General
Friday, 03 February 2012 06:31
230 Comments
By a Newsnet reporter 
Members of the unelected House of Lords have launched an extraordinary attack on the Scottish Parliament by criticising the Scottish policy of free education for university students resident in Scotland.
The peers accused the elected Scottish Parliament of "discriminating" against students from England, Wales and Northern Ireland over tuition fees, and are calling for the UK coalition to curtail Holyrood's powers in order to 'address' the situation.
In yesterday's session, peers from all sides gave angry speeches at the "unfairness" of allowing Scottish students to study for free at universities north of the Border, while those from the rest of the UK had to pay up to £9,000 a year. No peers spoke in support of the Scottish Government's position. There are no SNP members of the House of Lords, in 2005 the party adopted a policy of refusing peerages as it believes the system to be undemocratic and unfair.
Should the political appointees who make up the great majority of the membership of the House of Lords get their way, Scottish students could find themselves forced to pay tuition fees like their English counterparts, and graduate facing debts of £30,000.
The demands follow official figures published earlier this week that showed the introduction of the fees had led to a marked decline in the numbers of students applying for university courses in England, a decline that was not repeated in Scotland where the Government is committed to the traditional Scottish right to a free education.
George Foulkes, former Labour MP and MSP, who was appointed to the House of Lords in 2005 by Tony Blair, claimed that the current situation was "quite disgraceful". Mr Foulkes demanded that the Scottish Government should be prevented from imposing "discriminatory" fees on students from England, Wales and Scotland studying at Scottish universities.
Mr Foulkes said: "It's just astonishing when you think of it, that students at Scottish universities students from Lisbon, from Madrid, from Berlin, will all get in free to Scottish universities but students from Belfast, from London, from Cardiff, will have to pay fees. It really is quite astonishing."
Michael Forsyth, former Conservative Scottish Secretary of State who presided over the electoral annihilation of his party in the 1997 General Election before being given a peerage as a Conservative appointee in 1999, threatened to curtail the powers of the elected Scottish government and decried the Scottish Government's policy as "wickedness" and said that it was creating "deep disquiet" elsewhere in the UK and was "alienating" people in England.
Mr Forsyth claimed that Holyrood had only adopted the policy in order to create anger elsewhere in the UK. "It's about upsetting the neighbours," he said. "It is quite divisive and quite wrong."
Mr Forsyth threatened to reduce the powers of the Scottish Parliament in order to ensure that it could not adopt a different set of priorities from those dictacted by the Westminster Parliament. Mr Forsyth said: "It seems to me that it would be entirely appropriate for the government to restrict the powers of the Scottish Parliament so that it cannot operate in this way in any area of policy."
The former Conservative MP then repeated the claim that Scots only enjoy their education thanks to the "generosity" of the English taxpayer, saying: "The Barnett formula is extremely generous, the spending per head on education is about 20% higher, and it really is adding insult to injury to ask the English to send more money north of the Border on education for the privilege of seeing their children treated less favourably than people from Greece."
The Scottish Government does not have the power to intercede with the EU to resolve the anomaly whereby students from other EU countries are permitted free access. This power is reserved to Westminster. However during the debate peers restricted their to the Scottish Parliament, and made no mention of the possibility of discussing the issue at an EU level.
A spokesperson for the Scottish Government denied the claims that the fees policy was discriminatory and reiterated that the Scottish Government was committed to the Scottish tradition of free access to higher education, saying:
"Tuition fee arrangements are based on domicile not nationality - and it is the Westminster Government that is failing English-domiciled students. We are committed to free access to higher education based on ability, not the ability to pay ... it is Westminster which refuses to pay for students from England."
Hear a BBC Radio Scotland report on the peers attack here:
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Comments
#
2012-02-03 08:12
"The Barnett formula is extremely generous, the spending per head on education is about 20% higher, and it really is adding insult to injury to ask the English to send more money north of the Border"
Luckily the SNP has proposed a solution to this problem. I assume we'll see the unelectable Lord Forsyth voting 'Yes' in the referendum.
Luckily the SNP has proposed a solution to this problem. I assume we'll see the unelectable Lord Forsyth voting 'Yes' in the referendum.
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2012-02-03 08:34
The self proclaimed "Toxic Twins" were described on Newsnight as the pro Independence "Dream Team" to save the Union.
You have to laugh at the thought of this duo, who never had an original idea in their life between them, leading a NO campaign. The mind boggles.
You have to laugh at the thought of this duo, who never had an original idea in their life between them, leading a NO campaign. The mind boggles.
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2012-02-03 13:23
Quoting Jim Johnston:
Clearly they think they are up to the job, from Hansard......
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I am most grateful to the noble Lord. I think that he and I need to be careful because we will soon be appearing in the nat blogs as an example of an unholy alliance. I have suggested to my noble friend that we should form a roadshow and go around Scotland extolling the virtues of the union. The only other explanation I could think of for why the Scottish Government are now pressing for some control over Antarctica is that perhaps they think it might be a good idea to pass regulations keeping me there on ice for the winter in order to avoid open debate.
publications.parliament.uk/.../...
The self proclaimed "Toxic Twins" were described on Newsnight as the pro Independence "Dream Team" to save the Union.
You have to laugh at the thought of this duo, who never had an original idea in their life between them, leading a NO campaign. The mind boggles.
Clearly they think they are up to the job, from Hansard......
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I am most grateful to the noble Lord. I think that he and I need to be careful because we will soon be appearing in the nat blogs as an example of an unholy alliance. I have suggested to my noble friend that we should form a roadshow and go around Scotland extolling the virtues of the union. The only other explanation I could think of for why the Scottish Government are now pressing for some control over Antarctica is that perhaps they think it might be a good idea to pass regulations keeping me there on ice for the winter in order to avoid open debate.
publications.parliament.uk/.../...
#
2012-02-03 14:35
Maisedotts - I've just glanced through your link.
It's dire, a cacophony of job-speak by toxic wind bags.
Perhaps this 'House of Lords' needs to be renamed as the Asylum for Lords.
It's dire, a cacophony of job-speak by toxic wind bags.
Perhaps this 'House of Lords' needs to be renamed as the Asylum for Lords.
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2012-02-03 17:52
I have suggested to my noble friend that we should form a roadshow and go around Scotland extolling the virtues of the union.
Please please please do! Foulkes and Forsyth. It sounds like a comedy double act. I will pay some of their expenses if they wish to set up such a roadshow. Should be worth a few thousand yes votes.
Please please please do! Foulkes and Forsyth. It sounds like a comedy double act. I will pay some of their expenses if they wish to set up such a roadshow. Should be worth a few thousand yes votes.
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2012-02-07 16:51
I think, reading between the lines, these two are making hay while the sun shines. They have already given up on the Scotland Bill and are just out to make mischif and rile the Scots. From that perspective they seem to be doing a great job?
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2012-02-03 08:40
What i'm more worried about is there attempt to muddy the waters over the devo-max option, there are still a lot of people who might buy into the,"jam tomorrow" scenario. If people want it on the referendum paper all well and good but to try and seperate it into two referendums could be a vote splitter, this needs to be shot down as the nonsense that it is.
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2012-02-03 10:28
Don't worry about that, there's plenty of time and all these issues will be aired at a time of our choosing. Just let them get on with it. It's good for people to consider DevoMax (or whatever it's called this week)because it takes them on a journey in their head, a journey that in most cases will be on a one way street to independence.
How will history judge these two Lords? If we lose then they'll gain notoriety and may be put in charge of dismantling the Scottish Parliament.
If we win, they'll be remembered as two of the anti-Scottish figures that caused people to flock to the polling stations to vote for independence.
How will history judge these two Lords? If we lose then they'll gain notoriety and may be put in charge of dismantling the Scottish Parliament.
If we win, they'll be remembered as two of the anti-Scottish figures that caused people to flock to the polling stations to vote for independence.
#
2012-02-03 08:53
I'm confused with the title of this article.
Have these peers actually said they want Scottish Universities to charge for Scots students ?
or
Do they want English students to be able to study for free in Scotland ?
Anyway, a despicable duo hell bent on keeping Scotland in the union at any cost, lies, deceit and trickery - they will stoop to any level.
Have these peers actually said they want Scottish Universities to charge for Scots students ?
or
Do they want English students to be able to study for free in Scotland ?
Anyway, a despicable duo hell bent on keeping Scotland in the union at any cost, lies, deceit and trickery - they will stoop to any level.
#
2012-02-03 09:17
What they are actually proposing is that other UK students be treated the same as Scottish and EU students.
In practical terms, Scottish Universities would be swamped with other UK students at the expense of the Scottish budget. The only possible solution to that would be all students including Scottish would have to pay fees.
In purely political terms they will be scoring a massive own goal by undermining devolution before the referendum debate.
In practical terms, Scottish Universities would be swamped with other UK students at the expense of the Scottish budget. The only possible solution to that would be all students including Scottish would have to pay fees.
In purely political terms they will be scoring a massive own goal by undermining devolution before the referendum debate.
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2012-02-03 11:04
And giving Scottish students a very good reason to vote YES in 2014! I'd like to see an announcement from Bute House that any debts incurred by Scottish students should the two f'ers get their way would be cancelled on Independence Day. That would set the choices in the correct light and would be a sure-fire vote-winner in the referendum.
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2012-02-03 14:42
Not only that but the want the English student to have access to air guns! Is this a tactical ploy to form a vanguard prior to invasion?
However. we would do well to remember these are old codgers playing at Monopoly politics.
However. we would do well to remember these are old codgers playing at Monopoly politics.
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2012-02-03 14:18
The education is the tip of the iceberg - what they want is to FORCE Scotland to adopt the same policies as England.
Watch out for NHS foundation hospitals, perscriptions and elderly care being on the hit list if ever this was to pass.
Fortunately, the way I read it now, either Holyrood would have to approve, or we'd need a referendum to agree to transfer those powers to Westminster.
Watch out for NHS foundation hospitals, perscriptions and elderly care being on the hit list if ever this was to pass.
Fortunately, the way I read it now, either Holyrood would have to approve, or we'd need a referendum to agree to transfer those powers to Westminster.
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2012-02-03 08:55
Clearly.. free education in Scotland, while the English pay was never envisaged when Scotland was allowed to have its own parliament...indeed .. Never was a SNP government was envisaged..it appears Scotland has driven a cart and horses through what was to be allowed by mother England.
One can imagine English peers being against "Free Scottish Education" but the Scottish peers *********** They were supposed to represent us.. the people.. instead they represent the English Westminster Establishment.
Edited to remove abusive comment - NNS Mod Team
One can imagine English peers being against "Free Scottish Education" but the Scottish peers *********** They were supposed to represent us.. the people.. instead they represent the English Westminster Establishment.
Edited to remove abusive comment - NNS Mod Team
#
2012-02-03 10:41
Correction: The Scottish Parliament was never envisaged to have ANY policy different from Westminster because it was designed to be a puppet parliament giving lip service to the issues of the day, but applying what Westminster wants anyway.
Their desire to reduce the powers to prevent the parliament from having a different set of priorities to Westminster shows that they do not actually want devolution.
This shoud be a warning for those tempted to vote no in the referendum.
As for the Barnett formula comments about education spend being 20% higher; this is NOT a feature of the Barnett formula. This is a feature of devolution. The devolved parliament, as Forsyth says, has decided on different priorities and this explains the spending difference.
The Barnett formula decides on the TOTAL spend, based on English spending (or the illusion of English spending). More disingenious garbage from Foulkes.
Their desire to reduce the powers to prevent the parliament from having a different set of priorities to Westminster shows that they do not actually want devolution.
This shoud be a warning for those tempted to vote no in the referendum.
As for the Barnett formula comments about education spend being 20% higher; this is NOT a feature of the Barnett formula. This is a feature of devolution. The devolved parliament, as Forsyth says, has decided on different priorities and this explains the spending difference.
The Barnett formula decides on the TOTAL spend, based on English spending (or the illusion of English spending). More disingenious garbage from Foulkes.
#
2012-02-03 12:19
"Their desire to reduce the powers to prevent the parliament from having a different set of priorities to Westminster shows that they do not actually want devolution.
This shoud be a warning for those tempted to vote no in the referendum."
Spot on, but people don't think anything will change should the independence referendum result in a No vote. Hopefully this will be a bit of an eye opener and folk realise they have no choice but to vote Yes, or tuition fees will be the thin end of the wedge, what will be next, paying for prescriptions and tolls on the bridges again?
This shoud be a warning for those tempted to vote no in the referendum."
Spot on, but people don't think anything will change should the independence referendum result in a No vote. Hopefully this will be a bit of an eye opener and folk realise they have no choice but to vote Yes, or tuition fees will be the thin end of the wedge, what will be next, paying for prescriptions and tolls on the bridges again?
#
2012-02-03 13:26
If they want to spend all their money on new infrastructures for London, I'm afraid that is their problem.
Could we not hear more about this kind of choice? Scotland makes sacrifices to invest in its societies - could they be quantified/pinned down?
Could we not hear more about this kind of choice? Scotland makes sacrifices to invest in its societies - could they be quantified/pinned down?
#
2012-02-03 08:56
If we charge Scottish students £9000/year it will be a much fairer society?
Does this not highlight the difference in values held by those in Scotland.
Which education system do you want (Ability or ability to pay)
which form of the NHS do you want
Do you want TRIDENT
Do you want a house an unelected House of LORDS
God help us if we don't vote YES in 2014. This is your one and only chance.
Does this not highlight the difference in values held by those in Scotland.
Which education system do you want (Ability or ability to pay)
which form of the NHS do you want
Do you want TRIDENT
Do you want a house an unelected House of LORDS
God help us if we don't vote YES in 2014. This is your one and only chance.
#
2012-02-03 12:27
One and only chance?
Suppose there's a fairly narrow no vote, in the context of Labour promising unspecified jam tomorrow. Suppose the Tories then get returned to Westminster in 2015, and carry on like this. Suppose there is a widespread feeling of betrayal, and an understanding that we were shafted.
Suppose the SNP decides to stand in 2016 on a platform of taking us straight out of the Union.
It wouldn't be my preferred route, obviously. Arguably, we'd have to get over 50% of the actual vote. But hell, that's only about a 3% swing....
Suppose there's a fairly narrow no vote, in the context of Labour promising unspecified jam tomorrow. Suppose the Tories then get returned to Westminster in 2015, and carry on like this. Suppose there is a widespread feeling of betrayal, and an understanding that we were shafted.
Suppose the SNP decides to stand in 2016 on a platform of taking us straight out of the Union.
It wouldn't be my preferred route, obviously. Arguably, we'd have to get over 50% of the actual vote. But hell, that's only about a 3% swing....
#
2012-02-03 14:22
S-N
No - you wouldn't need over 50% of the vote, just what you have today.
