By James Wilkie

As recently as fifteen years ago few people dreamed that Scotland would ever reach the stage of being given the chance to vote for independence. 

It was a dream that for centuries had seemed beyond realisation, and many who had spent their entire lives working for it never lived to see the chance of realising it.  So what triggered the change in its prospects?

There is only one answer to this question - devolution.  Without it there would have been no take-off platform for the independence rocket, no effective step in the direction of autonomy, and no basis for a nationalist government with the political authority to plan the road ahead.

To put it with brutal candour, to this day we would still be waiting for the SNP to gain a majority of the Scottish seats at Westminster.

So how did this vital intermediate step of devolution come to be realised, in the teeth of the determination of the entire London establishment right across the political spectrum to kill it at any and all cost?  Here is one little-known aspect of the answer.

Establishment hostility reached its sordid peak with the orgy of corruption that was the 1979 referendum.  It is not the subject of this article and there is no need to repeat facts that we all know.  Thatcher’s arrogant coup d’état in the face of a perfectly adequate majority vote similar to that of the 1975 EEC referendum left Scotland stunned, bewildered and disorientated.  It took a long time for the Scots to collect their wits and for the reaction to set in.

One early step in that reaction was the formation of the Scotland-UN Committee in the summer of 1979.  Seething with anger, a group of SNP members and supporters, led by John McGill (FSA Scot.) of Kilmarnock, set out to take the whole issue of home rule to the United Nations and the other international authorities.  I was invited to participate on the strength of my own vitriolic condemnation of the referendum scandal in the pages of The Scotsman and elsewhere.

The only member of the Labour Party who actively cooperated in the project was Dennis Canavan, while others like John Smith and Donald Dewar dropped the whole issue of devolution after Thatcher’s “repeal” of the Scotland Act, like something that was only “for discussion between consenting adults”, as the saying went at the time.

Members of Scotland-UN like John McGill (its founder and secretary), Pat Lang, John Law, David Young and others were among the most vociferous members of the Campaign for a Scottish Parliament, and it was Scotland-UN that in 1979 first proposed the creation of a Scottish Constitutional Convention. 

The Convention finally took shape after an article by myself in the December 1983/January 1984 issue of the magazine Radical Scotland had laid out its structure and procedures.  It also took over much of what Scotland-UN had already devised, like “Scotland’s Claim of Right to Self-Determination”, the title of the second Scotland-UN submission to the United Nations in August1980.  An account of what can be revealed to date can be read on the Internet in the Scotland-UN Papers at www.realmofscotland.com .

Springing forward a number of years, and much international action at top diplomatic level, word reached Scotland-UN that the forthcoming Council of Europe summit meeting in Vienna in October 1993 was to consider the question of nationalism in Europe and its effects. 

This was too good to miss.

In 1980 we had already succeeded in killing a Thatcherite attempt to enlist the support of the Council of Europe (CoE) with a CoE declaration that there was no demand for devolution within the UK.  But 13 years later the whole international political environment had changed, national sovereignty was no longer absolute, and there were now hard and fast international rules of pluralist democracy, human rights and the rule of law to be followed.  We decided to go for the jugular on all three counts.

The first shot in the action was when I attended a small meeting including Peter Leutasch, Deputy Secretary General of the CoE.  At an appropriate point in the discussion I raised the need for an official monitoring system to ensure that the international rules were being upheld by CoE member states – knowing full well that this suggestion was going to be repeated in writing in the Scotland-UN memorandum on the Scottish situation that was about to be forwarded to the CoE.  Leutasch noted the point and carried the suggestion back to Strasbourg. 

John McGill, the energetic Scotland-UN secretary, then sent the memorandum not only to the CoE secretariat in Strasbourg, but also to all of the then three dozen member governments individually (a “saturation bombing” tactic later used by the SDA in 2012 for its independence memorandum to the CoE and OSCE) to ensure that the issue could not be swept under the carpet during the current UK chairmanship of the Committee of Ministers. 

It was also sent – crucially – to those East European states that were applying for CoE membership and were being rejected because their democratic systems did not come up to the Council’s standards.

The Scotland-UN initiative did not meet with universal approval in nationalist circles.  Word came back to us that Council of Europe Secretary-General Catherine Lalumière had praised the memorandum to Mrs. Winnie Ewing at a meeting in the West Indies, which resulted in some angry words at an SNP Executive meeting, as if Scotland-UN had committed some kind of sacrilege by bypassing the only official means of gaining home rule. 

Professor Neil McCormick had previously told us that it was impossible to obtain home rule through international action – “If it had been possible I would have done it long ago!”  Well, we didn’t know it was impossible, so we went and did it.

The effect of the Scotland-UN action in Strasbourg was far greater than we had ever dreamed.  The summit meeting convened in Vienna, where I had a conversation with Lord Mackay, the Lord Chancellor, who was representing the Queen.  The summit ended with a declaration that the Council of Europe was determined to ensure that all its member states adhered without reservation to the international standards of pluralist democracy, the rule of law and human rights. 

The Committee of Ministers was entrusted with drawing up a suitable monitoring system to enforce these standards, exactly as proposed by Scotland-UN.  This was followed on 14 January 1994 by the establishment of a Congress of Local and Regional Authorities of Europe with the goal of ensuring “the existence of a solid local and regional democracy in conformity with the principle of subsidiarity included in the (1985) European Charter of Local Self-Government.”  The UK had never signed the Charter, doubtless for very good reason.

From 1994 on, the Committee of Ministers started monitoring the democratic systems of all the European states, members and aspiring members of the CoE alike.  It was obvious from the start that it could not make exceptions, that existing Western member states had to be judged by the same standards that were being applied to the former Communist countries. 

When the monitoring committee got round to the UK in June 1996 its report was politely damning.  It dealt not only with Scotland, but also with Wales, and it undid the Thatcherite changes to the administration of London.  Later additions dealt with other constitutional deficiencies like the method of appointing Scottish judges.  The most humiliating of all was that it bracketed the UK in a group with Bulgaria, Croatia, Latvia, Moldova and Ukraine as one of six states having “major problems in meeting standards of democracy.”

Devolution thereby ceased to be a political party issue and became a foreign policy commitment that had to be implemented, no matter what government was in office in London.  John Major and the Conservatives were no doubt very thankful that this hot potato bounced onto the lap of Tony Blair and the Labour leadership, whose efforts to kill the Strasbourg action, even while out of office, had resulted in a monumental diplomatic disaster that never achieved publicity.

The Council of Europe issued a statement making it pointedly clear that failure to abide by the international norms of pluralist democracy “would be incompatible with membership of the Council.”

The Tories had stubbornly dragged their feet over the UK’s accession to the Charter of Local Self-Government, but then, in March 1997, a few weeks before the election that brought Blair’s Labour government to power, the Council of Europe pointedly spelled out the sanctions that would be applied, in a series of escalating steps, to any European state that did not “fully and swiftly comply with the basic democratic principles that are at the heart of the European Ideal.”

In plain language, get Scotland, Wales, etc. sorted out or be expelled from the Council of Europe in the most humiliatingly public manner – a step that would have had devastating international consequences, especially just a few weeks before the UK presidency of the European Union.

Total capitulation followed.  With the entire international diplomatic corps breathing down its neck, the new UK government signed the Charter on 3 June 1997 (the last one in Europe to do so) and brought in bills for devolution to Scotland and Wales – to written approval by Strasbourg, but described by Blair as “a damnable nuisance.”  The fulfilment of this foreign policy obligation was therefore a diplomatic and not a political decision.

