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By Russell Bruce

There’s that old joke that if you ask 10 economists a question you will get 11 answers. If one thing is certain the numbers and opinions being bandied about by economists, think tanks and Uncle Tom Cobley and all is set to rise exponentially as the Independence Referendum gathers pace.

In the latest edition of the National Institute Economic Review there is an interesting article by Dr Angus Armstrong.

Interesting because as the divisions between those writing from a Unionist perspective and those writing from an independence perspective crystalise we can begin to see that there is in fact some agreement in some areas but differing conclusions on others from the selected evidence.

As Dr Armstrong’s paper contains a lot of sound analysis on which agreement exists, that is the best place to start.  Dr Armstrong’s contribution to the debate was welcomed by John Swinney.

On the question of retaining the pound Dr Armstrong sets out the common criteria for a monetary union as:

• a high degree of cross-border trade relative to domestic trade including intermediate and final products

• capital and labour market mobility

• both nations have similar structures and cycles

Around 40% of Scotland’s exports go to the rest of the UK.  We would continue to be part of a single market at existing UK level and within the EU.

With that comes capital and labour mobility, and given common language and a long standing history of free movement plus starting from a similar structural base, there is no doubt about the value to both nations of a common currency at least in the immediate term.

Some of the more extreme Unionists may well argue that as England is the larger economy it can manage very well without access to the Scottish economy, but this is far from the case in a global market in which we would both be competing.

Present interdependency and mutual trading interests demand a continuing open market in both directions.  Of course it is in Scotland’s interest to expand trade with other markets and encourage investment from other parts of the world.

That process is already well under way as the long list of those who have signed up to invest in Scotland over the last few years prove, laying a basis, not for any reduction in cross border trade between Scotland and rUK, but for a continuing expansion into world markets just as the Irish achieved in the post 1950s period.

Dr Armstrong argues that sharing The Bank of England would place Scotland at potential disadvantage, having to share bank interest rate but not necessarily obtaining the same credit rating and implied present low interest rate on borrowings.

I will come back to that when we get into the detail of debt share and asset distribution.

In the concluding part of his introduction Dr Armstrong says:

”There may be many intangible benefits from independence but the Scottish Parliament [Scottish Government] is likely to find the implicit financial constraints on economic policy, especially fiscal policy, are even more restrictive than being a full member of the UK”.

For ‘many intangible benefits’ read ‘unrealised potential’ to explain the nature of a contested future.  The implication is that independence is a move into unknown and uncharted territory, forgetting it is a well-trodden path.

Staying within the Union is presented as stable, but that is equally open to question and may be much more an act of blind faith given the growing difference in both social and economic policy direction between Scotland and Westminster.

A separate article in the National Institute Economic Review (NIER) on the UK economy notes that the UK currently suffers from deficient demand, and that present fiscal policy is contributing to this deficiency.  It is suggested an easing of fiscal policy would provide an economic boost.

This update on the UK economy forecasts that real gross national income and GDP will contract during 2012.  The forecast ‘growth’ areas are Public Sector Net Borrowing (£7bn) and unemployment reaching 9.1%.

All of which points to a further deterioration in the UK economy.  Perhaps time for the Plan MacB that George Osborne has refused to consider.  The longer he leaves it, the more difficult it will be to get recovery underway and restore some confidence in the UK economy.

There is an estimated £700 billion in company’s bank accounts just waiting for the right conditions to invest.  With the right signals and incentives that money would at least begin to flow and help stimulate growth.

I came across an everyman’s guide to fiscal intervention that suggested building a bridge would create lots of construction jobs as an example of something that would cut unemployment, raise tax and National Insurance revenue, increase the money supply at local level as money circulates through local businesses and cut the dole bill.

Scotland is doing just that with the construction of a second Forth road bridge - the biggest Scottish infrastructure project for a generation.

Dr Armstrong’s article discusses statistics relating to Scotland’s fiscal debt and share of UK debt, but there is no comparative analysis to set this in context.

A current account deficit comes about where annual expenditure is greater than income.  The shortfall identifies the Public Sector Net Borrowing Requirement (PSBR).  This is then added to Public Sector Net Debt (PSND) being the amount of accumulated national debt.

Of course in the good years the current account should generate a surplus enabling total national debt to be reduced.

Both measures are usually expressed as a percentage of Gross National Product (GDP) and it is these figures that are used for international comparison and by the markets to calculate a country’s credit worthiness.

Dr Armstrong calculates Scotland’s average annual fiscal deficit at 4% and Scotland’s share of UK national debt at 70% of GDP based on a geographic share of North Sea oil.

NIER expect the UK’s deficit on the current account to be around 7% of GDP and UK net debt at 60.5% of GDP in the current year.  The bad news is they are projecting net debt to grow to 75.7% of GDP by 2016/17.