If the SNP clearly campaigned on that platform, its all that would be required.
Had they done so in 2011 we'd be done now, except I truly don't think they'd have gotten the result they did.
No - you wouldn't need over 50% of the vote, just what you have today.
If the SNP clearly campaigned on that platform, its all that would be required.
Had they done so in 2011 we'd be done now, except I truly don't think they'd have gotten the result they did.
#
2012-02-03 09:01
Two sad, old dinosaurs with a bitter and twisted outlook on life.
Scotland has moved on without them and they don't like it.
Scotland has moved on without them and they don't like it.
#
2012-02-03 09:19
This will please the Scottish students no end?????
That will be a nice surge from students and parents of student to the YES campaign.
And on top of that we have another joint attack with Labour and the Tories, the Unions will love that one to bits.
That will be a nice surge from students and parents of student to the YES campaign.
And on top of that we have another joint attack with Labour and the Tories, the Unions will love that one to bits.
#
2012-02-03 09:19
So it's come to this. Labour in bed with the Tories and not one Scottish Lord said anything to defend our right to a free education?
Heaven help as all if we don't get that YES vote. Scotland will be bound and gagged for the next 300 years. It will make Thatcher's years seem like a tea party.
Heaven help as all if we don't get that YES vote. Scotland will be bound and gagged for the next 300 years. It will make Thatcher's years seem like a tea party.
#
2012-02-03 09:25
How dare the SNP discriminate against English students by offering Scottish students free education. What are they thinking of? Next thing they'll be wanting to improve the lives of Scots in all manner of ways, lets not upset the Lords by offering free prescriptions or health care to the elderly, it might cause a seizure in some of the old doddery ermine clad dinosaurs before the third course at lunch.
#
2012-02-03 09:27
Surely no one actually takes these two old fools seriously . They care just desperate old men with not enough to do .
#
2012-02-03 10:35
Quoting colin8652:
Aye! But those two old fols have tabled amendments to the Scotland bill now bach in the Commons.
Surely no one actually takes these two old fools seriously . They care just desperate old men with not enough to do .
Aye! But those two old fols have tabled amendments to the Scotland bill now bach in the Commons.
#
2012-02-03 09:32
I feel a leaflet coming on. To be handed out outside universities & colleges. Vote Yes for free tuition. Yote No to pay fees.
#
2012-02-03 09:35
The Laurel and Hardie of the UK.
I wonder what Scottish students and their parents will have to say about their proposals?
It is a quirk of being in the EU that the situation has arisen, but why should the cost of education in Scotland be dictated by the Westminster government?
I wonder what Scottish students and their parents will have to say about their proposals?
It is a quirk of being in the EU that the situation has arisen, but why should the cost of education in Scotland be dictated by the Westminster government?
#
2012-02-03 11:43
I wish the gruesome twosome would just shut up.
The sheer hypocrisy of it all is just staggering. If they think that England is being treated differently from Scotland, they should remember Scotland was used as a testing ground for the Poll Tax a year before England - not to mention all the other raw deals we've had from Westminster.
As for the Devo Max situation, Cameron has already put paid to that idea so people should grasp that fact and vote for independence as the only way forward.
Mind you, if the pan-unionist front keep up all their anti-Scottish work, independence is a certainty.
The sheer hypocrisy of it all is just staggering. If they think that England is being treated differently from Scotland, they should remember Scotland was used as a testing ground for the Poll Tax a year before England - not to mention all the other raw deals we've had from Westminster.
As for the Devo Max situation, Cameron has already put paid to that idea so people should grasp that fact and vote for independence as the only way forward.
Mind you, if the pan-unionist front keep up all their anti-Scottish work, independence is a certainty.
#
2012-02-03 16:16
They should be pleased that Scottish education is free in continuance of a long standing tradition. After all, look what Scotland has given to the world and I am sure there is more to come.
#
2012-02-03 16:41
Yes CL and where were they when this (poll tax) was happening? The blue tory in one corner howling it on and the red tory in the other corner whimpering with the other feeble 50 while the sheriff's officers did the business.
#
2012-02-03 17:32
Quoting Caledonian Lass:
Caledonian Lass, the answer to your first heartfelt paragraph of your post is adequately answered by the last paragraph. Like you, I feel a surge of anger every time I read or hear of yet another spiteful anti-Scotland attack by these two unelected and unelectable old unionist enema bags.
However, when I emerge once again from the darkened room, I realise that they are actually an asset to the independence campaign. As others have already posted, imagine the effect it would have on wavering or undecided voters, if they are made to pay tuition fees, because the Westminster Bullingdon Bully Boys forced it through against the wishes of the elected SNP Scottish Government!
I wish the gruesome twosome would just shut up.
The sheer hypocrisy of it all is just staggering. If they think that England is being treated differently from Scotland, they should remember Scotland was used as a testing ground for the Poll Tax a year before England - not to mention all the other raw deals we've had from Westminster.
As for the Devo Max situation, Cameron has already put paid to that idea so people should grasp that fact and vote for independence as the only way forward.
Mind you, if the pan-unionist front keep up all their anti-Scottish work, independence is a certainty.
Caledonian Lass, the answer to your first heartfelt paragraph of your post is adequately answered by the last paragraph. Like you, I feel a surge of anger every time I read or hear of yet another spiteful anti-Scotland attack by these two unelected and unelectable old unionist enema bags.
However, when I emerge once again from the darkened room, I realise that they are actually an asset to the independence campaign. As others have already posted, imagine the effect it would have on wavering or undecided voters, if they are made to pay tuition fees, because the Westminster Bullingdon Bully Boys forced it through against the wishes of the elected SNP Scottish Government!
#
2012-02-03 17:56
Quite right, Scottish politicians used to be Keir Hardie. This pair are more Laurel and Hardy. More power to them, they do our work for us!
#
2012-02-03 10:20
I hope so. It would be interesting to learn what the student SNP are doing about this and how they are supported. Would like to see them driving membership on campus. I know they are students but there mut be some sort of discount membership available to them.
#
2012-02-03 10:44
Membership is already available from as low as £1 a month.
From what I could see on the website, you can decide on what you wanted to pay per month for membership, with the minimum being £1.
From what I could see on the website, you can decide on what you wanted to pay per month for membership, with the minimum being £1.
#
2012-02-03 11:15
The student wing of the party are very active, I'm sure that Gail Lythgoe Humza will be right on it
#
2012-02-03 09:41
Numpties both and a perfect reason for Scotland to wave both of them bye bye in 14.
#
2012-02-03 09:41
Can some one remind me, which party were described as the Tartan Tories?
I think I know the real answer. I also remember a labour politician back in May 2011, on their meltdown claiming that the SNP and Tories always united to do the labour party down.O
The sooner we are shot of the lot of them the better. As we used to say when an officer annoyed us, come the revolution... :-)
I think I know the real answer. I also remember a labour politician back in May 2011, on their meltdown claiming that the SNP and Tories always united to do the labour party down.O
The sooner we are shot of the lot of them the better. As we used to say when an officer annoyed us, come the revolution... :-)
#
2012-02-03 09:52
Are they trying to lose the referendum????? Actively attacking one of the SNPs most popular policies in Scotland and nobody would notice how?
If the anti independence parties have some subtle game plan at work here it is completely over my head. In recent weeks we've had every form of attack possible fired from Westminster and the media which has backfired spectacularly. The increase in SNP membership alone, never mind the increase in support for independence and a now wavering Labour vote, is evidence that attack, attack, attack is not working. I'm beginning to get the feeling they just want shot of us you know.
Well, happy to oblige! :0)
If the anti independence parties have some subtle game plan at work here it is completely over my head. In recent weeks we've had every form of attack possible fired from Westminster and the media which has backfired spectacularly. The increase in SNP membership alone, never mind the increase in support for independence and a now wavering Labour vote, is evidence that attack, attack, attack is not working. I'm beginning to get the feeling they just want shot of us you know.
Well, happy to oblige! :0)
#
2012-02-03 09:53
Quote:
These two benefited from a free education.
Shouldn't they be complaining about the unfairness to the rest of the UK students having to pay up to £9,000 per year.
In yesterday's session, peers from all sides gave angry speeches at the "unfairness" of allowing Scottish students to study for free at universities north of the Border, while those from the rest of the UK had to pay up to £9,000 a year.
These two benefited from a free education.
Shouldn't they be complaining about the unfairness to the rest of the UK students having to pay up to £9,000 per year.
#
2012-02-03 10:46
They've benefitted from free everything. They are getting a living for free right now, doing absolutely nothing for Scotland or anyone for that matter.
They bleat on about benefit scroungers, yet these two are simply posh scroungers.
They bleat on about benefit scroungers, yet these two are simply posh scroungers.
#
2012-02-03 09:55
It is not the student’s free education that really concerns me, mind you that is bad enough, but the mention just over two and a half mins into the recording, of “it can not operate in this way in any area of policy” . To me this means he wants the UK Government to control; free prescription, health care in general that is different from England and no doubt a lot more. Thin edge of the wedge comes to mind and if the Independence side can’t make anything out of that then there is no hope.
#
2012-02-03 10:42
Yes scotintun, Completely agree. People have to be warned about this but the problem is getting the info out there.
#
2012-02-03 11:57
Simple answer - use the Facebook link at the bottom of every article....!
This will then put a link to the article on your Facebook page (assuming you have one)!
This will then put a link to the article on your Facebook page (assuming you have one)!
#
2012-02-03 10:12
colin 8652 - Surely no one takes these two fools seriously - actually BBC Scotland does by promoting them at every opportunity to assist their own anti Independence unionist agenda.
I thought John Swinney was making a speech in Edinburgh last night, no mention of it on BBC Scotland this morning. What we did get was BBC Scotland trotting out another story from the unionists, that Scotland can not rely on the oil revenues as the price goes up and down. What has westmonster done with the last 40years of oil revenues apart from waste them? Did I ever hear them say we dont want Scottish oil in case the price drops a few dollars? No bleeping chance.
I thought John Swinney was making a speech in Edinburgh last night, no mention of it on BBC Scotland this morning. What we did get was BBC Scotland trotting out another story from the unionists, that Scotland can not rely on the oil revenues as the price goes up and down. What has westmonster done with the last 40years of oil revenues apart from waste them? Did I ever hear them say we dont want Scottish oil in case the price drops a few dollars? No bleeping chance.
#
2012-02-03 10:18
O/T Lester's tax arrangements mentioned by KwithanE as part of Huhne morals - but, forgive me if I'm wrong, didn't John Birt have exactly the same arrangement when he held the post of DG at her beloved BBC? Seems that the scourge that is IR35 only applies to some and that HMRC can overlook it when it suits them, or orders dictate.
Huhne, the breath is baited, maybe Danny Boy will get moved, for it's a LibDem post
Huhne, the breath is baited, maybe Danny Boy will get moved, for it's a LibDem post
#
2012-02-03 10:19
I see that the telegraph is telling everyone that we could fail in our ability to pay our national debt if we were independent.
#
2012-02-03 12:14
I don't think they've heard of the term odious debt. This would include Trident and other unwanted projects foisted on us by Westminster.
By the way, Scotland was roped into sharing England's massive debt at the time when the Treaty of Union was signed by a bunch of traitorous Scottish 'nobles' - a Treaty which was entered into solely for them to repay their own debts caused by the unfortunate failure of the Darien Scheme.
By the way, Scotland was roped into sharing England's massive debt at the time when the Treaty of Union was signed by a bunch of traitorous Scottish 'nobles' - a Treaty which was entered into solely for them to repay their own debts caused by the unfortunate failure of the Darien Scheme.
#
2012-02-03 16:45
Quoting Caledonian Lass:
Ho hum, not much changes in 300 years.
a bunch of traitorous Scottish 'nobles' - .
Ho hum, not much changes in 300 years.
#
2012-02-03 10:21
I think the Good Lords are actually playing a complicated drinking game, where they add stupid amendments to the Scotland Bill and every time one of them gets a mention in the media the other one has to drink a bottle of Buckfast.
"Ooh, ohh, I've got one! I'm going to propose an amendment that does nothing but insert the word "devolved" in between the word "the" and the phrase "Scottish government" wherever they occur. Hic"
"Hahaaaaaaa, good one, Foulksie! That'll get us in the Herald for sure."
"Ooh, ohh, I've got one! I'm going to propose an amendment that does nothing but insert the word "devolved" in between the word "the" and the phrase "Scottish government" wherever they occur. Hic"
"Hahaaaaaaa, good one, Foulksie! That'll get us in the Herald for sure."
#
2012-02-03 10:28
We may mock these idiots, but the fact is , verytime they open their gobs, they get air time on the bias BBC, without balance
It may work in favour of the yes campaign, but with this drip drip drip from the BBC, will not provide a balance
Whats needed is pointing out to people like students that if their Lordships have their way they end up paying in the end. That may sharpen the student focus
It may work in favour of the yes campaign, but with this drip drip drip from the BBC, will not provide a balance
Whats needed is pointing out to people like students that if their Lordships have their way they end up paying in the end. That may sharpen the student focus
#
2012-02-03 10:28
They are such a popular pair in Scotland ,one can't help but wonder what effect their considered opinions will have!
#
2012-02-03 10:30
The shenanigans of the unelected Lords and their malfeasance will come back to haunt them big time. As for the BBC well, someone is about to take them to task and they WILL listen !.
#
2012-02-03 10:35
Quoting UpSpake:
Tell me more ..Who? When?
The shenanigans of the unelected Lords and their malfeasance will come back to haunt them big time. As for the BBC well, someone is about to take them to task and they WILL listen !.
Tell me more ..Who? When?
#
2012-02-03 10:41
Upspake
Please explain, you seem to be in possession of some juicy knowledge, please share with us if possible
Please explain, you seem to be in possession of some juicy knowledge, please share with us if possible
#
2012-02-03 11:12
If that is the case, upspake, then it is not before time.
If anybody takes the BBC to task over their overt political bias, they will win my thanks
If anybody takes the BBC to task over their overt political bias, they will win my thanks
#
2012-02-03 10:34
This shows where this pair's loyalties lie. They are anti-Scottish. Can you imagine other English Lords fighting to make England pay for the education of someone from Africa. Post independence this pair can be stripped of their "scottish" lordships and occupy a nice spot in the Scottish history books for the next few hundred years. Anyone remember Benedict Arnold?
#
2012-02-03 10:37
What a fantastic gift these people are to the Yes campaign. They sit in their unelected ivory tower and scheme and plot like the worst characters from a Dan Brown novel. They represent everything that is rotten in the very core of Westminster.
Education is free in Scotland, if other UK students are to study for free in Scotland will the courtesy be extended to Scottish students in the UK or will they still be charged? Of course they will be charged - the gruesome twosome want their cake and eat it.