Tony Blair and the remaining Labour leadership ostentatiously boycotted the opening of the Scottish Parliament and later the Holyrood building in order to show what they thought of the whole business – an attitude later confirmed in Blair’s memoirs. 

Labour’s nose having been well and truly rubbed in the unwelcome devolution project, it was left to Donald Dewar to implement it with the absolute minimum of powers that Labour could get off with, while keeping the Scottish legislature firmly tied to London, and generally whittling devolution down as far as possible. The Holyrood building project was probably intended to be a means of strengthening Labour’s hold on the devolved system as well as glorifying Dewar personally.

The Scottish Government was to be called an “Executive”; the by now superfluous post of Secretary of State would be retained as a kind of anti-Executive tool; Sewel motions for the return of devolved decision making to Westminster were to be used regularly; a flagrantly unconstitutional attempt was made to shift the Scottish-English border in the North Sea northwards in order to transfer 12 major oil wells to English jurisdiction and keep them out of Scottish hands; in defiance of international law, the unionist parties insisted on the fiction that  the new Scottish legislature was subordinate to Westminster; and Dewar’s system for vetting Labour MSP candidates made sure that only reliable party hacks and dyed-in-the-wool unionists would be selected. 

It took eight years for the old order at Holyrood to burn itself out and for a delayed new era to commence.

On 18 January 1999 Dennis Canavan, who on a number of occasions had rendered services to Scotland-UN at Westminster (and suffered for it when he was blackballed by Labour as an MSP candidate) put a question to Foreign Secretary Robin Cook on when the Council of Europe’s report on the UK’s democratic system was going to be published. 

The question was answered by Tony Lloyd, who informed him that “the conclusions of the Committee of Ministers will be made public when available.”  Thirteen years later, despite this commitment, there is still no sign of this information being made public, and there is total official silence on the subject.

So when Labour Home Secretary Jack Straw banned Andrew McFadyen’s relevant Freedom of Information request for the devolution documents, after the officials concerned had approved it, this tale will maybe provide an inkling of the reason why. 

It would have killed Labour’s pretence to have “given” Scotland home rule, to say nothing of its election chances for both Holyrood and Westminster. It was an acute embarrassment for the Labour leadership, a tale of how they had been outmanoeuvred, outgunned and outsmarted by a group of nationalist amateurs. 

More recently, however, when English Attorney General Dominic Grieve again banned any disclosure of the background to devolution, on 9 February 2012, the situation had become even more acute. 

His announcement came two days after the Scottish Democratic Alliance (SDA) had sent a Memorandum to the Council of Europe (CoE), and this time also to the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), requesting their assistance to ensure that there would be no manipulation of the independence referendum. 

Since Scotland-UN’s diplomatic expertise is now vested in the SDA, it was obvious that blocking this information had become a major factor in preventing Scottish opinion from drifting any more strongly towards independence.  That is the stage we are at for the moment. 

Open government, democracy and the rule of law are scraps of paper that may be composted for the sake of expediency.  Until these facts are made known, however, there can be no balanced judgement on the independence issue.  For that is exactly what the unionists fear.


It must be emphasised that there are still some gaps in the available information on the background to devolution.  The full story of how it came about will not be told until the records of the Foreign Office and Cabinet Office are available.  Meantime, a substantial outline of the story, including the text of the Strasbourg memorandum and a list of source material available so far, can be read in the Scotland-UN Committee Papers at: www.realmofscotland.com

Comments  

 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 02:37
If the Scotland-UN Committee was so influential in allowing the former Soviet Bloc countries entry into the Council of Europe, surely it should be easy for the SDA to get documentary confirmation of that from those grateful nations?

Since external documentary evidence for your claims would be of great political importance, I'm surprised that you haven't done so already.
 
 
# James 2012-02-18 10:35
A lot of documentary evidence from the Council of Europe records, Hansard, etc., is listed on the Realm of Scotland site. Is government admission recorded in Hansard that the CoE investigation took place not sufficient proof?
 
 
# maisiedotts 2012-02-18 11:10
I found the question asked in HoC by Denis Canavan by sheer chance. I don't doubt that this is the truth, *with my tin foil hat on* we all know what the Westminster spooks are capable of.

I believe the papers are lodged with the NLoS if so can anyone view these? Perhaps that would settle the affair once and for all?
 
 
# Fourfolksache 2012-02-18 02:43
Great article James. Have seen brief reference to this in various comments but no thorough analysis. It ranks along with the McCrone report as valuable evidence to give the lie to Liebour's claim that they are devolutionists. Both of these 'lies' need to be hammered home in order to persuade voters not to believe Call me Dave's latest lie ie vote no and we'll support more devolution!
Lament is forever spouting the lie about 'We are the party of devolution ' and she needs to be challenged. Just don't expect the MSM to do it!
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 03:00
If the SDA can produce the evidence for this claim, that would be great.

Currently, they have published the document they submitted

www.realmofscotland.com/.../

but no evidence at all that anyone paid attention to it.

For example, they say "However, with the opening of some of the records of the Council of Europe under the ten-year rule it has become increasingly evident that the 1993 Scotland-UN Memorandum – which is reproduced here in full – triggered a programme of action in the Council of Europe that revolutionised the maintenance of democratic standards throughout Europe at one of the great turning points in European history, with a probable secondary effect worldwide."

However, the actual documents linked to

www.realmofscotland.com/.../

make no reference to the Scotland-UN Committee, and simply quote the principles being adopted by the Council of Europe.

If I have missed that reference, I am sure that Dr Wilkie or other SDA members will be able to give us it.
 
 
# Keef 2012-02-18 05:03
I'm with you Oldnat. Something in writing to substantiate this would be fantastic, as if true, it would be a huge bombshell to drop on Labour. Especially if it was brought up in the Scottish parliment.
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-18 05:47
This is a very interesting piece and it will take a fair bit of digging into as there is so much on that site.
I have found some reference to Scotland -UN Memorandum. Not sure if it refers to what oldnat is getting at or not. I'm gonna have to do a bit more reading when I can open my eyes again.

extract.....
This procedure was carefully thought out, for two reasons. We were under no illusions about the ability of the UK government to have the matter swept under the carpet through its diplomats on secondment to the Council of Europe. We wanted to pre-empt any such action by directly involving three dozen other member governments, when the Scottish case could no longer be kept secret. Secondly, we were out to use Russia and the other applicant countries of Eastern Europe as a counterweight by presenting the Scottish case as a weapon they could use to advance their own.

There was consternation at the Council of Europe when the facts of the Scottish political situation were revealed, although CoE Secretary-General Catherine Lalumière outspokenly praised the memorandum’s presentation of the Scottish case. Scotland-UN deliberately played the major powers of Europe against each other in a hard-nosed exercise of diplomatic blackmail. The gist of the S-UN communication to the applicant countries of Eastern Europe was: look at what they are demanding from you, and then look at what is happening to Scotland in an existing member state. The Russians in particular knew how to use it. Among the points it made were:......

further in....

It should be emphasised that, while the Scotland-UN Memorandum initiated the process, and played a significant part as a reference document in what came after, once the Council of Europe had inaugurated its monitoring system and its own investigations it was not just Scotland, but the entire UK democratic structure that was found to be defective and in need of drastic overhaul. There was no mention of Wales or London, or the procedure for appointing judges, in the Memorandum, because the Council extended the investigation into those and other fields on its own initiative.

