By a Newsnet reporter
 
Do you remember the movie ‘The Wizard of Oz’?
 
Dorothy, the scarecrow, the tin man and the lion travelled all the way to the Emerald City in order to seek help from the all-powerful wizard to obtain qualities they believed they lacked.

When they arrive, an intimidating spectre tells them that help will be granted only if they accept stringent conditions which involve capturing the wicked witch of the west’s broomstick.

However, on accomplishing the task, Dorothy and her companions return to the Emerald City to discover that the wizard is an ordinary man who tells them the qualities they sought were in actual fact in their possession all along.

Dorothy goes back to Kansas, the lion, the tin man and the scarecrow are left in charge of Oz and the timid wee munchkins are freed from the witch’s tyranny.

Much of the movie is a metaphor for what we are currently witnessing with respect to the independence referendum and the increasingly hysterical claims by elected and non-elected Westminster based Unionists.

The Wicked Witch is of course Westminster and Oz is the London controlled BBC which has decided to ignore both the Scottish election campaign and its result and simply re-write history using the wicked witch’s version of the last twelve months.

The yellow brick road

Let’s take a walk along the yellow brick road, to twelve months ago … to the weeks and months prior to the Scottish elections.

Labour were being touted as odds-on favourites to supplant the SNP, Iain Gray was readying himself to become First Minister and all three Unionist party leaders were rehearsing their excuses for denying a referendum on independence or extra powers.

Tavish Scott, Annabel Goldie and Gray himself had stonewalled the SNP over more powers for the Scottish parliament and a referendum for all of four years.  Too near to the recession, wait until economy improves, if people want independence they’ll vote SNP in the election, were some of the more common refrains as the limitations of the SNP’s one seat advantage became all too apparent.

The SNP’s first term in office wasn’t supposed to last the duration, but last it did despite smears and allegations finding their way into the Scottish media with monotonous regularity.  However the four year Unionist nightmare that began in 2007, the aberration, was about to end.

The SNP’s ultimate goal of independence always required a ballot and the Unionists were in no hurry to hold one, or even endorse the idea.  Things would return to normal once the election campaign had been navigated and all three simply had to hold out until May 5th.

At no point throughout the campaign was there any suggestion that the ballot would be illegal, indeed as the election drew nearer the Unionists main complaint was that in the four year term of office, the SNP had not brought a Bill to Parliament for them to vote down – Salmond had bottled it, was the claim.

Of course the only way to get a referendum was to get a majority of MSPs to vote for it and the only way to do that was for the SNP to get support from another party – for Holyrood’s voting system had been designed (rigged) specifically to prevent the SNP from ever winning a majority of seats.

As none of the Unionists had the slightest intention of joining with the SNP it was widely accepted that this alliance wasn’t going to happen – the best the SNP could hope for was to pip Labour and become the largest party, then would begin months of politicking as Salmond’s team would try to harness public opinion in order to exert pressure onto the Unionists.

Independence was a pipedream and the Unionists held all the cards.

That changed on May 6th when the impossible happened - and the SNP overcame the system designed never to allow the nationalists a majority. 

They did it against a backdrop of a media who had relentlessly pushed the idea of a certain Labour win.  It wasn’t until the last two weeks that signs started to emerge that the media had backed the wrong horse.

An independence referendum was now a certainty and what’s more, the new majority Scottish government held all the cards.

There was nothing Westminster could do but sit back and watch as the nationalists swiftly came to terms with the shift in power.  A party that had navigated four years of uncharted waters against rocks and icebergs carefully positioned by the opposition suddenly found itself in calm seas with a fair wind and a full sail.

The Unionists made noises about wanting a referendum right away.  Gone were the economic concerns that, pre-election, were cited as insurmountable obstacles to a referendum.  In their place were new economic concerns over the delay.

Unionists had simply reversed their arguments and the media reported it without the blink of an eye – black was white and white was black.

Salmond himself was urged to name the date and call the ballot, an implicit acknowledgement of mandate and legality.  Unionists north and south of the border fell over themselves reminding people that Salmond had the power to call the referendum now – and insisted that he was running scared.

However the rhetoric was backed by nothing of substance.  No matter how many times they made demands, the SNP merely had to point to their overwhelming mandate.

The Scottish government were playing a patient game and the Unionists were powerless to do anything about it.

But London had one trick up their sleeve – the constitution is reserved to Westminster and only London can make changes.

The voice of Oz

The ballot being planned for the referendum however was merely consultative.  The SNP planned to ask the Scottish electorate whether they wished the Scottish government to negotiate independence with Westminster – changes would only result after the referendum had taken place.

However a bit of political sleight of hand and a not inconsiderable lapse of memory on the part of the entire UK media and we had London now claiming that the Scottish government lacked the powers to hold a referendum.

This was a last gasp attempt by London to wrest control from the Scottish government, they knew that without a challenge then Scotland would become independent sooner or later.

It was contrived of course, and for the tactic to work would need the recipients (us) to believe that it wasn’t just empty rhetoric, that there was substance to the claims.  It needed an Oz to pull off the illusion and there is only one body capable of presenting political propaganda as legitimate news.

The BBC had to be willing to report Westminster’s intervention in a manner that would give it legitimacy.  It also had to agree to present the Westminster government’s interference as a helpful offer.

If reported by the BBC then the general public would accept it as genuine and valid.  The Scottish Government of course would challenge the assertions, so it was vital that, rather than scrutinise London’s claim, the story be presented as a simple ‘row’.

This is precisely where we are now, with media commentators – especially in Scotland – fully on board. 

There is little or no appetite for scrutinising the illegality claim, and there doesn’t have to be, it simply needs to be repeated over and over until the populace believe both sides have equality of claim.

This is consolidated by Westminster’s consultation process.  Three months in which anything the Scottish government announces is repackaged by the media as either a rival/parallel proposal or a submission to London as part of their ‘process’.

With this ‘imposter’ mandate established the attack has shifted onto the Scottish government’s integrity and thus, by implication, the SNP’s mandate itself.

Thus, radio phone ins, news bulletins discussion programmes have all started covering the latest incarnation of the ‘row’.

Accusations that the ballot is rigged, claims that sticking to a campaign timetable is a ‘delay’, claims that businesses are worried and the demonisation of a democratically elected government are all part of the process aimed at disenfranchising the Scottish people.

Yesterday, the day after the referendum question was published, BBC Radio 4 featured a professor Robert Cialdini of the University of Arizona, who described the question as “loaded and biased”.  The professor was introduced as having no interest in devolution and someone who does not know Alex Salmond, thus, says presenter James Naughtie, he is a “rather good witness”.

The fact that the academic heads a company whose UK branch chief is a member of the UK Secretary of State’s Behaviour Change Network Team within the UK Dept. of Health, is not deemed worthy of mention.

Look out for Cialdini appearing in the Scottish media.  Accusations that the question is rigged is the next line of attack and there is a lack of academic backing for many of the Unionist claims.

On the same day as Cialdini appeared one Adam Tomkins popped up again on BBC Scotland informing listeners that the referendum was illegal and that Cameron’s ‘offer’ is “very generous”.

Professor Tomkins is presented as someone who is subjective with no political agenda.  However on this occasion he felt the need to tell people that the SNP is likely to lose the referendum and that it would be convenient for the SNP to have the ballot stopped by “a London court”.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b019p9dk/Newsdrive_25_01_2012/ - 1hr 12 mins.

It really is incessant.  As the Scottish government unveils each step in the process an army of accusers are produced by what is supposed to be our own national broadcaster, paid for by us, to launch assaults – covered of course by this artillery of ‘legality’.

It isn’t just the process that Oz is attacking.  A campaign is also underway to destroy the character of the First Minister and the BBC is again providing the platform.

Only yesterday witnessed Alex Salmond being described on Radio Scotland as an “evil dictator” by a caller to Call Kaye – the programme once again saw Unionists outnumber nationalists.

It was followed later that evening by a news item where several unelected Conservative, Lib Dem and Labour peers were heard making insulting comments about the Scottish First Minister.

Listeners heard unelected peers claiming the referendum, the regulator role and the franchise were all “rigged”, that a Yes vote could trigger “nationalist terrorism” in Northern Ireland.  The First Minister is called “devious” man who will “put the boot in” and someone who is “manipulative”.

BBC presenter Jeremy Paxman compared Salmond to African dictator Robert Mugabe, and for good measure likened Scotland to Zimbabwe.

All presented by well paid professionals adding weight to the nonsense with their sober delivery.  It’s genuine, it’s valid, it’s legitimate … it’s news, the familiar voice tells listeners.

The proportionally elected majority government has been described as a dictatorship – majority Labour or Tory administrations at Westminster are examples of secure and strong government.  However a majority at Holyrood becomes a poisonous regime when it is the SNP.

On Brian Taylor’s Friday debate a fortnight ago an audience member was allowed to make unbelievable allegations of anti-English behaviour against un-named and absent SNP supporters.  Unchallenged by Taylor who mumbled in apparent agreement, this man claimed his daughter was subjected to anti-English bullying at school and that it had materialised only after the SNP came to power.

The BBC has broadcast all of this propaganda without question in the form of serious news reports, short bulletins or phone in shows.

As each scare story or lie is exposed as just that (EU membership, forced into Euro, Cannot use the pound, will pay for removal of Trident etc, etc) the BBC replace it with another. 

Miscreants, whose lies are found out - like CBI Scotland’s Iain McMillan, disappear for a while until enough time has passed for the next press release to be safely headlined.

Genuine morsels of real comfort for the Unionist camp become media feasts running for days on end as can be seen with the latest wheeze regarding the bank of England lending to an independent Scotland. 

Forget that an oil rich country will, over time, almost certainly be the one doing the lending.  This is all about creating the image of mature debate, of convincing the Scottish electorate that each scare story is actually a legitimate concern.

But will it work?

The witch is dead

The upside (yes there is) to this is that it looks to be failing.  Polls suggest that support for independence has increased since the Wicked Witch entered the fray.

The wee Scottish Munchkins may not be as daft as London thinks.

But what is it that London is trying to prevent with all this political pulp?

It’s their ultimate nightmare, the thing they have known was a possibility since May 6th last year – a third option on the ballot paper and with it a certainty of major constitutional change. 

Not legally binding?  Really?  And just how will London stop it?

Try holding up an obscure sentence from the Scotland Act in front of the oncoming tide of Scottish popular opinion and see what happens.  One word – Canute.  That’s Cnut to Brian Taylor.

I still believe that there is a good possibility that there will indeed be one question; namely – Do you want change?

On one side will be a simple box marked NO.  On the other it will give the voter the choice … Independence or Devo-Max.

And with that - Ding, Dong the witch is dead ...

 

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Comments  

 
# Dougie Douglas 2012-01-27 02:01
They will stoop low, very low and their tentacles are long, very long:

I was on the Herald yesterday reading this article and comments:

heraldscotland.com/.../...

I came across a post from a gentleman in Plymouth, a fantastic post, it summed up why are where we are - not just us Scots but all of us on this island. It was so good I took a copy. I returned to the page an hour later to see what sort of comments it had attracted.

None.

It had been taken down with a note saying ‘under review’. By this evening the note was gone and the post was gone – it had simply disappeared.

Are you surprised?

Please note: This post is on The Herald website. It is acceptable to link to the post but not to copy it from another website whether or not it disappears. Mod Team
 
 
# Dubai_scot 2012-01-27 05:31
DD, the article from B Harrison is excellent. Also it's back in the Herald. Just read it there.
:-)
 
 
# maisiedotts 2012-01-27 17:15
Yes it's back under the poster name Harrbrian - a truly excellent and informed post with insight (or possibly inside information?)

Good on him I have lots of time for whistleblowers.
 
 
# Jacko 2012-01-27 02:14
There's nothing - absolutely nothing - that the Scottish people love more than an underdog.

To maintain your Oz analogy, it was Toto (after all) who exposed and brought an end to the great charade.
 
 
# .Scot 2012-01-27 02:33
Ding dong indeed Dorothy! The Bank of England and the English pound are both partly Scottish owned. Who's gold reserves are in the BoE? And just exactly who's Queen has promised to "pay the bearer on demand"? Perhaps the noble Lords have been too close to the soporific inducing Poppy fields of Oz?
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-27 09:19
Actually,.Scot, the Bank of England was first nationalised by the UNITED KINGDOM government in 1946. Then it was made an independent company by none other than Gordon Brown in 1998. The wording on the Bank of England notes says, "I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of ### pounds. It also has the statement, "London, for the governor and company of the Bank of England, then has a signature *****, Chief Cashier. The Queen has nothing to do with it except it bears her picture. These bank notes are actually, "Promisory notes", and no more legal than a bit of paper written by YOU and worded, "I promise to pay the bearer of this I.O.U., on demand, at my home address one hundred pouns sterling and bearing your signature.

Nothing to do with Her Majesty.
 
 
# Teri 2012-01-27 19:45
I dont know if our gold reserves are still there. Didnt Gordon Brown, on Ed Balls' advice, sell them all off at rock bottom prices?
 
 
# Dougie Douglas 2012-01-27 04:30
...continuation of post at #1...

Please see Mod Team comment at #1
 
 
# Soixante-neuf 2012-01-27 13:18
Oh wow. Maybe the Herald should get this guy on the staff.
 
 
# tartanfever 2012-01-27 05:54
There is little or no appetite for scrutinising the illegality claim, and there doesn’t have to be, it simply needs to be repeated over and over until the populace believe both sides have equality of claim.


Whilst I agree that Westminster shouldn't have anything to do with the Referendum, it seems clear to me that the Scottish public are well on to this issue, and are firmly telling Westminster to 'butt out', and our current position is that SNP memberships has received a healthy boost because of this.