No one is forcing UK students to come to Scotland yet applications from the rest of the UK held up better here than in the rest of the UK. The ermine clad vileness are not championing UK students (who they would cheerfully gut and fillet for every penny) but are trying to ferment anti-Scottish sentiment in the rest of the UK.
Did Foulkes ever claim to be a socialist?
Education is free in Scotland, if other UK students are to study for free in Scotland will the courtesy be extended to Scottish students in the UK or will they still be charged? Of course they will be charged - the gruesome twosome want their cake and eat it.
No one is forcing UK students to come to Scotland yet applications from the rest of the UK held up better here than in the rest of the UK. The ermine clad vileness are not championing UK students (who they would cheerfully gut and fillet for every penny) but are trying to ferment anti-Scottish sentiment in the rest of the UK.
Did Foulkes ever claim to be a socialist?
#
2012-02-03 11:10
Quoting Jim1320:
I'm not sure if anybody in the Labour party claim to be a socialist anymore.
Did Foulkes ever claim to be a socialist?
I'm not sure if anybody in the Labour party claim to be a socialist anymore.
#
2012-02-03 11:14
Dunno. But he certainly claimed to be anti-nuclear. I remember him at a protest rally on the site of the proposed Torness power station before it was built, massaging the left-wing image he was trying to promote.
#
2012-02-03 10:38
Just remind please, what sort of University education did this pair enjoy? I think that they need to opologise to the young people resident in England that are now expected to go to university and rack up tens of thousands of pounds to get an education. How will this generation ever be able to get on the housing ladder once in work with very large debts and no way of being able to save for a deposit on a home.
Their idea of paying for education stinks.
Their idea of paying for education stinks.
#
2012-02-03 10:39
The unelected & unelectable lords only expose their utter ignorance of all three subjects they have chosen as the big stick to beat the Scottish Government, and electorate, over the head. The first is their obvious inability to understand the workings of Barnett's Formula. This, in turn, proves they lack the mental capacity to understand the Wastemonster's system of financing the four United Kingdom countries. The truth of both these matters is that Lord Barnett's Formula was a rather inept effort to make the, overgenerous, uncapped funding of England more even in relation to the capped block grants Wastemonster doles out to the other three United Kingdom countries. Barnett's Formula, rather than equalising that funding, falls some considerable way short of achieving its avowed goals. Thus, both the Barnett Formula and the fact that England is not funded by block grant and, being funded by the very organ that doles out the block grants is fatally flawed. It's that old, daft, “West Lothian Question”, again.
This, their Lordship’s ignorance of the funding issues, leads them in turn to the crass ignorance of the Scottish Government's methods of funding the Scottish Universities and why English students do not get free University fees. It was Wastemonster's reduction in the total block grant directly due to the Scottish Government's decision to have free University education for all that causes English residents who come to Scottish Universities to be charged for that privilege. As Wastemonster had already clawed back that portion of the Scottish block grant formerly given for education – the proverbial, “Double Whammy”, meant Wastemonster had the Barnett allocation in its purse but were still expecting the Scots to fund other UK residents. Their Lordships seem unaware that this is so. Once more they expose their ignorance of the facts. The other exposure of their Lordship's ignorance is even more basic. The claim the imposition of fees upon students from other UK countries, "It's about upsetting the neighbours”, is clearly based upon their utter ignorance of the historic Scottish importance given to free education for all. Scotland had the first nationwide, “Education Act”, in the World. (Ancient Troy was more a city than a country), but had an Education act. The first Scottish Education Act, 1496. proves beyond doubt that free education for all is part of Scottish Culture.
There is, though, an alternative explanation for their Lordship's attacks upon Scotland. Could it be Their Lordships really do know the real facts but are just being Anti-Scottish, and telling porkies? Neither explanation reflects well upon either them or the unelected, subsidy junkies that is, “The House of Lords or indeed the Dependency Britnat Parties.
This, their Lordship’s ignorance of the funding issues, leads them in turn to the crass ignorance of the Scottish Government's methods of funding the Scottish Universities and why English students do not get free University fees. It was Wastemonster's reduction in the total block grant directly due to the Scottish Government's decision to have free University education for all that causes English residents who come to Scottish Universities to be charged for that privilege. As Wastemonster had already clawed back that portion of the Scottish block grant formerly given for education – the proverbial, “Double Whammy”, meant Wastemonster had the Barnett allocation in its purse but were still expecting the Scots to fund other UK residents. Their Lordships seem unaware that this is so. Once more they expose their ignorance of the facts. The other exposure of their Lordship's ignorance is even more basic. The claim the imposition of fees upon students from other UK countries, "It's about upsetting the neighbours”, is clearly based upon their utter ignorance of the historic Scottish importance given to free education for all. Scotland had the first nationwide, “Education Act”, in the World. (Ancient Troy was more a city than a country), but had an Education act. The first Scottish Education Act, 1496. proves beyond doubt that free education for all is part of Scottish Culture.
There is, though, an alternative explanation for their Lordship's attacks upon Scotland. Could it be Their Lordships really do know the real facts but are just being Anti-Scottish, and telling porkies? Neither explanation reflects well upon either them or the unelected, subsidy junkies that is, “The House of Lords or indeed the Dependency Britnat Parties.
#
2012-02-03 11:00
Very well put Auld Bob.
I have a suspicion it is likely to be your alternative explanation.
I have a suspicion it is likely to be your alternative explanation.
#
2012-02-03 12:01
Do feel free to add any of the Lords to this Guardian thread.
guardian.co.uk/.../...
I've named Foulkes, Forsyth, Caithness and McConnell but I'm sure you can think of more.
guardian.co.uk/.../...
I've named Foulkes, Forsyth, Caithness and McConnell but I'm sure you can think of more.
#
2012-02-03 10:40
So who do we have in the NO camp now?
Tories
Labour
Lib-dem
BNP
Orange Order
BBC
Printed Media
Tories
Labour
Lib-dem
BNP
Orange Order
BBC
Printed Media
#
2012-02-03 14:44
Oh No. Please don't mention her.
I was beginning to think that we had achieved a Mone-free day.
I was beginning to think that we had achieved a Mone-free day.
#
2012-02-03 10:44
This is great, this is brilliant !
I hope the BBC pick this one up and runs with it for the next two years.
Do I see a common denominator here?
For the last three weeks it has been Scottish Lords who have been on the attack in every way that they can think of.
I wonder why that could be?
Could it possibly be because they love Scotland and its people so much that they just can't bear to see their children suffer by not paying tuition fees? No, I dont think its that one....
Could it be that they all realise that if Scotland goes independent that they'll be out on their ears?
Yes - that's definitely the one.
Get back to work peeps. Floating voters to speak to. Ignore these blow hards who have nothing but hot air.
They're doing a damn good job for us at the moment anyway. DevoMax this, DevoMax that....great, let's hope the BBC give them their own chat show on telly. Think of the boost to SNP membership if that happened.
I'm Scottish not British.
I hope the BBC pick this one up and runs with it for the next two years.
Do I see a common denominator here?
For the last three weeks it has been Scottish Lords who have been on the attack in every way that they can think of.
I wonder why that could be?
Could it possibly be because they love Scotland and its people so much that they just can't bear to see their children suffer by not paying tuition fees? No, I dont think its that one....
Could it be that they all realise that if Scotland goes independent that they'll be out on their ears?
Yes - that's definitely the one.
Get back to work peeps. Floating voters to speak to. Ignore these blow hards who have nothing but hot air.
They're doing a damn good job for us at the moment anyway. DevoMax this, DevoMax that....great, let's hope the BBC give them their own chat show on telly. Think of the boost to SNP membership if that happened.
I'm Scottish not British.
#
2012-02-03 10:55
Quoting Saltire Groppenslosh:
I'm Independent Scottish and British. The English are not going to steal my place in the British Isles from me.
What I'm not, though, is a willing citizen of a United Kingdom Parliament.
I'm Scottish not British.
I'm Independent Scottish and British. The English are not going to steal my place in the British Isles from me.
What I'm not, though, is a willing citizen of a United Kingdom Parliament.
#
2012-02-03 11:05
I'm Scottish not British. We are just Scottish and no one is going to steal my Scottishness from me and supplant a colonial british identity. Lets agree to respect each others viewpoint? Agree we have a different view and work for the common goal?
#
2012-02-03 11:12
Quoting Islegard:
Get real. Britain is a gepgraphic term for a bit of land sticking out of the water. It has NOTHING to do with the way that bit of land is goverened. You are brainwashed by them into believing Britain and United Kingdom are the same thing as, "The Parliament of the United Kingdom". We Scots live on this landmass that is Britain. In fact we were here long before the Anglo Sazons came after the Romans left.
And we are just Scottish and no one is going to steal my Scottishness from me and supplant a colonial british identity. Lets agree to respect each others viewpoint? Agree we have a different view and work for the common goal?
Get real. Britain is a gepgraphic term for a bit of land sticking out of the water. It has NOTHING to do with the way that bit of land is goverened. You are brainwashed by them into believing Britain and United Kingdom are the same thing as, "The Parliament of the United Kingdom". We Scots live on this landmass that is Britain. In fact we were here long before the Anglo Sazons came after the Romans left.
#
2012-02-03 11:23
Look I'm not going to get into a silly argument over this yet again! Can you not be willing to allow other people the right to not call themselves British or choose to use Britain, Great Britain, British Isles. We go around and around on this forever.
Britain is a geographic term that was invented you can call a piece of land anything you like. If you get enough people to agree with you most people will accept the name. It is however fluid and not forever. Many names for land masses have come and gone.
Britain was used by the Romans to describe England and Wales while Scotland was Caledonia can you reference otherwise. Pre-1707 Scotland never used the terms British, Britain, Great Britain, British Isles. Ireland chose to remove itself from the term British Isles. Scotland can choose to not agree to call itself part of the Island of Great Britain if enough people decide they don't want to use that name. There are many examples of different names being used for the same land mass by different nationalities.
Anyway allow some of us our right to not be british as we respect your right to call yourself that. I'm not going to reply to this argument any further.
Britain is a geographic term that was invented you can call a piece of land anything you like. If you get enough people to agree with you most people will accept the name. It is however fluid and not forever. Many names for land masses have come and gone.
Britain was used by the Romans to describe England and Wales while Scotland was Caledonia can you reference otherwise. Pre-1707 Scotland never used the terms British, Britain, Great Britain, British Isles. Ireland chose to remove itself from the term British Isles. Scotland can choose to not agree to call itself part of the Island of Great Britain if enough people decide they don't want to use that name. There are many examples of different names being used for the same land mass by different nationalities.
Anyway allow some of us our right to not be british as we respect your right to call yourself that. I'm not going to reply to this argument any further.
#
2012-02-03 11:34
Now boys - play nice haha
Auld Bob - What you have here is confusion.
If you go round telling folk "I'm British" and then telling them in a round about way to vote for independence, they'll get confused.
I absolutely see where you're coming from on this. I wont be using that one myself as the Unionist aren't as bright as you and label themselves as British and not UKish. I would like verbally to create some clear space in this. So I'll stay with the "I'm Scottish not British" slogan until we are independent, then we can argue for that one no problem.
Auld Bob - What you have here is confusion.
If you go round telling folk "I'm British" and then telling them in a round about way to vote for independence, they'll get confused.
I absolutely see where you're coming from on this. I wont be using that one myself as the Unionist aren't as bright as you and label themselves as British and not UKish. I would like verbally to create some clear space in this. So I'll stay with the "I'm Scottish not British" slogan until we are independent, then we can argue for that one no problem.
#
2012-02-03 11:21
Sorry, Bob, but the term British Isles has always stuck in my throat. The bulk of what is now Scotland was never British (i.e. Brythonic in language). It was Pictish and then Gaelic and Norse-speaking. So, ancient Britons are irrelevant here, Roman Britain was further south, and modern Britain is the nightmare we're trying to wake up from. You can keep your 'Britishness' if you like. But it's not for me. Scottish not British suits me fine.
#
2012-02-03 13:28
Officially we are British citizens of the political entity, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Sub-divided into the 4 countries of Scotland, England, Wales and N. Ireland.
Geographically we live on a group of islands at the edge of the north Atlantic called the British Isles.
Whether we like it or not that is the current situation at the beginning of the 21st century.
How we got here as we all know fully well is history.
What we do about it is up to us.
Geographically we live on a group of islands at the edge of the north Atlantic called the British Isles.
Whether we like it or not that is the current situation at the beginning of the 21st century.
How we got here as we all know fully well is history.
What we do about it is up to us.
#
2012-02-03 14:45
Quoting Exile:
Sorry I had to rush off and I'll soon be off again. Anyway, language is not the problem and there is much ambiguity about the early history that recent discoveries has debunked. First of all the original idea was that the early settlers after the ice age came across the channel and up through the land is utter rot. Furthermore, the land was far more difficult to navigate than were the seas and waterways – the real superhighways back then. The settlers stayed mainly around the shores. There was no North Sea and where it is now was a vast fertile low lying plain. There was a rocky ridge that stopped the icy polar waters entering what they now call Doggerland. Then an catastrophic even happened and the rocky ridge fractured and the polar waters entered the plain and formed the North Sea. The people that lived on Doggerland made their way to the higher ground that is now Britain. These were the early Hunter/gatherers. Who DID actually have settlements though earlier beliefs were that they had not.
nextnature.net/.../...
Here are a few clues. A building site in Inverness unearthed a thin layer of fine white sand. It carbon dated to the time of the Icy Ridge fracture, (The fracture was near where HMS Hood was sank in WWII). That sand indicated a brief, short lived, influx of the sea water. Earliest detected signs of settlers were discovered in a dig at Howick in what is now Northumberland. Just 25 miles from Doggerland. Now remember the land was covered in dense forest and the waterways were the highways. Genetic testing throughout the mainland of Britain prove that the vast majority of every UK country are descended from those first ancient Britons. As to the tale of the Scots being Irish forget it. In fact there were many, many tribes. Remember, though that the superhighways were the seas. So the peoples around those seas interacted much more than they did by the dense forest covered land. The tribes on either side of the Irish Sea were one and the same people. In modern Britain the the main differences between the peoples are not genetic, they are cultural. The Scots were never really defeated though the did lose many battles and thus were never really influence to the same degree as the Southern Britons. Neither the Romans, Norsemen, Vikings, Angles Saxons Jutes, et.al. Became our rulers as they did further south. The closest to doing that were the Norman Knights like De Brus and Wallace and by that time we were Scotland. The Southerons, though, were treated as serfs, or whatever by the Romans, who kept themselves aloof as elite leaders. They did not interbreed much. When the Romans left the Southerons had been left without any track record of either running a country or defending themselves. They offered free land to the Anglo Saxon tribes to come and protect them. These incomers soon also took over running the country. A country that would become Angleland, (England). However, genetics proves there is less than 5% of the Southerons who are actually Anglo Saxon. These too also became an elite governing body who interbred little.
