by Hazel Lewry

Lord Wallace of Tankerness, while discussing the legality, or in his learned view the illegality, of the Scottish government applying democratic principles without Westminster's permission, stated the rule of law should and must prevail.

Significantly his perspective was one of outlawing, or stopping democracy as being unlawful, at least with respect to a Scots poll.  For many reasons Holyrood can never allow the precedent of Westminster deciding this. It might be difficult if not impossible to undo.

We must agree with Jim Wallace, the rule of law should be paramount.  In this the ermine clad lord was undoubtedly correct, but there is a significant exception in any functional democracy.

The sovereign will of the people must take precedence over the law of the land, for in its most basic terms the law exists only to serve the sovereign will.  That expressed will should also operate within international law.

This is where Scots and English exist under two entirely different systems.  This difference between individual and parliamentary sovereignty is so significant, so fundamental it amounts to a square peg being bashed into a round hole.

In using the rule of law to challenge the Scottish Government's plans Lord Tankerness is walking on quicksand.  There are various degrees of law, with UK law decidedly subordinate to international law. Westminster has affirmed this by according to multiple treaties.

Arguably UK law is subordinate to Scots law, the Union is after all sworn to protect it.

The question to be examined is a simple one indeed, does domestic law or international law hold force majeure or domain here, and can we easily define the reasoning behind the arguments being used by either side.

International law is very clear about national territorial integrity, it's also very clear about the rights of peoples to self determination.  The Wallace and Cameron interpretation appears to be that Scotland falls under domestic territorial law, like Yorkshire or Sussex.  They have failed to publish evidence for this assertion.

The Scottish government and the EU appear just as clear that the poll falls under international law.

The fact that the EU is effectively siding with the Scots government on this issue may be an indicator for Wallace and Cameron, except they seem incapable of understanding even language as direct as "an independent Scotland would need only a simple majority to enter the EU".  Europe certainly isn't entering the fray directly yet, but it does appear to be lacing up its gloves in preparation.

The clear inference here from the EU is that Scotland's referendum is Scotland's right as an ancient nation.  The fact it might also reveal some of the machinations of internal EU politics regarding certain vetos recently exercised is unlikely to be simply a coincidence, unless your name is David Cameron.

The legality aspect above also has a fundamental bearing on the upcoming referendum in the autumn of 2014.  For many it's about independence or union.  One side is determined to have it, the other initially to stop it, now to control it.

There are stalwarts on both sides, trying very hard to sway as many to their cause as can be managed.  These issues are also both tied into the domestic-international argument.

In the referendum campaign it's relatively simple to eliminate these polarised positions and eliminate the need for a referendum on independence or union at all.  It simply takes the effort of those concerned to realize that there's only one reason a constitutional poll is upon us.

It's because of what happened in 1707.  We all agree on it, but few among us seem to understand it fully.

What happened in 1707, then again in 1999, settles the national / international aspect of the legal argument.  It also clarifies the stance of adherents or antagonists to either cause.

In 1707 we had the bilateral Treaty of Union. It was between two nation states.

International law clearly acknowledges that bilateral treaties can be ended by either signatory with proper notice.  If they couldn't it's highly unlikely any country would ever sign up to one.

The Union treaty contained twenty five articles, condensed and summarized here.

Article 1 was specifically about the name of the new kingdom, to be Great Britain.  Article 1 is worth noting because the name has been changed more than once, this original amalgamated kingdom no longer exists.  The Union parliament also had no clear authority to change the articles of Union, only the constituent nations could do that.

Article 2 provided for the succession of the House of Hanover, it’s void because the House of Hanover is defunct.

Article 3 provided for the creation of the one, unified, parliament of Great Britain.  Article three is the crux of the matter, it must be repealed, reaffirmed or renegotiated.

Articles 4 through 15 and 17,18 gave subjects freedom of trade and navigation as they equalized taxation and duties, if we’re both members of the EU or EFT it’s automatic.

Article 16 required the introduction of a common currency for Great Britain, subsequently effected through the 1707-1710 Scottish recoinage.  Leaving article 16 in place, Osborne's attempts at scaremongering over usage of the pound are somewhat irrelevant.

Article 19 provided for the continuation and protection of Scotland's separate legal system. Article 19 appears to be fine right where it is.

Article 20, 22 and 23 provided for the protection of offices for life, parliamentary representation and the rights of peers of the realm.  These articles certainly appear to be irrelevant without article 3, though possibly not to such as Lord Tankerness.

Article 21 simply provides for the protection of the rights of royal burghs.

Article 24 provided for the creation of a new Great Seal for Great Britain.

Article 25 provides that all laws of either kingdom that may be inconsistent with the Articles in the Treaty are to be declared void.  Again it hinges on article 3.

Summing up there’s only one significant area needing attention.

Article 3.

This clarifies for us a situation which is perhaps one of the biggest cons in history.  For almost three centuries Westminster has managed to convince many, if not most, Scots that the nation of Scotland effectively ceased to exist in May 1707.

It didn't.  Scotland simply ceased to have independent global representation.  It devolved statehood, as did England.  It did not relinquish nationhood.

The treaty noted above simply created one new state from two existing nation states, there is nothing in the treaty about abolishing the constituent nations.  The nations therefore continued although the states were suspended.

The critical aspect is that for Scotland at least, the individual independent functioning of the state was adjourned or suspended, not ceased for all time or closed permanently.

That is the functional legal difference between Scotland and Yorkshire or Sussex.

As a nation Scots were always at liberty to resume the condition of nation state.  They simply had to discover a voice.

That was made clear when Winnie Ewing re-opened parliament in 1999 with the words “The Scottish Parliament, adjourned on the 25th day of March in the year 1707, is hereby reconvened”.  These words were not contested by Westminster.

The first significant part of the restoration of Scotland to statehood arguably took place in 1999.

“Reserved” in the Scotland Act is therefore simply a word, a word that has no worth in international law.  Under international law, in theory, the Scottish Government could at any time and with proper notice withdraw from such sections of the Treaty of Union as still have relevance, namely article 3.

That the Scottish government are looking to do this by additional democratic mandate is beyond fair and reasonable, that they are being threatened with prevention is a self evident contravention of international law and policy, a breach of the United Nations charter to which Westminster is a signatory and a breach of the Vienna Convention on treaty law to which Westminster is also a signatory.

The fact that the treaty was implemented prior to the convention does not remove Scotland’s ability to revoke or re-open it.  It simply means any amendment must be in accordance with current international law regarding international treaties.

The Scottish Government, couching this poll in the language of an independence referendum seems ridiculous, in its most simple and basic terms it's an international treaty renegotiation or termination.

The only beneficiary of the independence referendum terminology is Westminster; it improperly legitimizes the claim of dominion in the minds of many.

The Scottish constitutional poll should be about the 1707 treaty, specifically article 3.  It should perhaps be a three option referendum; it just might be the questions now proposed are the wrong questions.

If it were to be a three part poll, it should ask if we strike, amend or affirm the current status of the Union Treaty with regards to section 3.

To strike article three of the Union Treaty would inherently restore all sovereign parliamentary powers to Edinburgh.  Everything else opens for negotiation afterwards.

Such a question would force examination of the history of the Union, current benefits and detractions, but most importantly it would be clear, concise, lawful, and democratic, dealing directly with the reason Scots find themselves in the situation they do today.

Comments  

 
# graememcallan 2012-01-19 04:43
Hazel, your analysis is spot on, as usual
 
 
# 357ms 2012-01-19 08:41
Oh dear.

Here we go again, rooting and snuffling about in 300 year-old documents for justification.

