agree.
 
 
# Stevie Cosmic 2012-02-01 18:37
Then we'll need to agree to disagree.

I've never heard a senior politician being treated that way at a press conference. Cochrane's tone is undeniably patronising, and where I would concede that perhaps the FM was indulging in his usual witty repartee, Cochrane's reply dragged the tone of the proceedings down to gutter press level - that really was NOT the way to answer.

Cochrane is as bad as Paxman and his ilk in this respect. Where I am confident in the abilities of SNP ministers' performances in press conferences and live debates, I am sure I am not the only person who has come to the conclusion that they are treated 'differently' from other ministers and junior ministers.
 
 
# tilly 2012-02-01 13:05
The mike clarity certainly dropped when Cochrane began his question, hence Alex Salmond asking him to repeat the first part.

Cochrane's response, typical of the man, was, "Naw, naw, ye heard me."
 
 
# call me dave 2012-02-01 22:12
Quoting snowthistle:
sorry, I took it as a more jocular exchange, Cochrane had said that the FM had been right about something and in an amazed tone the FM said "could you repeat that last bit".
They were having a bit of bannter




In his preamble to his question Cochrane
seemed to concede that 16/17yr olds should be able to vote in the referendum. 'The First Eck' pretended to be shocked and asked for that bit to be repeated.

It was a bit of banter but I agree Cochrane could have been more amenable to it.
 
 
# Old Smokey 2012-02-01 12:55
Link is at www.youtube.com/.../
It was indeed disgraceful behavior by Cochrane
but unsurprising from him
Interesting that Cocharne was sitting next to Eddie Barnes, how cosy for two arch unionists to keep each other company and share there bile
 
 
# MDO 2012-02-01 11:41
Here is the Hansard link:

publications.parliament.uk/.../...
 
 
# Lupus Incomitatus 2012-02-01 16:27
Thanks
 
 
# Pibroch 2012-02-01 11:49
Lupus was looking for the Hansard reference for the question asked by Alex Salmond quoted in the article. Here it is:
publications.parliament.uk/.../...
 
 
# Lupus Incomitatus 2012-02-01 16:32
Thanks


I will reply in a bit more detail here but it goes without saying that I am replying to both "helpers"

It shows that Scotland does indeed subsidise the rest of the UK and remember these figures were concocted before the Gers reports were forensically taken apart by Niall U'Aislainn in The Big Lie et seq
 
 
# ianbeag 2012-02-01 11:57
This article, together with the massive cover-up by Westminster in the 1970's in respect of the value of Scotland's oil could have a profound effect on the attitude of Scots when it comes to the Referendum vote. We have to give both of these items the widest distribution for the voters to be aware of the total dishonesty at the heart of Westminster.
Slightly O/T but worth viewing europarltv.europa.eu/.../.... This video interview from the European Parliament TV features Alyn Smith. How refreshing to watch an interview where the respondent is allowed to complete a sentence without interruption - we're not used to that from the BBC.
 
 
# Regularbarfly 2012-02-01 12:05
In the 'who are the real subsidy junkies?' section of Mr Jappy's article, he mentions a report that was published in October 2007 and analysed in the Daily Mail. I'd very much like to read both the report and the Daily Mail article. Can anyone provide me with the titles of them or links to them? Thanks in advance.
 
 
# moujick11 2012-02-01 20:42
I'm pretty sure the study that he was talking about was this one.Breakdown figures are on page 23.:-

isitfair.co.uk/.../...).pdf
 
 
# farrochie 2012-02-01 12:08
NNS, Something is not correct in the following statement:

"There is still 30 years of oil supply left in the North Sea (some 150 million barrels)"

From a recent DECC Publication: og.decc.gov.uk/.../...

Around 40 billion barrels of oil equivalent produced so far.
Anticipate around 20 billion remain.

As we know, a large proportion of the oil and much of the gas is in Scotland's "EEZ" in the Northern North Sea, Moray Firth and Central Graben, and in the Faroe-Shetland Basin.

There is presumably "Yet To Find" oil and gas in the Rockall Basin.
 
 
# clootie 2012-02-01 12:35
A medium sized field would be of the order of 450million barrels recoverable - around 40 to 50% of the oil in situ. Given the recovery margin was 33% 30 years ago then new technology increases the design life (+ price of course). Reserves are in billions and 20billion is conservative as companies cannot inflate their value with artificial reserves).

Watch the next license round coming up for an indication of how much is still to play for.
 
 
# Gaavster 2012-02-01 12:41
Lets not forget the Kilbrannan Sound either Farrochie
 
 
# farrochie 2012-02-01 12:56
clootie, Gaavster, half of my 30 years in oil and gas was spent in new business development. The changes that took place over that time have been amazing, and I'm sure there is much more technology advance to come in the future.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-01 22:24
Be careful of such statements as they can be misleading. If just headed North Sea that is not the total Oil & Gas as there are now the West of Shetland sectors and more coming on stream all the time. New fields and thus the are not depleated.
 
 
# art1001 2012-02-01 12:22
Brian Wilson of course would see no need for such deception. Scotland always 'knew' it was wealthy but would never want to 'keep it for itself' because that would have meant it would be 'selfish'.

Much better to give it all away to London to be shared out 'equitably' by him and his trougher mates. Just in case of course - better keep it all secret. Scotland must be the perfect colony - the natives do not even 'resent' being colonised they 'want' to be colonised.

One thing that cheered me up. In the latest poll, the most deprived areas (labour of course)are the ones most pro independence. Logical of course that those that benefit least from the status quo might just want to shake things up and see Scotland's wealth being used to give them a future and hope. Stuff that up yer pipe and smoke it Wilson.
 
 
# Soixante-neuf 2012-02-01 12:34
I think if the wealth really had been well managed and shared out equitably, we wouldn't be in this situation now. This is exactly what McCrone was warning about in his 1974 report. That unless Scotland could see tangibile benefits coming home from the oil wealth, the natives would get restless.

Instead we got vanity projects in the south-east of England, and unemployment payments for those thrown out of work in Thatcher's purge of Scottish industry. Our oil paid for our workmen to become dependent on benefits.

And in spite of all that wealth, the UK is massively indebted. Why on earth should we now vote to allow the same guys to gobble up the second half of our oil reserves?
 
 
# A_Scottish_Voice 2012-02-01 12:36
I have always believed for some time that the key to Scotland becoming Independent would rest with the people of Glasgow.

And I have also feel that when the money starts to dry up over the next few years, that the less well off of us might begin to see that the grass might really be greener over the fence.
 
 
# Stevie Cosmic 2012-02-01 13:05
I sincerely hope, with all my heart, that the good people of Glasgow will give Labour a severe tankin' in May. It's all they deserve for the social injustice they have inflicted on my city. It is not alone in Scotland as a place of abject poverty and hopelessness, but it is a perfect example of just how the current constitutional arrangement does not work.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-01 22:33
You got that right, think Raploch!
 
 
# Saltire Groppenslosh 2012-02-05 00:30
Amen to that.
 
 
# edinburghdave 2012-02-01 13:38
Quoting A_Scottish_Voic e:
I have always believed for some time that the key to Scotland becoming Independent would rest with the people of Glasgow.