Sorry, Bob, but the term British Isles has always stuck in my throat.
Sorry I had to rush off and I'll soon be off again. Anyway, language is not the problem and there is much ambiguity about the early history that recent discoveries has debunked. First of all the original idea was that the early settlers after the ice age came across the channel and up through the land is utter rot. Furthermore, the land was far more difficult to navigate than were the seas and waterways – the real superhighways back then. The settlers stayed mainly around the shores. There was no North Sea and where it is now was a vast fertile low lying plain. There was a rocky ridge that stopped the icy polar waters entering what they now call Doggerland. Then an catastrophic even happened and the rocky ridge fractured and the polar waters entered the plain and formed the North Sea. The people that lived on Doggerland made their way to the higher ground that is now Britain. These were the early Hunter/gatherers. Who DID actually have settlements though earlier beliefs were that they had not.
nextnature.net/.../...
Here are a few clues. A building site in Inverness unearthed a thin layer of fine white sand. It carbon dated to the time of the Icy Ridge fracture, (The fracture was near where HMS Hood was sank in WWII). That sand indicated a brief, short lived, influx of the sea water. Earliest detected signs of settlers were discovered in a dig at Howick in what is now Northumberland. Just 25 miles from Doggerland. Now remember the land was covered in dense forest and the waterways were the highways. Genetic testing throughout the mainland of Britain prove that the vast majority of every UK country are descended from those first ancient Britons. As to the tale of the Scots being Irish forget it. In fact there were many, many tribes. Remember, though that the superhighways were the seas. So the peoples around those seas interacted much more than they did by the dense forest covered land. The tribes on either side of the Irish Sea were one and the same people. In modern Britain the the main differences between the peoples are not genetic, they are cultural. The Scots were never really defeated though the did lose many battles and thus were never really influence to the same degree as the Southern Britons. Neither the Romans, Norsemen, Vikings, Angles Saxons Jutes, et.al. Became our rulers as they did further south. The closest to doing that were the Norman Knights like De Brus and Wallace and by that time we were Scotland. The Southerons, though, were treated as serfs, or whatever by the Romans, who kept themselves aloof as elite leaders. They did not interbreed much. When the Romans left the Southerons had been left without any track record of either running a country or defending themselves. They offered free land to the Anglo Saxon tribes to come and protect them. These incomers soon also took over running the country. A country that would become Angleland, (England). However, genetics proves there is less than 5% of the Southerons who are actually Anglo Saxon. These too also became an elite governing body who interbred little.
#
2012-02-03 15:20
Wow AuldBob, you're a mine of information and I salute you. If that's you in a hurry to go out I am most impressed! I especially like the last line:
'These too also became an elite governing body who interbred little.'
No change there then!
I think everyone should use whatever nationality they feel most at home in, to be honest. I prefer Scottish, although I'm willing to be convinced that in geological terms I'm British - but to me the word has been tainted by association over the years and I don't like it.
(Sorry, didn't meant drag out that argument - I really just wanted to thank AuldBob as he sounds like a great chap to know. I'm going to put him on my list of dinner party guests, alongside David Attenborough and Lesley Riddoch.)
'These too also became an elite governing body who interbred little.'
No change there then!
I think everyone should use whatever nationality they feel most at home in, to be honest. I prefer Scottish, although I'm willing to be convinced that in geological terms I'm British - but to me the word has been tainted by association over the years and I don't like it.
(Sorry, didn't meant drag out that argument - I really just wanted to thank AuldBob as he sounds like a great chap to know. I'm going to put him on my list of dinner party guests, alongside David Attenborough and Lesley Riddoch.)
#
2012-02-03 19:40
Hi Bob, I'm a professional archaeologist and one of my interests is the genetics of the worlds populations I happen to believe that to know where you are going you have to know where you come from. I am no expert but there are some very good books on the subject that I would recommend 'The Origins of the British' by Steven Oppenheimer is very good as is 'The Scots A genetic Journey' by Alistair Moffat and James f. Wilson, I don't know if you have them already. My understanding is that we are all worldwide of African descent and all carry the African gene. In Europe fascinatingly we also carry between 1 and 4% of the Neanderthal gene, however we are still unsure how this branch of our species died out and crucially why. With regards to the British Isles I understand that there is in effect an east/west split with most west coasters descended from people that survived in an ice age refuge in what is now the Basque country and most east coasters descended from people who survived in a refuge in what is the current day Ukraine. Also and this really intreagues me is that although all indigenous British women can trace their genetics back to the Mesolithic peoples that populated the land mass at the end of the last glacial maximum, not one male can, all males are decended from Neolithic farmers who brought new life styles, knowledge and foodstuffs roundabout 4000BC (it is also a contention that they brought the Gaelic language a kind of lingua franca of the period). This is a rapidly developing area of study and it is a while since I caught up so I may well be wrong. Edinburgh Uni are running a project just now to create a genetic database of Scottish males, I believe the costs have come down and for £125 (please don't quote me, I'm not sure) they will study a sample of your spit and provide you with your breakdown. With regards your site in Inverness it was 112 Castle Street please see link ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/arch-352-1/.../115_089_103.pdf and the innundation was caused by a massive tsunami caused by what is called the Storrega landslip roughly dated to 6100BC. It would have been a terrifying experience for our ancestors. Also in what is now Scotland we also have a Mesolithic house discoverd at East Barns, broadly contemorary with Howick. You are absolutely right about the Scots and the Irish origin myth in my opinion however we still need finer resolution into what just what was going on especially again in my opinion with regard to the tribe settled in what is now southern Northern Ireland called Cruithne (Gaelic for Pict) during the Dark Ages.
#
2012-02-03 11:04
Yip. they are just vessels of hot air. The Scottish peers in the house of Lords, have shown themselves clearly to be the 'Scottish peer self preservation society', regardless of the detrimental effects to Scotland.
When I was young, people in Scotland mocked the Lords as a bunch of old duffers, and now in 2012, they still do. Cloying self preserving nobodies, who cannot get elected, and play pretendy politics in the house of Lords.
A waste of space, every last one of them.
When I was young, people in Scotland mocked the Lords as a bunch of old duffers, and now in 2012, they still do. Cloying self preserving nobodies, who cannot get elected, and play pretendy politics in the house of Lords.
A waste of space, every last one of them.
#
2012-02-03 10:45
This pair of old codgers who have abandoned Scotland for the lure of the ermine, are frankly worthless duds. If they do attempt to subvert the Scottish Government's policy on tuition fees and interfere in the referendum process they will guarantee a yes vote. Forsyth, as I recall was a hated tory during the T years and he thinks anyone is going to take him seriously now.
Windbags the pair of them.
Windbags the pair of them.
#
2012-02-03 10:50
So, let's be clear here, George Foulkes is from the Labour party.
I have no doubt he had the backing of the Labour party in doing this.
The amendment which Labour's George foulkes tabled was worded thus;
After Clause 14
LORD FOULKES OF CUMNOCK (Labour)
22 Insert the following new Clause—
“Variation of student fees according to origin of British students
In Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the 1998 Act, under Head L (miscellaneous) at the end insert—
“L8. Variation of student fees according to origin of British students
The setting of student fees for students from England, Northern Ireland or Wales studying at Scottish universities at rates different from those for students from Scotland studying at Scottish universities.
Interpretation
“Fees” has the meaning given by section 41 of the Higher Education Act 2004.””
To explain, what this clause would mean, would be that the power which the Scottish Parliament has at present to set University funding and University tuition fees would be removed from the Scottish Parliament and given to Westminster in London. It absolutely beggars belief that this motion was put forward by the Labour party.
The only consequence of such a change would be the London Tory Government being given the power to set tuition fees in Scotland. THIS WOULD BE AN END TO FREE TUITION FEES IN SCOTLAND.
So now it is clear for all to see just exactly what the policy of the Labour party is towards tuition fees in Scotland. They would abolish them.
Now, there is an important point here regarding democracy. In the May 2011 election for the Scottish Parliament, at which the SNP were returned to power with a massive democratic mandate from the people of Scotland, they made their intentions VERY CLEAR.
On page 25 of their election manifesto, on the very first line, the following clear, and unequivocal statement is made;
Quote ;
"The SNP believes Scottish Higher Education should be free."
The Scottish Government have a clear democratic mandate to pursue their policy of NO tuition fees for Scottish domiciled students. What the Labour party were attempting last night in the house of Lords, with the help of their Tory bestest friend, Michael Forsyth, was in my mind nothing short of the gerrymandering of the democratic process.
These unelected and unelectable members of the Labour and Tory parties in the undemocratic and unelected house of Lords, last night demonstrated for all in Scotland to see, what utter contempt they have for democracy, and the cleat wishes of the Scottish electorate.
Let's be clear, the Labour party policy is now to end Free tuition fees for Scottish students. Does Lamont and her shrinking Labour coterie in Scotland really, really think that will win them votes in Scotland???? I mean seriously, what planet are they on.
I can only say, thank goodness the SNP have nothing to do with the undemocratic nest of vipers and traitors called the house of Lords. The house of Lords is the complete opposite of the notion of progressive governance, and the SNP should have nothing to do with it.
I have no doubt he had the backing of the Labour party in doing this.
The amendment which Labour's George foulkes tabled was worded thus;
After Clause 14
LORD FOULKES OF CUMNOCK (Labour)
22 Insert the following new Clause—
“Variation of student fees according to origin of British students
In Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the 1998 Act, under Head L (miscellaneous) at the end insert—
“L8. Variation of student fees according to origin of British students
The setting of student fees for students from England, Northern Ireland or Wales studying at Scottish universities at rates different from those for students from Scotland studying at Scottish universities.
Interpretation
“Fees” has the meaning given by section 41 of the Higher Education Act 2004.””
To explain, what this clause would mean, would be that the power which the Scottish Parliament has at present to set University funding and University tuition fees would be removed from the Scottish Parliament and given to Westminster in London. It absolutely beggars belief that this motion was put forward by the Labour party.
The only consequence of such a change would be the London Tory Government being given the power to set tuition fees in Scotland. THIS WOULD BE AN END TO FREE TUITION FEES IN SCOTLAND.
So now it is clear for all to see just exactly what the policy of the Labour party is towards tuition fees in Scotland. They would abolish them.
Now, there is an important point here regarding democracy. In the May 2011 election for the Scottish Parliament, at which the SNP were returned to power with a massive democratic mandate from the people of Scotland, they made their intentions VERY CLEAR.
On page 25 of their election manifesto, on the very first line, the following clear, and unequivocal statement is made;
Quote ;
"The SNP believes Scottish Higher Education should be free."
The Scottish Government have a clear democratic mandate to pursue their policy of NO tuition fees for Scottish domiciled students. What the Labour party were attempting last night in the house of Lords, with the help of their Tory bestest friend, Michael Forsyth, was in my mind nothing short of the gerrymandering of the democratic process.
These unelected and unelectable members of the Labour and Tory parties in the undemocratic and unelected house of Lords, last night demonstrated for all in Scotland to see, what utter contempt they have for democracy, and the cleat wishes of the Scottish electorate.
Let's be clear, the Labour party policy is now to end Free tuition fees for Scottish students. Does Lamont and her shrinking Labour coterie in Scotland really, really think that will win them votes in Scotland???? I mean seriously, what planet are they on.
I can only say, thank goodness the SNP have nothing to do with the undemocratic nest of vipers and traitors called the house of Lords. The house of Lords is the complete opposite of the notion of progressive governance, and the SNP should have nothing to do with it.
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2012-02-03 10:59
Oh and another point, the article seems in my mind to be making some kind of point, perhaps in trying to justify the SNP entering the House of Lords, it says, Quote
"No peers spoke in support of the Scottish Government's position. There are no SNP members of the House of Lords, in 2005 the party adopted a policy of refusing peerages as it believes the system to be undemocratic and unfair."
The SNP if they ever entered the Lords would be subject to ridicule the likes of which they have never experience before. The house of Lords is the epitome of the undemocratic archaic 'ruling class', it has nothing to do with democracy. I am glad the SNP take no seats in that place.
If the SNP ever took up a seat in the house of Lords, then in my mind they will have reduced themselves and their stated principles to be worthless. They would be a laughing stock, and would at a stroke have legitimised London rule.
The BBC would run with it for weeks.
"No peers spoke in support of the Scottish Government's position. There are no SNP members of the House of Lords, in 2005 the party adopted a policy of refusing peerages as it believes the system to be undemocratic and unfair."
The SNP if they ever entered the Lords would be subject to ridicule the likes of which they have never experience before. The house of Lords is the epitome of the undemocratic archaic 'ruling class', it has nothing to do with democracy. I am glad the SNP take no seats in that place.
If the SNP ever took up a seat in the house of Lords, then in my mind they will have reduced themselves and their stated principles to be worthless. They would be a laughing stock, and would at a stroke have legitimised London rule.
The BBC would run with it for weeks.
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2012-02-03 11:44
I also think it would damage the credibility of the SNP talking about independence.
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2012-02-03 18:26
Quoting Exile:
Not only the BBC would "run" with it, I'd run with it too - right out of the party! I'd cancel my membership, cancel my direct debit subscription and cut up my membership card. If my SNP party send even ONE of their number to that unelected and unelectable House of the Living Dead, I would be outraged and feel they had betrayed their democratic principle of social democracy.
I would feel as Jimmy Reid did when asked why he had left the Labour Party to join the SNP, and he replied, "I didn't leave the Labour Party, the Labour Party left me!"
"The BBC would run with it for weeks."
Years, I reckon, Robert. Or for ever more.
Not only the BBC would "run" with it, I'd run with it too - right out of the party! I'd cancel my membership, cancel my direct debit subscription and cut up my membership card. If my SNP party send even ONE of their number to that unelected and unelectable House of the Living Dead, I would be outraged and feel they had betrayed their democratic principle of social democracy.
I would feel as Jimmy Reid did when asked why he had left the Labour Party to join the SNP, and he replied, "I didn't leave the Labour Party, the Labour Party left me!"
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2012-02-03 11:00
Hot off the press the latest on the power stripping Scotland Bill. A quick scan looked though part of it was relating to powers over air guns. However I just had a quick look and place a link for everyones consideration. :)
It can be viewed here:-
publications.parliament.uk/.../...
It can be viewed here:-
publications.parliament.uk/.../...
