By Gerry Hassan, The Scotsman, February 4th 2012

Human beings have a need to associate, to feel they belong and to be part of wider groupings.

We all recognise this, but we also know some of the limits: the power and negativity of being in a gang, tribe or group, of including and excluding.

In my life many things have defined how I see myself and how I interpret the world: various values, philosophies, labels and outlooks, from politics to culture to of course, football.

I used to define myself as a left-winger and as part of the universalist left project which sought to bring emancipation across the globe. I was also a member of the British left and Scottish left.

Gradually one by one these definitions began to mean less to me; the British left waned, while the Scottish left, like everywhere retreated and diluted. One day, a couple of years ago in a public conversation with 1960s radical Tariq Ali, I realised that I thought it pointless to continue defining myself as a left-winger.

I recognised that the challenges the planet faces ecologically and in the limits to growth, along with the absence of a vibrant left in most Western democracies, has reduced the term mostly to an act of faith. It felt a liberation, but also a transgression.

Then came thinking of myself as a Scottish nationalist. Part of politically growing up in 1980s Scotland was the experience of Thatcherism, and that along with the poll tax and reading Tom Nairn made me a nationalist. But I now find myself more and more feeling that nationalism isn’t the force which will reshape our future, and while I see myself as sympathetic to many of its goals, sitting outside it. Emotionally I am happy to note the power of nationalism, but intellectually I think we need something else.

And crucial to my self-identity is football and the team I support, Dundee United. I now realise that while I still support United, and it hurts in a small way when they lose, I don’t do so in a tribal way. Instead, I feel for nearly all of Scotland’s clubs and their supporters, outwith the distortions of ‘the Old Firm’.

What I have come to realise is that the names and labels I have used to define myself are no longer how I choose to think of myself. And from this I reflect on the state of debate in Scotland.

The current constitutional debate is framed by the forces of unionism versus nationalism, and so misses most of Scotland out; it amplifies the power and exclusion of name-calling and labels.

The SNP strategy seems to be to present independence as risk-free as is possible by removing radicalism and uncertainty and emphasising continuity whether it be the Crown or currency. In so doing this does not answer the crucial question: what difference will it make to Scotland as a society?

Similarly the unionist campaign has shown itself fraught, brittle and seemingly unable or unwilling to make the positive case for the union and how our society has been nourished in the past, and could be in the future by the union. Without this the union case seems to be the bastion of the last true romantic nationalists, defending a fantasyland UK which doesn’t exist in reality.

Now before I get brickbats from either camp, what the best of each side uses their argument for is as a proxy to believe it is a means to a better Scotland. But at the same time both are silent about that better Scotland.

That’s the real Scotland we need to bring to the fore from the implicit to the explicit, and get past the fixation with process and taking about abstracts, combined with the self-interest of parts of institutional Scotland to keep things as they are.

The real debate would address some fundamentals. It would challenge the economic growth fetish mainstream politics is addicted to. It would talk about the difficult choices we need to make as a society about the environment, public services, demographics and more, and the balance between short-term populism and long-term gain. And it would bring to the fore the power of markets and global capital, and the collusion of most politicians with market fundamentalism. How can we create a society which isn’t defined by professional institutional capture in public services, but also doesn’t hand them over to corporate capture?

Then there is the debate about the distributional consequences of the public decisions we make. More profoundly we have to question the innate assumption across most of society that we are on the right track to a better, fairer Scotland.

Are we really? If so how can we be sure, and shouldn’t we begin to exhibit a small bit of self-criticism rather than self-congratulation?

Such a debate would address who has authority, power and speaks in our name, and how a future Scotland, independent or not, might begin to shake this up and change things. And it would not put all its faith in politics or politicians, but have a wider idea of change.

This debate has to be about a different Scotland, about fleshing out what a better Scotland would look like, what its values are, and how we get there.

This needs many of us to raise our voices and transcend thinking of Scotland as defined by labels, as ‘them’ and ‘us’, friends and enemies.

We should welcome the recent ‘civic Scotland’ decision not to back ‘devo max’ and more process discussions, and attempt to open up a debate about Scotland’s future.

They cannot do it on their own, as they don’t have the resources or mandate. A deeper point would be whether institutional public Scotland has the capacity and confidence to quietly question its own role and self-interest in the maintenance of the settled society which has defined Scotland for as long as most of us can remember.

Why does Scotland remain this rather complacent, undynamic society which does not seem interested in asking itself difficult questions? Part of the answer is that the professional bodies and gatekeepers of the public realm have all done rather well out of the status quo, of talking social democracy, while looking after themselves.

Scotland hasn’t shown any signs of wanting to shake itself out of this illusion, under the good times of devolution’s first decade, under Labour or SNP. This though is the difficult debate we need to begin to make real change in our nation and the constitutional debate relevant. The question is who will dare to raise their heads, challenge the way things are, and speak for a better Scotland?