And I have also feel that when the money starts to dry up over the next few years, that the less well off of us might begin to see that the grass might really be greener over the fence.


First ever post on 'labourhame' and modded off. I was merely pointing out that the Scottish Governmen, sine 2007 have done more in thier first three years as a minority government then the entire 50 where labour dominated in places like Glasgow. I included a link about apprenticeship places.

It appears they dont like constructive depate all that much over there.
 
 
# call me dave 2012-02-01 22:25
You mad impetuous fool (as Tony Hancock would say) @;) , did you expect a fair hearing.

You must be more cunning than that! Firstly a little toadying and an anodyne question, lulling them into a false believe that you are a seeker of truth from the labour perspective etc etc. . .I know . .I know! But its your only hope.
 
 
# scottish_skier 2012-02-01 14:00
Glasgow has strong majority support for independence. When you get regional poll breakdowns, this is always the case. I expect the large population of glasgow to be crucial in carrying they yes majority. Labour don't know their own voters.
 
 
# Marga B 2012-02-01 16:37
The con-dem social security review can only heighten this feeling in Glasgow, surely.
 
 
# cjmasta 2012-02-01 12:27
We need to start hammering home that we would all be £`s? better off than we are at the moment. Just keep repeating it to counter the constant we would be worse off argument.
 
 
# brickwall 2012-02-01 12:39
When I was a kid oil was to run out in the year 2000, then 2020 and so on. Anyway, Scotland cannot rely on oil to pave the streets and provide mega pensions for all. I fully support investment in energy to export it abroad and helping all these small engineering and electronics and medical firms export.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-01 12:41
We can't rely on oil in perpetuity, but we can use the revenue from oil (in part) to invest in other industries.
 
 
# X_Sticks 2012-02-01 12:53
Like Norway has done and westminster hasn't.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-01 22:39
Quoting Jiggsbro:
We can't rely on oil in perpetuity, but we can use the revenue from oil (in part) to invest in other industries.


We can also do a Norway with a small percentage invested in a fund for the future. If you understand how Compound Interest works you will know how money can grow, greatly,if left to generate compound interest.
 
 
# Saltire Groppenslosh 2012-02-05 00:32
Damn good seed capital from a business point of view.....
 
 
# farrochie 2012-02-01 13:01
As I recall the "Auk" platform was scheduled to be decommissioned in 1990, and it is still producing, with some nearby finds giving further potential life to this installation.
 
 
# Louperdowg 2012-02-01 14:15
I might be wrong, Farrochie, but I think that Auk might now be in English waters since the border was shifted.

I'll check later.
 
 
# alexmc8275 2012-02-01 14:23
Yes think I picked up that info somewhere Auk and Argyll if I remember correctly.
 
 
# Mei 2012-02-01 14:25
In stolen Scottish waters !
 
 
# alexmc8275 2012-02-01 14:32
What was the explanation they gave for doing this . Scumbags the lot of them, now I can only see one reason money , and the scots mps who went along with it should be publicly shamed for this. Now in robbie the pict style has anyone ever reported it stolen?
 
 
# Holebender 2012-02-01 15:07
You mean they might be in English fishing waters. The jurisdictional boundary for the oil industry has not changed since 1968. It is the line of latitude at 55° 50' North.
 
 
# Louperdowg 2012-02-01 15:31
I'm sure you'll have already read this Holebender but just in case...

craigmurray.org.uk/.../...
 
 
# Alx1 2012-02-01 14:35
brickwall,

Unfortunately for some of us, we heard that the oil was going to run out in 1980!
They've (mainly labour) have been lying that long about our oil.

Spoke to a Rangers man (not from Glasgow!) this morning at my work about Independence etc.
He said it would have been okay if we had done it 30 years ago, refering to our oil & gas reserves. I then pointed out that there is an estimated 50-100 years of oil left, to that he started rambling on about Shetlands wanting Independence, devo max etc.
I simply blew him out of the water with his weak arguments and he left with his tail between his legs.
Moral being that it pays to get the real information and facts from newsnet and newsnet members.
Keep up the good work to all.
 
 
# snowthistle 2012-02-01 14:42
You are lucky you managed a discussion a bloke of similar profile at my work says he'll vote 'no' because he 'likes being British'
 
 
# Louperdowg 2012-02-01 15:28
My 15 year old daughter told me yesterday that her friend told her that her parents wouldn't be voting for Independence.

When I asked why she said that one parent was English and the other Irish.

That's how some people 'think'.

There's still time...
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-01 22:43
Typical Orange Order Rangers type. Who the hell did you think The Loyal Orange Lodge is loyal to?
 
 
# Saltire Groppenslosh 2012-02-05 00:42
Dont worry, once all the real campaigning takes place, their love of the title British may pale a little to the point where it doesn't matter. Even someone you speak to who says they like being British is on a journey.

How much they like it in a year or so is another matter indeed.

Don't despair, just keep going. We'll bolster you up when you feel down.

Just keep in your head what an independent Scotland will be like and then it all seems worth it again.
 
 
# Soixante-neuf 2012-02-01 14:48
But we want to persuade them, not blow them out the water! We want joyful converts, who've realised that their pessimism was based on false premises, not bitter conquests who've been browbeaten.

People who have been soundly defeated in an argument usually cling ever more tenaciously to their original position. People who have been seduced into changing their mind are what we want to go for.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-01 14:53
As someone said elsewhere, we need to remove barriers to change, not increase the force for change. Removing the 'barriers' of the big lies about 'too poor, too wee, too stupid' needs to be a part of the process, though.
 
 
# snowthistle 2012-02-01 14:56
It's difficult to persuade someone who knows nothing about it and cares even less, he just likes being British. I have given up on him and am moving on to easier targets, the undecided.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-01 22:57
Quoting snowthistle:
"he just likes being British".
.

Err! Rangers Supporter! Orange Lodge, *LOYAL* Orange lodge. {{cough}}
 
 
# Alx1 2012-02-01 15:02
No Soixante-neuf this was not one for converting, he just fired off about 6 untrue points in a row without even giving me the chance to answer them one at a time.
He also mentioned the UK will be very rich soon with Falklands oil & gas! Must be a new tactic to dangle a financial carrot our way.
No sad loss to Scotland, I do believe he stays outwith his homeland now.

Oh and the reference of blowing out of the water was because he had an English work mate with him who was totally out of his depth on these matters. Like he (English guy. Sorry I'm a contractor offshore and I don't really know these people) said well we (english) will keep all the gas revenues!
I pointed out that Scotland at this moment produces 58% of the UK total of gas production, with more percentage coming onstream shortly with more gas platforms being built for the north sea.
Didn't please him much.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-01 22:54
Aye! Soixante-neuf,
Ye get a similar response from those you lend money to. I had a workmate who used to bum a half-crown from me evey Thursday. Come Friday he paid it back. Went like that for years. Eventually, the manager forced me into a more tech job but much less money. The guy, now better paid than me, still came across the yard to get, "HIS", half-dollar on Thursdays. Then one day I thought to end the stupidity. Come Thursday I said, "Sorry but I've no change, (everyone in the lab was warned to not have change), and I gave him a quid, (big bucks in those days). The guys in the lab though I was mad. That was the end of the Thursday borrowing and if he saw me in the distance he went another way. It was worth the quid to get shot of him. He still crosses the street if he sees me coming.
 