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2012-02-03 11:12
I near fell asleep half way through, but I liked this bit -
Viscount Slim: My Lords, in a past life, I, with others, was able to experiment at some length with the possible advantage of an air gun for military use. On the market at the moment there are air guns that are lethal and really dangerous. There are air guns that some people say are less dangerous but, in the wrong hands, all air guns kill or maim to such an extent that you might perhaps wish you were dead. Has not the noble Earl, Lord Shrewsbury, put his finger on it? There seems to be a muddle. If you let the civil servants of both nations loose, you will have a much bigger muddle; you will have a catastrophe. Surely the noble Earl is right that before ruling on this, the proper government officials of both nations-I say nations now because everyone wants to be different
Maybe the penny's dropping at last. :0)
Viscount Slim: My Lords, in a past life, I, with others, was able to experiment at some length with the possible advantage of an air gun for military use. On the market at the moment there are air guns that are lethal and really dangerous. There are air guns that some people say are less dangerous but, in the wrong hands, all air guns kill or maim to such an extent that you might perhaps wish you were dead. Has not the noble Earl, Lord Shrewsbury, put his finger on it? There seems to be a muddle. If you let the civil servants of both nations loose, you will have a much bigger muddle; you will have a catastrophe. Surely the noble Earl is right that before ruling on this, the proper government officials of both nations-I say nations now because everyone wants to be different
Maybe the penny's dropping at last. :0)
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2012-02-03 11:06
I've explained, further upthread, why the old hasbeens have it wrong. It is pointless just calling them names. The answer is to know the real facts and tell it how it is. Obviously their Lairdships, and the other Britnats, are either totally ignorant or they do know and assume we are too stupid to understand the truth. So, let's all educate ourselves to the real facts and shoot down the false claims. The truth is that Wastemonster cut the Scottish Block grant because the SG were giving free University fees. That means they withdrew the Barnett funding and THEY kept the funds for student fees. Then they complain because they want the rest of the UK to be subsidised out of the Scottish Block grant - yet they are already being subsidised because Wastemonster has kept the funds from the block grant. Explain that to folks in a way they can understand and the Britnats have lost the argument.
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2012-02-03 11:12
Can you give a bit more info on the deliberate cutting of the block grant over education. I didn't know this. Can you give me a link to information?
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2012-02-03 11:24
Quoting Islegard:
Sorry I have no record of the actual paper but I'm sure it will be among the reports on the Scottish Government's webpages. I'm just about to stop cybernattering as I have to go get my prescriptions seen to, pick up my pension and get some food in. However, This subject has been thrashed out several times in Holyrood and there have been several references to the subject on the net. I'll be back later.
Can you give a bit more info on the deliberate cutting of the block grant over education. I didn't know this. Can you give me a link to information?
Sorry I have no record of the actual paper but I'm sure it will be among the reports on the Scottish Government's webpages. I'm just about to stop cybernattering as I have to go get my prescriptions seen to, pick up my pension and get some food in. However, This subject has been thrashed out several times in Holyrood and there have been several references to the subject on the net. I'll be back later.
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2012-02-03 11:30
A very, very quick search came up with this - I don't have time to read it but it may help.
scottish.parliament.uk/.../...
scottish.parliament.uk/.../...
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2012-02-03 12:43
Okay Doke thanks for that. I notice in the link that opposition parties in Scotland still refuse to call the Scottish Government by their name instead using Scottish Executive. What an uninspiring unambitious shower. I did have other words at hand but then my post would be removed!
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2012-02-03 11:46
Are you not just using the reduction of the block grant in this particular way because I don't remember anything about it being reduced in line with the cost to Scotland of paying for the students tuition fees?
If what you are saying is correct then that could be a fantastic argument to back up any argument for independence.
Any references you can give here would be gratefully received.
If what you are saying is correct then that could be a fantastic argument to back up any argument for independence.
Any references you can give here would be gratefully received.
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2012-02-03 12:06
was it not something about the cost to England was lowered when they raised the fees so there was resultant lowering of the Barnett consequential paid to Scotland?
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2012-02-03 21:03
Quoting snowthistle:
Sorry Guys & Gals I had a medical appointment. Anyway, I remeber John Swinney having a bit of a barney over the issue and have seen several referencies about it since. It may well have been Barnett Consequentials because, if Wastemonster removes English funding and funds higher educationby student fees they will then remove that sum from the \block grant. That may well be the row I remember in the Debating Chamber at Holyrood. The effect is that the Block Grant is reduced and Swinney must then find the funding for the free funding from another part of the budget.
was it not something about the cost to England was lowered when they raised the fees so there was resultant lowering of the Barnett consequential paid to Scotland?
Sorry Guys & Gals I had a medical appointment. Anyway, I remeber John Swinney having a bit of a barney over the issue and have seen several referencies about it since. It may well have been Barnett Consequentials because, if Wastemonster removes English funding and funds higher educationby student fees they will then remove that sum from the \block grant. That may well be the row I remember in the Debating Chamber at Holyrood. The effect is that the Block Grant is reduced and Swinney must then find the funding for the free funding from another part of the budget.
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2012-02-03 11:13
Presumably they may also consider the period in the 1990's when less than 1% of people who attended Edinburgh University were Scottish leading to a policy of positive discriminationi n their deliberations
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2012-02-03 11:31
But surely the idea that English students "pay" this 9,000 is not quite correct - don't they get a loan and only actually "pay" when their income reaches a certain level? And noone mentions Welsh students, subsidised by their government thorughout the UK.
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2012-02-03 11:42
Indeed ALL the devolved legislatures have similar schemes. In Wales Welsh students pay heavily subsidised fees, which are not available to those coming from England. I believe a similar scheme is in place in N.Ireland.
Westminster and the BBC seems unconcerned by them, it is only Scotland they bother about - presumably because they don't like the SNP.
Westminster and the BBC seems unconcerned by them, it is only Scotland they bother about - presumably because they don't like the SNP.
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2012-02-03 11:35
O/T Interesting article from Allan Trench about corporation tax, NI and the failure of the UK government to produce transparent figures
.../corporation-tax-devolution-for-northern-ireland-does-anyone-care-how-much-corporation-tax-is-generated-there
.../corporation-tax-devolution-for-northern-ireland-does-anyone-care-how-much-corporation-tax-is-generated-there
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2012-02-03 11:35
On the phone testerday
Nationality Please?
Scottish
Do you mind if I put down British?
Yes I do mind I'm Scottish I've just stated that
OK That's fine
A small victory I think
Nationality Please?
Scottish
Do you mind if I put down British?
Yes I do mind I'm Scottish I've just stated that
OK That's fine
A small victory I think
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2012-02-03 11:37
Oh! Dear! If they charge the ones who have peverted the course of justice the whole muckle lot of them are going down too.
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2012-02-03 11:46
Suspect the timing of Huhne case, is as Alec said all about public distraction and the action goes hand in hand with the fall of Mr Goodwin. Press manipulation. They are desperate to prove that they are not ALL corrupt.
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2012-02-03 11:57
What they should do is charge everybody tuition fees THEN give Scottish domiciled students a grant which compensates exactly for the fees. In much the same way as English LEA's used to do for living expenses and which, presumably, theyu STILL could if they were minded to.
Or perhaps even the power of an English LEA is too much for the Scottish Parliament??
I know such a waste of time and money grates, especially when being accused of 'adopting a policy' when in fact the SP is REFUSING to adopt the English tuition fee policy, however a small pragmatic shift to shut the whinging gits up would be worth it.
Or perhaps even the power of an English LEA is too much for the Scottish Parliament??
I know such a waste of time and money grates, especially when being accused of 'adopting a policy' when in fact the SP is REFUSING to adopt the English tuition fee policy, however a small pragmatic shift to shut the whinging gits up would be worth it.
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2012-02-03 21:15
I noticed on the Ceefax that the, "Scottish", Labour state there is no Economic case for independence.
Can you believe these numpties? The Wastemonster creates, "Extra Regio Teritories", with the express intention of doing Scotland out of her oil. Then they use a per capita share for Scotland when up to 98% of the oil & gas extracted in any year comes out of Scottish waters. They lump The Scottish Crown Estates in along with the English Crown Estates and the profits go right into the Treasury. They grab the fines gathered in the independent Scottish courts for the Treasury and ever so many other rip offs and those good patriotic Scots in "Scottish", Labour say there is no economic case for independence.
Can you believe these numpties? The Wastemonster creates, "Extra Regio Teritories", with the express intention of doing Scotland out of her oil. Then they use a per capita share for Scotland when up to 98% of the oil & gas extracted in any year comes out of Scottish waters. They lump The Scottish Crown Estates in along with the English Crown Estates and the profits go right into the Treasury. They grab the fines gathered in the independent Scottish courts for the Treasury and ever so many other rip offs and those good patriotic Scots in "Scottish", Labour say there is no economic case for independence.
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2012-02-03 11:58
I would invite Lord Foulkes and Lord Forsyth to Scottish university campuses to repeat to students what they said in the House of Lords.
Both of them would end up being tarred and feathered, and tied to university gates.
Both of them would end up being tarred and feathered, and tied to university gates.
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2012-02-03 11:59
Quote from a Scottish Government spokesman:
"Tuition fee arrangements are based on domicile not nationality - and it is the Westminster Government that is failing English-domiciled students. We are committed to free access to higher education based on ability, not the ability to pay ... it is Westminster which refuses to pay for students from England"
Scotland receives a block grant from the UK Government which the Scottish Parliament has the right to distribute as necessary in accordance to their policies and budgets. Education costs are included in that block payment.
If English students were also given free tuition in Scotland then England, not Westminster, would have to Pay their fees out of their own block grant. Or Westminster would have to budget and pay University fees for the WHOLE of the UK before Block Grants were paid out to Scotland, Wales & N.I.
I believe EU students are subsidised by their own countries but I need to research the EU agreement so far as University education is concerned.
"Tuition fee arrangements are based on domicile not nationality - and it is the Westminster Government that is failing English-domiciled students. We are committed to free access to higher education based on ability, not the ability to pay ... it is Westminster which refuses to pay for students from England"
Scotland receives a block grant from the UK Government which the Scottish Parliament has the right to distribute as necessary in accordance to their policies and budgets. Education costs are included in that block payment.
If English students were also given free tuition in Scotland then England, not Westminster, would have to Pay their fees out of their own block grant. Or Westminster would have to budget and pay University fees for the WHOLE of the UK before Block Grants were paid out to Scotland, Wales & N.I.
I believe EU students are subsidised by their own countries but I need to research the EU agreement so far as University education is concerned.
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2012-02-03 12:44
I'm getting sick fed up of hearing how unfair it is that English students have to pay tuition fees in Scotland.
Auld Bob is right in that the Scottish Government no longer receives ANY Barnett funding for tuition fees as this component of the Block Grant ceased when English spending on tuition fees ended.
Our Government has been forced to fund our youngsters fees through careful efficiency savings and cuts to other areas of our Block Grant.
England won't fund their own students but expect to send their children up here to get a free education on the back of our efficiency savings.
What an extraordinary position. They've said to their students we won't fund you and because of that we've stopped sending that portion of money to Scotland to cover their tuition fees. They've made cuts in whats left of their block grant so that their children can have free tuition fees. Despite this we think we should be able to send our children up there for a free education and further cuts should be made to what's left of their Block Grant in order that they can fund our children's education too.
Absolutely ludicrous.
Auld Bob is right in that the Scottish Government no longer receives ANY Barnett funding for tuition fees as this component of the Block Grant ceased when English spending on tuition fees ended.
Our Government has been forced to fund our youngsters fees through careful efficiency savings and cuts to other areas of our Block Grant.
England won't fund their own students but expect to send their children up here to get a free education on the back of our efficiency savings.
What an extraordinary position. They've said to their students we won't fund you and because of that we've stopped sending that portion of money to Scotland to cover their tuition fees. They've made cuts in whats left of their block grant so that their children can have free tuition fees. Despite this we think we should be able to send our children up there for a free education and further cuts should be made to what's left of their Block Grant in order that they can fund our children's education too.
Absolutely ludicrous.
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2012-02-03 21:24
Thanks for that Grassyknollingt on, I would have checked things out before posting but had to go for a medical appointment then trot of to Kirkaldy to get my new prescriptions filled. So I posted in haste. Memory says it was a set to with Swinney and someone in the debating chamber when the block grant was reduced that stuck in my memory. So yes, it was Barnett Consequentials right enough.
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2012-02-03 12:55
Just listened to Lord Forsyth speaking in the debate yesterday and squirmed as he described free University places in Scotland as being decided by the Scottish Executive, He repeated this twice rather than recognising the Scottish Government by name.
In the same speech later, he obviously forgets his earlier utterances and proceeds to mentions the Scottish Government by name.
His speech reminded me of the broken down Town Hall clock. 'No matter what it says it is going to be correct twice in any one day'
In the same speech later, he obviously forgets his earlier utterances and proceeds to mentions the Scottish Government by name.
His speech reminded me of the broken down Town Hall clock. 'No matter what it says it is going to be correct twice in any one day'
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2012-02-03 13:12
Just watching yesterday (2nd Feb) in the Lords today. Following on from their fulminating on the unfairness English students paying fees all over Britain - which of couse is exactly what both Labour & Tory govts intended (the unfairness being envy of Scots students) - there was an odd "probing" contribution from Lord Sewel about "energy security for Britain" and the possibility of Holyrood being able to stop further nuclear-power building in Scotland.
Lord O'Neill wants it to be made clear whether the Scottish parliament, in one way or another, can prevent another Torness being built.
Interesting perspective, from him and Browne: that Britain's "baseline 24/7" power production relies in some key sense on Scotland.
Browne noted that the development of green energy "depends substantially on that (i.e. UK) market." and notes that Scotland at peak demand imports nuclear energy from England and - if independet, god forbid - that peak dependence would continue "to stop the lights going out".
Almost every point these people make seems to bring up some misty spectre of a horrid thing just a wee bit too vague to call a veiled threat. Just enough to keep reminding Scots that we're clients, poor relations, dependents, too wee and too poor.
Lord O'Neill wants it to be made clear whether the Scottish parliament, in one way or another, can prevent another Torness being built.
Interesting perspective, from him and Browne: that Britain's "baseline 24/7" power production relies in some key sense on Scotland.
Browne noted that the development of green energy "depends substantially on that (i.e. UK) market." and notes that Scotland at peak demand imports nuclear energy from England and - if independet, god forbid - that peak dependence would continue "to stop the lights going out".
Almost every point these people make seems to bring up some misty spectre of a horrid thing just a wee bit too vague to call a veiled threat. Just enough to keep reminding Scots that we're clients, poor relations, dependents, too wee and too poor.
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2012-02-03 21:33
Trouble with that is that England are net importers of Energy and Scotland are net exporters of same. That is, Scotland exports more than she imports. The fact is, due to the unequal way they charge Scottish generaters for feeding the grid but pay extra to English generaters that means the trade in power is going to go through the English roof after independence and they know it. Here is a wee factoid, the first electricity grid crossborder link was from the Lothians based generators to England. The grid was a WWII plan due to German bombing power stations.