The Thatcher government, whose corrupt manipulation of the 1979 referendum was by now clear to everyone, was not amused by the Scotland-UN activities, to put it mildly. In reply to a parliamentary question at Westminster in 1989 by Dennis Canavan, MP (the only Labour politician to cooperate with Scotland-UN) Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher had stated that she did not consider the matter of self-determination for Scotland to be cognisable by the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe (Scotland-UN's campaign at the CSCE had clearly begun to bite).

That attitude very shortly had to be revised. Another question by Mr Canavan, to Labour Foreign Secretary Robin Cook in January 1999, elicited a grudging admission that the investigation by the Council of Europe had in fact taken place and that the CoE would release the relevant information in due course - early but clear proof of the success of the Scotland-UN action in Strasbourg.



www.realmofscotland.com/.../ - The Story in Brief
 
 
# James 2012-02-18 11:10
Oldnat, That is not the way international diplomacy works. For example, the first action to be taken in response to such a submission is to invite the observations of the government concerned. This is the present stage of the SDA memorandum to the CoE and OSCE on supervision of the independence memorandum.

As emphasised in the Realm of Scotland account, the Council of Europe did not rely on the Scotland-UN memorandum alone - although without that it would never have been informed of the Scottish situation. It immediately started an investigation of its own, and extended it to Wales and London, and later to other aspects of the UK constitution, on its own account. The Scotland-UN initiative triggered the whole proceedings, but thereafter its memorandum was just one item in a mass of evidence that the CoE dug out for itself.

I have little doubt that, when the papers of the Foreign Office and Cabinet Office are made available, the name of Scotland-UN will figure very largely there. As the footnote to this article states, you must remember that we are working on only partial evidence for the meantime. That evidence is more than sufficient to prove what happened, but a whole lot of gaps have still to be filled in.
 
 
# Keef 2012-02-18 07:54
I have spent the last few hours (my eyes are going bleary) on this site. There is, indeed, a lot of interesting material on there. Some links don't work however. I tried to read Harry Reid's expose of Government control of the Scottish media, but the link fails.
 
 
# alicmurray 2012-02-18 09:28
Would this not make a great thriller. We have plenty of male and female leading actors, great locations whizzing all over Europe and the ultimate bad guys at Westminster. Kevin McKidd or his friends we need you to tell this story.
 
 
# art1001 2012-02-18 10:08
This indeed is the best imaginable political thriller. This can kill Unionism stone dead by itself - especially after the film explodes on the screen internationally . Films with the English as the bad guys always do well!

To see this article in print here is a big step forward as NewsNet must have had assurances of its veracity as its reputation is at stake too. For Westminster to deny freedom of information access to their devolution discussion papers suggests that there is indeed something too ghastly for them to ever be known publicly. Something like this would more than qualify.

I have read the site and there surely must be corroborative evidence obtainable on request from the OSCE or CoE or do they maintain strict confidentiality rules too. We know the UK signed but indeed why would they be the last to do so?

If we asked the Russian Government for information they would probably be unwilling to do so for fear of creating a diplomatic row with London. Having said that diplomatic rows over spying are quite common. Maybe Putin could be persuaded and Russia Today get the story out. It would surely appeal to the Russian sense of humour to see the English completely shafted internationally . I am sure he would go and see the film.

In short if London can keep it hidden then I am with OldNat - we need some additional evidence.
 
 
# UpSpake 2012-02-18 09:30
Lamentable Lamont is correct that Labour were indeed the party of devolution. Only because the Tories under Major bottled out and landed it in Blair's lap.
I doubt very much if the Council of Europe were ever properly advised that a Parish Council had been established in Scotland when it might have been their understanding as articulated by Winnie Ewing that the extant Scots Parliament had merely been re-convened with all powers and rights intact.
The continual mugging of the Scots exposed by the Scotland - UN committee's work lays bare the utter hatred of democracy by Labour and to a lesser extent, the Tories.
What has changed, nothing much. Vested interests will always be vested interests however you dress them up.
Therefore beware vested interests bearing gifts or promises of jam tomorrow.
Ain't ever going to happen unless external pressure is brought to bear hence, the SDA action to the Council of Europe and the OSCE.
It might take a week or two to have an effect but simple awareness of the situation and the hoops that had to be gone through before and without the help of the internet, facebook and twitter that is available today. The walls of lies rests very thin these days. It would take only the lightest of winds to blow it all away.
Good work SDA.
 
 
# Robert Louis 2012-02-18 11:30
The Scotland - UN committee was NOT the SDA. Let's not get carried away. Their may be some from that committee in the SDA, but the two are NOT the same thing.
 
 
# James 2012-02-18 13:04
Quite correct RL. All that the article states is that the Scotland-UN diplomatic expertise is now vested in the SDA on a personal level. Otherwise there is no connection between them.
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-18 09:46
I'm not surprised that Donald Dewar had a hand in trying to bury devolution, but surprised that John Smith would be in on such a foul act. Canavan from memory was well thought of and a politician who is not afraid to speak his mind. I'm afraid that back in the late 70's, early 80s I was more interested in finding a job, attending Saturday night discos and fishing new and interesting lochs, (not necessarily in that order), politics wasn't high on my list of things to do then.

When they erected his statue outside the concert hall I thought at the time, why was there no mention of anyone other than Dewar being insturmental in bringing this about? Most importantly why was there no mention of any SNP politician being of any import or influence when a Scottish parliament was a dream long cherished and long fought for way before Labour took any interest?

You can only conclude that manipulating historic events is the favoured hobby of those in power.

Who knew.
 
 
# alicmurray 2012-02-18 09:59
When the lights go out in George Square to the Labour party in May they better take Dewar with them when they go. Where are the metal thieves when you need them?
 
 
# art1001 2012-02-18 10:13
It would generate a lot of revenue for the newly independent Scottish state to get the scrap metal value for all the statues of unionists and collaborators like Dewar, Wellington, George XXXX etc that despoil our parks and avenues.
 
 
# Ard Righ 2012-02-21 11:13
I'll second that. We should melt them down in favour of unitary monument for an Independent Scotland.
 
 
# James 2012-02-18 12:52
Macart, John Smith was never in favour of devolution. He was appointed to organise the 1978 devolution legislation, without much enthusiasm, and when that was killed by Thatcher he lost all interest in the issue. He never actively tried to "bury" it, but he never stirred a finger to resurrect it.
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-18 15:09
alic - art - James

It'll make interesting reading to see that Devolution report surface at some point. It would make even better reading to see any kind of news media publish it for public consumption. I doubt if Labour could survive as a party in Scotland if it ever saw the light of day. How long after that before the odd statue gets the traffic cone treatment? :)
 
 
# mealer 2012-02-18 10:00
Its going to take more than the SNP to win the referendum.Eck knows this.I welcome the efforts of all those who have Scotlands interests at heart.
 
 
# Keef 2012-02-18 10:04
Reading this site I came across a paragraph where they describe the mysterious events of Willie McRae's death without mentioning him by name. They do, however, imply that he was working for them.
 
 
# James 2012-02-18 10:31
Willie McRae was one of the Scotland-UN Committee's two legal advisers.
 
 
# Keef 2012-02-18 10:58
James, I do hope you understand my concern about being able to validate all this. If true, it is absolute dynamite. I hope to God it is and would be enternaly grateful to Scotland-UN. If it is bogus, it would leave a lot of people looking very stupid and cause a huge credibilty issue.
So at the moment I'm just being wary.
 
 
# art1001 2012-02-18 10:35
It would be nice to see more investigation on this.
 
 
# James 2012-02-18 11:15
The answer is simple - let the UK Government open all the relevant records in order to prevent misunderstandin gs. That, however, is precisely what they are refusing to do, and they no doubt have their reasons.
 