Strange that the author does not provide the ACTUAL TEXT of article 1, which she claims is only about a "name".

www.legislation.gov.uk/.../I

"That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England shall upon the first day of May next ensuing the date hereof and forever after be United into One Kingdom..."

Still think it's just about a "name"?

Is the rest of your analysis up to this quality standard?
 
 
# Mei 2012-01-19 18:36
SM753 !!!!
 
 
# deepwater 2012-01-19 19:54
357ms.

Indeed - as was proven from 1603 through 1707 it is entirely feasible to have one kingdom with two constituent nation states.

Or is your argument this is not possible?

It was not "strange" that the full text was not included - in a simple english conversion it was just an irrelevance.

The article above does not contend or dispute article 1 of the treaty. If we retain Betty, then article 1 stands. As our elected representatives have not made this an issue on either side - why should you?

There will remain one Kingdom.

In fact I recall Alex Salmond specifically informing Elizabeth she'd still be Queen of Scots (note the distinction, OF Scots, the people or of England, the country)

Yes - article 1 is just about a name - it was about a name of two kingdoms to be formally United under one crown.

Article 1 would NOT be just about a name if full sovgereignty and all decisions ultimately rested in the monarch - if we were an ABSOLUTE monarchy.
As a CONSTITUTIONAL monarchy the next step is where true sovereignty lies.

In Scotland it's with the people, in England it's with the Parliament.

Just as plain in text and content as article 2, which dealt with who would wear that crown.

Now - if you're wanting to get rid of the Monarch in favour of a republic, or try to find one of the old Stewarts, perhaps maybe a Hamilton, Douglass or Hume who were closely related and enthrone them in Holyrood, we'd have room for discussion under article 1.

Absent that assertion article 1 is moot.
 
 
# Macart 2012-01-20 07:03
:0) Like.
 
 
# Saltire Groppenslosh 2012-01-19 20:04
It's still an international treaty. Of course it would have those words. Are you saying that by the treaty saying this that it can't be broken by either party?

I think you need a darkened room my friend.

International law is what it's all about and there's nothing you can do about it apart from arranging to have someone invade us.

Scotland has the right to self determination.

Why would you say anything so obtuse as you have in your post. Are you Scottish???

Away and think of something else!
 
 
# Jim Johnston 2012-01-20 13:58
Oh dear 357ms,

You're on a hiding to nothing from Hazel son.
 
 
# tom 2012-01-19 08:57
And no matter how often the mouldering threats about legality of the referendum or right to EU membership are rebutted, the Unionists, following the Josef Goebbels rulebook, will keep on repeating them.
 
 
# fynesider 2012-01-19 13:23
"As ever Hazel this is clear and concise> Just a pity that the MSM don't publish it!
 
 
# Shagpile 2012-01-19 09:15
Given that the People are sovereign in Scotland, does that not make the Act Of Union unlawful as it was never ratified by the People?
 
 
# UpSpake 2012-01-19 09:30
Fundamentally Hazel you have nailed it. Westminster breaches both the UN Convention and the precepts of the Council of Europe in respect of democracy in identifiable nation states whether or not they are in any form of union with each other. The trend to overlordship by the English over the aspirations of the Scots goes back a long long way before 1707 but the mindset still prevails today.
We continually play the London game by giving their mince airtime. Perhaps the compliance and ignorance of the political classes and their commentators helps fuel the daily errors. Perhaps too, the inexperience of the SNP leadership in international affairs and law precludes them from appealing to these bodies, the UN and the CofE for assistance against the perfidious aspects of London/establishment interference in our destiny. The SDA have an excellent series of documents on their web-site which if anyone would care to visit it would set the matter out straightforward ly and succinctly for the Scots government of the day, to follow.
All it would take would be for Mr. Salmond to declare the Treaty of Union as no longer fit for purpose to set the political wires ablaze. Simple action, massive implications. Bring Cameron down to size in an instant.
 
 
# Macart 2012-01-19 09:42
Hazel, that's an absolute clonker of an article. Very much agree on how you view the situation with Cameron and Wallace. They are pulling the biggest bluff so far and the air of relaxed confidence by the FM on last FMQs and since his lordship's legal challenge does not bode well for them when the consultation paper emerges.

As we are all aware, Westminster has a lot to lose here and they've spent a lot of years carefully undermining our confidence and our national identity. Do you believe they will be desperate enough to try a legal challenge anyway?

Its an all or nothing gamble if they do, because if it goes wrong, it'll go wrong big time. Firstly they will obviously galvanise a huge swell of independence minded public opinion in Scotland, devo max in or out won't even be an issue. On top of that should they lose the challenge they will bring down holy fire from the international community who will treat them like pariahs. Surely they wouldn't risk all that?
 
 
# deepwater 2012-01-20 13:31
McCart:

My opinion, for what it is worth, is that Westminster will NOT try a direct legal challenge.

I do believe however that they will look kindly to supporting a private one - perhaps even to the extent of assisting it in some covert manner.

That is what I believe to be the fundamental difference between the political reality and the practical reality.

I believe the UK government will not do this if, and only if, they percieve it to be a fundemental dealbreaker for the union.

I have this view simply because without direct implication its hard to see a downside to a legal challenge for the UG government - especially if its private one.

Saying it's hard to see a downside, doesn't mean there isn't one - it could be this would be expedited to an international level. If a decision goes against Westminster at international level the cat's out the bag and the Union is over anyway.

Summing - a sane, rational, thinking administration would not go there, they would simply let democracy run its unfettered unbiased course. Sadly, sane, rational and thinking are not words often applied to Westminster.
 
 
# Macart 2012-01-20 14:27
Thanks Hazel, hadn't considered any private challenge scenario, but fully agree with the summation.
 
 
# robmcdonald 2012-01-19 10:16
Given Jim Wallace's signature on the Claim of Right he's a great big hyppocrit and should be held to account for trying to subvert the Claim of the Scottish People to the right to determine their own kind of government
 
 
# Macart 2012-01-19 11:57
I wonder how many other signatories of that document are siding with Westminster at the moment? Somebody fetch an economy sized bucket of Tippex! :0)
 
 
# jafurn 2012-01-19 17:59
Why did the SNP Government not fulfill the promise made at the conference and reintroduce this into the Parliament...or am I missing something here?
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-19 18:15
I also don't know what the status of this is.
 
 
# Holebender 2012-01-19 19:05
I read it was being done next week, to coincide with the consultation document. I have also wondered why they didn't do it when they said they would or why they haven't explained what they were doing.
 
 
# Macart 2012-01-19 19:50
I believe its on the agenda for this year, but I couldn't tell you when.
 
 
# bringiton 2012-01-19 20:18
Pretty sure it will be next week and I would imagine prior to the consultation document being published on the 25th.
 
 
# Macart 2012-01-20 07:05
Does anyone else get the impression that the two events are not coincidental?
 
 
# tartanfever 2012-01-19 10:28
Nice to hear the alternative point of view to Westminster's.

Another great article Hazel, thank you.
 
 
# Caledonian Lass 2012-01-19 10:47
Westminster has repeatedly broken the terms of the Treaty of Union over the years.

The introduction of the Poll Tax in Scotland a year prior to England (using Scotland as a testing ground)under Thatcher's government was one
example of this as no part of the union should have been treated differently from the other.

They've blatantly been 'robbing Scotland blind' over the years but at least now people are beginning to realise what's been going on and, hopefully, there will be a massive yes vote for Scottish independence.
 