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2012-02-03 13:16
The two effers.
Here is the substance of a letter I have sent to newspapers. The Scottish Daily Distress published much of it today.
"There is no such thing as free university education. Either the student or that student’s family pays for it or, as in Scotland’s case, the Scottish Government in line with the honoured Scottish tradition of free education pays, out of the Scottish budget, for Scottish students.
Is it the suggestion that the hard pressed Scottish Government should pay the cost of English students out of Scotland’s budget. Of course it shouldn’t.
It’s really very simple - if English students are to study at Scottish institutions, and they are very welcome indeed to do so, the English education authorities should pay their costs. In the same way as the Scottish Government pays the costs for the Scottish students.
It is not Scotland that is discriminating against English students. It’s the English education authorities and the English universities. That has nothing to do with us."
Here is the substance of a letter I have sent to newspapers. The Scottish Daily Distress published much of it today.
"There is no such thing as free university education. Either the student or that student’s family pays for it or, as in Scotland’s case, the Scottish Government in line with the honoured Scottish tradition of free education pays, out of the Scottish budget, for Scottish students.
Is it the suggestion that the hard pressed Scottish Government should pay the cost of English students out of Scotland’s budget. Of course it shouldn’t.
It’s really very simple - if English students are to study at Scottish institutions, and they are very welcome indeed to do so, the English education authorities should pay their costs. In the same way as the Scottish Government pays the costs for the Scottish students.
It is not Scotland that is discriminating against English students. It’s the English education authorities and the English universities. That has nothing to do with us."
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2012-02-03 13:25
On the subject of anti-Scottish behaviour from Scottish Lords.
[I can't get the quote function to work, but this is by Andrew Fletcher of Saultoun.]
When our Kings succeeded to the Crown of England, the ministers of that nation took a short way to ruin us, by concurring with their inclination to extend the prerogative in Scotland; and the great places and pensions conferred upon Scotsmen by that court, made them to be willing instruments in the work.
[....] All our affairs since the Union of the Crowns have been managed by the advice of English ministers, and the principal offices of the kingdom filled with such men, as the Court of England knew would be subservient to their designs: by which means they have had so visible an influence upon our whole administration, that we have from that time appeared to the rest of the world more like a conquered province than a free independent people. [....] Let no man say, that it cannot be proved that the English Court has ever bestowed any bribe in this country. For they bestow all offices and pensions; they bribe us, and are masters of us at our own cost. It is nothing but an English interest in this house, that those who wish well to our country, have to struggle with at this time. We may if we please, dream of other remedies; but so long as Scotsmen must go to the English court to obtain office of trust or profits in this kingdom, those offices will always be managed with regard to the court and interest of England, though to the betraying of the interest of this nation, whenever it comes in competition with that of England. And what less can be expected, unless we resolve to expect miracles, and that greedy, ambitious, and for the most part necessitous men, involved in great debts, burdened with great families, and having great titles to support, will lay down their places, rather than comply with an English interest in obedience to their prince's commands? [....] We all know this is the cause of our poverty, misery and dependence. But we have been for so long a time so poor, so miserable, and depending, that we have neither heart nor courage, though we want not the means, to free ourselves.
This speech was made to the Scottish parliament in May 1703, before the Union of the Parliaments, describing the practical disadvantages of the Union of the Crowns, which led to the Head of State playing for the other team.
The Scottish parliament's attempts to extricate itself from this untenable situation led directly to the forced Union of the Parliaments four years later.
This passage so exactly describes what's wrong now, it's uncanny. It is also the answer to those who complain that Scotland has too much influence in Westminster, with Scots becoming PM and sometimes dominating the Cabinet. These men are the direct descendants of the "greedy ambitious" men described by Fletcher, doing exactly what they've been doing for 400 years. Foulkes and Forsyth are worthy successors.
[I can't get the quote function to work, but this is by Andrew Fletcher of Saultoun.]
When our Kings succeeded to the Crown of England, the ministers of that nation took a short way to ruin us, by concurring with their inclination to extend the prerogative in Scotland; and the great places and pensions conferred upon Scotsmen by that court, made them to be willing instruments in the work.
[....] All our affairs since the Union of the Crowns have been managed by the advice of English ministers, and the principal offices of the kingdom filled with such men, as the Court of England knew would be subservient to their designs: by which means they have had so visible an influence upon our whole administration, that we have from that time appeared to the rest of the world more like a conquered province than a free independent people. [....] Let no man say, that it cannot be proved that the English Court has ever bestowed any bribe in this country. For they bestow all offices and pensions; they bribe us, and are masters of us at our own cost. It is nothing but an English interest in this house, that those who wish well to our country, have to struggle with at this time. We may if we please, dream of other remedies; but so long as Scotsmen must go to the English court to obtain office of trust or profits in this kingdom, those offices will always be managed with regard to the court and interest of England, though to the betraying of the interest of this nation, whenever it comes in competition with that of England. And what less can be expected, unless we resolve to expect miracles, and that greedy, ambitious, and for the most part necessitous men, involved in great debts, burdened with great families, and having great titles to support, will lay down their places, rather than comply with an English interest in obedience to their prince's commands? [....] We all know this is the cause of our poverty, misery and dependence. But we have been for so long a time so poor, so miserable, and depending, that we have neither heart nor courage, though we want not the means, to free ourselves.
This speech was made to the Scottish parliament in May 1703, before the Union of the Parliaments, describing the practical disadvantages of the Union of the Crowns, which led to the Head of State playing for the other team.
The Scottish parliament's attempts to extricate itself from this untenable situation led directly to the forced Union of the Parliaments four years later.
This passage so exactly describes what's wrong now, it's uncanny. It is also the answer to those who complain that Scotland has too much influence in Westminster, with Scots becoming PM and sometimes dominating the Cabinet. These men are the direct descendants of the "greedy ambitious" men described by Fletcher, doing exactly what they've been doing for 400 years. Foulkes and Forsyth are worthy successors.
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2012-02-03 13:52
This was said in the english parliament discussing the union
'Scotland is a beggar and whoever marries a beggar can only expect a louse for her portion’.
The Tory leader Edward Seymour on the subject of Union with Scotland in the English Parliament, 1700'
'Scotland is a beggar and whoever marries a beggar can only expect a louse for her portion’.
The Tory leader Edward Seymour on the subject of Union with Scotland in the English Parliament, 1700'
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2012-02-03 13:27
The English, whilst not entirely happy about fees at English universities, are still prepared to pay. The numbers have dropped a little, but mainly for mature students.
If they are prepared to pay English uni fees, they can darn well pay fees to Scottish unis. After all, they elected the government that introduced them in the first place.We elected a different one.
As for those two out-of-touch geriatrics, why don't they ask matron how long it is till teatime and go back to sleep? They matter not a whit. Nobody elected them.
If they are prepared to pay English uni fees, they can darn well pay fees to Scottish unis. After all, they elected the government that introduced them in the first place.We elected a different one.
As for those two out-of-touch geriatrics, why don't they ask matron how long it is till teatime and go back to sleep? They matter not a whit. Nobody elected them.
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2012-02-03 13:32
But surely they don't "pay", they "sign up to pay" which is a different matter. Or have I not understood the English system?
Isn't this why English students from poor families are still going to university, in spite of the fees?
In the Guardian there's also some indications about the possible imminent death of smaller local universities as people wanting value for their investment flock to the big names. Which in social terms would be another worrying factor.
Isn't this why English students from poor families are still going to university, in spite of the fees?
In the Guardian there's also some indications about the possible imminent death of smaller local universities as people wanting value for their investment flock to the big names. Which in social terms would be another worrying factor.
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2012-02-03 13:37
The UCAS numbers are a little misleading, in that there was a big rise in mature students applying to University, and students missing out a gap year, last year to get in before the price rise.
We'll need to wait for the more detailed figures by year group, to see by how much the cost rise has affected this year's English school leavers.
We'll need to wait for the more detailed figures by year group, to see by how much the cost rise has affected this year's English school leavers.
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2012-02-03 13:39
Here's a link for a another poll in the Inverness Courier [on right hand side of page]
www.inverness-courier.co.uk/.../
Requires our attention.
www.inverness-courier.co.uk/.../
Requires our attention.
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2012-02-03 13:52
That keeps happening. 58% yes, 42% no.
Is it just that cybernats are more organised? Or that people who are online are more independence-minded?
Is it just that cybernats are more organised? Or that people who are online are more independence-minded?
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2012-02-03 15:52
Closing daye for the poll...
Closing Date: 01/01/0001
Does that mean we zero the gregorian calendar again in scotland come independence day :)
BBC News will undoubtedly jump on this with an SNP Accused of Screwing Up The Worlds Time System headline.
Closing Date: 01/01/0001
Does that mean we zero the gregorian calendar again in scotland come independence day :)
BBC News will undoubtedly jump on this with an SNP Accused of Screwing Up The Worlds Time System headline.
#
2012-02-03 13:44
Why is there no mention of the fact that Scottish students wishing to study in England have to pay up to £9,000 too?
The only reason EU students don't is because it is also free for Scottish students to study at a university in the EU. This is a reciprocal arrangement.
Because England has opted for tuition fees, then they cannot expect their students to study for free in other countries, when they don't afford the same opportunity to students from those other countries!
Why are all the unionist media spouting such lies by omitting this information!!
The only reason EU students don't is because it is also free for Scottish students to study at a university in the EU. This is a reciprocal arrangement.
Because England has opted for tuition fees, then they cannot expect their students to study for free in other countries, when they don't afford the same opportunity to students from those other countries!
Why are all the unionist media spouting such lies by omitting this information!!
#
2012-02-03 21:46
Quoting Steafan34:
Do you really need to ask?
Why are all the unionist media spouting such lies by omitting this information!!
Do you really need to ask?
#
2012-02-03 13:45
North Lanarkshire Mafioso being slaughtered on Radio Shortbread by students and even a NL councillor.
The majority of the audience are backing Alex Neil.
Wee Brian must be wondering whit's happening.
The majority of the audience are backing Alex Neil.
Wee Brian must be wondering whit's happening.
#
2012-02-03 15:12
Good. NLC are a disgrace and the sooner their mismanagement under Labour is ended the better. The sheer money they waste is startling (Like just shy of £1m for those stupid waves either side of Cumbernauld Town Centre). Roll on May and hopefully a NLC that will realise there's more in their area than just Motherwell!
I may have to listen to it on iPlayer just to enjoy it.
I may have to listen to it on iPlayer just to enjoy it.
#
2012-02-03 13:46
#Highland Tiger.
‘This should be a warning to those tempted to vote no in the referendum.’
I don’t want to resort to scare tactics, but I reiterate the above. If ‘No’ is the result, the retribution from Westminster will be cruel. They would wish to see the class system as exemplified by messrs Foulkes and Forsythe spread here along with a complete removal of powers. We’ll be doffing our caps to them for evermore.And there just will not be enough ghillie jobs to go around.
‘This should be a warning to those tempted to vote no in the referendum.’
I don’t want to resort to scare tactics, but I reiterate the above. If ‘No’ is the result, the retribution from Westminster will be cruel. They would wish to see the class system as exemplified by messrs Foulkes and Forsythe spread here along with a complete removal of powers. We’ll be doffing our caps to them for evermore.And there just will not be enough ghillie jobs to go around.
#
2012-02-03 14:36
That was my statement! Highland Tiger quoted me. ;)
I agree though. A "no" vote is a disaster.
I agree though. A "no" vote is a disaster.
#
2012-02-03 15:23
Relax, you don't resort to scare tactics, the Tories and Labour are actually colluding in the house of lords right now to try and force a legal framework to force Scots to abandon free higher education. If we remain in the union they will succeed, they reserve the right to withhold powers.
That is the actuality, the reality not a story designed to scare, however much it actually does.
That is the actuality, the reality not a story designed to scare, however much it actually does.
#
2012-02-03 13:58
Pace Soixante-neuf 2012-02-03 12:52
That keeps happening. 58% yes, 42% no.
Is it just that cybernats are more organised? Or that people who are online are more independence-minded?
YES and YES
That keeps happening. 58% yes, 42% no.
Is it just that cybernats are more organised? Or that people who are online are more independence-minded?
YES and YES
#
2012-02-03 14:04
I heard that the sdl are doing a march and the politicans are against it and rightly so but my problem is the unionists politicans opposition because as far as I'm aware this is a product of British scaremongering and there arguments reflect the unionist parties arguments only with a few exceptions (the unionists should hang there heads in shame for creating this group with there lies) but the few exceptions are manifested ideas created by unionists but don't say it in public! I remember there march in Irvine last year and they actually sounded like the labour party (properly get the darkened room for saying so but it was so similar to what labour say) this is the extremism that needs to be extinguished and it will after independance as there purpose is to protect the union and without it there arguments and lies fade!
#
2012-02-03 16:08
Even after independence there'll still be a few nutters who'll think Scotland will become an Islamic state if they don't gather in small groups in city centres and shout abuse at anyone with darker skin than them.
#
2012-02-03 16:10
Story here...
bbc.co.uk/.../...
The Unionists fear BNP affiliated organisations like the SDL and 'Scotland says Naw' (as per the previous story) attaching themselves to the 'No' campaign, because these right wing extremist groups will not help their cause. I think the Orange Order have realised (since a bit of an outburst some months ago) that they would not help either, so appear to be staying out of the debate.
But I agree, everyone should stand up and be opposed to these pathetic bigoted racists.
bbc.co.uk/.../...
The Unionists fear BNP affiliated organisations like the SDL and 'Scotland says Naw' (as per the previous story) attaching themselves to the 'No' campaign, because these right wing extremist groups will not help their cause. I think the Orange Order have realised (since a bit of an outburst some months ago) that they would not help either, so appear to be staying out of the debate.
But I agree, everyone should stand up and be opposed to these pathetic bigoted racists.
#
2012-02-03 17:05
When the " Question of Oil & Gas " rears it's head again in the press articles" over the next few years take a good look at just how many Oil Feilds are in Scottish Territorial Waters. Where the pipe lines are coming ashore and the " Extra Regis Line " is coming in. Do we Want Independence Yes.
#
2012-02-03 14:21
O/T
Looks like some more of the Labour chickens are coming home to roost.
21 Hospitals struggling to pay off their PFI debts and it looks like the taxpayer is going to have to foot the bill again!
telegraph.co.uk/.../...
Looks like some more of the Labour chickens are coming home to roost.
21 Hospitals struggling to pay off their PFI debts and it looks like the taxpayer is going to have to foot the bill again!
telegraph.co.uk/.../...