Secondly. AS has had plenty of opportunity on TV to talk precisely about this issue. He has the opportunity to turn round and tell Westminster 'no, it's our referendum, it's not illegal and it's the will of the people and we shall be holding it on our terms. No negotiation.'

He has also had the opportunity to say how 'Scotland's voice has been well and truly silenced now by the Scotland Act of 1998, we can't even take a vote to determine our own future without being supervised by Westminster. Sold by Labour and the Lib Dems.'

Anyway, he hasn't. I'm sure he has his reasons, however, I've seen plenty of reaction and news footage/interviews broadcast on the BBC over the last two weeks in which AS. hasn't taken the opportunity to question the 'illegality issue' precisely. If he makes a statement or releases a press issue counter claiming the legality of the referendum, the BBC will report it I promise you.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-27 09:41
Don't you realise that he has been his usual astute self and done what was needed in a way they did not anticipate. Whether it is Eck himself or the SNP legal advisors I do not know but they have been unerring in the actions they have taken. Yesterday in Holyrood the Scottish Parliament held a debate on the Scottish Claim of Rights, a debate called by that wee gem Nicola Sturgeon. The parliament voted to this and have reafirmed the Scottish Claim of Rights.
This is exactly what I have been banging on about until I have probably bored everyone on NNS to tears with it. The repercussions of this is that every Scottish Political Party have now NO EXCUSE to allow the sovereign people of Scotland's wishes to be averted by Westminster. Quite simply, the sovereign people of Scotland were the authority used to sign the Treaty Of Union that instigated Westminster as the Parliament of the United Kingdom. The English monarch is sovereign and it was that sovereign power that signed on England's behalf. The subsequent change to a constitutional monarchy with the monarch as only a figurehead meant that the English monarchy, (including their subjects in Wales Ireland), delegated their powers to the elected members of the UK Parliament. However, it was the sovereign powers of the people of Scotland that were delegated to their elected representatives . So now the people have NOT delegated their sovereignty to Westminster because there is only 12 members of that government elected by the Scots so they do not have a mandate to speak on our behalf, However, Holyrood has. Then we have the other part of the Claim of rights, the Sovereign People of Scotland have the right to choose their monarch- AND TO SACK THE MONARCH but in a Constitutional monarchy that delegated power rests with the elected members so we have the right, as a population, to sack the elected government. Did you really think Eck was that daft?
 
 
# tartanfever 2012-01-27 09:56
Hi Bob,

I agree with all you say, however, my response is to the article which claims two things.

1) That the case of the referendum illegality has not been properly looked at in Scotland, nor

2) has not been covered by the BBC, (deliberately)

Whilst these statements may be true and they are directed towards the BBC, surely it must be directed towards AS because he has not discussed it 'fully' (beyond telling Westminster to butt out) in any interview I've seen on TV, therefore, can we assume he doesn't want to or he believes that it really isn't an issue or something else.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-27 12:45
Biding his time is my guess. Perhaps for Cameron to get heavy handed. If Eck then were to dig his heels in and call in, say, The Council Of Europe, as an International mediation then they will have to do two things. First - Take their usual stance that all defined groups of people have the legal right to self determination and slap Cameron down. Second to ratify the Declaration of Arbroath, and the motion brought by Wee Nicola in Holyrood yesterday to reafirm The Claim of Rights. Considering that all parties at Holyrood have now reafirmed that Claim of Rights then Wastemonster is on a hiding to nothing. They cannot claim to over rule the wishes of the sovereign people of Scotland. Remember that when a political unit stoops to eny depth they are in the right position to have their rears kicked.
 
 
# Siôn Jones 2012-01-27 15:49
Scotland could call on the UN. Chapter 11 of the UN charter clearly says

Article 73: www.un.org/.../chapter11.shtml

Quote:
Members of the United Nations which have or assume responsibilitie s for the administration of territories whose peoples have not yet attained a full measure of self-government recognize the principle that the interests of the inhabitants of these territories are paramount, and accept as a sacred trust the obligation to promote to the utmost, within the system of international peace and security established by the present Charter, the well-being of the inhabitants of these territories, and, to this end:

to ensure, with due respect for the culture of the peoples concerned, their political, economic, social, and educational advancement, their just treatment, and their protection against abuses;
to develop self-government, to take due account of the political aspirations of the peoples, and to assist them in the progressive development of their free political institutions, according to the particular circumstances of each territory and its peoples and their varying stages of advancement;


Cameron and all those cumby lords are on very shaky ground, I should say.
 
 
# Exile 2012-01-27 17:32
Sorry to be pedantic, Auld Bob, but its the Claim of Right (as in the right to self-determination). There's no 's' at the end.
 
 
# rblackqc 2012-01-27 07:12
The Herald publishes in today's edition the following letter from me:

Legal challenge to referendum would be condemned to failure

You report that, while Westminster insists the Scottish Government does not have the legal authority to hold a referendum, Alex Salmond said his government had "set out in the past how the Scottish Parliament could hold a referendum which we are satisfied would be within its present competence" ("Poll boost as Salmond starts on historic path", The Herald, January 26).

The First Minister added: "In order to ensure that the referendum is effectively beyond legal challenge, we are willing to work with the UK Government."'

Cooperation between the Scottish and UK governments on this matter is, of course, to be welcomed. But the all-too-prevalent view that the Scottish Government is on shaky legal ground in claiming that it already has the power lawfully to hold an independence referendum needs to be vigorously countered.

No-one disputes that the Scottish Government, notwithstanding the restrictions on that government's devolved competence contained in the Scotland Act 1998, can lawfully make proposals to, or hold conversations or enter into negotiations with, the United Kingdom Government about (i) widening the devolved powers of the Scottish Government and Parliament (including amending or removing some or all of the matters reserved to the United Kingdom which are set out in Schedule 5 of the Act) or (ii) altering the constitutional position of Scotland.

That being so, no court could conceivably hold that it was beyond the legal power of the Scottish Government to promote legislation to enable it to consult the Scottish electorate (by means of a referendum) about whether they would favour the Scottish Government's making such proposals to, or holding such conversations or entering into such negotiations with, the Government of the United Kingdom.

There is always, of course, the possibility that such legislation might be challenged as being beyond the Parliament's powers in the courts of Scotland and all the way to the UK Supreme Court. But any such challenge would be doomed to failure.

(The slightly different version that was submitted to the newspaper can be read here: t.co/6PH6mcHH )
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-27 09:28
Prof Black, if you return to these pages, I would be very interested for you view on the "international law" aspect of this discussion, as presented by Prof David Walker, here:
journalonline.co.uk/.../...

The ultimate aim of the referendum could be the termination of the treaty of union between Scotland and England. Prof Walker argues that this treaty is a matter for international law and not simply a matter of UK domestic law.

Would the Westminster Parliament indeed have any competence to rule on a referendum that is about its own existence?
 
 
# rblackqc 2012-01-27 09:59
I agree with Professor Walker. But international law really becomes relevant to the mechanism whereby Scotland would once again become an independent country only if the legislature set up by the Treaty of Union (the Westminster Parliament) fails to act on the clearly expressed wishes of the people of Scotland. International law, in the current situation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, is a long-stop, not a first resort.
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-27 10:44
Many thanks.

First approach is mutual respect and agreement; legal resort is initially domestic law; ultimately, an approach can be made to international law.

The "clearly expressed wishes of the people of Scotland" takes precedence over the Westminster legislature. Wow!

I believe for this reason that international oversight of the referendum is crucial to its acceptance.

I very much appreciate your response.
 
 
# Siôn Jones 2012-01-27 15:56
I agree - and I suggest the Jimmy Carter foundation that have a lot of experience overseeing contentious polls in some very troubled parts of the world, and are internationally respected. Inviting them in would be a master-stroke from Salmond.
 
 
# Exile 2012-01-27 17:35
I agree, farrochie. If the Electorsl Commission will be overseeing the referendum, who will be ovserseeing the overseers? I wouldn't trust that lot as far as I can spit.
 
 
# Triangular Ears 2012-01-27 13:02
Surely international law is relevant to any and all countries becoming independent and indeed to any and all countries continuing to be independent?

All that is required for a country to become and remain independent is for other countries to recognise this. This aspect of international 'law' trumps any domestic law.

If countries around the world recognise an independent Scotland, then Scotland is independent. No country stands in isolation in the modern world, not even North Korea.

Also, international recognition of a country's sovereignty is actually necessary to be independent. Taiwan has the problem that the international community stopped recognising it, in favour of the People's Republic.

Taiwan has some level of de facto independence, but can't participate in many aspects of the international world. The People's Republic managed to turn its de facto sovereignty into de jure sovereignty when it supplanted Taiwan's place in the international arena.

There are other countries at the other end of the scale who are not recognised by a small number of countries, e.g. Israel and Cyprus. Nobody would argue that these countries are not independent or sovereign.

Most countries enjoy universal recognition of their independence. Good for them.

If London refused to recognise Scotland's independence then it wouldn't matter as long as the international community did. Continued non-recognition would just serve to isolate London and the UK (as they would probably still be calling themselves).

The legality question over a referendum on Scottish independence is a nonsense. As long as a referendum takes place under international standards of proprietry then what London thinks of it matters not one bit.

London fully understands self-determination, but is trying to subvert it regardless. The very reason why self-determination is defined and formalised in international law is because bully superstates and ex-superstates could not be trusted to let self-determination take place.

I think Salmond and the SNP know this, and so does London.

They like the divorce analogy. Self-determination is the right of either spouse being able to terminate the marriage. The other spouse can do nothing legally to prevent this happening. They can only appeal for its continuance through negotiation. We know what happens when divorce is not allowed (e.g. through social conventions) or is illegal. It is not pretty.

Self-determination is a well understood concept of international law and is well defined. It is one area where individual countries are actually NOT sovereign, if they have agreed to these concepts through international treaties.

In short, London's ability to legally prevent independence or a referendum on it is non-existent. And they legally have no say over Scotland becoming independent whether they like it or not. They do, of course, have a say in negotiations for the settlement.
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-27 15:35
As I posted yesterday from a UN document:

"29. The successor State does not derive its sovereignty from the predecessor State, but from international law and from its own statehood."
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-27 13:05
If there really were any doubts about it. The very first thing done by the Scottish parliament was for Winnie Ewing to say she declared the Scottish parliament reopened after 300 years. No one then disputed that statement and it is there in the minutes, and on many media recordings Worldwide to prove it. As this declaration of the original Scottish Parkiament re-convening has never been challanged, anyone doing so now will not make it stick. So the people of Scotland are sovereign and they delegated their authority to the Monarch of Scots. Then, as the UK became a constitutional monarchy, the monarch of England's sovereignty was delegated to England's elected representatives but Scotland's monarch was not sovereign, so it was the sovereign people of Scotland's delegated powers that were delegated to her elected representatives . Now the situation is that there are only one tory and eleven libdemd electyed to Wastemonster and that is not a mandate to rule Scotland. However, there is a mandate of the Scottish people in Holyrood and the Claim of Rights also gives the Sovereign people the right to sack their monarch and appoint another. With our votes we have already done that and the Wastemonster, before the eyes of the WSorld, has never disputed that Holyrood was the re-convened Scottish Parliament.
Thus the same Parliament that signed the Treaty of Union but Wastemonster is NOT the Elected E nglish Parliament that signed the Treaty of Union and has no legal standing if Scotland dumps it.

Are there no lela Eagles on this here website?
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-27 13:23
rblackqc,
Thank goodness for a legal opinion.
Is it not the case that when no challenge was made to the statement that Holyrood was the opening of a reconvened the Scottish Parliament it made that a fact?

If so then Holyrood is the legally elected Scottish Parliament that signed the Treaty of Union.
However, Westminster is the "Parliament of the United Kingdom", but not the English Parliament, that incorporated both Wales & Ireland, that signed the, "Treaty of Union". It cannot then claim to represent the English signatory on the Treaty Document. Would not there need to be a properly elected English parliament to contest the fact if the Scottish Parliament pulled out of the Treaty? Furthermore, would not it require the English sovereign to summon someone to form Her Majesty's English Parliament?
 
 
# rblackqc 2012-01-27 15:06
A treaty is made by governments, not parliaments. The Treaty of Union was concluded by commissioners acting on behalf of Anne, Queen of Scots and Anne, Queen of England (one and the same person, of course, but acting in two different monarchical capacities). All that the two parliaments did was to pass separate Acts giving effect to the treaty that Anne had concluded with herself.

That treaty created a new entity in international law, Great Britain (subsequently extended to become the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, latterly the UK of GB and Northern Ireland). It is the government of that entity that has the constitutional authority to grant independence to component parts of the entity; and it is the legislature of that entity that would have to give effect to the UK Government's decision to do so.

Of course, if the UK Government and Parliament failed to give effect to a clearly expressed wish of the inhabitants of a component part of the entity to become an independent state, international law and the right of self-determination would then come into play. But international law is a long-stop, not a first resort.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-28 15:15
Don't want to be pedantic but if the Scottish People are sovereign as established by The acceptance of The Declaration of Arbroath then Anne Queen of Scots was not sovereign in Scotland? The People of Scotland were. If that really is so then the People still have the right to disput the right of Westminster. Westminster, in a constitutional monarch only acts by the members being elected by the sovereign people in Scotland and the sovereign monarch in England. In both cases by elected members.
 
 
# UpSpake 2012-01-27 07:56
The Harrison letter is interesting but starts off with an error. It was the administration prior to Blair's that was instructed by not the EU but the Council of Europe which is definately not the EU to provide devolution of power to the 'regions'.
I doubt that had Major implimented this directive it would have been a fairer settlement for Scotland. Under the Blair administration they took pleasure in acceding to the demands of the CofE but emasculating the Scots Parliament at the same time.
I suspect that when Blair reported back to the CofE that it was job done, the CofE took them at their word. The reality was far different as Blair boasted afterwards when the world's eyes were elsewhere, that a new Parish Council had been set up in Holyrood.
Only Winnie Ewing articulated the irony of Holyrood re-convening after near 300 year absence.
There is where the redemption of the referendum lies. The Council of Europe and their OSCE who can oversee our vote rendering the fear of the Electoral Commission obsolete. Left alone I would have concerns at the EC running the referendum but reporting to the OSCE, none whatsoever.
 