 
# Robert Louis 2012-01-19 11:05
Indeed, In its arrogance, over the last three hundred + years, Westminster has repeatedly ignored the terms of the treaty of union.
 
 
# Robert Louis 2012-01-19 10:33
Yesterday, 18th January 2012, in the House of commons, Questions to the Prime Minister, David Cameron;


Q8. [90168] Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con):

Does the Prime Minister agree with me that in this the 30-year anniversary of the Falklands war the actions of the Argentine Government are wholly deplorable?

Will he remind Argentina that it lost the Falklands war and that it is up to the Falklanders to determine their own future?

The Prime Minister:

First of all, it is very important that we commemorate the Falklands war this year—the 30th anniversary—and remember all those who served and fought so hard and some who gave their lives and did not come home. We should remember all those people this year.

The absolutely vital point is that we are clear that the future of the Falkland islands is a matter for the people themselves. As long as they want to remain part of the United Kingdom and be British, they should be able to do so. That is absolutely key.

I am determined to make sure that our defences and everything else are in order, which is why the National Security Council discussed the issue yesterday.

The key point is that we support the Falkland islanders’ right to self-determination. I would argue that what the Argentinians have said recently is far more like colonialism, as these people want to remain British and the Argentinians want them to do something else.

[My bolding]

Source;

publications.parliament.uk/.../...



The question therefore begs to be asked of the Tories and their libdem lapdugs, does this same principle of self determination not also apply to Scotland?? Or is Scotland still a colony?
 
 
# jafurn 2012-01-19 12:08
He (Mr Cameron) has said this stuff before and the contrast with his efforts on Scotland are striking.

"David Cameron has promised the Falklands Islands he will defend their sovereignty in a supportive Christmas message, amid growing tensions with Argentina. "


telegraph.co.uk/.../...

He said.....
“Let me be absolutely clear,” he said in a radio address. “We will always maintain our commitment to you on any question of sovereignty.

“Your right to self-determination is the cornerstone of our policy. We will never negotiate on the sovereignty of the Falkland Islands unless you, the Falkland Islanders, so wish. No democracy could ever do otherwise.”

He went on to say....
The Prime Minister also emphasised that any oil and gas found in the Falklands would belong to the islanders, not the UK Treasury.

“Britain will always support your right to develop your own natural resources for the benefit of all those who live in the Falklands,” he said.
 
 
# pa_broon74 2012-01-19 13:07
I wouldn't mind being a fly on the wall in downing street if the falklanders turned round and said "thanks but no thanks Dave."

Wonder how they'd spin their way out of that?
 
 
# Jester 2012-01-19 21:00
Quoting Robert Louis:
Yesterday, 18th January 2012, in the House of commons, Questions to the Prime Minister, David Cameron;


Q8. [90168] Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con):

Does the Prime Minister agree with me that in this the 30-year anniversary of the Falklands war the actions of the Argentine Government are wholly deplorable?

Will he remind Argentina that it lost the Falklands war and that it is up to the Falklanders to determine their own future?

The Prime Minister:

First of all, it is very important that we commemorate the Falklands war this year—the 30th anniversary—and remember all those who served and fought so hard and some who gave their lives and did not come home. We should remember all those people this year.

The absolutely vital point is that we are clear that the future of the Falkland islands is a matter for the people themselves. As long as they want to remain part of the United Kingdom and be British, they should be able to do so. That is absolutely key.

I am determined to make sure that our defences and everything else are in order, which is why the National Security Council discussed the issue yesterday.

The key point is that we support the Falkland islanders’ right to self-determination. I would argue that what the Argentinians have said recently is far more like colonialism, as these people want to remain British and the Argentinians want them to do something else.

[My bolding]

Source;

publications.parliament.uk/.../...



The question therefore begs to be asked of the Tories and their libdem lapdugs, does this same principle of self determination not also apply to Scotland?? Or is Scotland still a colony?

I've said elsewhere, give the Falkland Islanders a referendum, and ask both London and Argentina to abide by the outcome. Only the London Government can't abide referendums...
 
 
# lochside 2012-01-20 14:29
Absolutely correct. Again, nobody in the MSM picked that up..surprise surprise.
 
 
# robmcdonald 2012-01-19 10:53
The UK Government's right to self determination only includes the right to be British not to be Non-British...
 
 
# The_Duke 2012-01-19 11:00
Great article that effectively shows that Westminster doesnt have a legal leg to stand on with its opposition to the referendum.....

Yet Cameron had the kahunas yesterday to come out and say he'd back the Falklands right to self determination, should they wish to choose that path..... Unbelieveable!
 
 
# Robert Louis 2012-01-19 11:02
After a bit of digging, the Falklands really become rather interesting, in relation to Scotland, and its desire for at the very least fiscal autonomy.

Take this excerpt for example, from a speech by a member of the Falkland Islands legislative assembly, The honourable Emma Edwards, to the UN on 25th June 2010;



"The Falkland Islands have never been a grant in aid colony, depending on the UK for aid. We have relied on the UK for defence and after the 1982 conflict with Argentina, the UK assisted the Islands in the rebuilding of parts of the infrastructure.

We have no national debt. Although the world recession has affected us our investments, they are starting to recover.
All money raised by the Falkland Islands Government is invested in the good of the Islands. No money is sent to the United Kingdom and nor do they request any.

The fishing, tourism, agricultural and the oil exploration currently being undertaking in Falkland Island waters, has been driven by the people and government of the Falkland Islands, not the United Kingdom.

The offshore a hydrocarbon industry has been developing since 1995. Six wells were drill in 1998. Currently the Islands have a rig drilling at least an additional eight exploratory wells. The Falkland Island Government has robust environmental legislation in place. The wells are engineered to the same high standard as those in the North Sea, which have a very good safety record.

Any revenues from this industry will go to the people of the Falkland Islands. Not to the United Kingdom, as Argentina seems to be suggesting in the world press."



Source;

falklands.gov.fk/.../...
 
 
# alang 2012-01-19 11:02
Hazel you have done it yet again, clear, concise and to the point.

When I was younger living in London, before the Falklands war, oil was known to be around the Falklands by insiders in the Westminster Government, which was the real reason to fight the war.

When Independence comes, and the financial arguments start, what of future oil revenues from the Falklands I ask? Are they in the "British pot"?
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-19 15:30
Cameron said some time ago that the Falkland Oil was the Falkland's property and the UK would not grab it.
 
 
# dhothersall 2012-01-19 11:42
This is an interesting piece though I do think there are some dodgy assertions within it.

First of all, you cannot de facto give the present devolved parliament, created by an Act of the unified parliament, the status of a representation of the sovereignty of the Scottish people. The parliament, its powers and its elections are all the result of UK legislation. The fact that Winnie Ewing's words were not challenged by Westminster adds no credence to this assertion, as I suspect you would acknowledge. Therefore the present "Scottish Executive" (as defined in the Scotland Act) cannot act as if it were a sovereign Scottish government, no matter that it has chosen to refer to itself with those words.

Second, the idea that the Scottish nation remains extant but in a dormant state is difficult to justify given the 300 year history of Westminster sovereignty over Scotland, and the multitude of UK legislation passed in that time which altered the terms of the treaty of union in all manner of ways.

The Scotland which passed the treaty of union no longer exists, and certainly cannot be said to pertain in the person of the present Scottish government.

All that said, the idea of a referendum focusing on article 3 is a fascinating one and I'd be interested to hear more views from the union side of the argument on that prospect.
 