Dr Armstrong notes that to meet Maastricht Treaty obligations the annual general government deficit should be no higher than 3% of GDP and gross debt no more than 60% of GDP.  A country above these percentages has an excessive deficit.

The UK government has to report these figures under Maastricht Treaty obligations but there are technical variations in the way these figures have to be calculated.

Using the Maastricht calculation formula the UK general government net borrowing rose from 2.7% of GDP in 2007 to 10.2% in 2010.  Gross debt rose form 44.5% of GDP in 2007 to 76.1% in 2010. (ONS)

The Treasury prefers is own methodology and complains it is ‘assessed uniquely’ within the EU.  Terrible thing it is to be unfairly treated by a Union of which you are a member!

I have already mentioned NIER’s October projections of UK net debt so it is only right to also look at the Chancellors figures in his Autumn Statement last November as they are required to be reported under Maastricht.

The Chancellor’s statement shows UK gross debt at 84.2% of GDP for 2011/12 rising to 93.9% in 2014/15 and easing slightly to 89.7% of GDP by 2016/17 using the Treaty formula.

Finally I think a comparison with other EU countries places the UK situation and Scotland’s independence inheritance in a wider context.  For this purpose I am using my tables of estimated fiscal debt and gross debt as a percentage of GDP for 2011 from Global Finance.  The actual outturn figures are likely to be slightly different when known, but that will be the case with all future projections quoted in this article.

Only three EU countries, all Northern European, have a projected deficit under 3% - Sweden, Finland and Estonia.  Sweden has a population of 9 million, Finland 5.3 million and Estonia 1.4 million which puts the perspective of size advantage in perspective.

Germany, the EU’s largest economy, projected deficit stands at -3.7%, an improvement on their 2010 outturn of -4.3%. The average for all EU countries is -5.1%.

The 2011 projection for the UK was -8.1% but the Chancellor’s Autumn Statement projects the Treaty deficit at -9.5%.

The projection for UK gross debt as a percentage of GDP stands at 83% against the EU27 average of 63.7%. George Osborne thinks the outturn will be 76.5% but on a rising curve as reported above.

Giving the Chancellor the benefit of the doubt with gross debt at 76.5% of GDP, the UK, the second largest economy in the EU, would be the 8th most indebted nation of all 27 members.

Scotland will start from conditions it will inherit from the UK.  Those figures stand comparison with other EU nations.  Dr Armstrong’s calculations of a 4% budget deficit and debt of around 70% of GDP do not look insurmountable.

Scottish Government competence, as supported by the electorate, suggests that our potential is to rank much higher in the European league tables than is the case with the UK’s current poor ratings.

Dr Armstrong suggested that Scotland could not rely on getting the same low interest rates on its debt as the UK.  Truth is nobody knows for certain but Scotland’s assets and as the highest performing national/regional economy in the UK after London and the South East suggest that AAA rating does not look elusive.

Dr Angus Armstrong was Head of Macroeconomic Analysis at HM Treasury from mid 2004 until he joined the National Institute of Economic and Social Research as Director of Macroeconomic Research in September 2011.

 

References

Armstrong, A., Scotland’s Currency and Fiscal Choices in National Institute Economic Review No 219 January 2012 ppF4-F9

Autumn Statement, November 2011, HM Treasury, The Stationary Office

Eurostat, Government finance statistics Summary tables — 2/2011

Data 1996 - 2010

Kirkby,S. and Whitworth, R., Prospects for the UK economy in National Institute Economic Review No 218 October 2011 pp54-76

NIER The UK economy in Economic Overview, National Institute Economic Review No 219 January 2012

ONS (2011) Statistical Bulletin Government deficit and debt under the Maastricht Treaty

Comments  

 
# balbeggie 2012-02-07 20:59
England will still need our electricity - real time data

nationalgrid.com/.../Demand
 
 
# rhymer 2012-02-08 17:00
Quoting balbeggie:
England will still need our electricity


Apart from that, surely if our GNP exceeds our spending then any doubts about our economic success are just hot air.
 
 
# Louperdowg 2012-02-07 21:12
Does the UK traditionally trash the reputation of countries looking to become independent and then neglect to trade with them or is Scotland a special case?
 
 
# shackled to a corpse 2012-02-07 21:27
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.
 
 
# shackled to a corpse 2012-02-07 21:37
Oh, and Lowperdog I remember reading somewhere (perhaps someone with more knowledge than me can confirm/elaborate) that the UK did exactly that to the Irish economy for a number of years. I've never felt closer to our Irish cousins than i do now.
 
 
# clootie 2012-02-07 21:26
Facts do not matter to the unionist camp. All they need do is create doubt and hold the line on those concerned about their financial future.

The most important point in reality is that we do not get a fair proportion at present nor do we have the ability to invest or borrow against our resources.

We will do much better as a nation in control of our future and the social character of Scotland will mean it will be a much better place for those who have made the choice to live here.