 

Courtesy of Gerry Hassan - http://gerryhassan.com

Comments  

 
# UpSpake 2012-02-06 10:18
What was never possible Gerry, whilst you clung to Labour and all that they stood for was the flourishing of hope and aspiration. All that was curtailed by the nanny state that grew up under 13 years of Labour, amplified many times over by the hegemony running riot in the west of Scotland.
No nation could have produced the wealth of talent that Scotland has down the ages within the straightjacket of Labour and all its control freakery.
Nationalism may not be the way forward for Scotland but Gerry, its the only game in town, wake up and smell the coffee !.
Sure, there might be many criticisms levied at the SNP for their sort of WRI approach to how an independent Scotland might aspire to grow after independence but when there are steady hands on the tiller like Swinneys then I fear less than I do if we were back in Labour hands.
I would suggest you take stock of where Scotland has come since last May and acknowledge that we have moved a long way from where Labour left us. The nonsense of coalition down south is for them to worry about for after independence, there probably won't be a Labour party to speak of down south and certainly not one ever likely to be back in power again, for a very long time. Here in Scotland under powerhouse Lamont you are sliding into the abyss.
Be a nationalist, be a patriot, be whatever you like but be for Scotland and for the future of its people and stop fretting over the past.
 
 
# dogbite 2012-02-06 23:15
I dont think Gerry was ever a nationalist just that he thought about it but retreated. He is still a Labour man through and through
 
 
# Harrbrian 2012-02-06 10:22
Thank you for another thoughtful article.

A vision of a post Independence world is badly needed. The argument against the Union is clear but on its own is not enough.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-06 12:36
Quoting Harrbrian:
Thank you for another thoughtful article.

A vision of a post Independence world is badly needed. The argument against the Union is clear but on its own is not enough.




The big flaw in both Gerry's and your premiss is that the SNP have NOT, "Fleshed out", their ideas for a better Scotland. Facts are that they have. The fault is that they have NOT managed to have those, "Fleshed Out", ideas properly published by the hostile BBC and MSM. The Fleshing Out has indeed been done.
 
 
# Union City Blues 2012-02-07 19:43
We know the SNP are effectively censored by the media. Their sensible arguements will not be reported. I left a comment on the Herald site this morning to do with the triple rating debate. I said, Johann Lamont is showing her lack of experience due to only having worked as a teacher or a politician. so therefore not understanding how finance in the real world works. It was removed by a moderator. They left my comment about Rump UK also having to wait and see what their rating would be. Must be Lamonts mammy working at the Herald.
 
 
# farrochie 2012-02-06 13:03
Harriban, have you got your copy of the booklet "Your Scotland Your Future". This does some of the fleshing out that you request, though maybe not all the detail.

But it does cover Economy, Health, Education, Justice, Transport, Welfare and Pensions, Housing, Finance, Business, Energy, Broadcasting, International affairs incl EU, and Defence.
 
 
# snowthistle 2012-02-06 13:13
it's available online at
www.scotlandforward.net
 
 
# Union City Blues 2012-02-07 19:39
Too many sound bites, not enough meat.

Gerry's article rings a few bells with me. I have recently moved from a maybe independent to independence now kind of person. Most of us here want independence but what that looks like in reality probably differs for us all. I like much of what the SDA suggests. I like Gary's comment about challenging the economic growth fetish. I know nothing about this guy so have no preconceived ideas about his politics. I read a positive article suggesting we think differently.

Eventually The Unionists in Scotland will see the writing on the wall and start to break ranks if only to preserve their own cushy numbers then we will get a decent debate about what Scotland will look like in the future.
 
 
# deepwater 2012-02-06 15:48
Harrbrian:

You will discover the nation, by its individuals within it, has asked itself these questions many times, and answered them as well.

It is not to the benefit of Westminster and it's revolving doors to Fleet Street and "The City" to permit this knowledge to be widely available.

"Our" media therefore simpy ignores it for the most part. Scots are amongst the most propagandized and indoctrinated peoples on the planet. Myself, I did not realise it until absent for several months and comparing on-line BBC to "local media" - it was shocking.

If the scare tactics were debunked before issuance, what point?

For the scare tactics to work, the truth must be masked or hidden.

The truth is there, and its easy to find.

You simply ned to realise that no one will try to scare you without an ulterior motive, it's just not worth the bother.

Find the motive by uncovering the truth then decide if you want to be impacted by the scare - the answer is "usually not".
 
 
# RaboRuglen 2012-02-06 10:24
Hi Gerry,

Oh give it up. Your "left" and your version of "Labour" have failed utterly. Why can't you just admit you were wrong and move on?

We have an opportunity to break away from all that has been holding us back - including the antics of "civic Scotland" (just wait for the Local elections in May to see the start of that process) and make a new start.