 
# Stevie Cosmic 2012-02-18 13:33
Exactly James. The FOI requests being denied at the highest levels because it is 'not in the public's interest' speaks volumes to me, and should to others too.
 
 
# cynicalHighlander 2012-02-18 11:17
The Death of William McRae: fantompowa.net/.../...
 
 
# Ben Power 2012-02-18 10:11
Fascinating, truly fascinating. It really does show that a few very dedicated Scots can really lead by example and make a change for the better. Oppressors throughout our history have come and gone and none have ever been able to permanently subdue Scots. This current lot will not either.

After independence there should be a process of reconciliation that digs out all this sort of dirt, identifies it and the players and works out some sort of resolution for the future that does as much as possible to correct or at least mollify the injustices and incredibly callous disregard for Scots human rights and feelings on those matters.
With the history rewritten according to the truth of the matter instead of the callous elite exploitative view perhaps a process of healing can happen. It needs to happen, the same as in other countries where indigenous people finally wrest back their culture from corrupt and oppressive masters.
There are 5 million Scots here and 40 million Scots overseas who have been dispossessed of their rights to peace of mind, community, country and family through the activities of those who actively sought to quash the underlying Scots culture of family, community, equality and fairness. Some of that number have been so violated and suppressed in their personal and family history that they have taken on and mimic the views of the oppressive elite as “the winners way” or have become “numb” to any feelings about it in attempts to gain some sort of personal or family resolution.

This article above is an inspirational piece that shows perhaps the time really has arrived to rewrite truthfully the Scots history from the Scots perspective as opposed to being from the empire, southern or elite perspective. Perhaps it is also a time to rewrite the Scots future as well according to the hopes and dreams of the Scots themselves, nurturing all that we hold valuable about our family, community, environment, and the very land itself, all of which we all belong in, and have the exclusive right to determine our future in.
 
 
# Exile 2012-02-18 18:23
Spot on, Ben. Thanks for that.
 
 
# Ard Righ 2012-02-21 11:21
"There are 5 million Scots here and 40 million Scots overseas who have been dispossessed of their rights to peace of mind, community, country and family through the activities of those who actively sought to quash the underlying Scots culture of family, community, equality and fairness."

Common land can be added to that list.

The painful truth. Also it appears that councils act out the"self hating jew" concept, selling that which is not theirs and destroying any type of commonsensical excellence in community or landscape.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-02-18 10:37
This analysis of the 'real' reasons behind devolution has been known about for some time (years). Is it significant that it does not seem to get wider publicity than on these pages and in the web site of the organisation who revealed the story?

The refusal of the release of cabinet papers surrounding the devolution discussions (an exceptional ruling apparently) does raise suspicions that there is much that the UK government wants to hide.

The media are either doing a great job of supressing it, which would not surprise me as we are dealing again with burying anything that would harm Labour, or there is nothing substantive in the story.

It would be ideal if Labour were shown up for what they are.

When are we going to hear it discussed on BBC Scotland? Better still, perhaps STV's Scotland Tonight programme could take the lead.

Maybe the author could send them a copy of the article.
 
 
# mato21 2012-02-18 10:54
Dennis Canavans memories of these events would be worth an article.He alone is a giant of Labour in Scotland in modern times An honest man who put princple and country before party Party put party before principle as was seen when he was deselected When he went on to roup them the people obviously understood this
 
 
# James 2012-02-18 11:22
Dennis Canavan is indeed an upstanding man and a worthy representative of the people. His involvement in Scotland-UN was only to put parliamentary questions at Westminster over more than 10 years, and he was not responsible for the S-UN activities themselves. He can undoubtedly confirm the Foreign Office's admission in January 1999 that the Strasbourg action did, in fact, take place - and it is, of course, recorded in Hansard.
 
 
# cynicalHighlander 2012-02-18 11:12
National Library of Scotland: 195.153.34.9/.../...

Memorandum to the Council of Europe 1980: www.tsemp-c2.org/.../01.pdf
 
 
# Fortitudine 2012-02-18 12:11
www.tsemp-c2.org/.../01.pdf
"simply voted down, directly or indirectly, by the huge English majority in the
Westminster Parliament, in an atmosphere of jeers, contempt and derision for Scotland
and all things Scottish"

Some things never change eh?
 
 
# RobQos 2012-02-18 11:20
This really should be kept as the Newsnet Scotland main headline for a few days. It is an explosive article that people really need to be aware of.
 
 
# maisiedotts 2012-02-18 11:27
Sorry folks I don't have a link for this. This is the question asked by Dennis Canavan in HoC in 1999

From Hansard this appears to back up the claim of monitoring.

"UK Democratic and Governmental Structures (Council of Europe Study)
HC Deb 18 January 1999 vol 323 c346W 346W

§ Mr. Canavan

To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will publish the results of the examination of the United Kingdom's democratic and Governmental structures which was carried out by the Council of Europe from June 1996 onwards. [65326]

§ Mr. Tony Lloyd

The Secretary General's overview of the functioning and protection of democratic institutions in all Council of Europe member states remains before the Committee of Ministers which will resume its discussions at its next monitoring meeting in March 1999.

The conclusions of the Committee of Ministers will be made"
 
 
# James 2012-02-18 13:13
"The conclusions of the Committee of Ministers will be made public when available." - Tony Lloyd for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 13:24
What Canavan was referring to was this
wcd.coe.int/.../

You will find one of these for every member state of the Council of Europe. Wilkie is selective in his choice of documentation.

I woudn't be at all surprised if the 1996 Resolution 31

wcd.coe.int/.../

didn't give considerable impetus to the devolutionists in Labour to persuade Blair that he should go along with the devolution project.

However, my concern is that Wilkie is making use of a minimal trail of connectivity between the Scotland-UN Committee, Resolution 31, and devolution in the UK. That the multiple set of political groupings with which he has been involved, never seem to have seen fit to question his version of reality is more concerning.

That Newsnet gives a voice to a range of political groups and individuals is a great thing. However, just because words appear on a screen doesn't mean that they should be uncritically accepted.
 
 
# James 2012-02-18 14:11
Neither of these documents is the individual report on the UK's democratic structures to which Dennis Canavan referred. They are publicly available because they are harmless. I doubt whether members of the Labour Party even knew that the CoE had the matter under consideration.

Why this attitude of hostility towards people who have spent their whole lives fighting for home rule - and achieving results?
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 14:36
"Neither of these documents is the individual report on the UK's democratic structures to which Dennis Canavan referred."

I have no idea how you make that out.

"Recommendation 49 (1998) on the situation of local and regional democracy in the United Kingdom" is precisely that.

That individual members knew nothing about it is quite correct. However, since I was in the Labour Party at that time, working for devolution, I can confirm that those like Dewar, Canavan et al, certainly did know about it.

Your blind faith that it was Wilkie who achieved results, and no one in the devolutionist wing of Labour is just that - blind faith.

I will continue to be hostile to those peddling unsubstantiated stories. The evidence, if it exists, should be easily available from the grateful nations of the former Soviet Bloc. I'm sure they would be happy to provide attested copies to such a great man as James Wilkie.
 
 
# maisiedotts 2012-02-18 14:54
The "Rapporteurs" (to you and I monitors or reporters) visited London and Edinburgh 15 to 17 December 1997 and from 26 to 27 March 1998; each would have produced an individual report. I believe it is those individual reports both James and Dennis Canavan were referring. Perhaps he will clarify if that is the case.
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-18 17:47
???