Regardless of your party - vote for an independent nation in control of it's future - a much fairer society.
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-07 22:03
Well said. The money's nice clootie but having freedom of choice is better. I'm probably of the camp who feels we'll only be a wee bit better off initially and build from there. But better off or not I'm going to be first in the door at the polling station. :)
 
 
# gfaetheblock 2012-02-07 21:28
The downgrading of the credit rating for an independent Scotland is a massive worry, especially if there are limited fiscal levers to pull. It would make us all poorer and discourage investment.

With no stand alone history to base a rating on, the markets will be naturally cautious, i don't see the logic for the following quote comes from:

'suggest that AAA rating does not look elusive'
 
 
# balbeggie 2012-02-07 21:41
you are being selective - the whole sentence gives the reasoning behind it:

Truth is nobody knows for certain but Scotland’s assets and as the highest performing national/regional economy in the UK after London and the South East suggest that AAA rating does not look elusive.
 
 
# gfaetheblock 2012-02-07 21:48
Apologies, not meaning to be specifically selective.

My concern is that that is based on being part of a larger, proven economy. Remove Scotland from that adds uncertainty to Scotland, the money markets are adverse to uncertainty, which will have a negative impact on Scotland.

There is a flaw in the logic that says that we perform well as a region of the UK, so we will perform that well when independent. We may do, or it may different (better or worse) but no one can speak in absolutes or with the basis of past performance as an independent country. Therefore uncertainty will exist.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-07 22:12
As far as the rating agencies are concerned, a similar position would be taken with rUK. The agencies would need to recalculate their position too.

A currency union of the current sterling area - UK plus the Crown Dependencies - would minimise the difficulties for all economies involved. Hence why the SNP's suggestion that a Currency Union would suit everyone is well founded.
 
 
# Sleekit 2012-02-07 22:41
Uncertainty exists no mater which option is chosen.

The current Westminster Cabal are showing that they are incapable of seeing past blinkered ideology and investing for the future.

This could lead to massive problems down the line for the UK.

Meanwhile, the whole concept of Re-industrialisati on which the SNP propose in an independent Scotland is the process of investing for the future.

It may work, it may not, but the sit on your hands and do nothing approach of the Treasury will certainly lead to stagflation or even a double dip.

As such it is infinitely better to look at the options in the terms of a business case...

One company wants to invest and attract new customer while performing more work in house to increase utilisation, they are willing to adapt and offer training to achieve this and have a healthy business to start from.

The other company wants to outsource all skills to india and purchase from the lowest cost suppliers at home and abroad while decreasing workers rights and increasing profits for already wealth shareholders. This then results in the skills and capabilities that made the company being lost to other organisations.

Which one do you think will do better in the long run?
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-08 07:27
Don't forget Sleekit we'd also be the poster boy for the small business expansion model. A small nation (only 5 mil) sitting on top of massive and now governable natural assets. Those assets won't be put to use building the M25 or paying out billions for Trident, they won't be used to underwrite her majesty's treasurey when it gets in bother. Those assets will be used to look after a modest nation of 5 million.

Its not that we'll be that much better off financially in the immediate aftermath of independence, its what we'll be able to do once we are independent. We could only throw it all away, its always been down to trust. Who do you trust to look after the people of Scotland? Westminster or Holyrood?
 
 
# Briggs 2012-02-07 21:44
Our oil gives us an AAA+ rating.

Englands rating would drop on Independence for Scotland.

It's what the English fear the most after the Trident eviction.

No bomb .....no posturing on the World Stage.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-07 21:56
Our oil gives us an AAA+ rating.

It doesn't, I'm afraid. The likelihood of repaying our debts will be what determines our rating. That's 'perceived likelihood', not 'ability' and certainly not 'quantity of natural resources'. Even the richest person may find they have a poor credit rating if they have no history of credit. Scotland, as a newly independent nation, will have no credit history.
 
 
# shackled to a corpse 2012-02-07 21:59
We'll either be a successor state or we won't

We'll either inherit debts and assets or we won't

We'll either inherit privileges and obligations or we won't

Don't be sucked into the lie that we inherit everything bad and nothing good

We either inherit good and bad, or its clean slate time

And for them to say we'll have to join the euro, but confusingly that they'll also veto our EU membership just shows the paucity and desperation of the argument
 
 
# Sleekit 2012-02-07 22:45
Exactly...

I often wonder which would be better as they both have benefits we could play to.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-07 22:18
But a Sterling Currency Union would have - unlike Scotland and rUK, which wouldn't have.
 