 
# Legerwood 2012-02-01 13:07
O/T but Peter Hain is reported in today's Herald as saying that Spain could veto Scotland's EU membership.

A bit behind the times is Mr Hain which is fitting for one of yesterday's men.
 
 
# Ken500 2012-02-01 13:55
Quoting Legerwood:
O/T but Peter Hain is reported in today's Herald as saying that Spain could veto Scotland's EU membership.

A bit behind the times is Mr Hain which is fitting for one of yesterday's men.



The Spanish foreign minister has said that is completely untrue. The Referendum is an internal matter for the UK.

The rumour has been attributed to a Unioist journalist with links to the Foreign Office. Unionist. Lies.
 
 
# farrochie 2012-02-02 10:15
I hope someone corrected the Spanish FM when he said "The Referendum is an internal matter for the UK."

I'll go with: "The referendum is an internal matter for Scotland, with appropriate international oversight"
 
 
# Triangular Ears 2012-02-01 13:56
Here's how to counter that argument.

Spain could veto the remaining UK's EU membership due to the unresolved dispute over Gibraltar.

It's very easy to spout hypotheticals, isn't it?

But let's ask ourselves who Spain has the biggest beef with. Is it Edinburgh, for having the audacity to want independence for Scotland? Or is it London, for what it sees as an occupation of part of its territory?
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-01 14:00
Another way to counter it would be too point out that the Spanish have already said they wouldn't veto Scottish membership and that Peter Hain is talking out of his arse.
 
 
# Triangular Ears 2012-02-01 14:11
We could also point out that, by being "better and stronger together", we have already, twice, been on the receiving end of a veto on EU membership, courtesy of France.

Had we been independent then, it is highly unlikely that France would have vetoed Scotland's membership.

It's clear that London has the most 'enemies' in Europe.
 
 
# Roll_On_2011 2012-02-01 14:43
Triangular Ears

Here's how to counter that argument.


I think the following is better… considering the circumstances,

Teflon Tony….. well what can you say…..

dailymail.co.uk/.../...

Tony Blair agreed to a secret deal to hand joint sovereignty of Gibraltar to Spain, according to explosive claims by a former Labour cabinet minister.

Peter Hain reveals in his memoirs that he struck the deal with the Spanish government in 2002 to end the UK's 300-year control of the vital strategic outpost.


…. am I surprised….. naw nothing that surfaces about that pile of manure would surprise me!
 
 
# Alx1 2012-02-01 14:40
A better way to counter it, is to say we have'nt had a referendum on entering the EU yet, so we are not decided-note to Scottish governemnt.
After all they (little Englanders) want a vote on the EU and they can't get one.
 
 
# Marga B 2012-02-01 19:14
Just a friendly warning, don't try logical arguments on the Spanish government, it won't work. If it looks like Madrid will lose power or lose face, that comes first.
 
 
# tartanpigsy 2012-02-01 23:20
sounds familiar, old colonial ways and all that
 
 
# cirsium 2012-02-01 14:11
Legerwood - is he really behind the times or does he believe in the doctrine of the Big Lie?
 
 
# Ken500 2012-02-01 14:10
Quoting Old Smokey:
Hi Ken500
can you clarify this years figures as to how you get the difference of £ 10 billion - Im probably being a bit thick, so for me its big crayons and sketchpad ;)


If the block grant is cut by £1.3Billion

Block Grant £25.5Billion + £16Billion? pensions (might rise) = £42Billion approx

Tax revenues raised in Scotland last year (might fall) £48 - £9Billion (oil tax revenues raised last year)= £39Billion

£39Billion + (this year) Oil tax revenues £12Billion = £51Billion

£51Billion - £42Billion = £9Billion

They add on a 9% of Westminster borrowing which Scotland never sees. £189Billion and accrue approx £18Billion as Scottish debt.

(Illegal wars and Trident.

Total tax take (which might fall
 
 
# Alx1 2012-02-01 15:10
Beware on UK financial matters Ken500, you haven't accounted for social security spend in Scotland from the UK Government.
We don't know what the true spend is do we?
I just ask them (unionists) to give accurate figures (not UK Government figures) from an indeopendent body on how much Scotland contributes to the UK.
Why doesn't the UK Government not open up the books up to outside scrutiny?
I think we all know the answer to that one.
We can't have a honest and true debate on finances if the figures are false from the start.
 
 
# Old Smokey 2012-02-01 16:14
Thanks Ken500, appreciated
 
 
# Ken500 2012-02-01 14:13
Scotland would balance the budget, by growing the economy, be more prosperous, without Oil revenues.

Living within it's means.
 
 
# snowthistle 2012-02-01 14:33
O/T apologies if this has been posted before, it's an article about the BBC head appearing before a Holyrood Committee

thedrum.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-01 14:53
Quoting snowthistle:
O/T apologies if this has been posted before, it's an article about the BBC head appearing before a Holyrood Committee

thedrum.co.uk/.../...


tha meeting can be watched here....

news.bbc.co.uk/.../9684375.stm
 
 
# snowthistle 2012-02-01 14:58
thanks : )
 
 
# Robert Louis 2012-02-01 15:59
The evasive explanation given by the BBC in that session as to why the Scottish political blogs are NOT open for comment, was absurd.

They tried to assert it was merely an editorial choice. That is, quite frankly, hogwash of the very most insincere kind.

I found the chap from the BBC to be most evasive in his manner of answers.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-02-02 01:53
Having watched the whole 1hr 43min 30s, it can be said that the BBC man was looking decidedly uncomfortable when explaining BBC Scotland's 'position', on Brian's Blog and Douglas Fraser's blog. They should continue to pressurise the BBC on this. It may result in an apoplexy if nothing else (the NUJ man was very concerned about stress in his members).

If anyone wants to see only that particular part of the discussion it is near the end of the meeting (from about 1h 35 mins I would guess).

If STV want to make a name for themselves they should take on Derek Bateman for their 10:30pm politcal/news programme.
 
 
# bringiton 2012-02-01 15:01
Slightly related but both the Spectator and our beloved BBC are reporting that Shetland is nearerto Bergen than Edinburgh.
Shetland is also nearer to Bergen than Paris but so what.
Shetland is considerably nearer to the Scottish mainland than it is to Norway but the point they are trying to make is the same as Lord Ha Ha from Caithness that England should have the right to keep some of Scotland's oil/gas if we decide to go it alone.
They would do so by inviting the good people of the Northern Isles to ask to be governed from London following an independent Scotland vote in the affirmative.
They must think that the people in the Northern Isles are really stupid.Who in their right mind would invite Westminster to look after any of their affairs ?
 
 
# DJ 2012-02-01 16:18
Am I being overly sensitive or does Up Helly Aa the Shetland "Nordic Festival" always get this level of coverage from BBC and Telegraph?
 