 
# bringiton 2012-01-27 09:32
What I find very annoying is the number of Labour MSPs who believe that they are the party of devolution (and they frequently spout this nonsense in parliament).
As you rightly point out US they never wanted any devolution of power from London and that Blair and Dewar made certain that the parliament was neutered and had a voting system which would prevent the SNP from ever gaining a majority.
The best laid plans....
They are the Labour and UNIONIST party of Scotland and people should remember that fact.
Their promises of further devolution in future are not credible given their track record on this matter in the past.
 
 
# Jester 2012-01-27 11:45
Quoting bringiton:
What I find very annoying is the number of Labour MSPs who believe that they are the party of devolution (and they frequently spout this nonsense in parliament).
As you rightly point out US they never wanted any devolution of power from London and that Blair and Dewar made certain that the parliament was neutered and had a voting system which would prevent the SNP from ever gaining a majority.
The best laid plans....
They are the Labour and UNIONIST party of Scotland and people should remember that fact.
Their promises of further devolution in future are not credible given their track record on this matter in the past.

A very good point.
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-27 09:46
In my draft comments on the SG consultation paper, I have a comment to the effect that international oversight is required.
 
 
# Siôn Jones 2012-01-27 16:12
jimmy Carter foundation - they have experience in contentious and difficult parts of the world.
 
 
# Vincent McDee 2012-01-27 08:02
From heraldscotland.com/.../... by Iain MacWhirter

"Of course, it would still be illegal. As a chorus of constitutional experts insisted yesterday, Holyrood has no legal right to hold a referendum asking whether Scotland wants to be independent – only Westminster can do that.

But never has constitutional law looked more irrelevant to this essentially political question.

Having got a clear question, a sensible timetable, and a concession on the Electoral Commission, the Coalition Government will surely now agree to this question being put under the so-called Section 30 order, which allows a referendum held by Holyrood to be legally binding.

If it doesn't it can probably kiss the Union goodbye.

And if anyone is daft enough to raise an action in the UK Supreme Court, as was being threatened yesterday by the media guardians of constitutional law, it would only boost the independence vote even more than a month of Paxman interviews.

So, bring it on."
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-27 10:00
Sorry Vincent McDee, but you are wrong. That was made very clear yesterday in the Scottish Parliament. The Parliament have reafermed, "The Scottish Claim Of Rights". These are based upon basic Scottish law and Scottish law is based upon two very simple fact from the very document that saw the known World accept Scotland as an independent sovereign country. The Declaration of Arbroath. The Claim of rights is this. The Scottish people are sovereign, the monarch is not sovereign. The sovereign people have right to choose a monarch, The sovereign people have right to sack their chosen monarch and appoint another in his/her place. Thus, with the subsequent change to a constitutional monarchy that sovereignty was delegated to our elected representatives instead of the monarch who remains a figurehead.

The Treaty of union was only signed by Scotland & England but it does not take away the sovereignty of the Scottish people. Ergo, if the people of Scotland decide to remove themselves from a treaty signed in their names then that government has no authority in Scotland.
 
 
# tartanfever 2012-01-27 10:08
Bob, my questions is,

'What relevance does it have to the ministers and government in Westminster ?'

Because at present, in my opinion, Westminster seem to be completely ignoring us and referring only to the Scotland Act 1998, and the SNP are hardly jumping up and down throwing the Treaty of Union or the Claim of Rights in their faces.

Whats going on ?
 
 
# Soixante-neuf 2012-01-27 13:32
Biding of time, playing the long game, and not interrupting your enemy while he is busy making a mistake.
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-27 10:56
Auld Bob, Is there a version of the Claim of Right that an individual can sign?
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-27 13:32
No idea but would think there is one somewhere. However, and I could be wrong. We, the sovereign people of Scotland gave our Elected MSPs our delegated power of sovereignty. Yesterday they reafirmed The Claim of Rights on our behalf. As someone already mentioned, Alex Salmond is only the gatekeeper of the Sovereign people of Scotland and was elected by us to that position. That's good enough for me.
 
 
# Bobelix 2012-01-28 13:31
You probably wouldn't want to sign the Claim of Right nowadays! It was an assertion of the Scottish People's right to reject James VII/II on the grounds of his Catholicism. Given that the Pope was still much given to very substantial interference in nation-states' affairs at the time, this was an understandable view taken by the then Protestant authorities. Since no-one in the 21st Century, I hope, would question the primary loyalty of Scottish Catholics to Scotland - we do, after all, have a healthy mixture of Catholic, Protestant, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist etc. membership in the SNP - it's certainly NOT that aspect of the Claim of Right we would wish to invoke. I know that religion still tries to assert supremacy (both on Protestant and Catholic sides), but an example of religious real-politik on the part of a population may be seen in overwhelmingly-Catholic Italy which, despite all the railing from the Vatican on the subject of birth-control, has one of the lowest birthrates in Europe!
The important point about the Claim of Right is that it re-asserts in Scots Law, BEFORE the Act of Union, the Sovereignty of the Scottish People as defined in the Declaration of Arbroath. Since the Act of Union guaranteed the maintenance of Scots Law, then the Claim of Right, and, implicitly, the Sovereignty of the Scottish People is upheld in law. THAT is why the unionists' gibbering about the legality of the referendum because it's not covered by the Scottish Devolution legislation is irrelevant. Scots Law trumps it!
 
 
# daveniz 2012-01-27 08:27
Scotland's independence questions
answered in a nutshell;

1) Debt will be shared by population -
Scotland gets about 8% (as a gesture of good will since we never had control over the debt westminister accumulated)
2) Scottish soldiers can still be in the British Army if they want -
just like Canadians, Australians, Kiwis.. .
Scotland's army will be a
defence force and will be small - think Norwegian size.
3) Scotland is likely to be in the EU.
Rump UK can do what it wants.
4) Sterling is an international currency.
No one can stop Scotland
using it. Scotland may well end up with the Pound Scots as its currency.
5) Canada, Australia, NZ, etc, etc all still have the UK monarchy,
so it won't be unusual if Scotland does too.

Scotland will get around
8-10% of all UK assets (excluding oil as It's in Scottish waters the rump UK can't claim it as much as Scotland can't claim coal in Yorkshire or Wales as it wasn't put there by anyone) or its monetary equivalent -embassies and other buildings, foreign territories, armed forces and weaponry (expensive nukes included but we can sell our share to westminister since they want to keep it ) , BBC (doubt most people will want to keep it ), infrastructure - Scottish taxpayers paid for these things too and so have partial ownership.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-01-27 08:29
And for the avoidance of doubt, oil in Scottish waters is not a UK asset, because the UK didn't put it there.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-27 10:15
Why make it easy for the Wastemonster? After all Scotland joined the Union as an equal Sovereign state. The Wastemonster decided that the North Sea Profits would be shared on a per capita basis when it was clear that up to 98% of the revenue came from Scotland's geographic territory. Furthermore, Scotland joind England in union with Scotland having NO national debt, (bankrupt but not in debt). England came with massive national debts due to fighting wars all over Europe and the known World. In any case, as there is not a legally elected English parliament, (Westminster is not the English Parliament), and does not exist if the Treaty of Union is no more. Who the hell is the legally elected Scottish Government going to negotiate with until the Queen summons someone to form Her Majesty's English Parliament, and whoever it is, cannot do so until the English people elect members to a specifically English Parliament. BTW: That English Parliament might be a bit in trouble because the original England that signed the Treaty of Union also included the Principality of Wales and all Ireland. These all now have their own parliaments and will probably opt to ditch England.
 
 
# Triangular Ears 2012-01-27 13:57
"all Ireland"? Ireland wasn't part of the union in 1707. Yes, it had a relationship with England, bit it didn't join the union until later.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-28 15:28
Err! No! The Parliament of Ireland way back in 1541 – The introduction of the Crown of Ireland Act 1542 saw the Irish crown on an English head. By 1707 that crown was still on an Irish head.
 
 
# Siôn Jones 2012-01-27 16:15
Wouldn't you want the use of the embassies? If so having an 8% stake in the freehold might be useful.
 
 
# Astonished 2012-01-27 08:29
Westmonster are very very worried.

You can smell their fear.

I would immediately invite the UN in to oversee the referendum.And anymore threats of interference then I would start threatening votes on UDI in the Scottish Government(it is a representative democracy after all).
 
 
# hiorta 2012-01-27 11:39
""Westmonster are very very worried""
They certainly seem to be utterly desparate to keep something, as yet untouched upon, under wraps.

Are they scared of Democracy?

After all the wars 'for democratic freedom' for others, surely not. But then again were they really about oil anf global power?

Have they made illegal commitments involving Scotland?
Possibly, since some think we were 'annexed' in 1707 and therefore in their ownership.

They do seem very anxious to avoid discussing their fears. Do you supppose a quick call to Samaritans in order?
 
 
# Siôn Jones 2012-01-27 16:20
UN Charter, chapter XI: www.un.org/.../chapter11.shtml

Quote:
Members of the United Nations which have or assume responsibilitie s for the administration of territories whose peoples have not yet attained a full measure of self-government recognize the principle that the interests of the inhabitants of these territories are paramount, and accept as a sacred trust the obligation to promote to the utmost, within the system of international peace and security established by the present Charter, the well-being of the inhabitants of these territories, and, to this end:

to ensure, with due respect for the culture of the peoples concerned, their political, economic, social, and educational advancement, their just treatment, and their protection against abuses;
to develop self-government, to take due account of the political aspirations of the peoples, and to assist them in the progressive development of their free political institutions, according to the particular circumstances of each territory and its peoples and their varying stages of advancement;


Game set and match, I would say!
 
 
# clootie 2012-01-27 08:37
I see only one way to counter the propaganda. We need to promote sites such as this and forward key parts via other modes of communication.

The few people I have given this type of alternative view have now started to comment on the now obvious media bias.

As the unionists do not have a positive case they will now be putting all their hopes and efforts into a negative campaign - after all it has worked well in the past.
 
 
# Massacre1965 2012-01-27 08:43
I have just watched some of the 'debate' on the Scotland Bill in the HoL (waiting for the tennis to come on - honest!).

Anyway it makes my blood boil to see Wallace, Forsyth, Brown, McConnell etc all having an uninterupted swipe at the Scottish government. Some of the comments by Brown appeared very sinister (along the lines of we have ways and means, ask no questions, nudge nudge).

The HoL is truly a wonderful club for them - on this issue they are all matey and jokey. They are accountable to no one, they all make themselves to be important (witness the hapless, arrogant Wallace performance on Wednesday), they are unelected, relics from Scotland's past and they get handsomely recompensed for attending this club for that is surely what it is. Their ego's are massaged by getting an inordinate amount of coverage and aitrtime and yet they never come up with anything positive whatsoever to say about the union. Of course there isn't much positive to say otherwise it would have been said by now but these turkeys are never gonna vote for christmas. Its scarey, very scarey these symbols of a long past its sell by date remnants of an empire and union.

On a positive note - C'mon Andy Murray and my 15 year old son has just joined the SNP.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-01-27 10:06
Could anyone inform me if they have yet removed the corpse which might be described as sedentary, positioned behind one of the speakers in the Lords, in a natural position, constrained from falling off the bench by rigor mortis, in a debate I saw several days ago?
 
 
# Massacre1965 2012-01-27 10:27
They covered him with a blanket thus enabling him to continue to attract expenses
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-27 13:35
Probably move him to Glenroths along with all the other Labour voters buried there.
 
 
# Ready to Start 2012-01-27 08:54
Can a Newsnet Scotland team monitor BBC and record output on a regular basis including a Union Jack watch over the next 32 months.................. am I the only one who noticed the prominence given to the Union Flag on Wednesday and Thursday by the impartial BBC?
 
 
# xyz 2012-01-27 11:13
On union flag on the BBC and BBC unionist psyops:

.. Last night on Reporting scotlsn they dedicated less time to first minister's questions than to a cute wee story about how Shetland ponies having a gene particular to the make up of thoroughbred race horses. So they had to 'pretend race' one of those race horse against a Shetland pony. The big horse had a very prominent union flag on its back. The symbolism is obvious. Do subliminal messages like this work? -- Maybe!

I was also looking at the graphic (Who's who by party) depicting the share of seats at holyrood here: news.bbc.co.uk/.../default.stm

This graphic is from the previous administration when the SNP were a minority government. It does not reflect the positions in the parliament now. It very subtly and erroneously indicates that the SNP are still a minority in the parliament.
 
 
# Siôn Jones 2012-01-27 16:24
Also the sudden surge of programs with the title 'the Great British . . .' whatnot. Subliminal mind control. It won't work!
 
 
# Mac 2012-01-27 09:24
Excellent analysis of where we have been and where we are.

Every insult, every smear, every scare story should now be banked so that we can commnand the high ground and retain the positive message.

Scots have shown themselves to be not stupid. They know exactlty what is happening. We will win the referendum.
 
 
# wee e 2012-01-27 09:57
Incessant right enough: Switched on the box this morning to hear Forsythe chuntering on about a "rigged" question. I don't remember him complaining that the same wording in the 1997 devolution referendum was rigged!
He also took a moment to observe, explicitly - and absolutely shamelessly - that Holyrood had been set up so that a majority government could never be achieved, and to the great self-satisfaction of his peers, used the opportunity to sorrow over the lack of a second house at Holyrood and remark how fortunate it is that we have themselves, the Lords, to compensate for it.
There was also a wee mention of the fact that there is, however, no SNP and indeed no independence presence in the Lords, and he wondered briefly if someone of that sort could sort of be allowed into the chamber, presumably to lend a thin veneer of democracy to the proceedings of the Scotland Bill.
I dunno whether I'm more flabbergasted that he came right out and said Holyrood was rigged, or at his lack of shame.