This point scoring, is pointless. It only serves to do damage to the message the story is telling.

The point that Westminster was forced to hold the devolution referendum because of their shameful lack of democracy stands.

This nit picking over who exactly gets the bragging rights is quite irrelevant.
You sound like you just want a fecht? Whatever, but while you're going at it you are actively damaging the point of the story, which is crucial to the independence debate.

As Dr. Wilkie says, why would you do that.
 
 
# Exile 2012-02-18 18:33
oldnat

Does it really matter? I don't think James is claiming the S-UN committee did it all by themselves; rather they stimulated a massive kick up the posterior for the British State that allowed the devolutionists in Labour to push devolution through against Blair's wishes. Where's the harm in giving them credit for that? I have no personal axe to grind here, being a member of the SNP, not the SDA. But credit where credit's due.And the SNP leadership is after all human. They are not infallible. I became very aware of that when Winnie Ewing spoke at Westminster to criticise the newly independent Estonia for demanding a passing ability in Estonian as a criterion for Russian residents to receive citizenship. She displayed total ignorance of the Estonian situation and seemed to be playing to the gallery to make the SNP look 'good' by comparison. It left a nasty taste in the mouth. But the main point here is, if the S-UN committee managed to get the ball rolling, where's the harm in acknowledging that?
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 18:46
Truth always matters.

If the S-UN Committee actually did "get the ball rolling", then I will be glad to praise their achievement.

They (Wilkie in any of his many guises) have not produced a single shred of evidence to support the idea that they did. Lots of people in lots of countries were pushing the case for increased autonomy of nations and regions in the states of Europe. For any of those people to portray themselves (or the movement that they were then part of) as being "the" originators of constitutional change, without positive evidence of that is being arrogant at best, and self-aggrindesment at worst.
 
 
# Mad Jock McMad 2012-02-18 11:37
A very interesting article indeed, especially as it has brought all the fragments together into one place including the derivation of the SDA.

Maybe it is time for those who suspect the SDA's political direction to cut them some slack and for the SDA authors and bloggers to be a little less self congratulatory or insistent.

Mr Wilkie I get the picture, the SDA is paddling in the same direction, you have issues with the SNP snubbing you - fine, I can see why you feel aggrieved but for the next two years Scotland needs the likes of you to unruffle your feathers ( as do those in the SNP who felt outmanouvered by Scotland - UN) because independence is too important to allow petty, play ground differences to continue to get in the way.

Personally I have suggested the SDA will become the natural home for disaffected Conservatives and Libdems, post independence.

tarffadvertiser.blogspot.com/.../...
 
 
# Briggs 2012-02-18 12:00
One of the best reads on NNS for a long time.

The SNP aren't the only people in Scotland that are seeking Independence for our Country.

I dare say there are many in the Labour Party who yearn for Independence as much as we do.

They are prevented from saying so by their London centric hierarchy.
 
 
# James 2012-02-18 12:32
The SDA totally supports the SNP up to and including independence. It exists to plan for the post-independence situation and it has no problems with the SNP apart from a divergence on several items of post-independence policy.

The SNP did not snub Scotland-UN. Since most S-UN members were also SNP members there was short-lived annoyance at what was perceived as short-circuiting the official channels. In fact, it is doubtful of the CoE could have entertained a submission from a breakaway political party. At one point Alex Salmond wanted to integrate S-UN into the SNP as a kind of diplomatic arm of the movement, but it was better off acting independently.
 
 
# Teri 2012-02-18 21:05
The important thing is that we all work together towards our common goal - Indpendence. I'm sure there will be many new parties that come to the fore when elections take place for the First Scottish parliament of the independent nation.
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-18 17:54
I can't believe with the importance of the winning of an independence referendum at stake, anyone would be fighting like that.

I don't see any of the self-congratulation by the SDA in the above piece, neither will ordinary readers. If it is there, I couldn't give a damn, this is still an important article. The information in it is crucial to the debate.

Petty squabbling is exactly what opponents of independence want, it's their dream. And it's also a good reason for voters to turn away, thinking, och, we'll just mess it up anyway.

Come on.
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 01:28
Why, at such an important time, would you think it ok for someone (with a diplomatic & political background) to put up an article (which is dynamite if provable) without sufficient support to prove it?
And then blame the people asking for more proof?
Petty squabbling may indeed turn people away, so if you can't back up what you say, is it really a good idea to hold forth aboutti?
Also, sometimes people get turned away when they hold beliefs which their opponents ask them to back up - do you think it serves the independence movement well to have people go around making claims they can't actually back up yet only to be asked -'prove it?' ?

Come on.
 
 
# Exile 2012-02-18 18:35
Absolutely right, MJM. Well said.
 
 
# the wallace 2012-02-20 13:40
MJMwell said,couldnt have put it better maself.
 
 
# RandomScot 2012-02-20 13:56
No

As it stands it is the thing of conspiracy theories and fantaqsies without a shred of proof.

As it stands it's a hostage to fortuune that could, in some small way, undermine some of the credibility of Independence supporters.

"They say X, but the also believe in this conspiracy"

Therefore, this needs proof before it is to be taken seriously, otherwise it's as of the same validity as David Icke's Lizards

Out-maneuvered? Please.
 
 
# Keef 2012-02-18 11:47
Mention of SDA and Martial Law springs to mind.

Is martial law really in the best interest of the Scots Sovereignty?
 
 
# James 2012-02-18 12:00
Where do you get that notion from? There is nothing about martial law on the SDA website. The subject here is devolution.
 
 
# Keef 2012-02-18 12:19
Come come James it was up there in black and white. Whatsmore, while it was up it was duly noted by more than just me. To pretend it was not is to make me more suspicious of the SDA.
 
 
# James 2012-02-18 12:45
I am not pretending anything. I am not a member of the SDA's constitution committee and I have no personal recollection of any mention of martial law, which I would certainly have opposed. A number of external experts are presently working on the third draft of a Scottish constitution, which certainly contains no mention of martial law, so what is the point in bringing this up in the context of an article on devolution?
 
 
# Keef 2012-02-18 13:00
The reason I bring it up James is because the SDA is being mentioned by some of the posters. The reason I bring it up James is because people should know that the SDA thought that martial law was good enough to be put into their proposed constitution for Scotland. Just because it no longer is on their website, does not make it go away James. The reason I bring it up is I believe the people on here who are discussing devolution and SDA in the same breath, should be made aware of the SDA's view's on martial law in Scotland.Just to remove the article and pretend it was not there is scary. I'd feel a lot better if it was admitted to and this pretence, like it was never there was dropped. It does your credibility and that of the SDA a dis-service.
 
 
# art1001 2012-02-18 13:03
This article is nothing to do with the SDA as I understand it it is about about the Scotland UN committee.
 
 
# Electric Hermit 2012-02-18 21:29
Quoting Keef:
...the SDA thought that martial law was good enough to be put into their proposed constitution for Scotland.


I have no idea what proposals you are referring to. But any constitution must include provision for continuity of government during periods of emergency. The mere fact of martial law being dealt with in a (draft) constitution does not imply that it is being approved - only that it is being brought within the constraints of constitutional law. What would the alternative be?
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 01:32
You may be right EH, but I'd be very interested to see how many constitutions actually contain explicit provisions for martial law.
Slightly tangentially, it made me wonder - how does martial law fit in with the notion of the people (not state or govt) being sovereign?
 