 
# Massacre1965 2012-02-01 21:52
Its just you - it gets the same boring coverage of the same boring story every year - a bit like any old firm game.
 
 
# call me dave 2012-02-01 22:34
Thanks Massacre I must be getting paranoid too!
 
 
# Alx1 2012-02-01 21:56
DJ,

Not only that! I'm getting the feeling that the BBC are showing more war stories lately.
I expect they will do their upmost to maintain the union with more TV programmes showing our Britishness.
 
 
# Saltire Groppenslosh 2012-02-01 23:06
Correct! You are not being over sensitive. They think they've spotted a crack in our armour. It is sickening that the folk of Shetland get ignored and the Islands are only mentioned when there's a related article about oil or gas. The westminster establishment will try to drive a wedge between the Shetlands and Holyrood.

Let's see if we can deal with this with a wee bit of lateral thinking; first, who on Newsnet Scotland understands a bit about maritime borders? Second, what claim would Shetland place on the oli and gas fields. Third, can we get any friends up there to comment on their thoughts regarding getting used by westminster as a stick to hit Holyrood with. Any answers to this, please mark as SHETLAND in capitals. We could do with nailing this one peeps. I'll post this again at the bottom of the thread.
 
 
# Alx1 2012-02-01 21:54
bringiton,
Don't worry or fall for the Shetland scare story.
I had an overnight stay (one of many this year) in Lerwick on Friday night and trust me there is no doubt that the vast majority, according to some of the locals, feel 100% scottish.
The so called Independence party/story from years ago was started by our southern cousins who stayed in the Shetlands in greater numbers 20 years past.
They have mostly gone now as Sulum Voe has finished construction and the mostly English management and upper supervision (who made up a good few numbers) have also retired or simply moved back south.
 
 
# bringiton 2012-02-01 23:47
Yes,Alx1 spent some time in Shetland myself so have an understanding of where people there are coming from.
 
 
# scottish_skier 2012-02-01 22:04
Big cities-wise, Aberdeen is closer to Shetland than Bergen is. Capitals-wise Edinburgh is closer to Sheltand than Oslo is.

Aberdeen is closer to Bergen and Stavanger than it is to London.

Edinburgh is closer to Dublin, Belfast and Cardiff than it is to London.

Seems London is the 'furthest away' capital of our 4 nearest neigbours... if we want to get pedantic ;-)
 
 
# John Souter 2012-02-01 15:10
"Who are the real subsidy junkies?

Any lingering doubt that Scotland more than pays its way, or survives on subsidies, was dispelled by a new report published in October 2007. Whilst the Daily Mail, which by no stretch of the imagination could be described as a supporter of Scottish nationalism, devoted a whole page to the analysis of the report which was based on tax paid per capita as against spending, Northern Ireland received £4,212 more than it paid in tax, North East England £3,133, Wales £2,990, N.W. England £1732, South West England £978, West Midlands £931, East Midlands £185 and lastly Scotland £38. Only the South East corner produced a small surplus due to tax paid on the high wages within the city of London at this time (pre-Credit Crunch)."

Assuming the Mail has ever got anything correct these figures are a damning indictment of Thatcher's neo liberal fantasies and their effect in impoverishing a nation for the get-rich -quick financial ponzi scheme.

Westminster is damned by its own incompetence in all aspects of governance other than its perfidious ability to cover up its flaws.

For 2010 it has been calculated it lost £68bn due to tax evasion - that's two thirds of the total cost of the NHS and equal to the total cost of Welfare, an issue which it's assiduously trying to cut (by all parties) in order to save arguably £5-6 bn over four years. Of course what isn't factored into the statistics is the effect of de-industrialisati on on the welfare bill, coupled with the fact of a major proportion of the avoidance deficit is directly related to the mandarins of the finance industry.

All of which begs the question - can any region outside London afford Westminster?
 
 
# chicmac 2012-02-01 15:51
If I might just mention again, the massive inbuilt food and drinks deficit which England has and which we currently have to share. The UK net imports over £20 billion in food and drink. This is a huge burden on the balance of trade every year. Before you can even start earning money which can be spent on the country itself you have to export an equivalent amount of other things.

It is approx half the total UK food requirement.

If Scotland were independent we would not have that situation at all.

Even if you just look at agricultural produce alone, where England has a distinct advantage in the amount of agricultural land and the quality to an extent (although where the same amount of intensity is used as in cereal crops, the yields are virtually identical) Scotland still produces 50% more per head of population than England.
Add in the massive surpluses in fishing and aquaculture and Scotland easily produces more
food than it needs.
And then there is £4 billion + of drinks exports (mostly whisky). Note that is not exports to the rUK or nominal tax value, that is value of exports outside the UK.

And there is another big earner from the land in Scotland the form of forestry, while not an edible crop, the money can be exchanged for food if needst be.i.e. the land used for forestry can be viewed in terms of food equivalent value.

Without Scotland. The UK's net groceries bill will be significantly higher whereas for Scotland it will be a net earner of revenue and not an inbuilt deficit.

It means that every other thing we export contributes to the Scottish economy and ultimately our national disposable income, rather than having to pay for an inbuilt deficit before we even start,

The UK leadership used to understand that, because of the need to net import food, the country was required to have a trade surplus in other goods to pay for this, this isn't Mercantilism, it is just common sense.

Somewhere along the line they fell for the 'Find the Lady' sleight of hand of the Globalist/Monetarist some of whom I am sure primarily saw their policy as an opportunity to press the reset button on 200 years of social advancement in the West.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-01 16:02
"Add in the massive surpluses in fishing and aquaculture and Scotland easily produces more food than it needs."

The problem is likely to be producing the food Scotland wants, rather than what it needs. If we produce low value food and people want to buy higher value imported food, we still have a (monetary) food deficit.
 
 
# chicmac 2012-02-01 16:13
I am not suggesting that we forego trade and live off only what we produce.

'Value added' jiggery-pokery can be used to spin results on a domestic basis in terms of comparing apples with pears re production value v retail value. However for exports and imports a pound is a pound.

True, Scotland could certainly do better in terms of adding value to its exports, and an independent Scotland would almost certainly do better than the current situation where much of the value added to Scottish produce goes on in England. But any such improvement would only add to the current surplus Scotland already would enjoy if we were independent tomorrow.

Edit to add. If you exclude the rUK trade with Scotland altogether and just look at Scotland's trade with the rest of the World, on food we break even, add in whisky, vodka etc and we are in surplus. (every person of drinking age in Scotland would need to drink more than 10 bottles of wine a week to balance whisky exports).
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-01 16:37
"I am not suggesting that we forego trade and live off only what we produce."

I didn't think you were. But we cannot assume that having sufficient quantity of food required is the same as having sufficient value of food wanted. For exports and imports, a pound is indeed a pound. But if Scotland produces a pounds worth of food that no one in Scotland wants, and imports two pounds worth of food that people do want, that's a food deficit. Without figures on the values of food produced, how much is exported and at what price, how much is imported and at what cost, etc, we do not know that Scotland has a 'current surplus' in monetary terms. We don't even know for certain that the existing surplus (or deficit) is greater or smaller than the proportional share of the UK deficit.
 