No suggestion or even pretense in the Lords this morning that democracy is meant to be a desurable thing.
 
 
# UpSpake 2012-01-27 10:02
Ready to Start. The BBC in Scotland have been running this image now foe weeks, the large centre placed Union flag with the dimunitive Saltire below it and to the right.
Get the symbolism and the BBC are impartial ?. And I am a monkey's uncle.
 
 
# H Scott 2012-01-27 10:03
Although it has its drawbacks, I think all this unionist negativity is a net gain to the pro-independence camp. People will be well and truly scunnered with it all by the time of the referendum, if not already. It might just be what tips the balance in favour of a Yes vote. And if that is to happen, then the BBC has about two and a half years before they have to pack up their lies and go.
 
 
# balbeggie 2012-01-27 10:14
You might be right. Joyce McMillan who I am starting to warm to said, "Independence debate is fully joined and hell mend unionists who have nothing positive to offer"

scotsman.com/.../...
 
 
# J Wil 2012-01-27 10:13
In stark contrast to previous years, the first stage of the budget has gone through Holyrood with barely a whimper from the opposition or the media, who now, it seems, have bigger fish to fry.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-01-27 10:33
I hope Alex Salmond and his team will call the bluff of the unionists at the meeting next week and tell them where to get off with their legality argument. I hope they will put the ba' on the slates and decide to go ahead with their original plan for the referendum.

For their misdeeds, the unionists will eventuality have to answer to that greater power (to coin a phrase), the Scottish people.
 
 
# sneckedagain 2012-01-27 11:06
We now have to start talking about which part of the shared assets we will take when we become independent to underline that the assets of the UK are not English assets which is presently the perception not only of many people but of much of the media and the polictcal classes.
We own 9% of all of it.
Simply put - if we have 9% of the debt we have 9% of the joint assets.
The UK for instance can keep the big aircraft-free aircraft carriers. We'll have some of the more practical vessels for our Scottish navy, thank you.
 
 
# Ken500 2012-01-27 11:07
Let MSM published the McCrone and the betrayal of Scotland by Labour/Unionists. Lies. It has cost Scotland £300Billion. The Oil Fund that disappeared.
 
 
# Ken500 2012-01-27 11:08
The BBC are a disgrace
 
 
# jjmac 2012-01-27 11:09
Just cancelled my direct debit for BBC license fee. This money will now be sent to NNS amongst other contributions.
A letter of explanation will also be sent to the BBC when i am in a more amicable frame of mind.
 
 
# Mako 2012-01-27 11:16
JJ, would you mind posting the letter on here? I want to cancel my DD and send it to NS but to be honest I am a little feart of what the BBC will/can do.

Think it would help to see how other people are doing it.
 
 
# albafreedom 2012-01-27 11:36
Mako, I'm very much in the same boat as you on this one. I do not want to fund the blatant bias towards the unionist parties but fear what they can do to me.
I am more than willing to give up watching BBC on my television.
As stated I believe there are a lot more like us.
Yours
Simon
 
 
# Siôn Jones 2012-01-27 17:07
You could always make a complaint to the BBC: bbc.co.uk/.../?reset=#anchor every time you observe bias. They do follow it up, usually with a bland 'Paxo was only joking - so * ' - but it does get recorded. You don't even need a license to complain.

Offensive language removed - NNS Mod Team
 
 
# velofello 2012-01-27 11:17
The parable of the Wizard of Oz. Truly excellent article. Credit to AndrewB also. and Brian Harrison.
I cannot see Leslie Riddoch being invited again to the BBC "Great Debate".
She and Nicola Sturgeon cool, composed and articulate; Wee Jimmy a spluttering relic; Johann talking incomprehensive ly whist kneading imaginary dough.
When is the next debate? New rules may apply. SNP denied the right of reply? Allowed only to move their heads?
 
 
# Triangular Ears 2012-01-27 13:50
"imaginary dough", ha ha! I noticed that too. I thought she was knitting at one point.
 
 
# zorbathejock 2012-01-27 11:19
From the Manchester Evening News:
Salford is to get a Boris Johnson-style elected mayor after voting 'Yes' in a referendum on Thursday.
If Salford can have a "legal" referendum why can't Scotland?
 
 
# Siôn Jones 2012-01-27 17:10
The people of Carmarthen (in Wales) had a referendum concerning the plans from the council to close an arterial road a couple of years ago. The plebiscite was won, and the road is still open. I can't remember them needing permission from Westminster.
 
 
# jjmac 2012-01-27 11:27
In reply to Mako,
I am just going to tell the BBC that i am no longer prepared to contribute to an organisation that is blatantly biased towards unionist political parties, Labour in particular.
I will also mention that this contravenes the ethics and reasons upon which this so called "great institution" was set up.
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-27 11:33
Vote in the Daily Wreckords referendum:

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/
 
 
# Alba4ever 2012-01-27 11:41
Quoting farrochie:
Vote in the Daily Wreckords referendum:

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/


Over 52% voting Yes at present. Do it now!
 
 
# maisiedotts 2012-01-27 12:09
Yes 55.2%

No 44.8%

time 12.08
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-27 12:01
A wee surge fae

Yes 52.1% No 47.9%

to

Yes 54.7% No 45.3%
 
 
# Diabloandco 2012-01-27 13:39
There is also a cracking wee videoabout the deigners campaigning for a Scottish Fashion Academy - worth having a look.
 
 
# steveb 2012-01-27 11:33
OT.
I have made two attempts today to comment on the Heralds "Darling" fairy story. It seems that maybe the herald doesn't like being told that they should check out stories before printing them.
 
 
# Old Smokey 2012-01-27 11:47
Westminster is indeed running scared, on two counts
Firstly Westminster will loose accesss to the vast Oil and gas wealth of the Scottish Oil & Gas fields as well as future Oil & Gas resources. In addition it will be loosing access to renewable energy sources.This we know from Soames statement to the House of Commons viz 'The goose that lays the Golden Egg' which was reported in another artivle in Newsnet Scotland

Secondly Westminster know full well that if Scotland goes, then so it will be likely that Northern Ireland will be less likely to stay as a province of England.
There are marked similarities to what happened in Yugoslavia, where Serbia tried to hold on to the 'Yugoslavia' indentity, when one by one each of the parts of Yugoslavia declared indpendence

Westminster are also clinging onto the idea that somehow the 'United Kingdom' will still exist, which is why its always used in the language of the unionist as in 'Scotland leaving the UK' and 'Scotland not being able to use UK Embassies' etc etc (just have to read various statments to see what I mean). Even to say 'Rump United Kingdom' his a bit of a hat tip to the unionists, an inverted acknowledgement that somehow the United Kingdom will still exist.It wont!
If Northern Ireland, as I expect will decide to become semi autonomous, then what does that leave Westminster with?? An England calling itself the United Kingdom? that would be too too cringeworthy even by English standards.
These then are the basic reasons why the unionists are fighting hard (and dirty) to stop Scotland. For if it happens the Westminster pack of cards collapses. The BBC also are aware of this (if not then that would be surprising) as a state broadcaster it will be fractured from top to bottom, it would no longer be able to call itself British, as it will only be in England, its identity goes right out the window. It would loose licence fees from Scotland and if Northjern Ireland goes, add the licence payers of Northern Ireland.
According to the Bermudan Times, Bermuda would also declare independence from England, only if Scotland does (quite interesting that)
The empire that the sun would never set, is finished and Wesminster knows it
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-27 14:29
Actually the BBC, if it was accepted by ALL former United Kingdom countries, would still be British. ONLY BECOMING REPUBLIVAN CAN,the "United Kingdom", be made to go. It is after all the name of the common monarchy. What the Wastemonster cannot do is continue to be, "The Parliament of that United Kingdom. We were, after all, a united Kingdom from 1603 until 1707 but still did not have a, "Parliament of the United Kingdom". As to being British, these islands were British long before there was an England. There was only an England quite some time after the Roman's left southern Britain. The Ango Saxon tribes only took overlordship of the southern Ancient Britons after the Angles, Jutes, Saxons and the rest were invited to come to South Britain.

So there will be a United Kingdom, and Scotland will be part of it as long as we keep the monarch. We will not though, Be part of a United Kingdom Parliament.
 
 
# Old Smokey 2012-01-27 16:56
Actually under the union of Crowns, the joint title was as follows :
a Proclamation concerning the Kings Majesties Stile on 20 October 1604 announcing that he did "assume to Our selfe by the cleerenesse of our Right, The Name and Stile of KING OF GREAT BRITTAINE, FRANCE, AND IRELAND, DEFENDER OF THE FAITH, &cProclamation concerning the Kings Majesties Stile, of King of Great Britaine heraldica.org/.../...

The title 'United Kingdom' was not created until 1707 as per the Act and treaty of union
James VI had this idea of a 'United Kingdom' but it was oppossed by both Parliaments at the time
So in 1707 the general term for Scotland and England, being 'Great Brittaine' became 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain'
Trust this clarifies
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-28 15:57
The whole point was, even then, they were confising Kingdom and country/nation/sovereign state, call it what you will. The fact is that the two things are not the same. Today we have many republics, sovereign states but not kingdoms. At 1707, before the Acts Of Union, there was only one monarch but four kingdoms, or really 3 kingdoms and one prinedom. However, while there were four crowns on one head there were still two distinct sovereign countries. What they call themselves is often not the correct thing. You will see people on this site who swear they are Scottish not British, quite obviously wrong. Same in Ireland where they say they are not British. The full title of the institution is a bit of a mouthfull, so you can understand the shorthand. "The Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", does not slip off the tongue very easily. Face it, the word Kingdom refers to a monarchs domain. Here is the COD definition -
kingdom // n.
1 an organized community headed by a king.
2 the territory subject to a king.
3 a the spiritual reign attributed to God (Thy kingdom come). b the sphere of this (kingdom of heaven).
4 a domain belonging to a person, animal, etc.
5 a province of nature (the vegetable kingdom).
6 a specified mental or emotional province (kingdom of the heart; kingdom of fantasy).
7 Biol. the highest category in taxonomic classification.
come into (or to) one's kingdom achieve recognition or supremacy.
kingdom come colloq. eternity; the next world.
till kingdom come colloq. for ever.
[Old English cyningdom (as king)]

Nat a mention of a nation or country there.
 
 
# Holebender 2012-01-28 07:00
STOP!!! Why do you persist with this United Kingdom nonsense?

How can two independent countries be one United Kingdom?
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-28 16:17
Easy as I've been saying for years. They have the same monarch - simple as that.
What was Scotland between 1603 and 1707?
I kingdom with a monarch that it shared with three other countries but with a parliament of her own. What will Scotland be if the Referendum ends in a yes vote? An independent country with a monarch that Scotland shares with 15 commonwealth countries and with three other United Kingdom Countries. What IS your problem with that? Is Cannada, New Zealand, Australia and so not ndependent countries? Kingdom means domain or domains of a monarch. She rules over none of them as they are all constitutional monarchies. The head of state's powers are delegated to the elected representatives of the people.
 
 
# Robert Louis 2012-01-27 11:54
I would advise all those with an interest to invest time in reading the proceedings from the House of Lords yesterday. (26/1/12), where a motion was debated regarding the legislative consent required for the truly atrocious Scotland bill going through Westmonster.

Source; publications.parliament.uk/.../...


As you will recall, even if this atrocious Scotland act (Calman) is passed by Wesminster, it would under the sewell convention require consent from the Scotish parliament before it can be passed.

I watched the debate, and in particular, it was very telling the way in which Jim Wallace conducted himself. On two occasions, Michael Forsyth (Tory) interrupted Jim Wallace, and asked for a clear explanation of what the Westminster Government planned to do, if the Scottish parliament did not approve the bill. On the first occasion, Jim Wallace indulged in complete obfuscation. When asked again to set out the approach that would be taken by Westminster, he said;



The unelected Michael Forsyth asked firstly;

"I have considerable respect for my noble and learned friend, and perhaps I may ask him to answer a straightforward question. In the absence of a legislative consent Motion, will the Government proceed with the Bill to Royal Assent, and implement it; or is it their position that without a legislative consent Motion, the Bill will not go ahead? It is important that Members of the Scottish Parliament know the score."


Then on the second occasion, he asked;


"I am sorry to press my noble and learned friend. I am asking not about the negotiations but about the constitutional position. So far as the Government are concerned, is the constitutional position such that they will not proceed to put this legislation on to the statute book in the absence of a legislative consent Motion-or might they? I do not wish to prejudice the negotiations but I do want to have clarity on the status of legislative consent Motions. The noble Lord, Lord Sewel, gave us his view. I want to know the Government's view on the status of legislative consent Motions. The Motions apply not only to the negotiations on this Bill but to Section 30 orders."


The unelected Jim Wallace answered;

"My Lords, the point on Section 30 orders is clear-it is in statute. Statute law requires the consent of the Scottish Parliament and of each House in this Parliament. A convention is just that, a convention; it is not enshrined in statute. However, as the noble Lord, Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, said, if a convention has been operating for a period, you have to be careful about how you deal with it. I am not going to say anything today that might prejudice the way in which that convention is dealt with."


After 2 hours and 17 minutes, the conclusion of the unelected house of Lords, was that the best way to address the question of sewell in relation to the Scotland bill (Calman), was stated that the best way forward was not to ask the question in the first place.

A fudge in common speak.