 
# shackled to a corpse 2012-02-07 22:23
Oldnat you are of course right and i doff my cap to your superior reasoning again. And that of course was the basis of the Scottish Government's recent statement saying that the BofE would bite our hands off to keep us in currency union. 2 years is well enough time to dispel these myths - let the unionist scaremongers birl and spin their nonsense now so we have more than enough time to tell the truth and dispel the myths.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-07 22:29
Thanks - but the reasoning was Swinney's and Salmond's! Doffing caps to them is more appropriate.
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-08 00:19
The 'ratings agencies' opinions only matter in so far as we are compelled to play in the global financial casino.
I'm sure we will have to rely on the 'money markets' to some degree, but the less the better - we've been balancing our books for a wee while now.
Also the analogy of global finance with domestic consumer credit is fairly limited (IMO), just look at the relative number of players in the markets for example (billions of punters vs hundreds of countries), so I'm not worried about credit histories; particularly in the face of obvious assets. A petro-backed (in the medium term) Scottish economy properly managed and actively looking to diversify shouldn't have too many problems.

A stable currency to let Scotland (as an economy) settle in, is good.

The opinion of the treasury's recently installed man at the think tank is the opinion of the treasury's recently installed man.

I'm not entirely sure why we're all so desperate to have a top 'rating' anyway.
Being a prosperous and productive nation will do for me.
 
 
# rhymer 2012-02-08 00:33
Quoting Jiggsbro:
'. Even the richest person may find they have a poor credit rating if they have no history of credit. Scotland, as a newly independent nation, will have no credit history.


OH rubbish!
We are not applying for a loan or a visa card.
Our GNP vs debt ratio is all we need for a AAA rating.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-08 07:56
The ratings agencies do not simply look at GNP vs debt. If they did, there would be no need for agencies with boards of economists and other experts. It could be done by a schoolkid with a calculator. The credit rating is not a simple financial measure, it's an assessment of risk. Risk that includes a great deal more than GNP and debt.
 
 
# rhymer 2012-02-08 17:03
AND jiggs we have LESS risk than the majority of the AAA rated nations.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-08 17:06
There's no basis for that claim. Like someone with no credit history, we have a risk which is difficult to quantify, and which will therefore err on the side of caution. Large assets do not automatically mean low risk.
 
 
# Exile 2012-02-07 21:49
But why should there be 'limited fiscal levers'? Independence surely means the full range of fiscal levers being available.
 
 
# shackled to a corpse 2012-02-07 21:55
Confusion between monetary and economic policy is rife - mostly propogated by the Unionist scaremonegers.
 
 
# gfaetheblock 2012-02-07 22:10
Be that BoE or ECB set interest rates?
 
 
# shackled to a corpse 2012-02-07 22:18
You're forgeting that we would set our own economic policy including tax rates. Interest rates are already set by an independent company.

Like i said above, Economic and monetary policy are 2 separate things.
 
 
# red kite 2012-02-07 22:03
Reportedly the UK is facing a likely credit rating downgrade in the near future.
Does that cause you massive worry ?
 
 
# gfaetheblock 2012-02-07 22:08
Yes
 
 
# tartanfever 2012-02-07 21:29
A very generalised outcome might be to say we will do ok as an independent nation (of course, we will be fighting Westminster on the size of the debt we will have to take and the oil rights )

Someone made a good point on the BBC debate programme a couple of weeks ago that it would be helpful to have basic information as to our financial situation made available and clearly on a side of A4 paper. I couldn't agree more.

(Yes, I know GERS etc are available, but it needs to be broken down into simple, understandable pieces of information)
 
 
# peter,aberdeenshire 2012-02-07 22:19
Following a link to the Telegraph I glimpsed at Cochrane's topics, the man really does have an unhealthy fixation with Alex Salmond.
The story in the Scotsman claiming the Jubilee may make Scots think again is more rubbish, listening to John Major yesterday on Jeremy Vine I was almost feeling queasy at his sooking up to her Maj, why would any human being feel so in awe to a woman born into a position of power which we pay for?
It is clear though that the unionist camp is bricking it about Scotland going it alone, now why would that be????
 
 
# fairliered 2012-02-08 01:01
Maybe Eck refused to dance with Cochrane. He certainly doesn't dance to Cochrane's tune!
 
 
# ferryman 2012-02-07 22:24
The big question i would ask is how much of the debt are we to take on as an Independent country. Surely if it is proven that the debt was rung up on the tills south of the border, we should not be expected to pay for it.One of the websites i visted showed that by 2015-2016 the UK national debt would be around £2 trillion. If we were to take that as a percentage we would be taking on about £160 billion of debt.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-07 22:48
It's pointless discussing the debts that we take on without also discussing the assets.

Arguably, those English colonies that existed prior to 1707, and are still colonies would belong to rUK. All pieces of territory that the UK has acquired since 1707 are mutually owned, and need to be divvied up appropriately. That would mean, for example, that British Antarctica and the Falkland territories, need to be thrown into the same pot as Rockall to decide who get what.
 
 
# shackled to a corpse 2012-02-07 22:57
oldnat i would argue that we shared all assets before and since - it was an incorporating union after all, and there was no pre-nuptual agreement. However, are there any pre-1707 colonies?
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-07 23:09
I did say "arguably"!