 
# chicmac 2012-02-01 16:56
No, you are over complicating things.
It is very simple if we stick to the macroeconomics, if the total amount of money we get for the food we produce but don't want is equal or greater to the total amount of money we need to import the food we want but which we do not produce then we are in food surplus.

Price fluctuations of individual items or cost per nutritional volume etc. is neither here nor there.

Oh and when for instance I said '50% more per head' above I was talking in terms of pounds value of food for human consumption. (Scotland about £350 per head, UK about £225 per head for agricultural produce.)
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-02 00:12
Quoting Jiggsbro:
"The problem is likely to be producing the food Scotland wants, rather than what it needs. .


Well no, Scotland is a net exporter of food, fuel and energy.
England is a net importer of all three.
Now net simple means Scotland's imports of all three are less than her exports. So those figures mean we are net gainers in all three - that's we make a profit on all three. All that without any service industry and Scotland has great financial services, (even if we count RBS & HBOS),and we are also improving our manufacturing all the time. Furthermore we have a great tourist industry, All in all we will manage very well as we are but, as independent, can manage better and increase all our exports plus make more of what we import.
 
 
# The_Duke 2012-02-01 16:31
Very, very good piece here, by Auld Acquaitance.

Any of this sound familiar?

.../the-black-arts
 
 
# Marga B 2012-02-01 16:40
Reform Scotland/Scotsman conference

A Question of Independence – How will the referendum work?
8th March, 08:30am, The Scotsman Head Office, Edinburgh EH8 8AS

100 pounds a head.

Speakers confirmed so far: Moore and Swinney.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-01 16:51
£100 a head? I'll do it for £50:

"We ask the people of Scotland if they want to manage their own affairs. They tick a box, either 'Yes' or 'No'. We count them, celebrate and send an email to Cameron saying "Get it up ye".
 
 
# millie 2012-02-01 17:00
O/T

main headline on bbc Scotland website , am astounded…


bbc.co.uk/.../...

BBC Scotland appears to be continuing to weave a few wee webs- to try to undermine Salmond.

The BBC in Scotland is an utter disgrace (Don’t see Brown, Mcconnell , etc mentioned)!!
 
 
# Gaavster 2012-02-01 17:25
The time is fast approaching that something has to be done about them and they need to be brought to book

They are a complete disgrace to democracy and an embarrassment to impartiality...

With the eyes of the world starting to focus on us, it may be the ideal opportunity for us to start some form of peaceful protest/demonstration outside of Union Quay in Glasgow and invite the world's media to make their own assessment of the BBC...

It could be extremely damaging for them commercially on a worldwide basis, if they are shown up for what they are....
 
 
# millie 2012-02-01 18:01
Internationally , the name John Pilger springs to mind.

I feel ‘really’ concerned about the deviousness in reporting on BBC Scotland.

The Independence argument can’t be defeated on ‘facts’,- but it is obvious that they seem to be trying every manipulative, subliminal trick in the book.
 
 
# D_A_N 2012-02-01 18:10
it's an utter disgrace. I'm all up for causing some peaceful chaos. How would one go about taking these frauds to court?
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-02 00:51
Quoting D_A_N:
it's an utter disgrace. I'm all up for causing some peaceful chaos. How would one go about taking these frauds to court?



Probable best to try the European Court of Human rights. They prevent free speech don't they?
 
 
# Stevie Cosmic 2012-02-01 18:57
www.newssniffer.co.uk/.../1

I just noticed the Lamont comment, it wasn't there today. It was added 15 minutes ago according to News Sniffer.

It's an obvious BBC hatchet job on Salmond, otherwise, why the Lamont drivel?

And if I remember correctly, from the letter that was printed by the BBC (I'm sure), the FM DID NOT support light touch banking regulation, but merely was wishing Goodwin luck on the ABN Amro takeover, which...back then... looked like a good deal for RBS.
 
 
# 357ms 2012-02-01 21:57
Quoting Stevie Cosmic:
the FM DID NOT support light touch banking regulation,


Oh dear me.

guardian.co.uk/.../...

"We are pledging a light-touch regulation suitable to a Scottish financial sector with its outstanding reputation for probity, as opposed to one like that in the UK, which absorbs huge amounts of management time in 'gold-plated' regulation."

Not just "supporting", but "pledging".

And this from an ex-RBS employee.

Curious.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-02 00:56
Fact is Stevie, when folk notice the BBC bias then the BBC, and hence the dependents, have failed. What is more, the more they try the easier it is ti spot it. Why do you think the SNP are gaining ground? Why is party membership growing so fast? The dependents have over egged their propaganda.
 
 
# bigbuachaille 2012-02-01 19:00
Craig Murray, internationally recognized as a campaigning journalist, is an SNP member. He recently had a blog on Anti-Scottish Propaganda. click here craigmurray.org.uk/.../...
He would, in my view, do an excellent job of exposing BBC Scotland. I have contacted him in this respect, but he is a busy man and can't be expected to read my message just because I sent it. Please contact him yourselves. The more people we contact, the better the chance of success.
 
 
# DJ 2012-02-01 23:30
My direct debit has just been cancelled on the back of that article. Final straw.
 
 
# Arraniki 2012-02-01 17:17
Pace Jiggsbro 2012-02-01 15:51
£100 a head? I'll do it for £50:

"We ask the people of Scotland if they want to manage their own affairs. They tick a box, either 'Yes' or 'No'. We count them, celebrate and send an email to Cameron saying "Get it up ye".


I think I could second that sentiment.
 
 
# Arraniki 2012-02-01 17:22
O/T
That wee sneaky poll on RET is still running in the Arran Banner.

If you have not yet voted take a look. The positive case for the Scottish Government is to increase the NO votes.

www.arranbanner.co.uk/
 
 
# bigbuachaille 2012-02-01 17:33
Re the BBC Headline : "Alex Salmond regrets past support for banker Fred Goodwin", get on to Douglas Fraser's article and complain.Click here: bbc.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-01 17:40
This is a repost but still pertains...

No one was saying bad things about Mr. Goodwin back then....

scotsman.com/.../...

Queen opens £350m bank HQ

They were introduced to dignitaries including Scottish Secretary Alistair Darling, Edinburgh's Lord Provost Lesley Hinds, and Lothian and Borders Chief Constable Paddy Tomkins.

Mr McConnell hailed the new headquarters - which will house 3250 staff - as a symbol of Scotland's ambitions.

He said: "Building world-class Scottish companies that are competitive across global markets is a central part of our strategy for developing a modern and prosperous Scottish economy.

"The Royal Bank of Scotland is a perfect realisation of that ambition.

"Their commitment to a headquarters in Scotland confirms that we are creating the right business environment to attract and retain the headquarters of globally successful companies.

"The state-of-the-art offices here in Gogarburn are a fitting home for RBS and a real tribute to the quality and skills of their Scottish workforce."
 
 
# RTP 2012-02-01 17:46
"Criticism over Goodwin 'hysteria'"

I posted this on the above story

Posting:

Why no comments allowed on this story.