Comment edited by NNS Mod Team
 
 
# johnp 2012-02-06 10:29
"This debate has to be about a different Scotland, about fleshing out what a better Scotland would look like, what its values are, and how we get there."

Absolutely what I have been thinking. The referendum and (hopefully) a yes answer will allow us to make wholesale changes to make Scotland a better place. We should start debating the possibilities and options now so, by the time of the referendum, change isn't something that will frighten the Scottish public but an exciting new adventure we can all look forward to going on.

I've set up a Google blog called Brave New Scotland (still to post though) to put forward ideas but if Newsnetscotland want to open up a bit of their website for everyone to contribute I'm sure we'll get lots of useful ideas we can inject into the referendum debate.
 
 
# Louperdowg 2012-02-06 10:33
Lots of handwringing going on here.

The answer, Gerry, is effing simple; get rid of the cancer that is Westminster and the world will open up to us.

If a country of five million people with the resources that Scotland has at its disposal can't make a fist of it then truly we deserve all we get.
 
 
# tartanfever 2012-02-06 10:37
Why does Scotland remain this rather complacent, undynamic society which does not seem interested in asking itself difficult questions?

Er... because we haven't had to really ask ourselves any questions before as a country, it's always been taken care of by Westminster.
If you aren't given a democratic framework with which to work, asking questions can be quite a difficult thing. In Scotland we tend to shout, because shouting has been the only way to be heard.

Thats how the British empire worked. Conquer them and keep them divided, for whilst they are arguing amongst themselves they won't unite against you.

There's a lot of things that have to change - it would seem to me that the fundamental point here is one of action and consequence - which we don't have in Scotland. Let us be independent, have our own government, make our own decisions and then we will start 'growing up'.

Simple.

You seem to be under the spell that Independence will be some great awe-inspiring Hollywood style moment. It won't - it will be messy, untidy, rude, dirty. Thats the starting point, after that it should get better. Think of Scotland as a spotty teenager trying to get out from under mum's apron, full of hormones and making wrong decisions. Hopefully we'll get through this stage and allow ourselves to mature and find wisdom.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-06 10:39
"Why does Scotland remain this rather complacent, undynamic society which does not seem interested in asking itself difficult questions?"

Because the Labour party's had its hooks into it for too long. Because one of the difficult questions it might have asked itself was "What has the Labour party become and why does it no longer represent us?"
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-06 11:08
A thoughtful article Gerry but the answers are out there. Scotland hasn't had to think for itself in a long time. The Scots have had all their thinking done for them and all their decisions made without their input. It really does go back to the abused partner analogy at the end of the day. Suddenly though, as has been known to happen, this partner begins to realise there is a better life to be had out there, one where they aren't belittled, degraded or abused. Its going to take us a long time to gain all of our confidence back. Its an experience lost to us but newly recovered, this ability to challenge the accepted order and have things the way we want them, but the more we exercise this new confidence, the stronger it will become.

Events are tending to overrun the contemplative stage you would wish for Gerry. But we've had 300+ years to contemplate what we want for our country. As TF states above, initially this new Scotland is going to be messy, full of pitfalls and indeed pratfalls, but mostly its going to be about hope and aspiration this new Scotland. All you ever ask for in life is a chance, doesn't have to be a great chance, just a chance to prove and improve yourself. I feel this will be our chance and I hope others feel the same.
 
 
# Robabody 2012-02-06 17:20
"But we've had 300+ years to contemplate what we want for our country" and during that time a lot of our people were turfed out or got up and went.
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-06 21:40
Aye, many would say we've spent too much time in contemplation.
 
 
# Christian_Wright 2012-02-06 11:37
"The real debate would address some fundamentals. It would challenge the economic growth fetish mainstream politics is addicted to. "

You know, I notice it tends to be people who've got a few bob to spare that say that. For most in Scotland economic growth is necessary for a better life. Few are at the stage where a bit more money wont make any difference.

A bit more money means freedom of choice to many. I doubt these people would consider an emphasis on economic growth as a fetish. YOU may have enough to see it that way, Gerry, but many more do not.

Individuals form collectives in their self-interest. That starts with the basics - physical security, shelter, food in their belly, procreation, then onto economic betterment, education, securing the future, and self actualization.

Many Scots are still struggling with the the very basics of keeping a roof over their head and keeping warm, fed and healthy.

perhaps we should make a determined effort to deal with those deficits in our society first, before we start navel-gazing. That is a luxury reserved for the affluent.

Keep it focused, keep it simple - don't make the same mistakes. Let's keep our feet on the ground and our heads out of that orifice wherein the sun don't shine. We don't need re-labelled LABOUR LUVVIES screwing it up again.

Been there; done that; got the tee-shirt.
 
 
# exel 2012-02-06 11:58
"Why does Scotland remain this rather complacent, undynamic society which does not seem interested in asking itself difficult questions?"