#
2012-02-03 16:19
Scary stuff, PFI payments vs. health/welfare provision and what gets priority? Repaying PFI.
#
2012-02-03 21:56
Quoting Alx1:
Quoting ButeBhoy:
Wee Brian knows full well what's happening. In fact he knew it was coming long ago.
O/T
Looks like some more of the Labour chickens are coming home to roost.
21 Hospitals struggling to pay off their PFI debts and it looks like the taxpayer is going to have to foot the bill again!
telegraph.co.uk/.../...
Quoting ButeBhoy:
Wee Brian must be wondering whit's happening.
Wee Brian knows full well what's happening. In fact he knew it was coming long ago.
#
2012-02-03 14:24
so what we have is... Scottish peers who do not like us having Devolution..unless its issue they aprove off...One would think that those parasites would reflect the view of the people they were at one time paid to represent...now their views correspond to the Westminster Establishment...let them come to Scotland and repeat their speel... I think we know how to deal with them.
#
2012-02-03 14:33
This constant attack on the intrinsic values of the Scottish Enlightenment is petty and extremely short sighted. Such values always live long past the concerns of the politics of the 5 year plan.
Unlike free education in Scotland, the House of Lords has a shelf life, as does the Union. The more they attack our values and those of civilisation in general, the more they both appear to really stink.
Unlike free education in Scotland, the House of Lords has a shelf life, as does the Union. The more they attack our values and those of civilisation in general, the more they both appear to really stink.
#
2012-02-03 14:35
Huhne is being charged with perverting the course of justice .
Why is he bleating on about speeding?
Could he also be charged with wasting police time?
Sorry! can't stop smiling!
Why is he bleating on about speeding?
Could he also be charged with wasting police time?
Sorry! can't stop smiling!
#
2012-02-03 14:45
Forsyth would privatise everything if he could. The Social Democratic nature of devolved Scotland is an anathema to him. Foulkes in what appears to be a Labour tradition would rather Forsyth privatise everything than Labour lose its power base (and he his seat in the Lords perhaps).
A marriage forged in hell if ever there was one. Huhne appears to have stolen their thunder though.
A marriage forged in hell if ever there was one. Huhne appears to have stolen their thunder though.
#
2012-02-03 14:46
The Scottish government is simply putting into practice what Westminster preaches but doesn't deliver.
A free, solid higher education for its population.
One little aspect of the foreign student arrangement which shouldn't be underestimated is the positive PR effect in form of the image that they take back with them. The opportunity for them to trade with someone they know and trust is something you can't buy.
A free, solid higher education for its population.
One little aspect of the foreign student arrangement which shouldn't be underestimated is the positive PR effect in form of the image that they take back with them. The opportunity for them to trade with someone they know and trust is something you can't buy.
#
2012-02-03 14:57
Independence Poll on the Hamilton Advertiser front page.
Over 60% YES so far.
ICLanarkshire is where I access the Lanarkshire newspapers
Over 60% YES so far.
ICLanarkshire is where I access the Lanarkshire newspapers
#
2012-02-03 15:02
O/T
It would appear that The Scotsman or some other Unionist backing organisation (sinister or otherwise - you know what I mean)has initiated some sort of job creation scheme.
It has been very noticeable that, since Cameron started the ball rolling a couple of weeks ago, there has been a massive increase in the 'number' of anti-independence monikers contributing to the Comments in the paper.
I don't think anybody is sufficiently naive as to believe that this indicates a sudden upsurge of opposition to Independence.
Whether this indicates many new contributors or a few with multiple id's is not clear but it is fairly obviously an organised exercise.
It would appear that The Scotsman or some other Unionist backing organisation (sinister or otherwise - you know what I mean)has initiated some sort of job creation scheme.
It has been very noticeable that, since Cameron started the ball rolling a couple of weeks ago, there has been a massive increase in the 'number' of anti-independence monikers contributing to the Comments in the paper.
I don't think anybody is sufficiently naive as to believe that this indicates a sudden upsurge of opposition to Independence.
Whether this indicates many new contributors or a few with multiple id's is not clear but it is fairly obviously an organised exercise.
#
2012-02-03 15:10
I chased a few off the Guardian. The great thing about the Guardian is the ability to see previous posting history. A sock puppet stands out like a sore thumb there. So I can confirm that there is definitely an attempt to counter the evil cybernats :) Trouble is mostly we are real people with views on lots of topics not just Scotland. Many of us are pro-independence without being party members. The attempts by party activists to spread their message is so clumsy as to be embarrassing. They are not adverse to being seriously personal about SNP leaders either.
#
2012-02-03 16:15
I see the dreadful Answer has popped up on the Guardian pages, where he is being given short shrift (0 "likes").
#
2012-02-03 16:40
I love answer - I have never seen such a fetish for stats without actually explaining (or possibly even understanding) what they mean. He purports to support Scottish independence (because we are a drain on England) and yet every single post tries to imply we couldn't go it alone and shouldn't vote for independence. I think he might be Iain Gray :)
He has probably spent more in the value of his own manhours talking about APT than any actual difference there might be in the actual sums involved between an 8.6% flat rate share and trying to work out what was gathered in Scottish airports. Total APT is around 0.75% of reckoned receipts, the delta if there is a shortfall, in using population share will be a fraction of this small number. In short it would fall into the roundings. Answer, bless him, has banged on about this as if he is clutching the Holy Grail itself.
answer is unique and needs a heritage order slapped on him - File under Quirks, Follies and Oddballs.
He has probably spent more in the value of his own manhours talking about APT than any actual difference there might be in the actual sums involved between an 8.6% flat rate share and trying to work out what was gathered in Scottish airports. Total APT is around 0.75% of reckoned receipts, the delta if there is a shortfall, in using population share will be a fraction of this small number. In short it would fall into the roundings. Answer, bless him, has banged on about this as if he is clutching the Holy Grail itself.
answer is unique and needs a heritage order slapped on him - File under Quirks, Follies and Oddballs.
#
2012-02-03 17:22
Quoting gus1940:
The same pattern has been evident for a few years on the now destroyed Scotsman and Herald forums. This activity is at it's most hysterical during office hours, then the main abusers and racist bigots slither of.
I am confident as I have posted many times, on these forums and the Telegraph, that these posts have a common denominator in that they emanate from the one orifice. Westminster, Dover House, St Andrews House and Keir Hardy house.
I worked out on the back of a fag packet that there are approximately 700 or so staff, relatives, Scottish office employees and MPs and Lords who are directly dependent on the Union's status quo. Having thought about it you could probably treble that number.
Scottish MPs at Westminster and the Scottish Lords have very little these days to exercise their minds, most of the work they did do is now covered by Devolution or the EU. The Scottish Office is simply a propaganda office that we are forced to pay for.
So there is a huge wedge of people who have every motivation to undermine Scottish Independence, and as we have seen recently Scotland. they have internet access. But most obviously they have access to reams of data and statistics as can be seen from the various posts. They are able to quote the very latest line in propaganda and the latest attack line. They accuse Cybernats of being organised and having blackberry rings going etc. WHY? Simply because they are judging the world as they see it. A dead give away.
However the poetic justice in all this is that a massive back lash is now in swing against all the lies and propaganda. They are providing the SNP with the kind of ammunition and advertising that money could not buy. And do you know what? They are doing it DELIBERATELY. I will have to lie down again as I am sore from laughing.
Yours sincerely Hen Broon.
SAOR ALBA GU BRATH
O/T
It would appear that The Scotsman or some other Unionist backing organisation (sinister or otherwise - you know what I mean)has initiated some sort of job creation scheme.
It has been very noticeable that, since Cameron started the ball rolling a couple of weeks ago, there has been a massive increase in the 'number' of anti-independence monikers contributing to the Comments in the paper.
I don't think anybody is sufficiently naive as to believe that this indicates a sudden upsurge of opposition to Independence.
Whether this indicates many new contributors or a few with multiple id's is not clear but it is fairly obviously an organised exercise.
The same pattern has been evident for a few years on the now destroyed Scotsman and Herald forums. This activity is at it's most hysterical during office hours, then the main abusers and racist bigots slither of.
I am confident as I have posted many times, on these forums and the Telegraph, that these posts have a common denominator in that they emanate from the one orifice. Westminster, Dover House, St Andrews House and Keir Hardy house.
I worked out on the back of a fag packet that there are approximately 700 or so staff, relatives, Scottish office employees and MPs and Lords who are directly dependent on the Union's status quo. Having thought about it you could probably treble that number.
Scottish MPs at Westminster and the Scottish Lords have very little these days to exercise their minds, most of the work they did do is now covered by Devolution or the EU. The Scottish Office is simply a propaganda office that we are forced to pay for.
So there is a huge wedge of people who have every motivation to undermine Scottish Independence, and as we have seen recently Scotland. they have internet access. But most obviously they have access to reams of data and statistics as can be seen from the various posts. They are able to quote the very latest line in propaganda and the latest attack line. They accuse Cybernats of being organised and having blackberry rings going etc. WHY? Simply because they are judging the world as they see it. A dead give away.
However the poetic justice in all this is that a massive back lash is now in swing against all the lies and propaganda. They are providing the SNP with the kind of ammunition and advertising that money could not buy. And do you know what? They are doing it DELIBERATELY. I will have to lie down again as I am sore from laughing.
Yours sincerely Hen Broon.
SAOR ALBA GU BRATH
#
2012-02-03 15:15
I could have sworn I heard Lord Foulkes on the radio yesterday spout this nonsense and then in the same interview argue that he supported FFA for Scotland (I think his words were 'full fiscal responsibility') via a 2nd referendum. Does Foulkes definition of FFA include Westminister dictating our spending priorities?
#
2012-02-03 15:18
Can anyone explain why this bunch are any different from this bunch: "Right wing extremists ape lang..."
Both are arguing about events beyond their control - The Lord's have no hope of the current Scotland Act Ammendment Bill ever being law and the BNP have the equal chance of attracting votes in Scotland.
They are all simply howling for the moon.
Both are arguing about events beyond their control - The Lord's have no hope of the current Scotland Act Ammendment Bill ever being law and the BNP have the equal chance of attracting votes in Scotland.
They are all simply howling for the moon.
#
2012-02-03 15:50
O/T
Given that there is virtual unanimity amongst NNS contributors that the relentless campaign of bias, distortion, omission and ownright lies waged by BBC Scotland and the fact that many suggestions have been made as to how this situation can be remedied can I make the following suggestion:-
That NNS or one of our contributors creates as a Word Document a really hard hitting letter of complaint which can be downloaded.
The letter would have space for entering an individual's personal details and any desired additional comments prior to printing out copies and mailing them to The Head Honcho at Pacific Quay, The DG, Chris Patten and anybody else considered relevant (not forgetting to include a list of all recipients on each copy).
It might be an idea to have 2 versions:-
a) A straightforward letter as suggested above.
b) As (a) but with an additional section for those cancelling their Licence Payment to add the fact that they are cancelling Licence Payment plus relevant details of Licence Ref., Direct Debit etc.
I would further suggest that a draft letter be put up giving contributors the opportunity to suggest amendments or improvements so that we can arrive at something that will really hit the recipients between the eyes and make them rethink their editorial policy.
.
Given that there is virtual unanimity amongst NNS contributors that the relentless campaign of bias, distortion, omission and ownright lies waged by BBC Scotland and the fact that many suggestions have been made as to how this situation can be remedied can I make the following suggestion:-
That NNS or one of our contributors creates as a Word Document a really hard hitting letter of complaint which can be downloaded.
The letter would have space for entering an individual's personal details and any desired additional comments prior to printing out copies and mailing them to The Head Honcho at Pacific Quay, The DG, Chris Patten and anybody else considered relevant (not forgetting to include a list of all recipients on each copy).
It might be an idea to have 2 versions:-
a) A straightforward letter as suggested above.
b) As (a) but with an additional section for those cancelling their Licence Payment to add the fact that they are cancelling Licence Payment plus relevant details of Licence Ref., Direct Debit etc.
I would further suggest that a draft letter be put up giving contributors the opportunity to suggest amendments or improvements so that we can arrive at something that will really hit the recipients between the eyes and make them rethink their editorial policy.
.
#
2012-02-03 22:18
Quoting xyz:
Read the piece. Came to the conclusion that they really are asking for it and just might get it. How about an independent Scotland throwing in her financial lot with the North Sea Oil countries and forming a financial equivalent to OPEC?
Sounds good to me, but then I'm not an economist.
The topic on the BBC is currency .. it's open for comments! bbc.co.uk/.../...
Read the piece. Came to the conclusion that they really are asking for it and just might get it. How about an independent Scotland throwing in her financial lot with the North Sea Oil countries and forming a financial equivalent to OPEC?
Sounds good to me, but then I'm not an economist.
#
2012-02-03 16:32
The only comment I can think of is the words of AS a couple of weeks ago,,Those Days Are Over.
I have heard and seen a lot in my political life but those words told me that the struggle to free my country may come sooner than I thought.
I have heard and seen a lot in my political life but those words told me that the struggle to free my country may come sooner than I thought.
#
2012-02-03 17:10
I think lessons from history show that a superficial look at 'revolutionary' world events can give the impression that they arrived from nowhere, but invariably there's a long period of slow build-up, a tipping-point is reached, and the final 'act of the play' is quite swift.
I think we're at the tipping point and more and more people are seeing that their reasons for resisting their distant desires no longer apply.
People are literally seeing fewer and fewer problems with independence.
I think it's important to note crowd behaviour too. Crowd behaviour has made people question themselves for decades, and conclude "better the devil I know" and "besides most other people don't seem to want it".
The good news is that those unknowns, those liable to following crowd behaviour are that much easier to convince now.
For once, the independence movement may well be about to be the beneficiary of crowd behaviour rather than being hamstrung by it for decades.
I think we're at the tipping point and more and more people are seeing that their reasons for resisting their distant desires no longer apply.
People are literally seeing fewer and fewer problems with independence.
I think it's important to note crowd behaviour too. Crowd behaviour has made people question themselves for decades, and conclude "better the devil I know" and "besides most other people don't seem to want it".
The good news is that those unknowns, those liable to following crowd behaviour are that much easier to convince now.
For once, the independence movement may well be about to be the beneficiary of crowd behaviour rather than being hamstrung by it for decades.
#
2012-02-03 22:30
Actually I got quite a shock today. While out at the Medical Centre I bumped into a former Union colleague. A real Labour firebrad from years ago. We used to rag each other mercilessly at work and oppose each other at union meetings. I greeted him with, "Aye! Tam, yer pairty haes its jaikit oan a shooglie nail oan the back o the door". He,(for once), said nothing but reached into his inside pocket ald produced an SMP membership card. Then he said, "Ah sud hae listened tae ye way back in the seeventies Bob, Ah hae tae say noo ye wir richt". I'm glad no one had a feather handy or I was ca'd ower.