The Chagos Islands - from which the Brits moved the indigenous people to provide a UK/US air base might be considered as a colony.
 
 
# shackled to a corpse 2012-02-07 23:13
Further - Rockall was incorprated into the Union as part on Inverness-shire (and subsequently Eillean Siar) - it is not a colony and is as much part of Scotland as Mull or Harris.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-07 23:21
I was being somewhat challenging with that comment! :-) I'd argue that we need to trade off our share of some of the global "British Overseas Territories" to keep holding Rockall. The negotiations will be very involved and take a very long time.

The Czechs and Slovaks had it easy!
 
 
# marmaduke 2012-02-07 23:18
Bermuda, I believe.

en.wikipedia.org/.../...
 
 
# cynicalHighlander 2012-02-08 00:11
I think we already have an ambassador there in waiting.
 
 
# InfrequentAllele 2012-02-07 23:59
Quoting shackled to a corpse:
However, are there any pre-1707 colonies?


Colonies belonging to England prior to 1707 would remain English after the dissolution of the Treaty of Union. Otherwise we could find ourselves arguing for a share of Wales. Mind you, some of our Welsh friends might be quite happy with that.

Scotland arguably has the right to joint sovereignty for all UK overseas territories acquired after 1707.

List of UK colonies and territories acquired after 1707

Falkland Islands, first claimed in 1765
British Antarctic Territories, including South Orkneys, South Shetland, and Graham's Land, sovereignty formally asserted in 1908
South Georgia and the Sandwich Islands, 1775
St Helena, Ascension Island & Tristan da Cunha, acquisition of St Helena by England predates the Union of 1707, but Ascension Island was formally acquired in 1815, and Tristan da Cunha in 1816.
British Indian Ocean Territories, acquired in 1810 along with Mauritius, administrativel y separated prior to Mauritian independence.
Gibraltar, sovereignty formally acquired in 1713, Treaty of Utrecht
Pitcairn Islands, British sovereignty first asserted in 1767
Sovereign Base Areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia. Cyprus became a British protectorate in 1878. The base areas were administrativel y separated prior to Cypriot independence in 1960 and remain under UK rule.

Rockall, as shackled to a corpse pointed out, is not a colony or overseas territory. It's an integral part of Scotland and as such should be treated like any other integral part of Scotland. The disposition of UK overseas territories is not relevant to Rockall.
 
 
# Edna Caine 2012-02-08 00:16
Hmmm?

As an Empire Loyalist, I would suggest that Jockland also stakes claims to Australia, New Zealand and South Africa when they eventually come cap-in-hand to rejoin the Empire that they so foolishly decided to leave.

Maybe the USA too.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-08 00:21
Ooh! You are awful - but I like you.
 
 
# shackled to a corpse 2012-02-08 00:25
Don't forget Canada (Nova Scotia et al). And since Hawaii was part of the empire for a while I want Honolulu too!
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-08 00:39
I suspect that the sight of you in a grass skirt might be counter-productive.
 
 
# rhymer 2012-02-08 17:07
Quoting oldnat:
I suspect that the sight of you in a grass skirt might be counter-productive.


Take your strummer to him, oldest
 
 
# Angus 2012-02-08 10:55
Quoting Edna Caine:
Hmmm?

As an Empire Loyalist, I would suggest that Jockland also stakes claims to Australia, New Zealand and South Africa when they eventually come cap-in-hand to rejoin the Empire that they so foolishly decided to leave.

Maybe the USA too.

Scotland shouldnt be an imperialist country, that would make us hypocrits
 
 
# Sleekit 2012-02-07 22:55
Im afraid that the answer to that is most probably a straight split as per population percentages...

I know it is galling given that more was spend elsewhere but that is the precident of other countries and we will no doubt follow suit.

The upside of this however is that the Assets will be split as per population also and as there are more assets in the Rest of the UK they will more than likely have to provide a monetary equivalent rather than transfer them. (As that may not be possible).

The end result will probably be a reasonable reduction to the debt assigned to a newly independent Scotland.

Of course we may be able to haggle a lower value yet again if the RUK want to hire Faslane and Coulport for a Decade...

Its either that or unilateral disarmament.

And remember this:

Scotland would have been almost £20 billion better off had it been independent for the last thirty years, figures released by the Scotland Office have revealed.

A press release from Secretary of State Michael Moore claimed that an independent Scotland would have been £41 billion in the red. However official figures from the Scotland Office have left the gaffe prone MP red faced after it emerged that Scotland’s debt from being part of the Union is greater, running at £60 billion.

newsnetscotland.com/.../...

What mileage do you think they could get out of that one?
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-08 07:35
We'd take exactly 8.4% of the debt, underwritten by our own assets and resources. Its stiff, but it wouldn't make me sweat. UK gov are underwriting the whole lot right now with a fair chunk of our resources.
 