Many posters so far have taken (out of context as usual) the above sentence, but the true value of what you write is lost in doing so.

The full text if anyone is interested, says much more: “Why does Scotland remain this rather complacent, undynamic society which does not seem interested in asking itself difficult questions? Part of the answer is that the professional bodies and gatekeepers of the public realm have all done rather well out of the status quo, of talking social democracy, while looking after themselves.
Scotland hasn’t shown any signs of wanting to shake itself out of this illusion, under the good times of devolution’s first decade, under Labour or SNP. This though is the difficult debate we need to begin to make real change in our nation and the constitutional debate relevant. The question is who will dare to raise their heads, challenge the way things are, and speak for a better Scotland?

In my opinion the most relevant phrase in your conclusion is: “This though is the difficult debate we need to begin to make real change in our nation and the constitutional debate relevant. The question is who will dare to raise their heads, challenge the way things are, and speak for a better Scotland?”

As my fans here will quickly tell you, I have been banging on about a “Constitutional Debate” for two years now. And a recent “Open Letter” from Kenyon Wright advocated the same, in his final paragraph:

“The Constitutional Commission of which I am president, which is politically non-aligned, has published a draft constitution for Scotland, and is initiating a nation-wide discussion not just of the referendum, but on the very different kind of democracy, already partly embodied in the present Scottish Parliament, we aspire to be. We hope to ensure that the options in the referendum are clearly understood as involving something more than simply a shift of political power. The people will, I believe, understand the full implications for Scotland's democracy of each of the options, be they two or three.”

Such a debate is not the interest of the political parties, nationalist and unionists alike. Their priority is rubbishing any utterance which does not suit their goal.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-06 12:20
Quoting exel:
Many posters so far have taken (out of context as usual) the above sentence


You neglected to explain how that sentence is changed by the 'context' you prefer to focus on.

Quoting exel:
Their priority is rubbishing any utterance which does not suit their goal.


He says, rubbishing any previous comments on this article which do not suit his goal.
 
 
# exel 2012-02-06 13:05
Jiggsbro 2012-02-06 11:20
Quoting exel:
"Their priority is rubbishing any utterance which does not suit their goal.
“He says, rubbishing any previous comments on this article which do not suit his goal.”

You make my first point Beautifully Jigg, thank you.

I posted: “Such a debate is not the interest of the political parties, nationalist and unionists alike. Their priority is rubbishing any utterance which does not suit their goal.”
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-07 00:02
I know what you posted. I read your post. I quoted part of it. I'm at a loss to understand how you imagine the 'context' of the previous sentence changes the meaning of the quoted part, or makes you any less hypocritical.
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-06 12:32
You actually do have one or two admirers exel. I have a deal of sympathy and respect for both your position and determination myself.
 
 
# snowthistle 2012-02-06 13:16
while the Constitutional Commission is "politically non-aligned" it is still political
 
 
# tartanfever 2012-02-06 23:59
Disagree with you to a point exel. I don't think so many have been taking it out of context.

Whilst I admire your stance of the constitutional debate, and fully agree that it is an important issue that could pave the way for a better, fairer, inclusive society - for me the fundamental hurdle is independence.

For this is the only way that such a conversation could actually become a reality, written in law/constitution, in an independent Scotland.

We will never have the society we seek through the powers of westminster, only through governing ourselves will we have the opportunity to start afresh. I don't care if the independence battle is as messy and unforgiving as hell if it paves the way for something better, or at least the possibility of that.
 
 
# farrochie 2012-02-06 12:05
Labour's thinking on where to position themselves is being worked out. The centre ground (Middle England?) is the target; working class votes can't deliver a majority; the traditional loyalities in Scotland are acknowledged to have been lost.

The New Centre Ground
www.progressonline.org.uk/.../
 
 
# GrassyKnollington 2012-02-06 12:09
Gerry I worry that you are somewhat fixated with "abstracts". You want a new narrative for Scotland and to distance yourself from what you see as the two tribes.

You seem to want fairly radical change but don't feel like you're really part of the only team that can deliver it because that would involve being labelled a nationalist.

You want to be part of a new group who are neither unionist or nationalist but will speak up for a "better Scotland".

I expect they will be strong on narratives and harsh on old style tribalism and I look forward to hearing what they have to say post referendum but can we just get there first.

Independence vs Unionism isn't a distraction from how we build a better Scotland, it's the very essence of it.

You're putting the cart before the horse with your efforts to always steer the conversation to a "post nationalist Scotland".

I worry that you're saying "hold on , we haven't talked enough about this new Scotland we want to build yet" when the rest of us want to vote YES in the referendum and build it from there.
 
 
# Robabody 2012-02-06 17:24
Hear , Hear GK. Let's get independence first Gerry and then you can have as many of the new narritives (and tribes) as you please
 
 
# brusque 2012-02-06 12:26
Seriously Gerry? How long have you been rearranging the words of this article, and still only managing "someone (else) has to do something"

I've no problem with Gerry's meandering articles, often they are fairly insightful; but I'm starting to get a feeling of him wanting to have a talking shop that continues until such time as the Labour Party in Scotland can get their act together!