 
# Electric Hermit 2012-02-19 02:46
Quoting mrbfaethedee:
You may be right EH, but I'd be very interested to see how many constitutions actually contain explicit provisions for martial law.
Slightly tangentially, it made me wonder - how does martial law fit in with the notion of the people (not state or govt) being sovereign?



Martial law is pretty much by definition extra-constitutional. It's just a question of the extent to which the constitution permits and constrains the use of the military. It could very well be argued that it is better to have specific provisions written into the constitution rather than have martial law effectively defining its own limits.
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 03:18
Yes, I can't help but feel that martial law is extra-constitutional too. An 'in extremis' measure taken by the state, outwith normal circumstances.

Martial law is surely the implementation of the state's 'monopoly of force' over the people.

It makes me wonder about the type of democrats who would write such an extra-constitutional provision into a constitution. I expect if I trawled the worlds various constitutions, I might find it more than I'd like.
 
 
# RandomScot 2012-02-20 13:53
James

You keep pretending this is a surpsie to you, but it has been mentioned often enough that you, as the chairman, should have looked into it.

Moreover, on the thread following you article you expressed the desire that the SNP control its 'adherents'

I guess in your small circle you don't get asked for evidence to back up your statements

Luckily I'm not in the SNP but the idea that a party should control people speaks to an authoritarianis m deep in your soul, consistend with your nascent party's desire to have the ability to declare martial law at will
 
 
# RandomScot 2012-02-18 12:43
There is nothing there now, there was, Deepwater saw it, Hazel of NNS say it and commented on it. I provided links in the past, you commented on deepwater saying they saw it, don't come it
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 01:35
The SDA site is a fairly protean thing, I expect that solid positions aren't reasonably to be expected of a 'registered political party currently operating as a think tank' (did I get it right?).
 
 
# Talorcan 2012-02-18 12:41
I seem to recall that it was James Wilkie who addressed a meeting in the United Nations just shortly after the 79 referendum. There were representatives from a great number of nations at that meeting and most of them were unaware of what had been happening in Scotland. In Mr. Wilkie's words (if memory serves) he said that when the full facts of the way in which the Scots had been treated were explained to those at that assembly, ''You could have heard a pin drop''.
Well done James. What wouldn't I give to see Donald Dewar's statue pulled down and smashed to pieces and a new one of James Wilkie put in its place.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 13:37
I suspect that James Wilkie would agree with you. Why else would he want to portray himself as having the central role in world affaire?

I've been at meetings where you have "heard a pin drop", because none of the audience were paying any attention.

If anyone, other than James Wilkie, can produce supporting evidence of his massive effect on the UN, then I'd like to see it.
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-18 17:56
Totally unnecessary, just cheapens the debate...
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 01:36
but you think the comment immediately prior to it didn't cheapen the debate!?
 
 
# Exile 2012-02-18 18:43
oldnat

I imagine the reference to hearing a pin drop was to do with the content of what was being said, not the person who was saying it. As I said above, credit where credit's due. I don't get the impression James is any sort of an egotist. His motive in writing here is to torpedo Labour's posturing about being the 'party of devolution', which translates as 'trust us and vote NO'. Well done James wilkie and your committee. You are among the giants on whose shoulders Scotland's current leadership stands. Let's see the job through to the end without wrangling over who did what and when. Unity of purpose is key to Scotland's success over the next few years.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 18:52
As I said previously, give me a single independent report of the events at that meeting that confirms Wilkie's estimate of his own effectiveness, then I'll be happy to acknowledge it. Just one. Not too hard, surely?
 
 
# Exile 2012-02-18 18:38
I'll second that. And I'd love to wield the slegdehammer.
 
 
# James 2012-02-19 20:36
You are right. I did address the United Nations in Geneva on the post 1979 Scottish situation. I was one of a three-man Scotland-UN Committee delegation, the others being Dr. Shanks Kerr and Chris Thomson.
 
 
# ratzo 2012-02-18 12:45
There may be important truth in all this, but, like Oldnat, I'm sceptical on account of the gaps. Also, the the writing style is thoroughly tendentious and paranoid, straight out of the Baigent and Leigh spoof, "The Holy Blood & the Holy Grail'.
 
 
# Exile 2012-02-18 18:46
How can a writing style be paranoid? And, hey, these guys are not the enemy. I'm solid SNP from a young age, and I was exhilarated when the SDA put in their recent representations to the CoE. We need all sorts of inputs to winning this (bloodless) war of national liberation.
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 01:38
What's with all the 'enemies' on this thread tonight?
Of course a writing style can be paranoid, or whimsical, romantic, sexy, brutal, whatever.

War! huh! What is it good for?...
 
 
# Ard Righ 2012-02-21 11:32
Absalootley nuthin say it again!
 
 
# RandomScot 2012-02-18 12:47
While I am suspicious of the SDA and their claims, never mind what I consider and interesting shared syntax among their up porters.

I welcome this reticle as a kick off fr discussion.

Documentary proof from other sources, as others have mentioned, would be required for me to believe it
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 01:39
Here here, RandomScot!
Very interesting stuff, evidence would change it from an iteresting article to something far more important.
 
 
# RaboRuglen 2012-02-18 13:05
Hi there,

Dr. Wilkie writes :- "It (Scottish Independence) was a dream that for centuries had seemed beyond realisation, and many who had spent their entire lives working for it never lived to see the chance of realising it. So what triggered the change in its prospects?

There is only one answer to this question - devolution. Without it there would have been no take-off platform for the independence rocket, no effective step in the direction of autonomy, and no basis for a nationalist government with the political authority to plan the road ahead.

To put it with brutal candour, to this day we would still be waiting for the SNP to gain a majority of the Scottish seats at Westminster."


I am absolutely convinced he is correct. However, equally important had to be the decision of the LibDems and SLAB not to form a coalition government, allowing the SNP to form a minority one after the election of 2007. Without this appalling misjudgement on their part I expect we would not now have an overall majority in Holyrood, or would only now be embarking on our first minority government, and there would be no referendum.

What on earth possessed the Unionists to make this misjudgement? I doubt if we will ever really know. But thank God they did.

Regards,
 
 
# Exile 2012-02-18 18:48
Rab

I expect they thought minority goverment would "kill nationalism stone dead". LOL
 
 
# Juteman 2012-02-18 13:41
Fantastic article.
More please.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 13:43
Without evidence from other sources than Wilkie "Fantastic" is a very good description. As to evidence, I totally agree with you "More please".
 
 
# maisiedotts 2012-02-18 13:49
I think we need to step back from the past and any future plans any of the parties have and work together for the benefit of Scotland. Harping on about what was said in the past is not a good way of moving forward bearing in mind the real adversaries we face - the Unionists! Can we please put differences to one side or resolve them out of the public gaze so we do not look every bit as bad as those we seek to discredit?
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-18 18:37
Absolutely.
 
 
# Juteman 2012-02-18 13:51
And i agree with you, oldnat. ;)
 
 
# silvermcg 2012-02-18 13:53
I have also spent several hours last night and this morning reading all links provided,and i say this as someone off no real knowledge or background to help me get the horrible tingle from my spine and head, this is -disturbing,plea se everyone who wrires for or on this sight thankyou and pleeeeeease keep going i admire you all for the lengths that you have gone to in the past and present.
 
 
# Soixante-neuf 2012-02-18 13:54
Oldnat, I entirely agree with you. James has been touting this story for years, without producing any evidence at all to support it. The list of documents he has lodged with the National Library is a joke - background things like a copy of the Treaty of Union, vaguely supportive messages from some "great and good" (think Salmond's letter to Fred the Shred here), the documents and petitions they themselves submitted, letters merely acknowledging receipt of these documents, and some holiday snaps.