 
# dhothersall 2012-01-19 14:16
One other thought - the 1707 parliament which ratified the treaty of union was not a representation of the sovereignty of the Scottish people either.
 
 
# Mei 2012-01-19 18:42
It was packed with bribe takers.
The Scottish people rioted afterwards.
The Scottish Parliament was never dissolved.
 
 
# deepwater 2012-01-19 20:19
dhothersall

Firstly, the term "executive" is redundant - both London and Holyrood use the term "Parliament" and its fallen into common useage. May it be suggested you cease talking down MY country and move into the present age.

The overriding factor is the expression of free will by the soverign people of Scotland. A free and fair referendum would have to be adhered to absent a delaration voiding democracy?

You do appear to be inferring democracy and the democratic will isn't worth diddly.

Winnie Ewing as a duly elected representative of Scots making such a proclamation and enshrining it for posterity certainly adds credence, that it was undisputed [for whatever reason] arguably makes the de-facto case.

Moving onto your next argument - if I loan you the family jewels for safe keeping I can ask for them back anytime - the same goes for powers. Duration and where you choose to store the same is irrelevant.

With the Scots being sovereign that sovereignty is only loaned to parliament.

All it takes thereafter to reclaim it is an avenue where Scots can again find a voice after three centuries of intentional gagging - just recall, "No you can't have a referendum" to "Now you better have it quickly, and we'll decide what and when".

I know of no other nation these acts would be credible - even the Soviets had to let go in the end.

Your argument starts well "That the Scotland which passed the treaty of Union no longer exists" - but then fails utterly.

This Scotland is the same Scotland, the land has not changed. The only difference is that her people who were denied a voice three centuries past (remember, the treaty was signed in hiding, and the people disenfranchised ) the decendants of those poor folks who rioted for years after the 1707 signing are now finding they again have a voice.

I've answered differently elsewhere to your arguments, this appears to close your contentions in yet another way.
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-19 20:27
Correction: The change was from Executive to Goverment.
 
 
# Mei 2012-01-20 10:29
Correction: Government.
 
 
# dhothersall 2012-01-20 15:37
Quoting deepwater:
Firstly, the term "executive" is redundant - both London and Holyrood use the term "Parliament" and its fallen into common useage. May it be suggested you cease talking down MY country and move into the present age.


A catastrophic reaction there, in which your knee jerked so high as to obscure your view.

I was not talking down your, or my, country by referring to the Executive. I was pointing out that it is called that in the Scotland Act and it is a creature of the Scotland Act which is an Act of the Westminster Parliament. I happily refer to the Scottish Government on an everyday basis. My point was that piece of renaming does nothing to change the nature of the executive. It remains defined by the Scotland Act, whatever it is colloquially called.

Your entire argument is predicated on the notion that the present Scottish Government is an expression of the sovereignty of the Scottish people and therefore empowered to act in any way on their behalf. The fact is that what we call the Scottish Government is an executive set up by an Act of the Westminster parliament. The very fact that it is not an expression of the sovereignty of the Scottish people is the reason why you and others are campaigning for a yes vote in the upcoming referendum. If it were already such a government, Scotland would already be independent.

Quoting deepwater:
Winnie Ewing as a duly elected representative of Scots making such a proclamation and enshrining it for posterity certainly adds credence, that it was undisputed [for whatever reason] arguably makes the de-facto case.


Winnie Ewing was a representative of Highlands and Islands region when she spoke. She did not speak on behalf of all Scots, and there is absolutely no basis beyond wishful thinking to suggest that her words made any case at all.

Quoting deepwater:
This Scotland is the same Scotland, the land has not changed. The only difference is that her people who were denied a voice three centuries past (remember, the treaty was signed in hiding, and the people disenfranchised ) the decendants of those poor folks who rioted for years after the 1707 signing are now finding they again have a voice.


Poetic, beautiful even, but that voice can only be heard in a referendum. It cannot be heard in the Scottish Parliament. However much you wish it were otherwise, the devolved parliament is a creature of Westminster sovereignty, not Scottish sovereignty. If it were the former then independence would be merely the stroke of a pen away. And I suspect even you would accept that it isn't as simple as that.
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-19 14:36
Duncan, All our elected representatives , MPs at Westminster and MSPs at Holyrood, are privileged to represent the sovereignty of the Scottish people. They have no mandate to give that sovereignty away.

"300 year history of Westminster sovereignty over Scotland" - no!, sovereignty lies with the people of Scotland.

"The Scotland which passed the treaty of union no longer exists" - are you denying the existence of Scotland or the demise of one Scotland and the creation of a different one?

What a convoluted and wrong-headed argument.
 
 
# dhothersall 2012-01-19 14:50
Not so. MPs at Westminster may represent the sovereignty of the Scottish people in the sovereign parliament of the UK, but MSPs, like councillors, are elected under rules originated in and defined by the UK parliament, with no sovereign responsibilitie s or representation. The Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government are constructs of Westminster, elected under rules defined by Westminster. They do not constitute a representation of sovereignty.

The parliament of an independent Scotland might indeed have MSPs representing the sovereignty of the Scottish people; but the devolved parliament cannot possibly have.
 
 
# Macart 2012-01-19 15:05
You've made one or two interesting points yourself. However, looking at them in turn; the devolved parliament is also a conduit to Westminster for the devolved state or region of the union. The party in power at the moment received a mandate from the people of this devolved State/region to govern in their name based on manifesto pledges one of which was to hold a referendum on increased powers/independence. As we know already the people of Scotland are sovereign and their devolved parliament are carrying out their wishes. Then of course there is the Claim of Right, I'm sure there are the signatures of one or two politicians on there recognising said sovereignty.

Secondly 300 years or 3000 there doesn't appear to be a time limit clause on Scotland's statehood written into the constitution only the dissolving (pause) of its parliament which has now been reconvened. If the people of Scotland were happy with the union and the devolution settlement as it stands surely they would have voted for a party who did not have a referendum as part of its manifesto?
 
 
# dhothersall 2012-01-19 15:18
If MSPs are sovereign representatives then councillors must be too. I don't think there's justification to give either set such status. I certainly don't deny the claim of right, I merely suggest that the Scottish Executive of the Scottish Parliament, whatever they now call themselves, are creatures of UK statute, not Scottish sovereignty. The Scottish people in a referendum will be exercising sovereignty, certainly. I just think the Scottish Parliament and Executive cannot.

And I'd repeat that Winnie Ewing's assertion was really nothing more than a symbolic gesture. The Scottish Parliament bears no resemblance to the body which was dissolved 300 odd years ago and cannot reasonably be assumed to be its reconvention.
 
 
# Macart 2012-01-19 16:53
And there's the rub in both cases, the Claim of Right.

Either this document stating sovereignty of the people of Scotland and their right to choose their preferred governance is upheld or it is not. Firstly the document makes it fairly clear that there is a nation state of Scotland and secondly that the people of said state have the right to choose their governance. Also whether Holyrood bears any resemblance to a bowl of fruit makes no difference, it is the peoples conduit to Westminster on the constitution.

Westminster gave it the power to hold its own elections, hold assembly, see to the governance of said state/region, it didn't lay down any rules about what you could or couldn't put to the people in a manifesto. Not unless free will has been repealed recently. The people were given free choice basically saying are you happy with what you have, do want something different? As I stated before, if we were happy with our lot and the governance of Westminster we wouldn't be here now.
 