Labour in it's current form do not get it Gerry, they will never get it. Their sense of entitlement is a deep vein running through them. They don't have the energy/passion/will; whatever you want to call it, to look outside themselves and see what the rest of us see. And for commentators to suggest that Labour would be capable of answering "The question is who will dare to raise their heads, challenge the way things are, and speak for a better Scotland?” is risible.
 
 
# pa_broon74 2012-02-06 12:44
The article is confusing or maybe its just me.

If we set out a confident successful, economically positive outlook for independence we are accussed of being foolishly optimistic. If we go down the too poor etc road then we're just Scottish Labour/Unionist generally.

So somewhere in between seems to be the way forward, quietly optimistic but not to the point of complacency.

Independence is a political idea is it not, or at least its the politicians who'll do the delivering/negotiating when the time comes. Its their job to listen to civic society and deliver based on that?

As for the rest of it, I see the words are all part of the English vocabulary but many of them don't seem to be in an order I can make any sense out of.

It is Monday morning so I'm willing to concede it might be me.
 
 
# GrassyKnollington 2012-02-06 13:13
Quote:
It is Monday morning so I'm willing to concede it might be me.


lol or you could just be a cybernat tribalist who doesn't know his implicit narrative from his abstract proxy.
 
 
# pa_broon74 2012-02-06 16:45
Quoting GrassyKnollingt on:
Quote:
It is Monday morning so I'm willing to concede it might be me.


lol or you could just be a cybernat tribalist who doesn't know his implicit narrative from his abstract proxy.


I would love to know what that actually meant...

But its still Monday and I haven't quite gotten in to gear yet.

;-)
 
 
# GrassyKnollington 2012-02-06 16:48
lol I think I got into gear too fast I've been put on to the comment naughty step of shame.
 
 
# Auld Bob 2012-02-06 13:06
Oh! For the love of Pete!

The SNP have been telling what they stand for, what they want to do and how they intend to do it for decades. If you only want to hear or see the propaganda then stick with the BBG, STV, ITV and MSM dead tree newsprint. Listen to the BBC and independent radio and much of the internet. There you will find all that negative stuff, in spades. Yet there cannot be a single reader of these subjects on newsnetscotland .com unaware that there has been, since way back in the 1940s, a blanket of suppression over all things Scottish Independence. The SNP have been formulating the way they want a future Scotland to be like. Go to their on-line stuff, read the leaflets they have published. They have formulated the way for Scotland as they see it. It is there if you go and find it among the dependency advocates mountain of BBC, STV, ITV, MSM dead tree press, BBC and independent radio. et al.

If you believe they have not then you have just not been looking or paying attention.
 
 
# pinkrose 2012-02-06 13:38
In answer to the question 'Who will speak out for a better Scotland', in my view the debate is already happening here and now, on the Newsnet pages, on Facebook, on Twitter, on Bella Caledonia, on Labourhame, on many other blogs and on the comments of newspaper articles found online. It is also happening in people's houses, at work, and among friends and family. So while you are wondering and writing about this so-called problem, the rest of us are getting on with the discussion and the dreaming. It is already happening, so please don't worry. These things happen at a natural pace and the interest is increasing daily.
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-06 14:19
Very nicely put pinkrose. We've been having the discussion for a very long time. Indeed more than enough time to form a great many visions on a future democracy. If there are those of a federal mindset who wish to put form to this new thinking about politics then they better get a shift on. The rest of us are moving beyond discussion and on to getting our vision in gear.
 
 
# Teri 2012-02-06 15:16
Exactly, pinkrose.Gerry seems to think if it's not in the public domain then it isnt happening. There's plenty of debate going on, at all levels, across the country. As we get nearer the Independence Referendum, it will be come very evident that debates are taking place already.
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-06 15:25
And those discussions will be between people Teri. Not held between heid bummers in lofty chambers or committee rooms, but as pinkrose states -

Newsnet pages, on Facebook, on Twitter, on Bella Caledonia, on Labourhame, on many other blogs and on the comments of newspaper articles found online. It is also happening in people's houses, at work, and among friends and family.

All we want from the politicos involved are the two sides of the coin on any given subject and they can let us get on with the discussion.
 