Aside from the usual nonsense from the egotistical and frankly patronising unelected Lords, this wee gem emerged from the mouth of Jim Wallace, amidst a great deal of snorting and chuckling on his part. He clearly thought it very clever, clever on his part;

"The noble Lord, Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, warned that the First Minister was perhaps taking the view that the way to get rid of bad tenants is for them to annoy the neighbours. It is a good analogy up to a point, but the point is that we are not tenants. We helped to build the house and we co-own it. That is why the union is so valuable to us."


That one statement really sums up the arrogance of Westminster in relation to Scotland. I'd venture to suggest that soon the unelected (and unelectable) Jim Wallace might become less popular in Scotland than even David Cameron. He is a man whose self aggrandizement and sneering responses in the house of Lords and elsewhere, betrays how insignificant in reality he actually is.

The SNP should watch such debates, because it is very clear having watched the debates yesterday, that engaging with Westminster on the Scotland bill or indeed the independence referendum, is akin to engaging with the devil himself.

Make no mistake, they fully intend forcing the Scotland bill, regardless of the wishes of the Scottish parliament. They will overturn the sewell convention if required.

To describe them ALL as a parcel of rogues, is indeed a compliment.
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-27 12:09
Robert Louis
Read Prof Black's comment above. I think the Lord's think they are working inside a fence created by the Scotland Act.

rblackqc
"But international law really becomes relevant to the mechanism whereby Scotland would once again become an independent country only if the legislature set up by the Treaty of Union (the Westminster Parliament) fails to act on the clearly expressed wishes of the people of Scotland."
 
 
# Robert Louis 2012-01-27 12:13
Thanks. The debate is worth a watch, just simply in order to get a measure of those involved, and their principles (or lack of).
 
 
# Massacre1965 2012-01-27 12:45
watched some of it and commented earlier on - it was appalling.
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-27 12:44
Jings, it took a Welshman and a Sikh to ask the noble Scottish lords to temper their abusive language about the FM.

They all seem to think they are witty and smart. Forsyth, Foulkes and Liddle. What a shower! This is what our money is spend on. grrrrrr.
 
 
# bringiton 2012-01-27 12:49
RL,at the very least they seem to be preparing the ground for declaring any YES outcome as being illegal.
Whatever the will of the Scottish people, that will never be accepted in the Palace of Westminster unless it suits their purposes.
 
 
# Triangular Ears 2012-01-27 13:07
If this happens, then it becomes a clear case for UDI and involving the international community.

Personally, I think the Scottish government should be involving international bodies from the start. UN election observers for example.

How could the unionists argue that this is rigging things? Surely there could be no disagreement to having international observers involved?
 
 
# Siôn Jones 2012-01-27 17:20
Jimmy Carter foundation?
 
 
# Soixante-neuf 2012-01-27 13:54
That hare won't run. Not the ghost of a shred of a chance.
 
 
# jjmac 2012-01-27 11:54
OS, There is another reason.
All these non elected tossers in the House of Lords will be chucked out and all the unionists with a vision of being draped in ermine will suddenly find that that dream is not achievable any more.
Yes, I am referring to our "parcel of rogues".
 
 
# FREEDOM1 2012-01-27 15:38
offensive comment removed - NNS Mod Team
 
 
# sneckedagain 2012-01-27 12:02
Poll in the Record today
We are presently ahead

Vote!!!!!


www.dailyrecord.co.uk/.../
 
 
# GrassyKnollington 2012-01-27 12:17
Good article and nice to finish with an upside!

I was thinking this morning of the day before the May 2011 election and driving towards Aberdeen on the A96 and seeing the sea of yellow SNP flags in fields and lamposts.

It was a heartening sight and made me very optimistic about the election result.

I'm now fast forwarding in my mind to Autumn 2014 and the eve of our independence referendum. I expect to see a sea of saltires and posters saying YES all over Scotland and plan to put up as many as I can.

The dependency parties will have to cover our gorgeous countryside with posters saying NO and the union flag.

It's a powerful image for Scots to look out on is it not ?

That magical eve of referendum scene will be the most difficult of all for them to counter.
 
 
# mato21 2012-01-27 12:35
That could be the most powerful image of all.The talking will be over and the heart will have taken over

And I believe the Saltire will always win that battle
 
 
# Siôn Jones 2012-01-27 17:22
The heart will take over - the head having already made the only rational decision - YES!
 
 
# Woodside 2012-01-27 16:43
Quoting GrassyKnollingt on:
Good article and nice to finish with an upside!

I was thinking this morning of the day before the May 2011 election and driving towards Aberdeen on the A96 and seeing the sea of yellow SNP flags in fields and lamposts.

It was a heartening sight and made me very optimistic about the election result.

I'm now fast forwarding in my mind to Autumn 2014 and the eve of our independence referendum. I expect to see a sea of saltires and posters saying YES all over Scotland and plan to put up as many as I can.

The dependency parties will have to cover our gorgeous countryside with posters saying NO and the union flag.

It's a powerful image for Scots to look out on is it not ?

That magical eve of referendum scene will be the most difficult of all for them to counter.


It will be very difficult for the unionist to get a clear message out- if they put NO over the union flag some could interpret that as saying no to the union, if they put YES over a union flag then the it is saying yes to the union, but they don't want the word YES to appear anywhere. All they will be left with will be a NO over a Saltire- well that will go down really well as it puts the truth out to everyone- they are saying No to Scotland. They really are in a no win situation on all fronts- wonderful!
 
 
# GrassyKnollington 2012-01-27 17:36
lol good point

YES on the union flag = lead balloon.

Claiming back the saltire from the "separatists" ( without acknowledging how this would be rejecting the union flag they're supposed to be fighting to save) and putting NO on the saltire = even heavier lead balloon.

Splendid.
 
 
# Froster 2012-01-27 23:19
Quoting GrassyKnollingt on:
I'm now fast forwarding in my mind to Autumn 2014 and the eve of our independence referendum. I expect to see a sea of saltires and posters saying YES all over Scotland and plan to put up as many as I can.

The dependency parties will have to cover our gorgeous countryside with posters saying NO and the union flag.

It's a powerful image for Scots to look out on is it not ?

That magical eve of referendum scene will be the most difficult of all for them to counter.


It's a great idea and it's something I've also been thinking about too. In the run up to the referendum, every household should be sent an A3 or A4 Saltire to display in their window should they wish to do so.
 
 
# mato21 2012-01-27 23:23
A good bit of work for a wee Scottish firm making them and with the war chest there should be no problem paying for them Great idea
 
 
# nchanter 2012-01-27 12:22
I would like to commend the author of this excellent piece. I like many other who might be put off with too many figures percentages etc will find this easy to picture which is the whole point of journalism. I look forward to more of the same.
 
 
# rhymer 2012-01-27 12:35
Apart from a masive reduction in political drivel,has anyone calculated how much money Scotland would save after independence when we won't gave to payi for the House of Lords?
 
 
# bringiton 2012-01-27 12:55
One thing is certain,the contribution to the reduction of CO2 atmospheric levels will be greatly reduced.
 
 
# mato21 2012-01-27 13:55
From this bunch of auld f--ts there will be a reduction in more gasses than CO2
 
 
# Mei 2012-01-27 15:24
800 lords X £300 per day X 5 days per week x 50 weeks per year = £60,000,000 x 0.086 = £5,160,000 approximately.
That is just attendance allowances.
 
 
# gfaetheblock 2012-01-28 00:12
Interesting point. Few will defend the Lords, but would an independent Scotland not be bicameral?

What's the approach to checks and balances that is being propised?
 
 
# Islegard 2012-01-28 00:19
"Interesting point. Few will defend the Lords." Well except you.

Do you know how the Scottish Parliament works? It doesnt have an unelected bunch of sponging chancers lording over it. Neither do other countries. Their lardships are unique to England. It sounds like you quite like unelected individuals undermining democracy. Buy a ticket to Syria.

You're not a lord are you? Pick up your P45 at the end of 2014. We'll be seeing lords a plenty in the queue of soup kitchens then.

Whatever Scotland does post independence it will involve democracy not lords
 
 
# gfaetheblock 2012-01-28 00:30
Bicameral systems can work in many ways, usually elected. Germany or America for example. The Scottish parliament has a limited responsibility to make decisions on, the question I was asking was do we need checks and balances in place if it had more power?

Thought the lords did a good job of rejecting the benefits cuts this week, don't you agree?
 
 
# Islegard 2012-01-28 00:34
Again you support the Lords. No I don't agree. You are picking individual items rather than looking at the whole picture. Look no further than the Scotland Bill to see a bunch of unelected individuals subverting democracy for their own greedy ends.

Tell me what would be your preference a "House of lords" or a democratically elected second chamber?
 
 
# gfaetheblock 2012-01-28 00:37
Democratically elected second chamber 100%.
 
 
# Islegard 2012-01-28 00:40
If that is the case stop defending the House of lards and speak up for a democratically elected second chamber. Post independence we can do what the people of Scotland desire in terms of democracy.

Do you agree the House of lords is full of unelected, undemocratic individuals there by reward and on the take?
 
 
# gfaetheblock 2012-01-28 00:48
The Lords is a poor and outdated institution, but there will be some good people doing good things there. I would prefer a federal UK.
 
 
# Islegard 2012-01-28 00:51
Again you avoided answering the question. There are no parties who support federalism however so what will you do then?
 
 
# gfaetheblock 2012-01-28 00:40
so you are pro benefits cuts, or against the lords trying to block it?

I'm an athiest, but 'mon the Bishops on this one.
 
 
# Islegard 2012-01-28 00:44
Interesting I already answered that but you avoided answering my question. You speak with forked tongue.
 
 
# Islegard 2012-01-28 00:46
gfaetheblock why you are a unionist. Tell me as a unionist aren't you slightly tempted by independence? Though if you want to defend the house of lords you are falling far from the democracy tree.
 
 
# gfaetheblock 2012-01-28 01:00
Thanks for asking. I have yet to see a well made argument for independence, i hear lots of rhetoric, but nothing substantial.

I believe the cost of separation is a drain on national resources for no real benefit.

I think that the fact that the political debate is focused on independence for three years distracts from the employment, health and violence issues that blight us.

I am proud off and enjoy being a British Scot.

A government is a government, they all disappoint, irrespective of the jurisdiction.
 
 
# Islegard 2012-01-28 01:11
Exactly however you chose to hide. I have yet to see a well made argument for independence, i hear lots of rhetoric, but nothing substantial.

Do you not believe in democracy and freedom? Do you not believe a country should make decisions for itself.

The London government has bungled the economy and squandered Scotlands oil landing itself in £4.8 triilion of debt.

Scotlands tax returns have been in surplus for years. Englands in deficit for years. Scotland could be like Norway instead of bogged down by London rule.

You say "I think that the fact that the political debate is focused on independence for three years distracts from the employment, health and violence issues that blight us." Give an example of this with a reference.
Employment is 95% reserved to westminster if you want Scotland to act on this Scotland has to have full control of employment. If your not happy with employment so far that is westminster. "Violence issues" I'm not aware of any can you explain and reference.

"I am proud off and enjoy being a British Scot."

You can't be both Scottish and british. Scottish is to be proud of being Scottish and want a free, democratic country making decisions which best suits it. To be british means you want Scotland to continue being dependent on London with us being called spongers and wasters. Ridiculed and made fun of.

The fact you didn't say Scottish brit also highlights you can't be both you put England/Britain before Scotland.
 
 
# gfaetheblock 2012-01-28 08:59
enjoyed the debate,had to go to bed!

Google 'scotland knife crime' and there are the references.

£10M spent of a referendum is £10M that could be spent on Scottish people. If the union prevails, we will see nothing for that money.

Happy to refer to myself as a Scottish Brit, although I appreciate if you are pro independent it would seem odd to be proud of being British. this is a matter of opinion rather than fact though.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-28 17:08
Just read a report yesterday on English Knife crime rising fast, and watched a TV show of figures for dishonesty in England increasing fast. Then we have the gun crime that is through the roof in London and several other places including West Midlands. The worst Scottish figures are a disgraceful 18% child poverty in one Glasgow constituency. However, there are child poverty figures in several London Boroughs of over 40%. Think I'm kidding?

Read this wee snatch, “It is hard to believe that in 21st century Britain, four out of 10 children
are living in poverty in one of the richest cities in the world. And yet in
London it is not just that child poverty rates are higher than elsewhere
in the country, families are more likely to be deeper in poverty, more
likely to be without a job, to have fewer choices about their housing
and to face multiple disadvantages.”

You will get the full report here - 213.86.122.139/.../...

What else can you expect but dud information if you only read biased Scottish papers or watch and listen to the biased Scottish BBC and ITN.

Do what reasonable folk do – check every detail in those gutter press and biased broadcasters.
 
 
# Islegard 2012-01-28 17:24
Fair enough! It was late fortunately I was kept fueled by alcohol!
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-28 16:45
Ever read the GERS Reports? Even they do not arrive at the real figures as there is little information to base exact figures upon. During the past year or so we have seen things that are charged to Scotland but not to England. Here are a few - The Scottish Crown Estates rentals & Royalties were once run from Edinburgh. These were removed and given to the English/Irish/Welsh Crown Estate Trustees to run from England. The money goes to the Treasury and is not classed as income from Scotland. Yet Scotland has the longest shoreline in Britain. The fines levied in Scottish courts goes directly to the Treasury. The UK Embassies charge the Scots up to £3,000 to host Scottish presentations in foreign countries, other UK countries go for free. All that not to mention that up to 98% of North Sea revenues comes from Scottish territorial waters but we are only credited with 8% as Scottish income. VAT from such as ASDA is earned all over the UK and ASDA pays that and other tax from a London Head Office none of that tax is shown as being from Scotland. On the funding side of the books Scotland gets a block grant and gets nothing else. England is funded as the UK and that is neither detailed nor is it capped . Then we have the many things funded in London that are not counted as English funding. Need any more info?
 