 
# dhothersall 2012-01-19 17:06
We agree on the claim of right, so we can set that to one side. But the make-up and function of the devolved Scottish Parliament is very specifically defined in UK law, and one thing it definitely isn't is any form of constitutional conduit to Westminster. It is a primary legislature with specific competences, but constitutional issues are reserved from it.

Your second para comes dangerously close to asserting that in voting for the SNP in May Scots were voting solely for the indy referendum. This is manifestly not the case; indeed the SNP's own campaign focused on how they were running the devolved government, and barely touched on independence at all.

There would be no need for a referendum were the present Scottish Parliament sovereign, so let's put that idea to bed.
 
 
# Macart 2012-01-20 07:24
What I am saying is very much that the Claim of right is the be all and end all in Scotland. It does not recognise the sovereignty of the crown only the express will of the Scottish people. By your reasoning also if the Scottish parliament does not represent that will then they would have no voice within Britain and no way of challenging Westminster government, or are you saying that Holyrood is a pretendy wee parliament, a waste of time that should never have been? Lastly yes I am also saying that the SNP weren't just elected because of the competence they showed in their first term. All parties have a manifesto, their pledges and promises. This particular pledge is their reason for living. Are you now saying that the electorate didn't know it was there and that if they did then didn't really think the SNP would go through with it?
 
 
# dhothersall 2012-01-20 15:40
I'm saying the SNP campaigned for the May election on the basis of their competence in governing devolved Scotland and their plans for continuing to do so. Independence was barely mentioned. And indeed polling shows that a significant proportion of those who voted SNP in May would vote against independence.

So it is simply untrue to assert that May's election says anything about Scots' views on the constitution. That's why we need a referendum.
 
 
# Holebender 2012-01-19 19:25
Quoting dhothersall:
If MSPs are sovereign representatives then councillors must be too.



Councillors only represent pieces of Scotland, the Parliament represents the whole country. Only the Parliament in Holyrood represents the whole of Scotland and nothing else.

Just because Wastemonster has been getting away with ignoring the rules for 300 years, it doesn't make them right or sovereign over Scotland.

btw, you'd better give Michael Moore a slap for calling the Scottish Government the Scottish Government in his consultation document. The only people who insist on saying "executive" and pretending to be all legalistic about it are people who seek to belittle the Scottish Government. That's your motive too, isn't it Duncan?
 
 
# dhothersall 2012-01-19 19:40
Wastemonster. Brilliant. I bet you use Liebore too, don't you? Great stuff.

MSPs only represent pieces of Scotland too, some large pieces, some small pieces. There is no difference in the argument for MSP or councillors.

In using the term Scottish Executive I was trying to be accurate. I happily refer to the Scottish Government as such on a day to day basis, but the point I was making was that this article attempts to pass off the present Scottish Government as equivalent to sovereign governments of other nations, when in fact this Executive is an agency defined by a sovereign parliament (Westminster) but is itself not sovereign.

The point is simple. If the present Scottish Government did have the power this article ascribes to it, then there would be no need for a referendum at all - independence would already be here.
 
 
# art1001 2012-01-20 18:03
It would seem to me normal to an objective, scientific outsider that Edinburgh, the Capital and home of the National Parliament is the obvious to place look to find where the will of the sovereign Scottish people is most completely argued and expressed.

Sure we send a dwindling number of representatives to London at a UK level and a few to Brussels at a European level but that does not mean these institutions are really representing our sovereign will. Take Edinburgh away then you might have a point.

For example, if you look for where the sovereign will of Greece is expressed you would tend to look at Athens not Brussels. Geography for me is kind of the clincher.
 
 
# deepwater 2012-01-19 20:26
dhothersall:

The difference between councillors and MSP's is fairly fundamental.

MSP's are elected at a national general election to represent in a national parliament.

Councillors are not.

Both sets are gifted powers by the people - one set of gifts simply overshadows the other.

The only way to contest otherwise is to state that

1. Scots have never been a sovereign people.

2. Scots gifted their individual soverignty to another nation.

3. Scotland is not now and never has been a country.

It doesn't seem that either 1,2 or 3 apply?
 
 
# Macart 2012-01-20 07:43
I've been trying to make that point above, seems like forever. Cut to the chase as usual Hazel.
 
 
# dhothersall 2012-01-20 15:46
Not true at all. MSPs and councillors are, constitutionall y, very similar. The Scottish Parliament is not a sovereign body or an independent body. It is a subservient body to the UK parliament, just as councils are subservient bodies to it.

I don't think your 1, 2 and 3 enumerate the possibilities at all, because I don't think you are prepared to accept the reality of what the present Scottish Parliament is. Which is very weird to me, because it is surely the fact that the Scottish Parliament is not competent to exercise the sovereign will of the Scottish people that your entire campaign is designed to address!
 
 
# deepwater 2012-01-28 19:51
As the parliament of Scotland it makes the decisions for Scotland -

You are correct however - it is not a soverign parliament for Scots.

Neither however is Westminster.

Parliamentary sovereignty is a purely english concept that has no validity in Scots law.

Simply look at the recent wheel clamping issue to understand fully where sovereignty lies.

Therefore you are far more fundamentally incorrect than correct.

Also refer to the newly affirmed claim of right - that makes 1320, 1689, 1989 and 2012.

Any of these will spell out to you - very clearly - where sovereignty lies.
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-19 15:40
Duncan, you know that the Scotland Act was only effective when it was brought into effect in Scots Law when Donald Dewar made The Scotland Act 1998 (Commencement) Order 1998 in Edinburgh?
 
 
# dhothersall 2012-01-19 15:53
Not sure why you think the commencement order being made in Edinburgh makes any difference. It was made by Donald Dewar because the Scottish Office led the bill.

Genuinely, if you're arguing that it could only be brought into force under Scots law then you're arguing that the entirety of devolution is unlawful, because the Scotland Act explicitly expresses the sovereignty of Westminster over the Scottish Parliament. It is UK law.
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-19 18:31
Whatever, Duncan. You must accept these are exciting times in Scotland. I think you will eventually "go native".
 
 
# bringiton 2012-01-19 15:57
What a ridiculous position to take.
You might as well say that,due to it's antiquity and people having moved on etc etc,the treaty which gave Gibralter to GB is now invalidated.
I don't think too many people of a unionist mind set would agree with that.
Treaties can only be invalidated when one of the signatories indicates that it is so.
 
 
# dhothersall 2012-01-19 16:02
A false comparison. Gibraltar did not sign the Treaty of Utrecht - Spain did.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-19 16:00
Ah! dhothersall, you presume too much.

The Declaration of Arbroath and the several, "Claims Of Rights". Are quite clear. As are the Treaty Of Union and the Scottish Act Of Union. In the first place there is nowhere is there any indication that other than two equal sovereign nations had agreed to unite as equals in a combined parliament. However, while English law is based upon the main premiss the monarch is sovereign and thus owned everything including the people as his/her subjects. As proven by, "The Royal Navy, Royal Air Force, Her Majesty's Parliament, et al. The whole premiss of the still independent Scots Law is based upon the fact, since the Declaration of Arbroath, (an internationally recognized documebt), was accepted by the then international authority. The acceptance of this document not only established, in international law, the Scotland as an independent SOVEREIGN nation, but that in Scotland the people of Scotland were Sovereign and the monarch was not. Furthermore, the sovereign Scottish people had the power to choose their monarch and to also sack him/her if they so wished. Since that time the only change is that England became a Constitutional monarchy. That mean their power too has become sovereign but in a manner that sees the monarchs sovereignty vested in the elected government of the people BUT THAT THE MONARCH REMAINS BY LAW THE HEAD OF STATE.