 
# george davie 2012-02-08 00:37
What a breath of fresh air pinkrose!
 
 
# edinburgh quine 2012-02-06 13:41
My belief is that after Independence, the elected government will carry on until a programme of elections, etc are determined by parliament. That will give ALL the parties time to set out their agenda for the future. THEN the Scottish people will decide the Scotland they want. Oh, and Mr Hassan; "Unionism versus Nationalism"? I dont see that at all, its, as someone put it so clearly recently in these very pages, dependence versus Independence. An independent Scotland is the first step. Left-wing, right-wing, I dont care (mind you, not so keen on right wing but being a democrat, he ho)
 
 
# Angus 2012-02-06 13:52
Quite a fine and thought provoking article from Gerry.
Would I be wrong if I said he may be an idealist?
We can only do one thing at a time.
Social equality and climate change action will never happen in the current UK, whose politics are based on class system, snobs and inverted snobs maybe another way to see the LabServatives. The only socialist country I ve seen is Norway, but then they can afford to be socialist in the true sense. We need to get Independence to get away from the LabServative nonsense, then we can tackle our own social and renewables problems, then we can show the remaining Uk the way forward.
 
 
# rhymer 2012-02-06 14:29
sorry Gerry, But labour isn't part of the equation anymore.
Independence will have some snags but these can be overcome and there are plenty of good examples of government out there that Scotland can emulate.
Using our own resources to pursue our own specific needs and ambitions is the ONLY way to progress.
 
 
# Matrix 2012-02-06 14:36
Comments are not the place for long essays. Those wishing to submit articles should use the proper procedures. - NNS Mod Team
 
 
# Mad Jock McMad 2012-02-06 14:59
Gerry still looks on Newsnet Scotland through the cybernat tainted spectacles and thus the wide ranging , in depth and usually hugely informing threads common to Newsnet are of no accord to him.

Newsnet Scotland was looking at the defence issue well before the Unionist side started their round of too small, too stupid, too poor line on a Scottish Defence Force - to well researched articles demonstrated that Scotland was not only able to afford the proposed defence force but could do so with some ease.

The discussion on the economic basis for an independent Scotland has again been carefully argued through on this site from a pragmatic, objective evidence basis by many different authors both lay and expert, a basis foreign to the emotive and plaintive cries of the other side.

As far a pure political discussion goes on this site, there is a wide range of opinion from old fashioned Clydeside socialist to blue to the bone Scottish Tory.

Yet there is a tacit agreement that social democracy politically best fits the Scottish people and the time for renewed party politics will be in the run up to the first elections to an independent Scottish Parliament. Until then party politics will simply muddy the waters of the drive for independence.

The bodies claiming to make up 'Civic Scotland' are, in the main, the very establishment bodies that have done well out of the status quo - they may look like strange bed fellows the STUC, Church of Scotland, SCVO and other church, volunteer and council bodies but all fear the loss of their perceived 'power' or 'influence' in an independent Scotland.

The question arises and one Gerry should look to address is:

Just how do you create open debate on the future direction of Scotland given the opposition of a narrow, small minded, Westminster directed, media in Scotland alongside the erstwhile 'chattering classes' of Civic Scotland's unbounding self interest?

The answer, for me, is you can not have open, lively debate when one side's narrative is simply to belittle and mock the asperations of the other and whose stock answer comes down to: 'Its aye been!'

Maybe Gerry the very debate you seek is happening under your nose amongst the 60,000 unique ID's that log on monthly to 'cybernat central' at Newsnet - it may not be sophisticated or elegant debate but it is a dashed sight more lively and considered than occurs elsewhere.
 
 
# GrassyKnollington 2012-02-06 15:43
I think you make some very good points there Mad Jock.

To be honest the more I read that headline the more it annoys me.

Comment edited by NNS Mod Team
 
 
# Robabody 2012-02-06 17:33
Cripes GK fame at last .... you've been moderated by the NNS team, can I have your autograph please?

PS could you write it on a cheque for the "Save the Robaboy's fund"?
 
 
# GrassyKnollington 2012-02-06 18:38
ha ha I wish I was a comment naughty step virgin but I've been here before.

Gerry reads Newsnet Scotland comments occassionally "usually scanning them in horror" so the mods are evidently not nearly harsh enough.
 
 
# Marga B 2012-02-06 17:28
It's not our own state we need to look at, it's the state of England under Cameron. If ever there was a brand new, un-tainted (Gerry?) reason for voting nationalist, it's what's happening to England.

Scotland hasn't moved, it's England that's creating a separate state, one which many Scots look at with perplexity. Far from giving Scotland more powers, they are trying to suck Scotland into this new creation. The inherent weakness of devolutionism/ regionalism is finally on display.

The "middle Scotland" people saying they want to keep things as they are are deluded - things will never be the same again. The Great Britain of our grand/parents has gone. We have to change too or get sucked under.

The only thing that worries me is the ferocity of the market out there. Maybe being untied from the cesspit of the City of London will unleash some horrible pressures on Scotland. But then, if Iceland is surviving, why shouldn't Scotland?
 