I have not seen any evidence this self-appointed group of meddling busybodies had any effect at all on policy or outcomes.
 
 
# Keef 2012-02-18 14:06
Cynicalhighland er provides a link further up the page.
It looks a lot more than what you describe 69.
 
 
# mudfries 2012-02-18 14:16
One of the best things I've ever read on Newsnet, it makes me angry, but more determind! its another nail in the Unionist labour partys coffin, I'm going to get as many people to read this as I can.
 
 
# the wallace 2012-02-18 14:17
A very interesting article james,hopefully you guys can dig up more evidence, to disprove labours claims to being the parents of devolution.Well done keep up the good work.
 
 
# freeussoon 2012-02-18 14:28
Are we a suspicious lot up here?

Damn tootin' we are,and with just cause.

I'm deeply suspicious of Westminster, and they do have a habit of smiling to our faces whilst stabbing us in the back!

But while there are aspects of how devolution came about which are as yet unknown,I've got to say that I do believe there is a large element of truth to what is already public knowledge.

Anyway,we are were we are and things can only get better....THAT I truly believe.
 
 
# Gwendog 2012-02-18 14:57
I am somewhat saddened by some of the comments above. This is actually quite a stonking article and the dismay amongst SNP posters that such could eminate from other than their ranks is... just wrong.

Personally, I am strongly against many of the SNP's social engineering projects but despite such, I am equally for independence for our country.

Perhaps we can save the squabbling for after we all achieve our goal. (and after the hangovers clear from what should be quite a celebration)
 
 
# maisiedotts 2012-02-18 16:05
Thanks Gwendog basically what I've been saying throughout too. You would hardly believe that both groups have the same desired outcome.
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-18 17:59
It's very disappointing, especially from some of the 'respected' old guard on here.
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 01:45
Well, respect is a thing earned, particularly in (pseudo)anonymo us online environments where a person's competence, honesty and reputation are implicitly a part of the public record.

The sneering quotes you place around the word respected aren't something you want to suit your online identity.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-19 01:53
Actually, I have realised that there was some abuse of Professor Doctor Wilkie on here.

He was described as "the notorious fantasist / hoaxer Wilkie" by a poster calling him/herself 357ms.

I look forward to his/her response when Professor Doctor Wilkie describes him/her as a cybernat.
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 03:23
Ahh, 'cybernat' - badge of honour, or mark of the devil?

I agree to a point, it was a bit strong. Still, accusations of being a fantisist or hoaxer are refutable if false.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-19 03:28
However, such claims do require some evidential basis. Have I used those words before somewhere?
 
 
# Exile 2012-02-18 18:51
Agree 100%.
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 01:42
What squabbling?
Can you show me some 'squabbling' that isn't either -
a) a request for some evidence to back up the claims made.
or
b) a wee stooshie caused by someone taking umbrage that someone dared to ask for some evidence

???
 
 
# 357ms 2012-02-18 15:13
Well well, the notorious fantasist / hoaxer Wilkie makes his appearance here.

I'm glad to see some are as sceptical as I am.

Let's think about it: if these claims are true, then literally hundreds of diplomats, politicians and the like all across Europe must know this "secret" - that the UK was "forced" to adopt devolution.

But in all this time, NOT ONE of them has ever blown the gaffe. Not even the Russians, during one of their frequent falling-outs with the UK.

No, Only "Dr Wilkie" and his acolytes in the SDA Know the Truth.

Guff.

What happened is that Wilkie and his mates made their presentations, the COE quangocrats nodded, thanked them, said "Yes, very nice presentation" - and then shut the door and did NOTHING. Because they had no power or scope to do.

Go on, read the deeply dull COE documents on the UK.

wcd.coe.int/.../

wcd.coe.int/.../

They barely mention devolution and the witter on about the intricacies of local council finance.

Incidentally, it appears that the COE people don't think much of trying to fund local authorities via a centrally-determined tax. Who thought of that?
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 15:26
They didn't much like "Best Value" either,which was brought in 2003!
 
 
# Zef 2012-02-18 15:30
I've heard a lot of claims from this bunch now that the ball is really rolling again and they are claiming credit for all sorts of wonders. Yet there is no proof. People are told it's all there...somewhere, but when you go digging (and why do we have to dig at all when they should be eager to have it all up front?) it doesn't turn up. The best I've seen are reciepts for letters, the contents and reactions to which no one can tell or prove. Maybe it is true and we have hidden champions and maybe it is not true. That ambiguity is not enough or acceptable in my eyes. You'd think they'd be happy to provide total documentation and proof right there on the website and in this article. Scans of letters, etc. The lot. Same as Wikipedia would ask for at the very least. Why be shy about it when there's no reason to be and if this is really all true?

Beware those who will step into the marathon at the last ten yards and loudly claim they carried the crowd on their own shoulders.

Solid upfront proof of all of this is an absolute minimum requirement. Otherwise it's only repeating the same old fantastical claims that anyone could make. Glad to see that many others are asking the same sort of questions. NNS isn't here to blindly trumpet someone's claims of greatness without journalistic integrity and questioning coming into play and countering it. We wouldn't let Labour and the rest get away with doing that.

If I or others made claims to have done all this or similar then I'd fully expect the people here to be suspicious and ask for more substantial backing than my word. Goodness knows the Scottish people have been burnt too many times already by blindly trusting others (Jam tomorrow! Dead people voted no to independence!).

Please do listen to those asking questions. Just provide total documentation. Real proof and citations. At a minimum on the level of Wikipedia (which isn't the highest standard in the world even, but still better). It could only strengthen your case and help the movement if it is all done this way.
 
 
# Suomi 2012-02-18 17:04
I remember Dr Wilkies letters to the Scotsman and Glasgow Herald in the days when pro-independence supporters needed all the help that we could get.For that reason I am disturbed by the disrespect shown by some comments to an erudite academic who is a passionate supporter of Scottish independence.

I am not sure what the facts are but I do believe that people within and outside of the SNP enabled Scotland to gain Devolution.I agree with Dr Wilkie that devolution provided the platform to move on towards independence.As an SNP activist in the 1970's I also experienced a lukwarm response from Labour activists during the 1979 referendum campaign.I recall phoning my local labour regional councillor for help to be told that (on referendum day) he was in the pub playing dominoes with his mates.In our constituency,th e yes campaign was mostly what the SNP could muster.In my former constituency in the West of Scotland,I am informed that my Labour MP voted no.When we put this anecdotal evidence together with the facts,ie Labour allowed a 40% rule to mean that dead people and non voters were counted as no voters,we can see that the history of Labour is not so terific in respect of devolution.

I also believe that success in the independence referndum is dependent on more than the SNP (of which I am a member).Good luck to the SDA,greens,comm unist and socialist parties,plus many other groups.We will need them all to win.At this stage I am uninterested in attacking our allies,I want a broad base of support for independence.
 
 
# Exile 2012-02-18 18:57
Yes Suomi. Spot on. What I find hard to understand here is the rush to condemn the article as a man blowing his own trumpet, when I read it as an attempt to cut the Labour Party down to size and undermine their arrogant boast of being 'the party that delivered devolution'. They were dragged kicking and screaming into 'delivering devolution'. I've always assumed it was simply fear of the electoral potential of the SNP that drove them. But if Dr Wilkie's committee helped, perhaps in an essential way, then I say well done and let's now move on and take Scotland to freedom.
 