The UK energy minister has described the independence referendum as "a point of
uncertainty that could cause concern" to oil and gas firms.

Charles Hendry's comments came as he launched the latest round of licensing for offshore exploration.

My reply from BBC.


Thank you for contributing to the BBC web site. Unfortunately we've had to
remove the content below because it contravened one of our House Rules.

Your comment was considered to have broken the following House Rule:

"We reserve the right to fail comments which...

Are considered to be off-topic for the discussion."
 
 
# Seagetagrip 2012-02-01 17:47
At the time Alec Salmond made his encouraging noises re the Ambro takeover he was immediately told by Brown and Blair that, had RBS not been a BRITISH bank it could not possibly have countenanced such moves. It was BRITISH then but SCOTTISH when it failed.
 
 
# Legerwood 2012-02-01 20:04
When you read the text of the much-hyped AS letter to Mr Goodwin it is actually quite innocuous.

AS said that RBS success was important to Scotland. True then and true now - it is a big employer then and still is now throughout the UK. So was he supposed to wish him failure given the bank was a big employer?

Then he went on to wish him well with the Ambro deal - was he supposed to wish him failure - although failure might have made things marginally better for the bank. But that is 20/20 hindsight.

Many business commentators did urge the Bank not to proceed with the takeover but were ignored but just as many did not.

The only reason the letter is being hyped is because Mr Salmon wrote it so it ios being puffed up out of all reason. Any reasonable reading of the letter would not excite any comment if the author was unknown,
 
 
# bringiton 2012-02-01 17:55
The question the media should be asking is:
Would an independent England be financially sound?
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-02 01:02
Quoting bringiton:
The question the media should be asking is:
Would an independent England be financially sound?


Och! No!

Everyone, including David Cameron, already knows the answer. So why ask?
 
 
# sneckedagain 2012-02-01 18:07
I rather wonder if all this campaign to vilify Fred Goodwin was in fact to prepare the way for an attack on Alex Salmond.
 
 
# cirsium 2012-02-01 23:17
Alternatively, it could be to draw attention away from the fact that no action (criminal charges) has been taken following the publication of the FSA report on the RBS failure (see www.ianfraser.org/.../). To quote Yves Smith, it looks like this is a case of “theater for the masses, free passes for the people at the top.”
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-02 01:06
Smokescreen to stop pointing fingers at the real guilty ones. Did not succeeding governments, including the Blair/Brown/Darling one. Make the relaxed rules and the financial service just took advantage. The relaxed regulatio is the cause. Fred the Shred could not have done it without them.
 
 
# bigbuachaille 2012-02-01 18:12
The story do far: the good guys are talking up the independence strategies, unearthing the truths which the Union has kept secret for decades and looking forward to Scotland's determining her own future and her own priorites...... BUT MEANWHILE the bad guys are ...... click here conservativehome.blogs.com/.../...
Can you imagine a positive case for the Union ever being made?
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-02 01:08
bigbuachaille,
I've been waiting for that positive case for around sixty years now.
 
 
# Edulis 2012-02-01 18:25
We surely must begin soon to up the ante on the lies and deception over the McCrone Report. The issue is not, as Brian Wilson thinks, the selfishness of keeping the oil to ourselves. It is the fact that all the Unionist parties colluded in keeping the extent and value of North Sea oil secret so that the independence movement would not be mobilised. We need to get this out to the great Scottish public. We need to let those deprived areas in our cities, where there is most potential to espouse the case for a better future in a richer country, be made aware through billboards, community newsletters or whatever of the fact that they have been shafted for nearly 40 years, lost £300 Billion worth of revenue and been subjected to the too wee, too poor, too stupid litany. Time for action you whizz kids in SNP central!
 
 
# bigbuachaille 2012-02-01 18:47
I agree that this should be emphasised at every opportunity. There are various ways for us to keep spreading the message beyond independence supporters. Try Douglas Fraser's blog when it's open. Labour Hame is always a possibility as there are undoubtedly Labour supporters who favour Independence, but you still have to get your post past Duncan. There are opportunities to post on the Scottish newspapers, no matter how deep in the gutter they may be. If we keep plugging away and the Party does its organisational bit, then we will reach a critical mass when sufficient numbers of the population are aware of the facts instead on the historical Union spin. Keep referring to all the pro-Independence bloggers: Better Nation, Wingsoverscotla nd, Burdzeyeview, Subrosa, BellaCaledonia etc. The sum of all our individual efforts will be what we achieve in 2014.
 
 
# jasp303 2012-02-01 19:29
Head over to answers.yahoo.com on a regular basis. People asking questions.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-02-01 21:14
Fly posting.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-02 01:16
bigbuachaille,
Do you know anyone who is a really good predicter of horse or hound races?
A blog that could show a good percentage of winners could make a great deal of difference. The trick is to slip the winners into a bit of loaded prose. Perhaps even in cryptic mode. The would be punter has to read the text to find the clues to the winners. Subliminal psycology at its best.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-02 01:11
Edulis, The branches are letterbox stuffing, all very hard working one of them. hey could do with some help, just contact your local branch.
 
 
# ace182 2012-02-01 18:51
Independence light is now off the agenda according to Cameron so the folks that were looking at this now have only one way to go namely independence. If each person here ran off and delivered as macdoc suggests, a thousand copies maybe just maybe some of these undecided will be inclined to vote yes for independence. Over two hundred replies to this article. Mmm that is over two hundred thousand copies distributed.Doit.
 
 
# Fortitudine 2012-02-01 19:44
I ran off only a couple of copies of this article, passed it around work today and already have converted 3 or 4 undecideds to the 'yes' camp :D
These will soon increase. A long way to go yet , but at least we're definitely on the right track, striding along while the unionists are floundering!
 
 
# Corm 2012-02-01 20:45
Quoting ace182:
Independence light is now off the agenda according to Cameron so the folks that were looking at this now have only one way to go namely independence.


Dont count on it. Expect a magnanamous back down in the near future should the Yes vote appear to gain strength from his statement. I think he is just attempting to call "Scotlands" bluff based on what his advisors tell him is the political situation in Scotland. I.e. most Scots dont support Independance cause BBC Scotland says so.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-02 01:20
Quoting ace182:
thousand copies maybe just maybe some of these undecided will be inclined to vote yes for independence..

[quote name="ace182"]
Why not just contact your nearest branch and help stuff offician SNP leaflets through letterboxes?
 
 
# Arraniki 2012-02-01 19:05
Pace Edulis 2012-02-01 17:25
We surely must begin soon to up the ante on the lies and deception over the McCrone Report. The issue is not, as Brian Wilson thinks, the selfishness of keeping the oil to ourselves. It is the fact that all the Unionist parties colluded in keeping the extent and value of North Sea oil secret so that the independence movement would not be mobilised. We need to get this out to the great Scottish public. We need to let those deprived areas in our cities, where there is most potential to espouse the case for a better future in a richer country, be made aware through billboards, community newsletters or whatever of the fact that they have been shafted for nearly 40 years, lost £300 Billion worth of revenue and been subjected to the too wee, too poor, too stupid litany. Time for action you whizz kids in SNP central!