What that translates to in our modern times is this. There is no English Style Trespass Law in Scotland as the people, being sovereign, own sScotland. You cannot trespass on your own land. Even more up to date is that no private landowner in Scotland can clamp a vehicle on their land and demand paid to release it. They will be arrested and charged with Demanding money with menace.

So there you have it. The Scots, being sovereign, cannot have their sovereign rights taken away from them and one of those rights is to say who they delegate their sovereign rights to. They have thus not delegated The United Kingdom Parliament that power as Westminster does not have a Scottish mandate. However, Holyrood does have our mandate. English law does not allpy in Scotland and there really is no such thing as United Kingdom Law. There is only Scottish and English law and Westminster can olny legislate to change English law. Tough to destroy all your best held English views.
 
 
# dhothersall 2012-01-19 16:08
I do love "accepted by the then international authority". Why don't you mention what that international authority was? It still exists, after all, so by the logic of the above argument it is still the same authority.

Nevertheless, as I said I don't dispute the claim of right. What I do dispute is the idea that the devolved Scottish Parliament, created by Westminster under its sovereignty, somehow embodies Scottish sovereignty. And I'll bet not one of you was making that argument before the SNP won in 2007.

The present Scottish Government and Parliament is not sovereign. If it were, you would not need a vote for independence.
 
 
# Jimbo 2012-01-19 18:08
It's good to see you on here making some good points and asking some pertinent questions, Duncan.

Maybe you'll kindly reciprocate at Labour Hame, and for once, allow pertinent questions over there?
 
 
# dhothersall 2012-01-19 18:44
Questions pertinent to each article are always allowed when I'm moderating there (which isn't always).
 
 
# Jimbo 2012-01-20 13:31
Thanks for the reply, Duncan.
 
 
# pictishbeastie 2012-01-19 19:28
Well done Jimbo! A question that Duncan couldn't try to smart ass his way out of! LOL!
 
 
# jafurn 2012-01-19 18:41
D Hothersall In the end it WILL come down to the people and the people will in the end decide....

A long read but well worth it...

siol-nan-gaidheal.org/.../...


(extract)
It is sad that we have got to the point where we have to condemn an otherwise
intelligent and wise Justiciary; it is sad that a significant percentage of
Scottish sports fans are embarrassed by the flaunting of the Union flag in
association with Scottish teams; it is sad that many cut off BBC TV in disgust
as it closes its Scottish channel with `God save the Queen'; in short that the
imperial aspirations of the English have so divided the real British people, but
the saddest thing is that we have mostly ourselves to blame. Caesar immediately
noticed that you could set the tribes in Britain against each other and thus
rule them. To this the English have added the subtleties of economic control
with emphasis on job insecurity, enough dole only to maintain fags, booze and TV
addiction and the implanting of hopelessness in the young, but for their sake
let us find the guts to recover ourselves from the death process. After
thousands of years of struggle it is surely not our idea to die but we are
already on the down escalator and only extra effort is going to get us up again.
All differences must be put aside, at least until the immediate rescue is
complete, for although with our Celtic background we are sure to argue again in
the future, for the moment the only criterion is whether we want to be the
People of Scotland or not, and that means fighting for the day when we all carry
a `Kingdom of Scotland' passport. It can happen as soon as you want it.
Perhaps we can draw the necessary inspiration and encouragement from the
Estonian Declaration of Independence, made in 1918. Addressing Estonia it says
``You stand on the threshold of a hopeful future in which you shall be free and
independent in determining and directing your destiny. Begin building a home of
your own, ruled by law and order so as to be a worthy member within the family
of civilised nations. Sons and daughters of our homeland, let us unite as one
man in the sacred task of building our homeland. The sweat and blood shed by our
ancestors for this country demand it, and our future generations impose it upon
us as our sacred duty.'' In August 1991, one million Estonians threw off the
might of Russian dominance, even although half a million peasant stock had been
settled there to dull the breed.
Let us not await that......
 
 
# pa_broon74 2012-01-19 19:26
As I understand it, the sovereignity of the Scottish people was invested in the Scottish Grand Committee (on which all Sitting Scottish MP's sit, (knowingly or otherwise.)

I don't remember where I read that or if it is the case. If it is the case Duncan has a point. The question would then be, can the Scottish people withdraw their sovereignity and reinvest it in MSP's at the SG?

Since its our sovereignity (and we've etsablished that no one at Westminster including the Grand Committee can take it away.) It seems to me I can invest it in what ever elected body I see fit.

For what its worth, my soveriegnity lies with the Scottish parliament. I don't agree with much of anything Westminster does so they're not having it anymore.
 
 
# Holebender 2012-01-19 19:41
Dull the breed! Do we really need that sort of language?

I'm a mongrel - 50% Scots, 50% English by breeding, 100% Scottish by culture and outlook. Have I dulled the breed?
 
 
# tartanfever 2012-01-19 20:46
I think ultimately Ducan may have have a point. However, there are pertinent counter arguments, and I have no doubt that in the court of world public opinion, Westminster's interfering would be seen as nothing but the worse kind of imperialism.

Ultimately, the people of Scotland voted overwhelmingly for the SNP, more than any other party in any Parliament. The SNP have been given a clear and unarguable mandate to hold an independence referendum on their terms, legal or not. I don't know of one single SNP voter who voted for that referendum to be carried out by Westminster nor led by any unionist party. Any attempt from them to do so so or force their hand into the questioning or construction of that referendum should be greeted with the same accusations now being squared at Alex Salmond - FIX !

There is not one world organisation (UN, CoE etc) that would take the side of Westminster and if need be, I'm sure they could be called upon for assistance.

For whatever Duncan claims may be the 'rights' of a Westminster government, there are greater rights for self determination of peoples throughout the world that no Unionist party could tamper with.
 
 
# pa_broon74 2012-01-19 23:48
The points Duncan and many others in the unionist camp are making are predicated on UK Law.

The notion that Westminster can create courts, laws and statutes to frustrate the democratic rights and sovereignity of a people is (frankly) rubbish.

I would say again, if the people of Scotland are sovereign and it is not within the gift of The Grand Committee or Westminster in general to give that away, that trumps any new laws made or courts created which if we're being honest was done to frustrate any furtherance of devolution and ultimately independence.
 
 
# dhothersall 2012-01-20 15:52
I entirely agree with your second paragraph. I haven't made that argument and it would certainly be rubbish if I had. I say again I do not dispute the claim of right or the sovereignty of the Scottish people, and I think few people do.

But that does not mean that UK law disappears in a puff of smoke, or that we can unilaterally decide that a devolved body created under UK law can be magically transformed into an independent expression of Scottish sovereignty merely by wishing it were the case.

The Scottish Parliament is a devolved body created by UK law. You want to create an independent Scottish Parliament. If it was as simple as just deciding the present parliament is that parliament we wouldn't be having a referendum.
 
 
# Exile 2012-01-23 11:23
dhothersall, perhaps you could take off your English glasses. No-one's suggesting the Scottish Government or Parliament are sovereign. The people are sovereign, and the present Scottish Government has a clear mandate from the people. Part of that mandate is to hold a referendum on Scotland's constitutional future. The Government in Edinburgh is holding strictly to its undetstanding of both Scottish constitutional law and political reality by not going for UDI without the express authority of the people through a referendum. Seems both sensible and eminently practical to me. I see no implication therein that the Scottish Government, enjoying as it does a clear majority in a Parliament elected in a free and fair election under universal adult suffrage, is not entitled to withdraw from the Treaty of Union. But these are dangerous times for Scotland, and the SNP leadership clearly believe they would be best to have the express approval of the people for such a move.
 