#
2012-02-03 17:34
Arthur Midwinter just been on Newsdrive re his Scotsman front page story on SNP misinforming on economic position and his submission to the UK consultation, he was given a free run and interviewed by the Pauline McLean who after all is the Arts Correspondent and clearly had no grasp of the story, don't know if the SNP will be on, very muddled attempt to put their point to Midwinter.
#
2012-02-03 17:50
Apparently SNP turned down offer to come on but texters queried the issue of balance which were read out.
#
2012-02-03 20:36
Heard a couple of texts read out just before the 5 o'clock news. They were good, right to the point about Midwinter's previous.
#
2012-02-03 17:40
This will do wonders for the Independence Referendum. Take powers away from Scotland, charge everyone in Scotland tuition fees and next thing we know we will have to charge for prescriptions, have our free bus passes curtailed to within the local area and our elderly will be paying for personal care or the cost will be removed from their estates after death. If this happens, it means we have been given DevoMinus which means we can have some money to spend exactly as Westminster says.
How many sane Scots will want to remain as part of UK plc then?
How many sane Scots will want to remain as part of UK plc then?
#
2012-02-03 18:02
Makes you wonder if they to use the Devo Max routine when they realise its their last chance because the game is up. Would you trust them? They can't be trusted with what we have Devo Micro without wanting to take back every power handed over.
#
2012-02-03 18:07
Another good story to print off and pass along to the "undecided" voter. It gets better every day.
#
2012-02-03 18:32
Looks like Lord Foulkes is doing this in purpose! He must be looking to get added to The Scottish Government's honours list, post independence!
#
2012-02-03 18:58
Judging by its editorial, it takes a very right wing economic stance. All contributions to the debate on Scotland's future are welcome, but I don't find their approach very appealing.
#
2012-02-03 19:22
Snecked Again has explained the system very clearly. All the English students have to do to get a free university course in Scotland is to have their government (or local authority) pay the the fees for them.
Why EU students get free education in Scottish universities, as has been mentioned in a previous post, is because it is a reciprocal arrangement: Scottish students get free education in European universities.
I.e. The Scots government pays our universities for educating its own students and EU ones. EU governments pay their universities for educating their students and Scots ones. Simples!
When the Westminster government offers to pay universities in England the fees for Scots students, the Scots government will pay the fees for English students at Scottish universities. Dream on.
Why EU students get free education in Scottish universities, as has been mentioned in a previous post, is because it is a reciprocal arrangement: Scottish students get free education in European universities.
I.e. The Scots government pays our universities for educating its own students and EU ones. EU governments pay their universities for educating their students and Scots ones. Simples!
When the Westminster government offers to pay universities in England the fees for Scots students, the Scots government will pay the fees for English students at Scottish universities. Dream on.
#
2012-02-03 19:37
Correction
Scots don't get free education in European universities. They pay exactly the same amount as home students do - whatever that is. Scots attending university in 4 German Lander pay the same fees as their students. In the other 11 they would pay no tuition fees.
Scots don't get free education in European universities. They pay exactly the same amount as home students do - whatever that is. Scots attending university in 4 German Lander pay the same fees as their students. In the other 11 they would pay no tuition fees.
#
2012-02-03 19:33
Anybody got any idea about how Austria deals with German appllicants to its universities- is there a similar tendency for students to cross borders and is there a financial incentive to do so?
I had heard that there was once a problem and wondered if this were true, how did it get resolved?
I had heard that there was once a problem and wondered if this were true, how did it get resolved?
#
2012-02-03 19:46
I've been asking around about this - but got no answers.
In an EU state (Germany) some jurisdictions charge tuition fees for university, most don't.
If there was some massive problem with that, presumably we would have heard about it?
In an EU state (Germany) some jurisdictions charge tuition fees for university, most don't.
If there was some massive problem with that, presumably we would have heard about it?
#
2012-02-03 20:12
Quoting oldnat:
I seem to recall a comment on here once that Austria had lower HE prices than Germany and had a problem with cross-border appplications.
Not quite the same problem we're looking at but I wondered if there were any lessons for this situation.
I've been asking around about this - but got no answers.
In an EU state (Germany) some jurisdictions charge tuition fees for university, most don't.
I seem to recall a comment on here once that Austria had lower HE prices than Germany and had a problem with cross-border appplications.
Not quite the same problem we're looking at but I wondered if there were any lessons for this situation.
#
2012-02-04 07:34
The fact that German domiciled students now come to Austria to get free education, and easier access too has cause major problems in Austria.
I worked in the Austrian university sector before returning to Scotland and my wife´s Austrian so we follow the Austrian news regularly.
It has meant that the Austrian university system is overwhelmed by German domiciled students looking for places at Austrian universities. Austria tried to get some EU "dispensation", particularly regarding Medical and Engineering students and quotas but it seems that´s also been prevented.
Austria, as a German speaking country, is now facing in the next few years, a decided deficit in medical doctors and possible other skills as the students from Germany gradually return to Germany with their free Austrian education.
BTW, in Germany it is fine for one Bundesland to charge students normally domiciled in another Bundesland more money than domestic students. So any legal challenge is pretty ropey.
So Lord Foulkes´s (Labour, born in Shropshire) and Lord Forsyth´s (Conservative) stances looks even more precarious.
I bet that´ll go down well in the May local elections.
I guess we could always ask them how much they paid in fees to attend their universities, The University Of Edinburgh and University of St Andrews...
I worked in the Austrian university sector before returning to Scotland and my wife´s Austrian so we follow the Austrian news regularly.
It has meant that the Austrian university system is overwhelmed by German domiciled students looking for places at Austrian universities. Austria tried to get some EU "dispensation", particularly regarding Medical and Engineering students and quotas but it seems that´s also been prevented.
Austria, as a German speaking country, is now facing in the next few years, a decided deficit in medical doctors and possible other skills as the students from Germany gradually return to Germany with their free Austrian education.
BTW, in Germany it is fine for one Bundesland to charge students normally domiciled in another Bundesland more money than domestic students. So any legal challenge is pretty ropey.
So Lord Foulkes´s (Labour, born in Shropshire) and Lord Forsyth´s (Conservative) stances looks even more precarious.
I bet that´ll go down well in the May local elections.
I guess we could always ask them how much they paid in fees to attend their universities, The University Of Edinburgh and University of St Andrews...
#
2012-02-03 20:30
Quoting oldnat:
It happens all over Europe.
In Germany, for example in Munich you pay no tuition fees, whereas in Berlin you do.
Honestly, the people in Westminster really need to get out more.
I've been asking around about this - but got no answers.
In an EU state (Germany) some jurisdictions charge tuition fees for university, most don't.
If there was some massive problem with that, presumably we would have heard about it?
It happens all over Europe.
In Germany, for example in Munich you pay no tuition fees, whereas in Berlin you do.
Honestly, the people in Westminster really need to get out more.
#
2012-02-03 20:44
"Honestly, the people in Westminster really need to get out more."
My thoughts exactly!
If anyone has a link to any sites which have the details of how such systems work easily in the non-insular bits of Europe, that would be appreciated.
My thoughts exactly!
If anyone has a link to any sites which have the details of how such systems work easily in the non-insular bits of Europe, that would be appreciated.
#
2012-02-03 20:56
In Europe most have no tuition fees. None have fees over 1000euros a year.
Many English students are being encouraged to go to Belgium where they do courses in English.
It is disgraceful Westminster is putting these charges £9000 . The funding for higher education in England must be massively higher
(pro rata) just to cover these fees. The student Loan Bill must be much higher (pro rata) Scottish taxpayers must be funding higher loan allocation in England.
Scottish taxpayers are still funding the courses for students from elsewhere as the contribution they make does not cover the true cost of the courses. One University, full of wealthy students from elsewhere is funded by Scottish tax payers.
Many English students are being encouraged to go to Belgium where they do courses in English.
It is disgraceful Westminster is putting these charges £9000 . The funding for higher education in England must be massively higher
(pro rata) just to cover these fees. The student Loan Bill must be much higher (pro rata) Scottish taxpayers must be funding higher loan allocation in England.
Scottish taxpayers are still funding the courses for students from elsewhere as the contribution they make does not cover the true cost of the courses. One University, full of wealthy students from elsewhere is funded by Scottish tax payers.
#
2012-02-03 20:59
Although it would be interesting to know what the benefit is to the Scottish economy of the comparatively small number of EU students studying here, compared to the cost of the Scottish Government funding those places.
Anyone got that data?
Anyone got that data?
#
2012-02-03 20:58
The Lords have absolutely no powers.
This is just a publicity seeking exercise.
Totally irrelevant
Thatchers henchman. Even more votes for the SNP.
This is just a publicity seeking exercise.
Totally irrelevant
Thatchers henchman. Even more votes for the SNP.
#
2012-02-03 21:05
Devo Max is a vote for illegal wars based on lies and Trident.
Vote for Independence.
Vote for Independence.
#
2012-02-03 21:09
This is a bit of an odd attack from the unelected, since it was England and Wales which introduced elitist education charges for tertiary education creating the unfairness yet, they expected to force devolved Scots to follow their elitist policies? Extraordinary indeed NNS.
It is also England and Wales that maintained the silly prescription charges whilst claiming the 88% prescription exemption rate was costing more to administer than it collected? Extraordinary indeed NNS!
1911 Liberals promise; It is intended to substitute for the House of Lords as it at present exists a Second Chamber constituted on a popular instead of hereditary basis.
1997 Labour promise;The House of Lords must be reformed, the right of hereditary Peers to sit and vote in the House of Lords will be ended by statute...[2]
2011 ConDem promise; 20% unelected cronies and a large number of unelected English Bishops and unelected religious extremists??? Yes NNS, extraordinary!! !!!!
It is also England and Wales that maintained the silly prescription charges whilst claiming the 88% prescription exemption rate was costing more to administer than it collected? Extraordinary indeed NNS!
1911 Liberals promise; It is intended to substitute for the House of Lords as it at present exists a Second Chamber constituted on a popular instead of hereditary basis.
1997 Labour promise;The House of Lords must be reformed, the right of hereditary Peers to sit and vote in the House of Lords will be ended by statute...[2]
2011 ConDem promise; 20% unelected cronies and a large number of unelected English Bishops and unelected religious extremists??? Yes NNS, extraordinary!! !!!!
#
2012-02-03 22:07
Any MSM that offends. Do no engage, either watch or listen
Heads will roll
Lost ratings
Heads will roll
Lost ratings
#
2012-02-03 22:14
Olympic contribution were cut from the Scottish Block , yearly. Approx to totally nearly one £1Billion.
Olympics was exempted from VAT
Are the Commonwealth Games?
Shell made profits of 18Billion$ How much in profits from the Scottish North Sea sector, is going in Corporation tax to the UK Treasury.
Olympics was exempted from VAT
Are the Commonwealth Games?
Shell made profits of 18Billion$ How much in profits from the Scottish North Sea sector, is going in Corporation tax to the UK Treasury.
#
2012-02-03 22:49
Seven English NHS Hospital Trusts with debts caused by PFI repayments are to have access to a £1.5 billion Government Bail-out fund. Anyone know if this will boost the Barnett Consequentials in Scotland?
#
2012-02-03 23:40
And of Course the £300 + Expenses they get a day which they'd lose on Independence.
Doesn't the Scotland Bill also to be passed by the Scottish Parliament?
It's obviously gonna be no from the SNP and Greens and prob margo. Added to the prob 70+% of the people here being hostile to the idea, including probably most of labours support.
Don't mod this remember that facts are chiels that winna ding,
An' downa be disputed
But hasn't oor noble birkie (a) a red nose (b) an angry man (c) a criminal conviction
Walks like a duck and talks like a duck thats aboot to lose it's livelihood and subsidised bar, he's not exactly gonna be welcome in an ex miners club in cumnock is he?
Doesn't the Scotland Bill also to be passed by the Scottish Parliament?
It's obviously gonna be no from the SNP and Greens and prob margo. Added to the prob 70+% of the people here being hostile to the idea, including probably most of labours support.
Don't mod this remember that facts are chiels that winna ding,
An' downa be disputed
But hasn't oor noble birkie (a) a red nose (b) an angry man (c) a criminal conviction
Walks like a duck and talks like a duck thats aboot to lose it's livelihood and subsidised bar, he's not exactly gonna be welcome in an ex miners club in cumnock is he?
#
2012-02-04 15:43
"Walks like a duck and talks like a duck thats aboot to lose it's livelihood and subsidised bar, he's not exactly gonna be welcome in an ex miners club in cumnock is he?"
Yes, I think the good folk of Cumnock also send their offspring to university.
Yes, I think the good folk of Cumnock also send their offspring to university.
#
2012-02-04 02:00
O/T- but still about education.
What jokers!!!!!!- To think I used to buy this newspaper.
It was just a matter of time!- ‘SNP accused’
scotsman.com/.../...
What jokers!!!!!!- To think I used to buy this newspaper.
It was just a matter of time!- ‘SNP accused’
scotsman.com/.../...
#
2012-02-04 20:06
Yes Mille I was a faithful Scotsman reader until it fell into the hands of the Barclay/Neill combo then I switched to the Herald. After a while I turned away from that (it was the infamy moment that did it) and found Newsnet..... now I'm a happy bunny.
I read recently (here) that a few folks have started to buy the Sunday Herald again but frankly they've had their chance and blew it. I'm NOT wanting pro SNP, I just want balance with the pedigree of the contributor visible. I'd also like the articles to be without hysteria. Too much to ask of the "heavy-weight" Scottish media? Yes indeed.
PS recently overheard two senior people in my company talking about stopping buying the Sunday Post (usual justification for buying it - Scottish institution, family etc) but they were objecting to the tone and biased reporting against AS and his gov....interesting times indeed. It might be the Sunday Past before much longer.
I read recently (here) that a few folks have started to buy the Sunday Herald again but frankly they've had their chance and blew it. I'm NOT wanting pro SNP, I just want balance with the pedigree of the contributor visible. I'd also like the articles to be without hysteria. Too much to ask of the "heavy-weight" Scottish media? Yes indeed.
PS recently overheard two senior people in my company talking about stopping buying the Sunday Post (usual justification for buying it - Scottish institution, family etc) but they were objecting to the tone and biased reporting against AS and his gov....interesting times indeed. It might be the Sunday Past before much longer.
#
2012-02-04 10:43
These guys have a right cheek, afterall they benefitted from free university education in the past. My personal view is that whilst free higher education is excellent, and we should not get rid of it, I am not sure how sustainable it is in the long run. The problem here is that once they get their changes on to the statute book, it is difficult to turn it around.
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