 
# Islegard 2012-01-28 17:26
Auld Bob Is the latest GERS still showing Scotland in surplus?
 
 
# rog_rocks 2012-01-27 12:55
I see the Telegraph have finished their poll on Scottish independence and because we won (just) they declare this;

"Mr Salmond’s preferred question, asking voters whether they “agree” Scotland should become independent is posed, was the only one to result in a majority for breaking up the UK."

They are now running another three polls using different questions;

telegraph.co.uk/.../...

My view is that it is Scotland’s question and therefore Scotland’s choice of question, they do seem desperate.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-01-27 13:07
"The result bears out his warning the question was so “loaded and biased” in favour of separation that he would refuse to answer and it would have a “dramatic” effect on the outcome."

Epic logic fail.
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-27 13:11
Strange they reverse the order of the result compared with the question. ?:-)
 
 
# Triangular Ears 2012-01-27 13:12
OK, let's accept for a moment the argument that the word "agree" is loaded.

Why have the Telegraph not simply amended this point and changed the question to:

"Do you think Scotland should be an independent country?"

All of their alternative questions are hugely loaded in favour of the union.

Absolutely pathetic.
 
 
# Triangular Ears 2012-01-27 13:13
Was half-expecting to see:

"Do you want Scotland to be an independent country and for Alex Salmond to punch a kitten in the face?"
 
 
# Diabloandco 2012-01-27 13:51
Leave that kitten alone - I can line up a great number of bi-peds I would prefer to meet that bunch of fives .Indeed I ahve just been watching three of them in the HoL.
 
 
# Siôn Jones 2012-01-27 17:27
I have to say that if the choice was between'independence' and 'punch an old etonian tory in the nose' I would have to take a second to consider the matter. However, I would still vote for independence, despite denying myself great pleasure and fulfilment in the process.
 
 
# ianbeag 2012-01-27 22:14
Sion
You could move up to Scotland next year and qualify for a vote! You would be very welcome.
 
 
# GrassyKnollington 2012-01-27 13:20
Quote:
OK, let's accept for a moment the argument that the word "agree" is loaded.


Well ok but to do that we must accept that when Scots "agreed" that there should be a Scottish parliament and "agreed" that it should have tax varying powers that was also loaded.

Don't recall the dependency parties getting too exercised about the wording then.
 
 
# Triangular Ears 2012-01-27 13:33
A very good point. I couldn't quite remember the wording of these referendums. Thanks.
 
 
# rog_rocks 2012-01-27 16:26
Indeed, well remembered, here is a breakdown of the questions and results organised by the UK gov't of the last Scottish referendum, from wiki;

en.wikipedia.org/.../...


Question 1

Firstly the referendum asked voters:

I agree that there should be a Scottish Parliament.
I do not agree that there should be a Scottish Parliament.

Agree :
1,775,045 (74.3%) Disagree :
614,400 (25.7%)

Question 2

Secondly the referendum asked:

I agree that a Scottish Parliament should have tax-varying powers.
I do not agree that a Scottish Parliament should have tax-varying powers.

Agree :
1,512,889 (63.5%) Disagree :
870,263 (36.5%)
 
 
# Teri 2012-01-27 20:08
The reason that the results are all different in the Telegraph polls is that most people vote on the first poll and dont bother to scroll down the page to find the others as they dont know they are there. Had they put the 5 different polls together without all that blurb in between, people would have known to do them all.
It has absolutely nothing to do with it being a leading question. Incidentally, in a letter to the Times today a reader points out the Westminster government used a 'Do you agree that' question on the high speed rail link during the consultation process, expecting to get a positive response. Two thirds of respondents voted NO so it doesnt elicit the response they want. However they ignored the responses and went ahead anyway. Does this mean that if we ask this so called loaded question and two thirds say NO, we can go ahead anyway, as they did with plans for High Speed rail. I think not.
One rule for them, quite another for the minions here in Scotland.
 
 
# uilleam_beag 2012-01-28 06:36
Precisely. I voted earlier on the main one, using the Scottish government's proposed question, and was given no indication that there were alternative polls running concurrently. It's a classic fix, and a totally false comparison. When I checked just now there had been well over 15,000 votes for the first poll, less than 6,000 for the first "alternative question" and progressively fewer until the last, at just over 4,000. What's more the 'yes' and 'no' applets kept swapping places, variously above and below one another.

Despite the paper's assertion that more than 1,000 people were polled in each, internet polls like this can never be considered the slightest bit representative. That said, it's encouraging that we can get a positive result from readers of the Telegraph -- the real vote could be a riddle by comparison! (I know, theyjust want shot of us "subsidy junkies", but I don't mind grasping at straws every once in a while.)
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-28 17:23
Run enough polls with enough twisted questions and sooner or later you get the result you want.
 
 
# daveniz 2012-01-27 12:55
the unionists have lost the argument if they had a solid argument for the union they wouldn't need to attack the person or group but they do! it shows that they can't attack the idea of Independance because they have nothing with the facts of independance and that destroys there arguments of the union!
 
 
# sneckedagain 2012-01-27 12:55
Excellent letter from Professor Black in today's Herald.

This legal stuff is all bluff and bluster.
They still don't get it. The more they block the higher independence support goes.
O/T I am having difficulty understanding how Moore and Alexander ever got elected to anything. They are not just hopeless. They are absurd.
 
 
# Jim Johnston 2012-01-27 12:56
Referendum question bamboozles Unionist brains.

According to Forsyth, Darling, "Prof" John, and some punkah or dhobi wallah who is running a poll company, the referendum question the Scots will be asked is a LOADED question ????

Their idea of a straight question would be Do you agree or not that Scotland should be an independent country. YES / NO.

Is there a brain sharper than mine out there who can explain their "clear" question to me.

Is the answer to their straight clear question -

YES I agree, or YES I agree I do NOT agree.
OR
NO I agree not to agree, or NO I don't agree that I do not agree.

Where did these nutters learn English ?.

It may have to come back to a one word question so these idiots can understand it.

INDEPENDENCE....YES / NO

Then of course, they dont know what Independence means anyway. That must be why they need a definition every five minutes.

Very sad people really. Hurry doctor, I think Forsyth, Darling, the good "Prof" etc etc., are suffering acute anal-cranial inversion, they certainly have a strange colour about the gills.

I don't like the look of "this" or "that" !! (Chic Murray)
 
 
# jafurn 2012-01-27 13:18
Agreed jim lets make it easy for them to understand..

INDEPENDENCE....YES / NO
 
 
# iReferee 2012-01-27 14:02
How about:

Please tick the appropriate box:

Independence |_|

Dependence |_|
 
 
# Jester 2012-01-27 14:43
Quoting Jim Johnston:
Referendum question bamboozles Unionist brains.

According to Forsyth, Darling, "Prof" John, and some punkah or dhobi wallah who is running a poll company, the referendum question the Scots will be asked is a LOADED question ????

Their idea of a straight question would be Do you agree or not that Scotland should be an independent country. YES / NO.

Is there a brain sharper than mine out there who can explain their "clear" question to me.

Is the answer to their straight clear question -

YES I agree, or YES I agree I do NOT agree.
OR
NO I agree not to agree, or NO I don't agree that I do not agree.

Where did these nutters learn English ?.

It may have to come back to a one word question so these idiots can understand it.

INDEPENDENCE....YES / NO

Then of course, they dont know what Independence means anyway. That must be why they need a definition every five minutes.

Very sad people really. Hurry doctor, I think Forsyth, Darling, the good "Prof" etc etc., are suffering acute anal-cranial inversion, they certainly have a strange colour about the gills.

I don't like the look of "this" or "that" !! (Chic Murray)

It's about positivity.
Here's two questions:
1) Do you agree Scotland should be an independent country?
2) Do you wish Scotland to remain part of the UK?
The devolution referendum was worded in accordance with No1, as the Yes was in line with the governments objectives.
If a referendum were to be held with the wording as in No2, the roles are reversed, the unionists then get to mount a yes campaign (positive) against a No for independence campaign (negative).
 
 
# pmcrek 2012-01-27 15:13
I think the main problem with:

Do you wish Scotland to remain part of the UK?

Is that a "no" majority doesn't give a mandate for independence, something I would argue is essential to having the whole "Scottish Independence referendum" thing that the electorate wanted in the first place...


Alistair Darling is clearly a muppet for suggesting this.
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-27 15:55
As Auld Bob explains, there are two concepts of the UK.

1. Two kingdoms were united by the union of the crowns to form a United Kingdom.

2. The parliamentary union that formed the Parliament of GB, now referred to as the UK parliament.

So better keep UK off this ballot (for now.) :)
 
 
# Holebender 2012-01-28 09:18
Not you as well! Explain to me how two independent countries can be one united kingdom.

By your logic Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc. are a United Kingdom. Do you think somebody should tell them?
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-28 17:44
They are a united Kingdom. They all have the one monarch.
Now YOU explain to us what the word Kingdom means?
Mind you I have already posted the Concise Oxford Dictionary definitions. Not one mentions country or nation.
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-28 14:49
My mistake.

See rblackqc 2012-01-28 07:52

"The events of 1603 did not create a United Kingdom. What happened was that a single monarch thereafter wore two crowns as James VI of Scotland and James I of England (NOT James I of the United Kingdom)."
 
 
# uilleam_beag 2012-01-28 06:45
The suggestion of asking if we want to stay in the UK is so muddled and wrong-headed it would be laughable - if only this wasn't such a serious issue. It's great from a unionist's point of view, because it is rigged to engender uncertainty and insecurity, thence minimising the votes for a breakup. Either way, the result would bring a total lack of clarity as who could tell what a 'no' would bring about?
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-28 17:49
The biggest by far is the full title of the Wastemonster Parliament.

"The Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

The fact that people shorten these things does not change the correct titles.

The UK, Britain, The British Isles, Great Britain, The Whole Country, The Country. Greater Britain, Blighty --- to misname but a few.
 
 
# Woodside 2012-01-27 16:32
With the majority of MSP's in the last parliament the unionists could have had any wording they wanted on the referendum ballot paper. Still feeling that the 2007 SNP win was a blip and that "normal" service would be resumed in 2011 they took the gamble that all they had to do was block the referendum and it would disappear- well their cynical political gamble backfired spectacularly- that's politics.

They had their chance are are now crying crocodile tears because they were comprehensively gubbed at the polls last year- don't our hearts bleed for them- not. Mrs.Lamont wants cross party talks on the wording- AS should tell her Labour had their chance in the last parliament and didn't take it.
 
 
# Caadfael 2012-01-27 13:00
Comic poll, 56.9 to 43.1 @12.59
Aye, its oming yet for aa that!!
 
 
# jjmac 2012-01-27 13:01
"Dhobi Wallah" Nice one Jim, reminds me of my younger years in the Merchant Navy.
 
 
# Welsh Sion 2012-01-27 13:07
O/T

Apologies if this has already been posted elsewhere.

Many of you will remember the British Future website which seems essentially a monolingual English, Unionist vehicle.

I enclose the following link which some of you might wish to comment on there or here:

britishfuture.org/.../...

Note. This was written and published before Alex Salmond's presentation at Holyrood and the subsequent press conference. (Indeed, before his 'Mugabe moment' with the Pac-man).

Try as I might, I can't find any reference to Alex's plans for the 2014 Referendum on the BF site. As many of us say, these proposals will be the biggest thing to affect Scotland and her relationship with the remainder of the Benighted Kingdom in over 300 years. So where's the mention of them?

Apologies also if this is an old chestnut - but, when you do become free, please don't refer to the rest of us on the large island (and some of the northern part of the larger island to the west) as the 'former United Kingdom' or *** for short. (Dear Mods. The asterisks are mine.)
 
 
# Triangular Ears 2012-01-27 13:24
OT, but finally some sense from down south about the Nuclear Subs:

telegraph.co.uk/.../...

Quote:
MoD insiders believe that, after an independence vote, ministers in London would have no choice but to strike a deal with Scottish leaders allowing the Navy to go on using Coulport and Faslane until an alternative was ready.


Quote:
The most likely legal model would be the Irish “treaty ports”. After Irish independence in 1922, Britain continued to use several Irish ports as naval bases, only handing them back shortly before the outbreak of the Second World War.


This is what level-headed commentators have been saying for ages.

The bottom line is that hysterical comments are made about Scotland being made to do this or that, but eventually it comes down to NEGOTIATION.

If only London thought about that word a bit more then perhaps they wouldn't feel the need for the weapons in the first place.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-01-27 14:11
MoD insiders believe that, after an independence vote, ministers in London would have no choice but to strike a deal with Scottish leaders allowing the Navy to go on using Coulport and Faslane until an alternative was ready.

I would not be so cooperative. Whilst they are there, there is the potential for a nuclear accident.
 
 
# pmcrek 2012-01-27 15:16
Yeah, we can give them one months leeway and inform them the weapons will be dismantled if they are still in Scotland after that time.

I thoroughly expect Westminster to put the subs in Berwick though to piss us off. We'd be [probably better just dismantling them anyway.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-28 18:31
The weapons in storage are nuclear too.
 
 
# Legerwood 2012-01-27 14:35
I believe it is the case that Ireland, because it had to accept the bases, turned round and told the UK where to stick the bill they, Ireland, were given as their share of the National Debt.

The rUK can have the use of the bases for the subs until they make other arrangement BUT they can store the nuclear warheads elsewhere.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-28 18:32
The reactors in the subs are probably more dangerouse than the weapons. Nukes don't go into thermal runaway nor do they leak contaminated coolants.
 