 
# DonaldMhor 2012-02-07 22:28
To me and to many people I speak to independence is not just about money. there is a huge unquantifiable dimension that the Ukanians fear more than any thing, and that is national pride. How many times have we seen that been taken in to consideration by London when it came to concealing the truth from us? Truths as exposed in the concealed McCrone report from the 70s.

Now that they see the writing on the wall, they want to fix the date, they Want to fix the agenda, they want to partition Scotland, they want to prevent us using Sterling, they Want to prevent us joining the EU, they want to hold a second referendum for the UK, they want to keep the same age limits on voters. On and on and on it goes a never ending mirage of moving goal posts trying so desperately to stop the inevitable. I am just waiting for Cathy Jameson to pop up and tell us it is going to be "very very very very very very very very very difficult."

No doubt there will be difficulties along the way, no doubt there will be periods of financial restraints as all nations have, especially the biggest ones. No doubt there will be mistakes made. What is not in doubt is that they will be ours, made here in Scotland.Accountable to the Scottish electorate through our own government in Scotland. That to me is worth all the oil and whisky revenues put together. We are suffering debt and many of our children are in poverty right now. Many of our old people suffer fuel poverty right now. We have WMDs foisted on us we do not want. We have media foisted on us we have no control over. We want control of our nation back NOW.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-07 23:03
Quoting DonaldMhor:
No doubt there will be mistakes made. What is not in doubt is that they will be ours, made here in Scotland.Accountable to the Scottish electorate through our own government in Scotland.



"I ken, when we had a king, and a chancellor, and parliament-men o' our ain, we could aye peeble them wi' stanes when they werena gude bairns - Bit naebody's nails can reach the length o' Lunnon."
 
 
# Marga B 2012-02-08 01:08
I'm afraid for most people it is THE issue and without more certainty on this issue I think when it comes to it, many people will retract from the Yes vote on the day as a nice dream.
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-08 07:39
Laddie, ah like yer style. :)
 
 
# Sleekit 2012-02-07 23:13
OT

Sorry to go OT but has anyone read this pile of garbage?

heraldscotland.com/.../...

For many, independence seemed like a good idea, or was at least worth considering. However, the level of debate around the practicalities of how this might operate has intensified in early 2012, serving to focus minds on the realities and implications to a greater extent, and resulting in a weakening of support and reassertion of opposition to Scotland becoming an independent state.

In the battle for hearts and minds, the pro-union appeal to minds with rational arguments has held greater initial sway than the more emotional appeal to hearts of the pro-independence lobby, and this is a measure of the challenge facing Alex Salmond and the SNP.

Written by Chris Eynon - head of pollster TNS-BMRB Scotland
 
 
# shackled to a corpse 2012-02-07 23:15
Unreferenced pile of garbage presumably since i cannot recall any polls or articles backing the assertions.
 
 
# Jim1320 2012-02-07 23:26
I was thinking, given recent polls, that the bandwagon had picked up speed and that there is a whiff of desperation from the likes of Cochrane et al. They only seem to play the man and not the ball these days.

So what are these rational arguments?

Scotland wouldn't be allowed into the EU and there would be armed guards at the border because under EU Schengen rules Scotland would be an immigration free for all? If you call an uncoordinated scare fest rational then yes it has been very rational.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-07 23:23
I saw that. You would expect a pollster to base comments on evidence. Eynon singularly failed to do so.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-07 23:27
That last sentence - being not simply false, but the reverse of the actual situation - does seem to betray a significant bias on the part of the pollster. Is this the poll where they undoubtedly managed to get pro-independence people to disagree by asking if Scotland should negotiate with London for its independence?
 
 
# Islegard 2012-02-08 00:07
If a pollster is so utterly bias how can we have faith any poll will ever be reliable.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-08 00:10
To be fair, there is a difference between the mechanics of how a poll is conducted, and the spin put on the result by a politically motivated employee of a polling company.
 
 
# Marga B 2012-02-08 01:10
This polling company should up its act, how can it have any credibility if it lets its own staff quote unsubstantiated twaddle.
 
 
# Zef 2012-02-08 00:32
The Herald does not understand the concept of hypocrisy. Their union side is allowed to tug on the heart strings like it was ringing the church bells and every time the unionist media fails to report on this element, barring a wee rare outburst of sanity from one or two of the better writers who haven't sunk to Alan at Torygraph's level.
 
 
# macdoc 2012-02-08 01:06
The problem is the people favouring the Union in Scotland are doing so by what they percieve as rational arguments. the reality is that they are voting in such a way is because they beleive the scare stories and propaganda perpetuated by the British nationalists and the British Nationalist media.

I think very few vote for the union on any romantic attacthment to Britishness.

This at least is positive as the former can be changed with FACTS, the latter would mean the end of Scotland, eventual assimiliation into Englishness and the destruction of Scottish culture.
 