 
# Moridura 2012-01-19 11:43
Great article, Hazel - keep 'em coming!


Peter
 
 
# pa_broon74 2012-01-19 13:13
I just wish more people would take the time to read stuff like this, instead they dismiss it as nationalist dogma.

Its legal fact, incontrovertabl e and above all; the truth. If unionists had the courage of their convictions they'd work within this framework and make their arguments for the union.

Subrosa on her blog had up a youtube clip of a chap reading a poem, I shared it on facebook, admittedly its a bit full on for my tastes (a bit swivel-eyed in places) but it got some of my friends very exercised, if they read this surely it would at least highlight the dishonesty of Westminster. Given that obvious, deliberate and vested dishonesty, how could they then continue to favour this odious union?

As always, impressed by Hazel's erudition and clarity.
 
 
# Suomi 2012-01-19 14:14
This is excellent an d just what we needed.
 
 
# Legerwood 2012-01-19 14:24
Quote:
Arguably UK law is subordinate to Scots law, the Union is after all sworn to protect it.


Not if Lord Wallace has his way. Front page of today's Herald - Lord Wallace is 'not persuaded' by Lord Justice Hamilton's argument that the Scottish Appeal Courts should be treated in the same way as the appeal courts of England and Wales with regard to the Supreme Court.

heraldscotland.com/.../...
 
 
# J Wil 2012-01-19 15:57
How can Wallace he do this with no evidence to back what he is saying?

"...not persuaded...", is not good enough.
 
 
# Legerwood 2012-01-19 16:13
He does it because he can - at least as far as he is concerned he can. But it is another own goal for the unionist cause. The prominence of the article on the Front page of the Herals also ensures it will be more widely noticed even if people do not buy the paper but just scan the front page as many do.
 
 
# Jester 2012-01-19 21:09
Quoting Legerwood:
He does it because he can - at least as far as he is concerned he can. But it is another own goal for the unionist cause. The prominence of the article on the Front page of the Herals also ensures it will be more widely noticed even if people do not buy the paper but just scan the front page as many do.

Because he's been bought off? The trappings of lordship do that.
 
 
# exel 2012-01-19 14:39
Hazel : You make much of the 1707 treaty ”The Scottish constitutional poll should be about the 1707 treaty, specifically article 3. It should perhaps be a three option referendum; it just might be the questions now proposed are the wrong questions."

Of course it should be about the 1707 treaty. It is about Independence, you know?

The question, IMNO,should be “Do you, the sovereign people of Scotland, wish to authorise the present Scottish Executive to negotiate secession from the 1707 treaty of union?” YES/NO? The result will determine the next step.

Those arguing for YES would have to put forward their case, to the electorate, as will those for NO.
 
 
# Exile 2012-01-23 11:28
exel, why would there be a need to 'negotiate' secession? "Oh, please, Mr Cameron sir, can we secede?" Why not just "...authorise the Scottish Government to secede ..... and assume the powers of a normal country?"
 
 
# J Wil 2012-01-19 15:19
The sad thing is that the Scottish sovereignty argument is not that obvious to the wider public as is has not been given much of an airing in the public domain (e.g. in telly discussions or in the newspapers). As an argument it's not much use if it is confined to a few sympathetic people in publications such as this. It is within the remit of the SNP to push this to the limit.

I do not even know if it will hold any credence during the much vaunted possibility of there being a legal challenge to the referendum, as the unionists have tended to ignore every other uniquely Scottish institution and principle.
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-19 15:46
Luckily, Alex Salmond is able to express our sovereignty in simpler terms...the days of London telling us what to do are over!

However, I think it would take an international lawyer about 5 minutes to understand what the UK Parliament can and can't do under international law as regards the will of the Scottish people.

The treaty of union gives no rights to the Westminster Parliament to alter the treaty that set it up. That can only be a matter for the two original contracting parties, ie representatives of Scotland and England.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-01-19 15:56
Worth a read:

heraldscotland.com/.../...

Just exactly what I was saying about the Unionists roadrollering Scottish justice and institutions.
 
 
# Robert Louis 2012-01-19 16:59
So Mr Jim Wallace, the unelected political appointee, 'remains to be convinced' that the right to appeal ALL Scottish criminal cases should be decided by the highest Scottish court in such matters (the high court). This being in direct contradiction to the process with cases in England.

This one aspect highlights the illegitimacy of the role of the pretendy 'UK' supreme court in such matters. If the process is not the same for English and Scottish cases, the entire premise for its remit is undone. How, can it ever be argued that it has a UK remit, when it treats the appeals of Scottish and English cases in such a different and discriminatory way??

Perhaps Mr Jim Wallace, the unelected political appointee, needs to understand that the highest judges in Scotland 'remain to be convinced of his credibility'.
 
 
# bringiton 2012-01-19 16:02
I agree farrochie but right now Westminster claims it represents the Scottish people through our elected MPs so thinks it can do whatever.
This is the problem we have with two bodies claiming to represent the will of the Scottish people.
Only a referendum can decide this issue.
 
 
# Jester 2012-01-19 21:11
Quoting farrochie:
Luckily, Alex Salmond is able to express our sovereignty in simpler terms...the days of London telling us what to do are over!

However, I think it would take an international lawyer about 5 minutes to understand what the UK Parliament can and can't do under international law as regards the will of the Scottish people.
The treaty of union gives no rights to the Westminster Parliament to alter the treaty that set it up. That can only be a matter for the two original contracting parties, ie representatives of Scotland and England.

At the rates they charge? I'm sure they would spin it out a bit longer than that!
 
 
# exel 2012-01-19 15:52
J Wil 2012-01-19 14:19
“The sad thing is that the Scottish sovereignty argument is not that obvious to the wider public as is has not been given much of an airing in the public domain (e.g. in telly discussions or in the newspapers). As an argument it's not much use if it is confined to a few sympathetic people in publications such as this. It is within the remit of the SNP to push this to the limit.”

In my opinion the electorate in general do not see their sovereignty as a problem. They understand that it exists and is theirs to exercise. They will not forgive any political party which seeks to supplant it.

They expect to be asked a question and the information required to come to their decision.

How we got here is a matter of history. The information required is about the future not the past.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-19 16:11
Last night I went late to bed and couldn't sleep as I had a wee poem forming in my head. Long experiance taught me the only way to get rested was to get up and type the poem down. I did and here it is: -


The Lion King

The Lion roared with all his might and said, “I am The King”,
Small Monkey shot right up a tree, as fast as anything.
Giraffe, he bowed his head down low, that was a fearful strain,
And Zebra bowed unto the king, then bowed, and bowed, again.
The Leopard, spotted, “royal right”, so didn't say a thing,
And Jackal ran around a lot, most often in a ring.
Elephant blew a trumpet call and sat down with a bump,
He didn't give a fig for lions, so gave, “The King”, a thump,
He settled down, to eat his lunch, while sat on Lion's tail.
Said to the lion, “get out of that – I'm sure that you will fail”,
It depends on how you look at things, the wise old Jumbo knew,
That kings can all be cut to size, (and big Wastemonsters too).
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-19 16:27
Nice one Auld Bob. Here's mine after having the pleasure of amending a bank account application where they had mistakenly inserted my nationality as British.