 
# Embradon 2012-01-27 18:08
The britnat loonies are out in force in the Torygraph comments today!
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-28 18:30
And then again, taking into account the wishes of the people of Scotlan, The Scottish Goverenment mat just tell them to sling their hooks. Furthermore, we own part of those subs. and of every single weapon on or off board them. We also own part of every other weapon, ship aircraft and a bit of every bit of equipment. After they settle their bills for whatever we don't want of our share of the various lots then They may find they can no longer manage to raise enough cash to run the bloody things anyway.
 
 
# Jim1320 2012-01-27 13:50
“The question is loaded. He is inviting people to endorse the separation of a successful independent nation.”

Darling said the above. I generally believe my powers of comprehension are good but I can't make head nor tail of that. Is he saying Scotland would be a successful nation or is he saying Britain is a successful nation?

Note: Do not let Darling frame the question because nobody will know which box to pick.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-28 18:34
Well I thought he meant that The United Kingdom was the successful Nation and Scotland was Really not part of it anyway.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-01-27 14:05
On the Daily Politics today there was some video shown of the debate in the Lords about the referendum, with the usual suspects (Foulkes, Forsyth et al) calling Alex Salmond names. It was good that the programme actually showed this and also the leader of the Welsh nationalists complaining about the intemperate language being used against Salmond. It is nice to know who your friends are.

I think Brillo will be getting it in the neck from viewers over the way he treated his female guest. He would not let her finish a sentence and he even turned away from her in mid-speak to talk to one of the other guests. In the finest name-calling tradition of the House of Lords I would describe him (Brillo) as an ignorant pig and a bully who knows how to treat someone badly who appears to be weaker than him! He gets away with too much.
 
 
# scotsmanc1 2012-01-27 14:19
First time I have posted but appreciate all the comments on this site. It is a refreshing change from the constant bias and lack of objectivity in the mainstream media so thank you all.

Reading the press today I wanted to make reference to the latest scaremongering from guess who.?

Beware of a man be it friend or a brother,
whose hair is one colour and eyebrows another.
 
 
# uilleam_beag 2012-01-28 06:51
Ceud mille failte. Welcome to the comments community, Scotsmanc1, hope you have fun here.
 
 
# iReferee 2012-01-27 14:20
DR poll 14:20:

Yes: 59%
No: 41%

I think that the poll will be quietly forgotten about by the Daily Rag
 
 
# J Wil 2012-01-27 14:26
When you hear the DR political editor, Magnus Gardham, on the TV he seems entirely reasonable. He seems to turn into a monster when he writes his editorial rubbish. Jekyll and Hyde? What is he on?
 
 
# gus1940 2012-01-27 16:07
I've noticed the same thing when Eddie Barnes is on TV - he seems reasonable compared with the biased cr-p that appears in The Scotsman under his by-line.
 
 
# pmcrek 2012-01-27 14:22
For anyone wondering what its like to watch an unbiased report on Scottish independence on a Uk news channel:

www.youtube.com/.../

Al Jazeera, putting the BBC to shame again, can we give them our license fee instead please?
 
 
# Old Smokey 2012-01-27 14:30
Interesting that Al Jazeera can manage to find a pro independence businessman to discuss,but the BBC find that difficult
 
 
# pmcrek 2012-01-27 14:37
Yeah apparently the BBC cant even find 50 independence supporters to balance a studio.
 
 
# iReferee 2012-01-27 14:25
Although, regarding the DR poll, I smell a rat. I received an email from them asking to respond to the poll by email. The poll has three questions:
1. Do you live in Scotland
2. Do you agree Scotland should be an independent country
3. Do you want Scotland to stay in the UK or not

Now supposing the majority of DR subscribers are unionists this email poll will see big support for option 3. I think they will then try to spin the results as showing how loaded question 2 is. By this I mean, for example, they will say that when asked if Scotland should be independent 60% agree but when asked if we should stay in the UK 80% agree. What they may neglect to say is that the sample was different.

Maybe I am wrong, not accusing anyone of anything, just find it pretty odd.
 
 
# pmcrek 2012-01-27 15:00
Any difference in support will be because question 3 is completely untenable, it offers no alternative to the status quo.

Polls and surveys cant really ask people if they want something we already have when the alternative is not defined. For example the AV referendum couldn't ask "Do you want to keep FPTP?"

Because a yes answer doesn't actually give a mandate for AV.

If a survey asked:

1) Do you want to get rid of FPTP?
and:
2) Do you want to implement AV?

Number 1) would have much greater support than number 2), not because the question is biased, but because clearly less people support FPTP than do support AV.There are people who would vote yes on 1) but who would never vote yes on 2) in a referendum.

Similarly, some independence supporting Scots probably do want to remain in the UK in "some capacity" rather than want to leave completely. Such people would likely say yes to both questions in different surveys and create a difference between the two vote shares.
 
 
# Jim Johnston 2012-01-27 15:00
No iReferee,
You're right enough in your assessment of the Daily Retard.
 
 
# parsonrussell 2012-01-27 14:35
It's conveniant that they hold up the act of the unions to tell us the reforendum will be illegal, yet Thatchers Tory government had no qualms about breaking the same act when they introduced the poll tax to Scotland a year earlier than in England.
 
 
# Jim Johnston 2012-01-27 14:55
I like this article, it puts fire in the hearts of every believer in Scotland true destiny.

Brillo, like Paxo could care less what the Scots say do or think of them. They are paid mega bucks to front for the Union.

It is becoming clearer by the day that millions of Scots are making their mind up to be Independent. Most folks are just waiting for the SNP to publish the completely open and honest facts about the truely astonishing wealth of Scotland, the defence needs of Scotland and the brilliant future of a caring and compassionate Scotland. We already have no malice towards anyone, that is why we are genuinely respected the world over.
The undeniable true facts we can expect fro the SNP will give them all the strength they need in the ballot box to say YES YES and YESSSSSSSSSSSS AGAIN to INDEPENDENCE.

The Scots have given up in massive droves awaiting any truth coming from any Unionist wallah, clap trap numpties mouths. The only positive thing coming from the Unionists is their positive PANIC. Just look at even the biased rigged opinion poll results being published. Cameron and Cleggie only have to open their mouths, (never mind Cameron and his back bench wench making an ass of themselves trying to quote from Burns),to pile on more support for Independence. The brain dead mouth pieces they continually shuffle on the tv screens are unbelievably dumb turn offs for the Union.

I'm glad I contribute absolutely nothing towards Brillo and Paxo's pay packet.
 
 
# Clarinda 2012-01-27 15:06
I suspect that the SNP may have inserted a little semantic slack to draw the unionist pop-gun fire as the potential refinement of the Yes to Independence question may result in even greater clarity.
I'm certain that the SNP know every point or issue presented will trigger the robotic unionist reflex and so are currently content, for the moment, to hand out plenty of rope.
The preposterous Lord Wallace certainly managed to ensnare himself in a remarkable display of diminishing returns
on the Big Debate (!?) programme despite it being probably biased in the unionist favour.
 
 
# bringiton 2012-01-27 15:20
Why don't we save everyone a lot of time and money and just get up a petition to be signed by all those in Scotland in agreement worded e.g.
We the undersigned hereby declare the Treaty of Union between Scotland and England to be dissolved.
Wouldn't that represent the sovereign will of the Scottish people if sufficient were in agreement?
We could petition our Scottish parliament to that effect.
 
 
# uilleam_beag 2012-01-28 06:55
Aye, that worked really well in 1950.
 
 
# EdinScot 2012-01-27 15:27
An independence referendum was now a certainty and what’s more, the new majority Scottish government held all the cards.
_______________ _______________ ___________

And this is what has the Unionists scared witless. They've lost control of Scotland and the more that emerges like the newsnet article from yesterday revealing the charging us Scots £3000 a pop to host events in the British Embassies when we as taxpayers are contributing for the upkeep of these same embassies. Astonishing stuff. Its news like this that has to get out there to the population at large as it will do the Unionist camp massive and irrepairable damage.

The more that time goes on, the more comes to our attention of treating Scots and Scotland like a colony. No wonder they changed from never wanting a referendum to now wanting one immediately. Theyve spotted the danger to theirselves and the leaking out of these double dealings coupled with offering us nothing to stay in their old decrepit stitch up of a Union. Its a sad state of affairs when you cant even trust the beeb with the selection process for the audience at the Big Debate from Pathetic Quay.

Really excellent article btw.
 
 
# raisethegame 2012-01-27 15:42
I've disliked Andrew Neil ever since I heard him say admiringly of the newly opened Scotsman headquarters in Holyrood Road Edinburgh (when he was Managing Editor)that it was "a good place to sack people". What an *rse.
 
 
# Marga B 2012-01-27 15:52
O/T, but has anyone seen this encouraging news re. Plaid membership?

guardian.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-28 18:53
I have no doubt that their fight is our fight and when we win they will soon go too.
 
 
# daveniz 2012-01-27 16:31
lol now lord snooty foulkes says the electrol commission is not fit for purpose and wants to overhaul it! they wanted it to conduct the independance referendum and were quite confident in it now its not fit for purpose a day after the SNP said okay me thinks they are looking for ways to rig the independance referendum!
 
 
# iReferee 2012-01-27 16:33
Update on DR poll:

Was sitting at 60% in favour of independence but has now been removed from home page :-)
 
 
# Caadfael 2012-01-27 16:38
Toys, pram?
 
 
# xyz 2012-01-27 16:49
63% percent in favour of independence when it was pulled.

The question was the one proposed the other day. (Do you agree Scotland should be an independent country?)

I was enjoying that .. the yes votes has been climbing all day ..
 
 
# Saoirse 2012-01-27 16:51
The Daily Record is running a survey on Scottish independence just now.

Opinions have to be submitted by 6pm tonight but you can have as many votes as you have email accounts.

quaydigitalscotland.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# Diabloandco 2012-01-27 17:48
The final question is too iffy for my taste.
 
 
# alasdairmac 2012-01-27 17:09
I have written to the herald today commending Professor Black's letter on the legality of the referendum. The same edition also carries a letter from a Dr Wolff in St Andrews who appears to believe that the UK was created by the Union of the Crowns in 1603 and that therefore the UK will continue post-independence. That I think is basically the Tory stance to back their view that Scotland would be a new country requiring to apply to join the EU, and not a succession state with equal status to England etc with automatic right to continuing membership.

As I've said in my letter, these are only opinions and what we need is a definative ruling from someone able to give it. Having said that, if Professor Black looks in again I'd love to hear his take on the continuation of the UK post independence and maybe if my letter is published he could respond to it in the Herald.
 
 
# rblackqc 2012-01-28 07:52
Your letter in The Herald is spot on. I've said so in a comment (still awaiting moderation, last time I looked).

The events of 1603 did not create a United Kingdom. What happened was that a single monarch thereafter wore two crowns as James VI of Scotland and James I of England (NOT James I of the United Kingdom). The expression "Union of the Crowns" is, and always has been, a misnomer. The Crowns were not united. They remained separate, as did the countries to which they related. James VI and I wanted to be styled James I of Great Britain but no legislation giving effect to his wish was ever passed. There was no United Kingdom until the Treaty and Acts of Union 1706/07.
 
 
# alasdairmac 2012-01-28 11:04
Thank you Professor Black. I notice that the Herald published it this morning as their "headline" letter. Interesting to see what other rersponses it gets.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-28 19:11
Where does that leave Wales and Ireland in 1603? What is more, where does it leave them in 1707 when they also became part of the new parliamentary setup but had no part in signing anything but the same monarch wore their crowns?
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-28 14:41
Excellent Letter, Alasdair. I still buy the Herald on a Saturday! I believe a concise and authoritative article, or articles, in NNS is needed on this subject. It would help a lot of us get a deeper understanding of our current position.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-28 19:06
I cannot see your thinking. If Scotland was an independent country in 1603 until 1707 but was also part of the United Kingdom it proves quite the opposite of what you think? Remember that a Kingdom and a country are not the same thing. The United Kingdom has one monarch and four countries. There is no doubt that Wales and N.Ireland are different countries. Ireland is one country but has part of it as a republic and part a province of The UK. What is all the confusion?
From the COD:
1 a the territory of a nation with its own government; a state. b a territory possessing its own language, people, culture, etc.
2 (often attrib.) rural districts as opposed to towns or the capital (a cottage in the country; a country town).
3 the land of a person's birth or citizenship; a fatherland or motherland.
4 a a territory, esp. an area of interest or knowledge. b a region associated with a particular person, esp. a writer (Hardy country).
5 a national population, esp. as voters (the country won't stand for it).
across country not keeping to roads.
go (or appeal) to the country Brit. test public opinion by dissolving Parliament and holding a general election.
in the country Cricket slang far from the wickets; in the deep field.
line of country Brit. a subject about which a person is knowledgeable.
unknown country an unfamiliar place or topic.
[Middle English via Old French cuntree from medieval Latin contrata (terra) ‘(land) lying opposite’ (as contra)]

Nation, kingdom, country, state are all different things.
 
 
# daveniz 2012-01-27 17:12
westminister can't get claim any legal right over the Scottish independance referendum and here's why!

www.un.org/.../index.shtml

"CHAPTER XI: (charter of the UN)
DECLARATION REGARDING NON-SELF-
GOVERNING TERRITORIES
Article 73
Members of the United Nations which
have or assume responsibilitie s for the
administration of territories whose
peoples have not yet attained a full
measure of self- government recognize
the principle that the interests of the
inhabitants of these territories are
paramount, and accept as a sacred
trust the obligation to promote to the
utmost, within the system of
international peace and security
established by the present Charter, the
well-being of the inhabitants of these
territories, and, to this end:
to ensure, with due respect for the
culture of the peoples concerned, their
political, economic, social, and
educational advancement, their just
treatment, and their protection against
abuses;
to develop self-government , to take
due account of the political aspirations
of the peoples, and to assist them in
the progressive development of their
free political institutions, according to
the particular circumstances of each
territory and its peoples and their
varying stages of advancement;
to further international peace and
security;
to promote constructive measures of
development, to encourage research,
and to co-operate with one another
and, when and where appropriate,
with specialized international bodies
with a view to the practical
achievement of the social, economic,
and scientific purposes set forth in this
Article; and
to transmit regularly to the Secretary-
General for information purposes,
subject to such limitation as security
and constitutional considerations may
require, statistical and other
information of a technical nature
relating to economic, social, and
educational conditions in the territories
for which they are respectively
responsible other than those territories
to which Chapters XII and XIII apply"

send to as many people you know and show them the Scottish parliament has the legal right no matter how many times Westminster tell us it illegal! Westminster think that if they tell a big enough lie (with the help of the unionist media not naming names BBC, daily record cough...) and keep repeating it then the people will come to beleive it! thank god the internet exposes there lies!
 