 
# Jim1320 2012-02-07 23:18
Fixation on an AAA rating in 2014 when Sterling might very well not have an AAA rating by then is pointless.

The US and Japan lost their S&P AAA rating but no one is suggesting they shut up shop. AAA shroud waving bereft of world economic context is just another bogeyman from those that really ought to be thinking what their positive arguments for Union are by now. The longer they delay the less convincing they will become when at the 11th hour they realise they will need such an argument.
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-07 23:52
The trouble is , I suspect, that there is no such argument.
 
 
# InfrequentAllele 2012-02-08 01:19
Exactly, if there really was a positive argument we'd have heard it by now. Glenn Campbell would have done a 3 hour special about it to be shown every night on BBC Scotland for a fortnight then repeated on BBC Alba in Gaelic. Alan Cochrane would actually have a smile on his face and could pen an entire article without having to get in a personal attack on Alex Salmond.

All we've had by way of a positive case is sub-Vera Lynn waffle about how "We fought Hitler you know."

There are monsters in lochs which are less mythical than the Positive Case for the Union.
 
 
# rhymer 2012-02-08 17:12
Quoting InfrequentAllel e:
There are monsters in lochs which are less mythical than the Positive Case for the Union.


A myth is an unmarried lady with a lisp
Whereas Nessie is a tourist gold mine.
 
 
# Zef 2012-02-08 00:36
Don't forget all those securities that had triple A ratings from the same parcel of rogues right up until the 2008 crisis and then suddenly it was junk rated and worth less than the contents of Oxfam's bins! Overnight their "expert" evaluation flip flopped around from one extreme to the other as they scrabbled to maintain credibility.

They are destined to become irrelevant in any sane and stable future.
 
 
# Mad Jock McMad 2012-02-07 23:47
Scottish GDP in 2008 an estimated £145 billion - cost to the UK of the RBS / HBOS bail out in 2008 £88 billion - actual Scottish share on a per capita basis £8.8 billion, on debt accrued by the Scottish registered banks which would have been an independent Scotland's liability estimated at £2.4 billion.

Another Unionist myth busted.
 
 
# Zef 2012-02-08 00:38
That's even assuming we would bail it out in the first place. There's no reason why we would have to bail out a private company with public taxes just so that group of pigs can enjoy themselves at the trough for longer. They didn't bail out plenty other more worthwhile business in Scotland as the industry withered away.
 
 
# cynicalHighlander 2012-02-08 00:10
Ratings agencies to be quizzed over MF Global: ft.com/.../...

I wouldn't take any long term financial advice from any of these rating agencies without a very large pinch of salt.
 
 
# Zef 2012-02-08 00:40
The same agencies or people involved in them can profit greatly from spinning whatever tale they like. Every incentive to lie and cheat and none to tell the truth. I wouldn't even trust them as far as I could throw them.
 
 
# Zef 2012-02-08 00:13
For anyone interested in the economic options and freedom we can enjoy post-independence I'd suggest looking into Bill Still's book and documentary film (the complete film is also legally available online on youtube : www.youtube.com/.../ free (author uploaded and approved) or through various filesharing systems). The book and film covers more than the American history and viewpoint and applies to countries around the world, so it is well worth viewing. He has a great interest in monetary and economic history and has a lot of material on our own economic status and history and other parts of these isles.

His work has been gathering interest in more than one wee country out there standing up for itself, such as Iceland, Ireland, etc. If money makes the world go round then first we'd better get hold of the purse strings from London and then educate ourself how to avoid the same pitfalls and disasters as the past.

I think independence is a chance to break away from the suicidal economic policies of Wastemonster that more often than not only serve a very few in the City.

We all know here that the strongest case for independence of Scotland is educating ourselves and others and the same thing will ensure the success of our newly independent and free auld nation.
 
 
# Tinyzeitgeist 2012-02-08 01:49
Zef -Agreed, with a new independent Scotland we can look to do what suits us, the people. We need not merely replicate a system (westminster/city of london/treasury) that is clearly not fit for purpose. In my view Modern Monetary Theory - MMT, is the way forward, but more discussion and debate is needed.
 
 
# Early Ball 2012-02-08 01:11
OT I missed this gem from that towering statesman Willie Bain in the Guardian. He wrote an article last week slagging AS. The poor loon gets slaughtered in the comments. Anyone seen any sign of the promised positivity from the red Tories?

guardian.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# rhymer 2012-02-08 17:18
[quote name="Early Ball"]OT I missed this gem from that towering statesman Willie Bain in the Guardian. quote]

"50 progressive MPs". ?
Wrong Willie it is 50 labour MPs.
And getting rid of them is progress.
 