Absolutely spot on. This is worthy of a sustained "poster war" as well as every other
appropriate method to get this message out.
Meanwhile the economic rape and pillage of Scotland's assets continues.

Btw. Heard some sabre rattling over the Falklands on radio today. Deja vu for Thatcher's children. Is Cameron that daft?
 
 
# gopher3 2012-02-01 19:15
Yes Cameron is that daft.
 
 
# Alba4Eva 2012-02-01 19:41
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16810417
"A MoD spokesman said he would not say when the ship was due to set sail. He added that the deployment had nothing to do with increased tensions between the UK and Argentina about who owns the Falklands Islands."

OR...

dailymail.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# Stevie Cosmic 2012-02-01 19:51
'Daft'?

I'm sure ramping up tensions for a military conflict to coincide with the referendum might just do Scotland's future untold damage. It might even have the potential to postpone it. There's nothing quite like a war to keep peoples' eyes off the ball, and I believe Cameron, like Thatcher, is devious and evil enough to try it.
 
 
# gfaetheblock 2012-02-01 20:10
Are you supportive of self determination for the Falkland islanders?

They definitely seem keen to remain with the UK.
 
 
# Ken500 2012-02-01 20:06
Much of Scotland's beef, fish, and lamb (+ products) are exported to the rest of the UK and Europe. The best prices are paid in Europe big earners for Scotland. That is why food and drink revenues from exports are so high. Fish lorries leave every night going to Europe. Whisky exports.

Salmon & Whisky now going to China. Big earners.
 
 
# Old Smokey 2012-02-01 20:43
I think I saw somewhere that Whisky accounts for 75% of all of the UK's Food & Drink exports. So with that chunk going out the balance of trade equation for england will leave a bit of a gap
 
 
# Ken500 2012-02-01 20:12
The BBC is a disgrace and everyone realises that.

Don't stress about it. Just don't watch it.

A BBC rep was on a programme discussing Independence and said 'on Independence no one could watch it'. (Thank goodness)

You can watch the BBC in Spain and abroad with a freeview box (or Internet) and not pay the licence.
 
 
# InfrequentAllele 2012-02-02 16:06
You can't watch the BBC outside of the UK with a freeview box because the signal for freeview comes from local transmitters. The BBC blocks non-UK IP addresses, so it's not possible to watch the BBC i-player outside the UK unless you use a proxy IP.

But you CAN watch all UK free to air TV, including the BBC, outside the UK using Freesat with a satellite dish. Because Spain is far away from the UK, it's on the edge of the satellite footprint, so you need a bigger dish. However in Scotland the signal is strong and only a small dish would be required. In Ireland and the Netherlands people can receive UK free to air TV with a 60cm dish. In Spain you need a dish at least 1.4 m.

The UK authorities cannot block the reception of satellite signals outside UK territory, and the ability to watch "satellite overspill" is protected by EU legislation. And no licence fee is required to watch British telly outside the UK.
 
 
# cjmasta 2012-02-01 20:13
I really think The SNP should put this myth to bed now at the start so that people can be won over by all the other arguments made hence forth. Whether we like it or not the economic case is a biggie in peoples concerns. We should be claiming that famalies will all be better off, just as the council tax freeze has directly made folk hundreds of pounds better off.
 
 
# EdinScot 2012-02-01 20:28
What is contained in this humdinger of an article could turn into one of the defining moments of the whole independence campaign. Dont get mad, get even. Lets all get this news out there and turn this referendum campaign into the Unionists worst nightmare like they have done to so many of us past and present in this so called equal Union.
 
 
# mealer 2012-02-01 20:36
Could someone give me a single sentence precis of this article for ease of use please.
 
 
# Harry.Shanks 2012-02-01 20:53
We Wuz Robbed.
 
 
# bringiton 2012-02-01 20:54
How about:
Westminster sucking wealthy Scottish economy dry.
?
 
 
# J Wil 2012-02-01 21:12
Another Whitehall scandal emerging.

Civil Servants avoid tax - approved by Danny Alexander.

davidhencke.wordpress.com/.../...
 
 
# Ken500 2012-02-01 21:54
Quoting J Wil:
Another Whitehall scandal emerging.

Civil Servants avoid tax - approved by Danny Alexander.

davidhencke.wordpress.com/.../...



Goes on all the time.

Scottish Oil sector is taxed at 61% at 61%, and goes straight to the UK treasury, Scotland doesn't get any if it. Multinationals earning £Billions in the City of London, tax avoid and pay no tax at all. Banking and phone companies etc negotiated tax avoidance of £25Billion with HMRC, and that is just the tip of the ice berg.

Danny Alexander was the one who increased tax on Oil revenues by 11% taking another £2Billion out of Scotland.
 
 
# xyz 2012-02-02 01:07
Sickening .. heads should roll.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-02 16:09
In other news, David Miliband has said 'Labour will not regain power until it "fully understands" why it lost support and "clarifies the kind of future" it wants to see'.

bbc.co.uk/.../...

The future we want to see, David, is one where you don't use the same tax-avoidance scheme that the Student Loans boss has just been pulled up on. You know, the one your government vowed to close.

dailymail.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# Roll_On_2011 2012-02-01 22:10
OT

Article by Carwyn Jones in the Guardian.

Britain after the break-up:

guardian.co.uk/.../...

There is a stark choice before us: on the one hand we have a new vision for Britain, on the other nothing less than the break-up of the United Kingdom. We cannot allow this important debate to be dominated by the SNP. Likewise, it cannot be addressed by a "Little England" mentality which seeks to build walls around the Tory heartland. That is why I've called for a convention to debate a new constitutional settlement for Britain. This is not just overdue, but is now a political and constitutional imperative.
 
 
# bringiton 2012-02-01 22:21
What is this new vision for Britain?
One where the appearance of democracy is just that,or another where the nations of these isles have true autonomy and come together when it is in mutual interest to do so.
That is the future.
 
 
# Saltire Groppenslosh 2012-02-01 23:11
O/T With regard to the Shetland Island independence thing or retaining it as part of the UK, westminster and Lord whatisname think they've spotted a crack in our armour. It is sickening that the folk of Shetland get ignored and the Islands are only mentioned when there's a related article about oil or gas. The TV today had the Up Helly Aa the Shetland Nordic Festival run wall to wall. The westminster establishment will try to drive a wedge between the Shetlands and Holyrood.

Let's see if we can deal with this with a wee bit of lateral thinking; first, who on Newsnet Scotland understands a bit about maritime borders? Second, what claim would Shetland place on the oil and gas fields. Third, can we get any friends up there to comment on their thoughts regarding getting used by westminster as a stick to hit Holyrood with. Any answers to this, please mark as SHETLAND in capitals. We could do with nailing this one peeps.
 
 
# xyz 2012-02-01 23:48
Regarding Maritime borders are you aware of the UN Law of the sea?: en.wikipedia.org/.../...

The section on Exclusive economic zones is of particular relevence.

"Exclusive economic zones (EEZs)
These extend from the edge of the territorial sea out to 200 nautical miles from the baseline. ..... Within this area, the coastal nation has sole exploitation rights over all natural resources.