_______________ _______________ ______
New account, sir, here’s the form.
Name? good Scottish name, where from?
Glasgow, fine city,
Your passport so we can be clear,
Nationality?
Write British here
 
 
# Macart 2012-01-19 20:01
Like! :0)
 
 
# CapnAndy 2012-01-19 16:23
Nothing is more pleasing than a good argument put in simple terms.
Nice one Hazel.
 
 
# Jim Johnston 2012-01-19 17:35
Another winner Hazel.

Does anyone in both the "other places", in Scottish eyes, have the courage to state openly that the Scottish people are not sovereign ?

Of course they don't, they would be strung up by the heels.

Jim Wallace is as he always has been, a 1st class fool that no one listens to.
 
 
# Mei 2012-01-19 18:52
Does anyone have a link or the wording to the United Nations ruling on Independence Referendums?
 
 
# Saltire Groppenslosh 2012-01-19 20:11
Another fantastic article Hazel. It's getting shared if you don't mind. SM753 or whatever he or she is called is completely clutching at straws on wording that would appear on every international treaty trying to pin two states together.

"There's always one" isn't there?
 
 
# bagonails 2012-01-19 20:25
There shall be no referendum
We will be independent.
I rather like that.
 
 
# exel 2012-01-20 13:30
Holebender 2012-01-19 18:25
Quoting dhothersall: “btw, you'd better give Michael Moore a slap for calling the Scottish Government the Scottish Government in his consultation document. The only people who insist on saying "executive" and pretending to be all legalistic about it are people who seek to belittle the Scottish Government. That's your motive too, isn't it Duncan?”

Sorry to break into the “tagteam” conversation, but your pal is quoting the legal position. Until the present Scotland Bill passes through Westminster the SNP are The Scottish Executive.
They can of course call themselves what they wish and so can Mr. Moore.
 
 
# deepwater 2012-01-20 20:42
Exel:

Actually, a wee correction if I may.

In legal terms an easy anology - if two people say they're boyfiriend/girlfriend living under the same roof then essentially that's what they are.

If they tell the world they're husband and wife, irrespective of ceremony and paper, they can legally be considered husband and wife. All rights accorded. It's called "holding out".

Holyrood is now "held out" as the elected government of Scotland.

To challenge otherwise is a legal argument that would be worth watching.

Its lagrely the same as saying the 1707 treaty has been illegally altered. Yes it has, but the reality of the situation is we must now deal with what we have, and article 3 is something we have.
 
 
# dhothersall 2012-01-20 20:52
Astonishing nonsense. To challenge otherwise is a legal argument that would take 2 minutes and be easily won. As it would in the case of an unmarried couple, given that "marriage by cohabitation with habit and repute" which was based on holding out was abolished in the Family Law (Scotland) Act 2006.

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that this site does its denizens no favours. A community in constant agreement learns nothing.
 
 
# exel 2012-01-20 23:38
deepwater 2012-01-20 19:42
“In legal terms an easy anology - if two people say they're boyfiriend/girlfriend living under the same roof then essentially that's what they are.”

Your analogy may be valid Hazel, but the legal argument has already been carried out and statute is in the process at present in Westminster.

As far as I know Holyrood is the Scottish Devolved Parliament and the SNParty are the Scottish Executive until the Scotland Bill says otherwise. That is not a legal opinion (I am not qualified to give one) but is my opinion at the moment.
 
 
# Exile 2012-01-23 11:35
Just because the Scotland Act terms them the 'Scottish Executive' doesn't mean they ARE the Scottish Executive. They call themselves the 'Scottiah Government'. I like the sound of that. If enough people like the sound of it, then that is what they are. Politics, the will of the people, trumps law, in this case the will of a mainly foreign elite, any day. The legal position will eventually fall into line.
 
 
# lochside 2012-01-20 14:51
The problem is that for the past three hundred years the Scottish Legal system has been ignored and over-ruled in order to assimilate it into English laws underlying principles. Without a proper Executive in Scotland, Westminster with its inherent English majority has railroaded legislation through, which supine Scots lap-dog MPs then translated into Scottish legislation. In the last several years Westminster and Tony Blair while permitting devolution ( power retained, remember)have increased the concept and reality of 'British' law e.g. the Supreme Court. That is why our Scottish government has a duty to challenge the fundamental illegal actions and views of such as 'Lord' Jim Wallace (shame on him for besmirching that proud name). That's why Hazel's erudite article has been so urgently required to enlighten the ordinary Scots public of the essential difference in our concept and practice of democracy in comparison to the feudal Eng/Brit model at Westminster.
 
 
# exel 2012-01-20 17:41
lochside 2012-01-20 13:51
I agree with your diagnosis, lochside, but not your prognosis.

I think almost everyone on this forum agrees that The patient (the UK) is terminally ill.

The problem is that the idea of democracy has been debased in the UK by the political parties.

The UK constitution has been high jacked by the UK political parties and parliament cannot be held to account by the people other than at the time of a general election. In parliament, the party leader with the most seats is appointed by convention, not elected by Parliament or the electorate, and as Prime Minister, controls and appoints the executive, and thus essentially a party controls parliament. The situation is further exacerbated and democracy diminished, by the “Whip system” on party MPs to ensure the outcome of a vote suits the party line. The fusion of powers currently controlled by the party leader in effect results in an elective dictatorship.
“British politics are broken” and need repairing urgently, if they are not repaired, the union will crash and burn and no one in the British Isles will gain.

How to cure the patient?

The unions’ saviour will be the political party with the guts to take on the repair. The formulation of a “Written codified constitution within a Federal System” discussed openly in a Constitutional Convention and accepted in a referendum.

The recent YouGov poll, reported by both Nationalist and unionist media, 20th November, bears this out. Both report that: Labour MP Frank Field has now tabled a parliamentary motion calling for the pros and cons of a devolved English chamber to be examined.

Mr Field said: "I was against devolution but once it went through, it seems to me the issue is unfinished. And the people being under-represented are the English, simply because they are the biggest group. I would have thought the next stage is for an English parliament, with a Federal parliament for the UK which undertakes collective action."

Not the Federal System I think Mr. Fields envisages, but a federation of the REGIONS of the UK (not the four states).

If the Westminster parliament cannot produce the politicians up to this or the other states in the union vote against it, break up, secession, separation or independence (call it what you will) will start.

This will be the worst solution possible for Scotland. Devolution which we voted for, reconstituted the Scottish Parliament, this is a UNICAMERAL parliament, now with a political party in power, who have waited so long for that power that they are unlikely to countenance a constitution limiting that power.

They will not even discuss a constitution before we give them the same dictatorial power we hate from Westminster.
 
 
# Exile 2012-01-23 11:46
I'm sorry exel, but your argumentation reminds me of the old Socialist Party of Great Britain in my youth. (Does it still exist? I don't know.) The SPGB (or Small Party of Good Boys, as it was laughingly termed) was all for socialist revolution as long as they could get a majority for it at Westminister.

Quite frankly, I couldn't care less what Westminster legislation stipulates. We've got our parliament back at last, and it's a joy to see it begin to flex its muscles and assert the interests of Scotland. You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. And you can't recover national independence without breaking the shackles (legal or administrative) placed on your national freedom of action by a usurping neighbour.
 
 
# exel 2012-01-23 12:54
Exile 2012-01-23 10:46
I'm sorry exel, but your argumentation reminds me of the old Socialist Party of Great Britain in my youth. (Does it still exist? I don't know.) The SPGB (or Small Party of Good Boys, as it was laughingly termed) was all for socialist revolution as long as they could get a majority for it at Westminister.

You will have to remind me which opinion of mine you are referring to. Just a little clue will do.
 

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