 
# daveniz 2012-02-08 01:34
funny how the paper doesn't say Willie bain is a labour mp and almost straight away he says labour abolished tuition fees which is a blatant lie it was the SNP who abolished it not labour who introduced it also its so pathetic that he seems to live in a world that says SNP, alex salmond bad! labour, Tories, lib dems, westminister, house of commons expenses system, London flat good! almost like he is brainwashed or just looking out for his own selfish intrests! it might be both actually it is both no doubt about it and let's be honest the unionists mps will lie, lie and lie to keep it that way because independance threatens there luxury lifestyle and the people of Scotland need to know they can not be trusted with the truth especially when there 5 pieces of gold are at risk and will sell out Scotland to keep it!
 
 
# C2DEalba 2012-02-08 01:41
Interesting article, I think as long as Scotland is independent then we have the opportunity to change whatever the economic or financial position is.

I think remaining in the UK is damaging our prospects. I'm sure that Wastemonster will create suffering worse than Thatcher if its a no vote.

Soar alba
 
 
# creag an tuirc 2012-02-08 03:11
OT: Looks like the SDA have asked the CoE and OSCE to keep an eye on Westminster.

www.scottishtimes.org/.../
 
 
# D_A_N 2012-02-08 03:59
:D :D

I'm starting to stress a lot less as all the things that I worry about start to come to the forefront. This is great, hopefully it will be taken seriously. This is really interesting... Would love to see how and if it is reported in the MSM

Good times
 
 
# PrideoftheClyde 2012-02-08 05:23
Without a hint of irony the unionist media will probably accuse the EU of interfering in their referendum.
 
 
# mountaincadre 2012-02-08 08:21
Warning shot acrooss the bows.
 
 
# The_Duke 2012-02-08 08:45
I would love the CoE were to look at the BBC Scotland situation (assuming they have the remit to do so). I can't watch BBC news now.... it physically makes me sick and angry that this happens in this day and age.
 
 
# cadgers 2012-02-08 09:52
Quoting balbeggie:
England will still need our electricity - real time data

nationalgrid.com/.../Demand

I still think they are going to need our water too.Their water tables are dropping alarmingly and a lot of the rivers, especially in the south-east, are drying up. Perhaps they'll have to convert all these yet to be built nuclear plants into desalination plants?
 
 
# Angus 2012-02-08 11:04
Quoting cadgers:
Quoting balbeggie:
England will still need our electricity - real time data

nationalgrid.com/.../Demand

I still think they are going to need our water too.Their water tables are dropping alarmingly and a lot of the rivers, especially in the south-east, are drying up. Perhaps they'll have to convert all these yet to be built nuclear plants into desalination plants?

Thats another issue Cadgers, oil and water are the future demands.
As we know Scotland has plenty of both, infact enough oil for the next 60-80 years, on top of that a whisky industry that is no making more than £100 seconds per second for the UK chancellor, in exise alone!
 
 
# John Souter 2012-02-08 13:42
Truth is nobody knows what the UK's debt mountain or credit rating will be by 2015. And credit ratings are not the only factor that come into the interest charged on debt. The threat of devaluation of a currency eg., quantitative easing lessens the value of the currency and forces demand for higher interest rates to offset the effect.

On the issue of an independent Scotland's liabilities on the UK debt, I suspect the opening position would be to accept zero liability - why accept a liability when we had no control nor input into its creation. The next position would be to audit any direct benefit Scotland directly and exclusively gained and agree a liability equal to it. At the very worst, the weakest gambit would be to accept 8.4% of the debt based on population ratio.

However, all that aside, in my opinion Westminster has shown no indication of aspirational change that would slow, let alone halt, its downward spiral in the league of competent and democratic nations.

That being the case, the cost of getting off is important but secondary to how quickly we make the move. That is the crucial factor.
 
 
# Jim Johnston 2012-02-08 18:54
Well I suppose if we need a few bob anytime as an Independent Scotland.....we could always stick a higher export tariff on all energy exports. Those who can afford it, because they will be so much better off without Scotland to worry about, I'm sure wont mind being ripped off for a change.
 
 
# Leswil 2012-02-09 11:59
As Westminster has been mis leading for more than thirty years over the amount of oil extracted from the North Sea. As this revenue would have to have been hidden somewhere to keep it concealed from public knowledge. May it not be the case then that the books are balanced in the performance receipts of England? If this is the case it would make the revenue there much stronger than it should be.
Therefore in the event of Independence and the subsequent loss to the UK treasury of the known AND unknown revenue would likely result in a downgrading of the rUK credit ratings. I am I wrong in my thinking? comments please.
 
 
# Ard Righ 2012-02-11 17:40
What is this obsession with economics?
It is only one facet of the geometry that makes Scotland.

Money isn't everything.
 
 
# Leswil 2012-02-11 22:06
Ard Righ
Yes you are right money is not everything, but the unfortunate fact is money is needed to improve the fabric of Scottish life.
So while it is of but one issue, it is one the things people worry most about in difficult times. So forward planning on finance is just so necessary Scotland, especially at this time where we have to get things right.
I agree in principle with what you say, but the reality is, that it really does count. Unfortunately!
 

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