 
# Tinyzeitgeist 2012-02-06 17:36
I think that there is a certain difficulty in articulating how a new independent Scotland should be shaped because any discussion on radical alternatives and change from the way things are now would be pounced upon by westminster and their lackeys in the MSM. For example, look how difficult it is becoming to discuss the removal of Trident. Or lets take land ownership. My view is that the land of Scotland should be returned to the people of Scotland. This is but one of many issues that we cannot openly debate because of the media onslaught that would ensue. The SNP and AS would be painted as pol pot etc etc.
Independence must come first then we the people of Scotland can have a free, open debate on all that matters to us. Right now that is not possible because we have to constantly we wary of unionists.
 
 
# UpSpake 2012-02-06 17:48
Tiny. Well, no not really. The ownership of land in Scotland has for a long time been a thorny issue and since who owns our land and how it is put to use is a matter for us all.
The SDA propose an Land Value Rent covering all land in regular ownership. This will automatically have an effect on large estates and all the land currently underutilised.
For a people considering the most significant decision for 300 years, nothing should be off the agenda, nothing !.
 
 
# Robabody 2012-02-06 18:27
Tell me US does LVR cover or include elements of charges associated with the degradation of the land holdings? In otherwords once an estate packs in or sells up will there be some money to hand to help with restoration projects?
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-06 18:30
Gerry you ask for debate and state.....

"Such a debate would address who has authority, power and speaks in our name, and how a future Scotland, independent or not, might begin to shake this up and change things. And it would not put all its faith in politics or politicians, but have a wider idea of change.

This debate has to be about a different Scotland, about fleshing out what a better Scotland would look like, what its values are, and how we get there.

This needs many of us to raise our voices and transcend thinking of Scotland as defined by labels, as ‘them’ and ‘us’, friends and enemies."

I would ask.How can a genuine debate be had on the terms laid down from the type of people who for the best part of the last forty years have been aware and kept a secret from the Scottish people what the truth of the economic situation was/is

I offer in evidence the following....


National Archives T319/2929
Scottish devolution and North Sea oil including economics of Scottish independence
1974 Jan 01 - 1975 Dec 31

"the orders of magnitude are sufficient to show that Scotland would have more cash on independence than under continued union."
Devolution: Economic advantages to Scotland of the Union

tomgriffin.org/.../...


"If there is a moral from all this, it is that progress toward devolution should be delayed for as long as possible consistently with honouring the Government's commitment to move down the devolution road and containing the SNP lobby in Parliament."

Scotland: Implications for External
Financing.

tomgriffin.org/.../...
 
 
# chicmac 2012-02-06 22:56
Those red tinted specs are blurring your vision again Gerry. A 'better Scotland is what the SNP and other pro-normal levels of self government supporters are all about.

If exel is supporting you, well,... 'nuff said.
 
 
# G. P. Walrus 2012-02-06 23:31
It is difficult to hold a public debate when the media has such a narrow and negative focus on Scottish affairs. There is no serious Scottish current affairs programme on radio or TV, there is no airtime for detailed policy discussion. Precious little public scrutiny is made of government policy, in documentaries or newspapers.

I expect that, in the run up to the referendum, every issue in public debate will become a narrow proxy for the independence question. Hopefully once that is over, there will be more space for the kind of vision Gerry is calling for.
 
 
# exel 2012-02-06 23:51
Macart 2012-02-06 14:25
“And those discussions will be between people Teri. Not held between heid bummers in lofty chambers or committee rooms, but as pinkrose states –“

I hate to disagree with you Macart, especially after your remarks earlier. Teri thinks it is enough talk amongst ourselves, not so.

I agree with Gerry the discussion should be in the public domain, that is what consultation is supposed to be about, but the majority of it will never reach our ears/eyes so to speak.

Your remarks about “heid bummers” etc. however is spot on.

I would like to share an email I received recently.

Hello ******* [Personal details removed - NNS Mod Team]
Thank you for your recent submission.
We do not publish open letters unless they are from established public figures or representatives of recognised bodies.
We would suggest that you submit an opinion piece instead and we will publish on merit.
Thank you
NNS
 
 
# exel 2012-02-07 00:37
Macart 2012-02-06 14:25
“And those discussions will be between people Teri. Not held between heid bummers in lofty chambers or committee rooms, but as pinkrose states –“

I hate to disagree with you Macart, especially after your remarks earlier. Teri thinks it is enough to talk amongst ourselves, not so.

I agree with Gerry the discussion should be in the public domain, that is what consultation is supposed to be about, but the majority of it will never reach our ears/eyes so to speak.

Your remarks about “heid bummers” etc. however is spot on.
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-07 17:42
exel - Sorry to have missed this earlier exel. I find it hard to keep track of threads and comments.

It won't be enough for us to discuss it amongst ourselves, I would agree with that 100%. But the most important discussions, I feel (probably just me), will be amongst ourselves. At the end of the day we'll be the ones marching into polling booths and putting pencil to paper. It is important to have these forums to bounce ideas and latest news around. Our problem is sifting fact from soundbite these days and hopefully one on one discussions and open forums with other good folks bringing new sources and contributions help us form some solid image of the debates progress or lack thereof.