If you click on the link 'Exclusive economic zones' and then click on 'United Kingdom'

You find this: en.wikipedia.org/.../...

Where you find a small map indicating the EEZ for the UK.
 
 
# Robert Louis 2012-02-02 16:41
Regarding SHETLAND.

A very detailed look at the legal maritime boundaries for Scotland and Islands such as Shetland is located at the European Journal of international law here;
www.ejil.org/pdfs/12/1/505.pdf

It cites similar examples of such border decision throughout history, including Malta, Jersey and Guernsey.

Page 100 onwards discusses Shetland/Orkney. Maybe somebody with a greater mind than myself can decipher what it actually means.

My basic understanding is that were Scotland to be independent, and Shetland decided to become part of England, its maritime boundaries would NOT extend in the same way as is the case with the Scottish maritime boundary. That is, for the Islands, their boundaries at sea if part of England rather than Scotland would be much smaller. QED they would not have most of the oil/gas fields within their boundaries anyway.

England joining to Shetland/Orkney would be a pointless move, both for England and for Shetland/Orkney.

(p.s. my apologies for lumping both Shetland and Orkney together - just for brevity)

No doubt England hasn't even given this any thought.
 
 
# Triangular Ears 2012-02-02 17:44
Having just looked at it, I agree. The basic idea is that if islands are near/adjacent to the state they are part of, then the islands can in effect become an extension of the mainland, allowing the EEZ to extend in the same way as from the mainland.

If, however, the islands are not geographically near the state they belong to, and are instead near another state, then this principle doesn't apply, because it would be encroaching on that other state's EEZ.

This is like the Channel Islands. These cannot be seen as an extension of mainland UK because they are literally right next to France, and to regard them in that way would take most of France's EEZ away.

Incidentally, if London are wanting to play funny buggers with Orkney and Shetland, then how are they planning on dividing up Gibraltar and the Falklands etc, etc, with Scotland? These are British possessions, not English.
 
 
# Triangular Ears 2012-02-02 17:52
Incidentally, even though that's a very interesting article, it still reeks of arrogance in that it's implying that there's some sort of unresolved status of Orkney and Shetland.

There isn't.

They were Scottish before union, and are Scottish now. Gibraltar, while captured before union, was ceded to GREAT BRITAIN, after union. The Falklands became British AFTER union. These were not English islands.

The hypocracy is amazing. London fights tooth and nail to prevent Scotland even being consulted on independence, yet London would apparently give Orkney and Shetland the choice to leave Scotland and join London.

I don't think so.

Orkney and Shetland are Scottish. If they want independence then fine, but talk of breaking them off of Scotland (like pieces of chocolate Mr Hammond?) is not on London's say so.
 
 
# xyz 2012-02-01 23:52
I don't know if anyone posted a link to NICHOLAS SOAMES SECURES ADJOURNMENT DEBATE IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS ON NORTH SEA OIL AND GAS 25 Jan 2012 : Column 383

Hansard
Volume 539
No 255
Columns 377-382

www.nicholassoames.org.uk/.../

A very encouraging report on the value to the economy of UK Scotland's OIL
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-02 00:01
Given how valuable it is, do you think the UK establishment will let us walk away with it? They know exactly what's at stake, and they'll use every dirty trick in the book to hang on to it. They're already kicking themselves for not having declared Rockall to be part of the City of London, rather than Inverness-shire.
 
 
# xyz 2012-02-02 00:26
Anything can happen ... some accommodation might have to be made .. but on the other hand, as Nicholas Soames says 55 percent of the jobs are not in Scotland, and yet Scottish oil pays for them all. So even after they relinquish what is rightfully ours, there is still a great benefit to those working in the industry but not based in Scotland.
 
 
# bringiton 2012-02-02 00:37
JB,Secure energy supplies are very important to any nation as well as the wealth generated from supplying it to others.
The UK government,howe ver,are much more concerned with their place at the top table of nuclear bombing powers.
As long as they can threaten the rest of the world with oblivion,they feel secure.
What are they going to do when their main weapon arsenal is located in another country ?
This is probably more significant to London than the loss of oil revenues as it will have a significant long term effect on their place at the table and therefor their perceived importance in the world.
 
 
# xyz 2012-02-02 00:48
Regarding Rockall have you seen this: panoramio.com/.../...

Found via Google earth
 
 
# J Wil 2012-02-02 15:29
"They're already kicking themselves for not having declared Rockall to be part of the City of London, rather than Inverness-shire."

I suspect they would rather cede it to Ireland than admit it is Scottish.
 
 
# rai1869 2012-02-02 14:24
cracking picture, if the unionists haven't realised it yet, they have well and truly lost what little credability they have left
 
 
# bringiton 2012-02-03 12:38
I have been concerned about the attacks the unionists are making on our proposals for which currency we will use.
They say that having a "foreign" central bank making decisions about borrowing and interest rates fundamentally undermines the case for independence.
However,the whole point of being independent is that a Scottish government would make policy decisions based on what was in Scotland's best interest (sorry about the pun) at the time i.e. as in all things,being independent gives you choices.
Most people will not care what currency they use (dealing in paper money transactions is becoming rarer due to debit and credit card usage) but will be concerned about mortgage payments and savings/borrowing rates.
Anyone who can predict what state currencies will be in several years down the road and consequently what central banks will be setting interest rates at would be a very rare beast (in fact could make a bundle at the Turra Show with a tent and a crystal bowl).
It is a very sensible policy to stick with Sterling,initia lly,but have the alternative to make changes should circumstances dictate.
Our country our choice.
 
 
# rob4i 2012-02-03 23:00
I have been aware of all this for years but I still worry about the Scottish electorate at the referendum and a NO vote and the world ridicule and disbelief that a people could do this to their own country and become known as the only human invertebrates on this planet!!
 
 
# Leswil 2012-02-07 18:07
I was thinking about the "McCrone" report and how the media has stiffled it again.
With this in mind, it will be obvious to most who anticipate in this website that there are now many committee's now, for many things. The NEWS INTERNATIONAL one is but one in point. Where a selected body of people interrogate the people they wish to,in order to get to the truth.
HMMM, how's about a Scottish committee on the cause and effect of the "McCrone Report", the consequences on Scotland and it's people.
The committee could call David Cameron ( to lie and squirm) to testify. Others, E.Milliband, Lord Forsyth, and other heavyweight unionists.
Maybe you think they would not come, well possibly, but would that not be embarrassing for them. In truth Scotland needs answers that will not be forthcoming from the media.
We could start a petition to call them to account!.
 
 
# 1scot 2012-02-11 12:07
Every household in Renfrewshire will have a copy of this by the end of March.
 
 
# Tommy Kelly 2012-03-12 16:02
'Like' the McCrone Report page on facebook
 
 
# Dundonian West 2012-04-12 12:10
John Jappy above,and McCrone should be disseminated in full,and also in condensed form (most important)on to Facebook and other media.
What about local TV/radio stations in the USA?
Lots of Scots/Irish heritage there.
Would they run with it?
Might Google and find some.
 

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