 
# alasdairmac 2012-01-27 17:39
regretably I'd have to suggest that there are far too many ambiguities and get-out clauses in there. For example "according to
the particular circumstances of each
territory and its peoples
. Lawyers could earn millions on that one alone.


I wish there wern't but......
 
 
# Siôn Jones 2012-01-27 17:36
What was the question in the referendum that was held to confirm the Treaty of Union?
 
 
# Seagetagrip 2012-01-27 17:37
O/T
NEWSWEEK SCOTLAND
Derek Batemans new blog open. Tomorrows programme looks fascinating!
 
 
# cynicalHighlander 2012-01-27 17:58
Scottish independence: so whose oil is it anyway?: bbc.co.uk/.../...

Seems England is open for comments and re-education.
 
 
# Arraniki 2012-01-27 17:39
Daily Record survey designed to confuse.

I emailed:

1a
2a
3b
 
 
# farrochie 2012-01-27 17:44
Do you want Scotland to stay in the UK or not?

Why did they include "or not" in the Q?
 
 
# Arraniki 2012-01-27 17:52
Pace farrochie 2012-01-27 17:44
Do you want Scotland to stay in the UK or not?

Why did they include "or not" in the Q?


Because they are incompetent and probably rushed it out when they saw the result of the earlier poll.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-01-27 19:14
It's a result that all sides could be satisfied with. A two-answer question requiring only one cross. Clever stuff.
 
 
# Legerwood 2012-01-27 21:37
Yes but in which box do you put your cross?
 
 
# rog_rocks 2012-01-27 18:18
If anyone doubts the word of Mr Cameron i.e. if he, along with his cohorts, Lamontt, Milliband, Moore or Clegg etc promise any kind of favourable adjustments to the Scotland bill or even to have a referendum on further devaluation, in the event of us voting no :O of course & hence for them, then...

www.youtube.com/.../

You doubted well;

"Don't you think that all of us should have a say, in the referendum that we were promised"

So what happened to the Euro referendum? Its funny, it strikes me that they are all on each others supposed sides, it wouldn't matter which of the Westminster team you voted for, you would get the same thing.

I guess here we are lucky as we really do have an alternative, Scotland, Holyrood, the 1st minister and the SNP team;

www.youtube.com/.../
www.youtube.com/.../

One side is right, the other is wrong, I know what my money's on.

IX
I
 
 
# J Wil 2012-01-27 18:59
I watched the Lords' debate on the Scotland bill for a time today. We have half a dozen or so unelected, ageing, ex Tory, LibDems and Labour MPs, patting each other on the back and dictating what they want to see done with Scotland. It really is a ridiculous and unacceptable, one sided situation.

It was quite offensive to hear them praise Foulkes 70th birthday party for about 5 minutes.

It is Jurassic Park.

The one thing of importance that I did hear was about the government's intention to change the voting system in Scotland at some time in the future, it seems this is not in the Lords' remit (for now at least).

Thankfully this will all be superseded after Scotland has voted for its independence.
 
 
# Legerwood 2012-01-27 21:35
There was some discussion about changing the voting system in Scotland just a few months ago in the Herald. What came accross most clearly was that the chatteratti did not like the result of the Scottish Election and so they unilaterally decided the voting system had to be changed! A rather perverted view of democracy and of their own importance in the grand scheme of things. Much like the M'Lords in Westminster.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-01-27 23:19
As you say, if they don't like the result they want to change the system. What other country would tolerate such manipulation?
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-01-27 23:38
We also have Lord Forsyth - apparently in all sobriety - saying "My researches tell me that there are only nine countries in the world that give the franchise to 16- and 17-year-olds, two of which are North Korea and Cuba – both of which also have leaders with a high opinion of themselves.”

This from a man with such a high opinion of himself he continues to impose himself on the 'democratic' process long after the voters stopped electing him.
 
 
# the wallace 2012-01-27 19:19
O/T But just a wee word to all our fellow patriots fighting the good fight over in the daily record,keep up the good work guys,Wonder when we will get a positive case for the union,from any of the union loving trolls on that site?
 
 
# sneckedagain 2012-01-27 20:19
I do not support an extra question on the ballot paper and I very much doubt if there shall be one. However if there is it should be laid out like this

Q. Do you agree that the Scottish parliament should have more powers YES/NO

If your answer to the above question is YES.....

Do you think Scotland should become an independent country?

or

Do you think the Scottish Government should petition the UK Government to give the Scottish Parliament more powers?

That would establish exactly that devo max leaves Scotland in the position of a powerless supplicant
 
 
# Barbazenzero 2012-01-27 21:03
I think an FFA question should be on the ballot if at all possible, likely resulting in a Slovak-like divorce if posed, or hugely improving the chance of yes to independence if removed at the last minute by fiat of Westminster.

Why not:

Q1. Should the Scottish Parliament have the same autonomy as the Isle of Man's?

Q2. Should Scotland become an independent country?
 
 
# uilleam_beag 2012-01-28 09:26
I think that was Prof Matt Qvortrup's suggestion for a two-question referendum: 1/ do you want change? 2/ if so, what type of change? (briefly paraphrased)

My preference is: independence, Y/N? If independence is not passed, do you want devo max (home rule, FFA, call it what you will) or status quo?

It is imperative that the two change options are presented as being mutually exclusive, to neuter the quibbles about clarity we have been hearing lately - protests about 51pc for independence trumping 90pc for devo max, for example. But both these options still have quirks that need to be ironed out.

In Qvortrop's suggestion, we have to ask whether the "no change" voters are given a say in what kind of change we have. If they are denied that (as you appear to be saying, Sneckedagain), then it opens up the extreme case possibility of the result being decided by just over a quarter of the voters (50.1pc for change, then the same split for indy/devo max). It would also be unfair to prevent those who don't want change from the opportunity to hedge their bets - whether to vote against independence (more likely) or for it, if they feel a halfway house would prove unworkable. Similarly, there is no opportunity for independence supporters with those latter concerns to vote against devo max - in order to ask for independence they are forced to accept change of some kind first, even if they see devo max as a Trojan horse, as some nats do. We can argue against any of these positions, but they are all valid stances to have and the referendum needs to allow all opinions to be clearly expressed.

The second set of questions lows us to get a clear and unequivocal answer on the question of independence. The wording clearly states that the first question trumps the latter, even if a larger proportion of voters opt for devo max; if you don't want secession (the unionists' favourite word, I think) then vote no, but you can't go running to mammie if you get outvoted. The suggestion that a yes vote for independence could be gazumped by a bigger yes for devo max would skew the referendum unfairly: under those rules voting yes in the second question would effectively cancel out your own vote for independence, forcing the SNP to run a farcical yes-no campaign. In the format I'd rather see, nats do get the chance to hedge their bets, but surely so does everybody else.

The only weakness is that you cannot vote against change, then register your preference if change is to be foisted on you by the larger electorate (as is possible in the first configuration), but this is a moot point as neither form of change could come about without them being outvoted anyway - their expression of their second preference could only bolster a decision that had already gained a majority.

Single transferrable voting on a single, three-option question has been suggested before, but it strikes me as a bad idea. It would only open up the result to accusations of confused voters, independence through the back door and being stuck with everyone's second choice.
 
 
# Legerwood 2012-01-27 21:56
It looks like the Coalition Government is making moves to bring the BofE to curtail the independence of the Bank of England and make it subject to Government under certain circumstances.

telegraph.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# Triangular Ears 2012-01-28 01:07
Does anyone actually believe that the BoE was really independent? They just come to the decisions they've been told to come to by the government of the day.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-01-28 19:55
Like the, 'Government sends a letter to the BoE telling them to copy it back to them with the Governor's signature on it', kind of letter?
 
 
# jinglyjangly 2012-01-27 22:58
Re the Beeb, maybe time to set up a non payment of licence fee campaign similiar to the anti poll tax of can pay wont pay.
However contributing the money to the SNP instead is a non starter, maybe some charity that provides wind up radios to
african villages or something similiar???
Also re the symbolism stuff, remember a couple of years ago they changed the weather map to show Scotland as a small country next to a big neighbour. this despite the fact that if you fly in a plane from Unst to Landsend and you refuel in the middle you refuel in the
Scottish Borders!!!
 
 
# gadgie 2012-01-27 22:59
Hi everybody, I have been a long time looker first time poster.
Over the last few years i have spent time dicussing independence with work mates and friends. Over this time I have always had the too wee argument etc from them both. That was until this week when suddenly a couple of them asked me to explain this "independence stuff." Ater about 30 mins of explaining two very sceptical guys seem convinced, infact one even phoned his 80 year old mum to say Gaelic will be safe(who said otherwise I dont know). I feel this is a way to approach people, a couple at a time, to give them the real truths behind independence. I hope and pray that everyone in Scotland see's such sense.
 
 
# Alba4Eva 2012-01-27 23:17
Welcome Gadgie. You are right cos education takes time. I think as folk start to think about the issues, they begin to see the truths from the lies. The Scottish electorate are just beginning a 2 year diploma in Scottish politics and the pass mark is 51%

Keep posting, new perspectives help keep a freshness to the usual fare from the likes of myself. *;0)
 
 
# uilleam_beag 2012-01-28 10:06
Welcome, Gadgie, and well done on getting the message out. It really is encouraging to see so many newcomers swelling the ranks on here. The debate is really starting to gather momentum; lifelong "don't knows" are being drawn into discussion about something to which they have never really given much thought, and you can hear the pennies starting to drop. Let's hope they make their decisions based on reason and fact, not scaremongering and baseless assumptions - from either side.
 
 
# mato21 2012-01-27 23:12
Welcome gadgie keep up the good work How many others will your two tell One step at a time gets you to the end of the road
 
 
# Ken500 2012-01-28 09:41
Thatcher
 
 
# Jim Johnston 2012-01-28 09:43
This article and the many excelent comments has turned into a classic piece.
I hope it will somehow survive for future reference over the next 18 months and beyond. It has been that good.

I don't want to single out any single contribution, however Dougie Douglas led the way by posting Brian Harrison, plymouth, sending a fine ball into the heart of Westminsters danger area, but all comments are well argued and thought provoking in the extreme. Auld Bob certainly made me realise something I've given no thought to. I.E. Just who will Scotland have to negotiate with post Independence ? There will be no one left to negotiate with other than QE11 on the other side of the table, and like Queen Anne, she will find herself walking both sides of the street.

WELL DONE NNS AND THANKS TO ALL WHO CONTRIBUTED.
 
 
# cokynutjoe 2012-01-28 14:45
A couple of short letters in today's Herald.


Michael Settle's report on the Scotland Bill debate in the Lords relates that Lord Forsyth used the word "rigged" at least five or six times when speaking about various aspects of the proposals, (Peers accuse Salmond of trying to rig the referendum).
The good lord should take care: if any aspect of our government merits the description "rigged" it is the mechanism whereby those rejected at the ballot box are subsequently enobled so that they can continue to pursue ideas & policies which have been given short shrift by the voters.
Let's hope that in some future legislation there is a change in the way people are appointed or elected to the revising second chamber so that some note is taken of the views of those who pay the bills & expenses.

Mr John Maxwell, Bearsden.



The report of a recent debate in the House of Lords calls to mind a quotation of Thomas Carlyle:
"it is noteworthy that the nobles of Scotland have maintained a quite despicable behaviour since the days of William Wallace downwards - a selfish, ferocious, famishing, unprincipled set of hyenas from whom at no time and in no way has the country derived any benefit whatsoever"!

Mr Ian Ross, Bridge of Weir.
 
 
# snowthistle 2012-01-28 15:12
brilliant! For the first time ever I did watch the debate in the House of Lords. Shocking, quite shocking, I'm convinced if more of the people of Scotland saw just a few short clips of these debates, independence would be assured.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-01-28 19:43
I'm beginnibg to think it is time to start dragging some TV footage of the screen and sticking it on youtube. How do we stand for copyright infringment?
 
 
# Ard Righ 2012-01-28 20:34
Auld Bob,

If you do do it, then someone else will download it, when it gets hauled off, those in the know upload their copy, and thus the cycle of truth continues.

I would just ignore these dinosaurs of a bygone era.

Energies are better spent exercising our sovereignty as free men!
 
 
# Ard Righ 2012-01-28 20:29
Firstly,

Lyman Frank Baum, the author The wizard of Oz, created this is as a potent metaphor, it is important to note that before Warner Bros wrecked the heavy allegorical content of this masterpiece, the 1939 film most of us will have seen; Alice was meant to wear silver shoes and Oz means ounce - as in Gold Ounce - it goes much, much further. This following link is nearly two hours in length: it's great to hear the near American President; Williams Jennings Bryan and his take on the great contraction or depression of the 1930's, this is one of the better researches by an intelligent American, Bill Still: www.youtube.com/.../


This is the most accurate article I've read about the UK's beginning, impeccably researched by Peter Berresford Ellis, whose books are refreshingly pro Celtic rather than the thick substrate of colonial Anglo propaganda in academia that is forced down our native throat:

irishdemocrat.co.uk/.../...
 

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