Just my wee thought.
 
 
# exel 2012-02-07 18:11
Macart 2012-02-07 16:42
“exel - Sorry to have missed this earlier exel. I find it hard to keep track of threads and comments.”

No need for an apology I assure you.
Like you I am disinclined to perch on these boards, I read other blogs to broaden my outlook.Even watch /listen to the BBC.

I agree totally with the point you make, we only have one vote, we need to be able to trust the source of the information we are given.
 
 
# exel 2012-02-07 21:24
Macart 2012-02-07 16:42
It seems that there are two versions of the post you are referring to. It seems that the Mod team have reconsidered the original version. I did not realise they had done so.

Was it there when you came on line?

All they seem to have objected to is my real name.

Alex Sloan
 
 
# Ard Righ 2012-02-07 11:58
"How can we create a society which isn’t defined by professional institutional capture in public services, but also doesn’t hand them over to corporate capture?"

"Why does Scotland remain this rather complacent, undynamic society which does not seem interested in asking itself difficult questions? Part of the answer is that the professional bodies and gatekeepers of the public realm have all done rather well out of the status quo, of talking social democracy, while looking after themselves."

Excellent points to raise.
 
 
# Talorcan 2012-02-07 22:39
I read Gerry's article then I realised that I had read this stuff time and time again over the past fifty odd years since I first took an interest in politics. I'm frankly bored with it. It's just yak yak yak and empty noises. The time for talking is surely past. It's now time for independence and a resurgent Scotland. Bite the bullet Gerry, Lady Luck loves men of action.
 
 
# Ken500 2012-02-08 11:36
'Civic Scotland' favours Devo Max because they think that's what the majority in Scotland support. 60%.

That's illegal wars based on a lie and Trident ( Foreign/Defence policy).

Strange for the STUC and the Churches.
 
 
# Ken500 2012-02-08 11:47
The SNP are going to publish the facts and figures (available) for likelihood of future Scottish accounts.

That's why the waiting period is necessary. So people in Scotland can be better informed and be fully prepared to make the decision.

Unionists are always trying to force the issue.
 
 
# Woodside 2012-02-08 16:53
I don't understand this feeling that the Scottish people have not been open to debate and to looking at how to make Scotland better. Surely if that had been the case then we would still have a Lab/Lib coalition at Holyrood.

For the SNP to win in a minority in 2007 showed that those who exercise their right to vote had considered many of the issues and decided they liked what the SNP had to say and the positive change in direction they offered Scotland. The overwhelming victory last year showed that the electorate liked the new direction of travel and wanted to go even further.

For all of this to happen has to show that people are engaged in their own way with what is happening, it's just that they do so quietly and privately and don't feel the need to have such discussion in public with strangers or on the internet. The debate is happening and we are all witness to this in our day to day conversations, perhaps it is just that if the debates don't happen in some sort of public forum where journalists can listen and get copy then they don't believe it is happening.

Scotland has woken up and more and more people are engaged in the debates about how they see Scotland in the future, they just don't all shout it from the rooftops.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-08 17:00
Quoting Woodside:
For the SNP to win in a minority in 2007 showed that those who exercise their right to vote had considered many of the issues and decided they liked what the SNP had to say and the positive change in direction they offered Scotland.


Unless you're a member of the Labour party, in which case it showed that the foolish people of Scotland had been taken in by the devious Alex 'Braveheart' Salmond and his visions of utopian independence, so much so that they forgot that only Labour can lead them to the promised land (subject to delays and cancellation).
 
 
# mountaincadre 2012-02-08 17:07
Agreed Woodside, i think we who frequent these forums forget that actually WE are political anoraks, that the vast majority out there do just queitly get on with there lives. What is fantastic though is that in any conversation i have had with friends who range from binmen to senior executives of buisness they all to a man and woman support Independance," in there words, we cannae make a bigger erse eh it than these numpties", and although they have reservations they are fully behind Independance, this bearing in mind that some vote Labour,some Tory and some green. The liberals have been given a severe body swerve.
 
 
# Training Day 2012-02-08 17:28
Agree with you, Woodside. What you say also reflects my own experiences in speaking with friends and relatives, many of whom were previously indifferent to independence at best. Hand on heart, I can say now that not one of them will be voting no..
 
 
# Leswil 2012-02-09 14:45
Does anyone agree, that we need more heavyweight ( sorry Alex, no pun intended!) speakers in the SNP in order to take some of the pressure off Alex Salmond's shoulders. All the media try to belittle him at every opportunity, deride and lambast him. We need people who can help Alex in this regard, people who can handle the press well and further the cause.
As a footnote I have today vowed to never buy the "UNIONIST TIMES" ( aka the Scotsman ) ever again, due to their very biased editorial.
 

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