 
# Electric Hermit 2012-02-18 21:44
Quoting Suomi:
I also believe that success in the independence referndum is dependent on more than the SNP (of which I am a member).Good luck to the SDA,greens,comm unist and socialist parties,plus many other groups.We will need them all to win.At this stage I am uninterested in attacking our allies,I want a broad base of support for independence.


I tend to agree. But I must confess to being more than a little irked by those who seek to diminish the work done by the SNP. Particularly under Salmond's leadership.
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 01:47
Surely you don't think an erudite academic would be put out by requests for evidence in support of their claims?
Isn't that the proces by which one becomes an erudite academic?
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-19 07:47
Quoting Suomi:
For that reason I am disturbed by the disrespect shown by some comments to an erudite academic who is a passionate supporter of Scottish independence.


You do not disrespect an academic by asking him to provide evidence to support his hypothesis. On the contrary, the academic disrespects his audience by refusing to do so and having a wee tantrum when asked to do so.
 
 
# susanl1960 2012-02-18 17:22
Don't know if I'm being paronoid but is anyone else having problems when trying to view sites re independance? I've noticed this for a wee while now, been trying to get on www.realmofscotland.com but keeps coming up with a server error
 
 
# Exile 2012-02-18 18:58
You may be paranoid, susan, but that doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
 
 
# UpSpake 2012-02-18 17:52
Googled Realm of Scotlandm came up in an instant !.
 
 
# Leswil 2012-02-18 18:10
It would be gold for the referendum if some strong evidence backs it up.
It would shame the s/labour party after all their claims of "we created the Scottish Parliament" and we should be grateful. Well, yes. but not for the reasons they want us to believe. I am elated that there are people who have and continue to work hard for Scottish rights.
Let us all pool knowledge and work for a positive result. A whistle blower or two who are/were, knowledgeable about all the Westminster goings on at these times should speak out. They will be there, we need to find them.
What was done seems almost criminal, we need to get to the bottom of it.
Is there any way the documents that J.Straw is refusing to make public can be forced into the open?
 
 
# Leswil 2012-02-18 18:15
 
 
# susanl1960 2012-02-18 18:33
Thanks Leswil
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-18 18:57
Whilst this article has made an interesting read and poses some interesting questions, it really won't get the job done in 2014. It may well be that Labour weren't that interested in a strong devolved Scottish parliament and that Donald Dewar was instumental in that or that John Smith was ambivalent about devolution. I don't know and I don't think it an avenue worth pursuing.

The fact is we have a parliament and how it got to be here can be left to another day. There are far more readily available past examples of Westminster bending democracy available, such as the McCrone report. This parliament and this referendum should not be about the past but about the future. Lets leave the arguments about how we got here for historians and get our collective heads around what we do in Holyrood for tomorrow.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 19:04
"This parliament and this referendum should not be about the past but about the future. Lets leave the arguments about how we got here for historians".

Wholly agree - but I am a historian!
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-18 19:06
:D No rudeness intended oldnat. I might have guessed from the handle.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 19:26
I didn't assume rudeness for a moment. Historians are, however, trained to look for evidence when people make claims. I can find no supporting evidence for Wilkie's claims, and no one in this long thread has provided any.

I came across the realm of Scotland stuff some years ago, and was intrigued by it. I was rather disappointed to find not a shred of evidential support for the claims.

What is interesting, is the willingness of Wilkie's supporters to uncritically accept his words as the revealed truth.

Anyone interested in the psychology of that might want to have a glance at Robert Altemeyer's work on authoritarianis m, which he found to be more common on the right of politics.

en.wikipedia.org/.../... m

Altemeyer developed the concept of the "Authoritarian Follower". Folk might like to consider how far they are similar to this description of them "right-wing authoritarians tend to exhibit cognitive errors and symptoms of faulty reasoning. Specifically, they are more likely to make incorrect inferences from evidence and to hold contradictory ideas that result from compartmentaliz ed thinking. They are also more likely to uncritically accept insufficient evidence that supports their beliefs, and they are less likely to acknowledge their own limitations."
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-18 19:39
I see there is no need to do any caricaturing...
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-18 19:11
I think this whole squabble can be summed up in a word, jealousy. It's looks pathetic to say the least. As a life long independence supporter, it's not what I'd hoped to see.
 
 
# 1314 2012-02-18 23:39
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-18 18:11

"I think this whole squabble can be summed up in a word, jealousy. It's looks pathetic to say the least. As a life long independence supporter, it's not what I'd hoped to see."

And from oldnat's quote -

"They are also more likely to uncritically accept insufficient evidence that supports their beliefs, and they are less likely to acknowledge their own limitations."

You present the single word 'jealousy' as reasoned argument against those who require evidence.
 
 
# exel 2012-02-18 19:39
James 2012-02-18 11:45
“I am not pretending anything. I am not a member of the SDA's constitution committee and I have no personal recollection of any mention of martial law, which I would certainly have opposed. A number of external experts are presently working on the third draft of a Scottish constitution, which certainly contains no mention of martial law, so what is the point in bringing this up in the context of an article on devolution?”

Why James, do we need an article on Devolution during the consultation period of the “Referendum Debate”? We already have a devolved parliament at Holyrood.

It was never meant to work towards the people of Scotland gaining self determination. It was never meant to bring representative democracy to Scotland.

It certainly was not meant to produce a party majority “executive”, other than a Labour one.

So does it really matter WHO WAS TO BLAME.

This article is simply another try at getting DR. J Wilkie and his couple of sycophants some publicity in the run up to the local elections.

You have already insulted the Scottish people by going behind their backs with the recent "Memo"

Submit your plan for Scotlands Constitutional Future to the Scottish Parliaments consultation and await our verdict.
 
 
# maisiedotts 2012-02-18 19:58
Quoting exel:
You have already insulted the Scottish people by going behind their backs with the recent "Memo"



I disagree, I wasn't "insulted" so please don't speak on my behalf.

The memo was both needed and an obvious move to any with the good of Scotland and fair and open democracy in mind.

Clearly it would not have been a good move for the party in power at Holyrood to make, but an outside organisation was certainly ideally placed to complain.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 20:03
I wasn't insulted either. Such a request from Siol nan Giadheal, The Free Scotland Party, the Scottish Jacobite Party, the Scottish Christian Party wouldn't have insulted me either - nor would I have been insulted if the WRI had sent such a memo.

I would only be insulted if any of these organisations tried to pretend that such a memo had any practical effect.
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-18 20:39
Quoting oldnat:
I would only be insulted if any of these organisations tried to pretend that such a memo had any practical effect.


I'd have some respect for your attack if you had any proof that it didn't.
 
 
# 1314 2012-02-18 23:41
Proving a negative is always hard going.
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-19 00:10
Aye, right
 
 
# exel 2012-02-18 21:19
maisiedotts 2012-02-18 18:58
"Quoting exel:
You have already insulted the Scottish people by going behind their backs with the recent "Memo"

I disagree, I wasn't "insulted" so please don't speak on my behalf."

I do apologise Maisie, I should have qualified my statement, “In My Humble Opinion”.

As to your statement, it should be similarly qualified.

I do not seek to speak for anyone, let alone a “Whole Nation”
 
 
# maisiedotts 2012-02-18 23:23
[quote name="exel
I do apologise Maisie, I should have qualified my statement, “In My Humble Opinion”.

As to your statement, it should be similarly qualified.

I do not seek to speak for anyone, let alone a “Whole Nation”

In no place did I claim to speak for Scotland or anyone other than myself, someone who has made countless complaints to BBC. So I do not need to qualify my remarks as they were purely based on my own experience and made no claim for others.
 
 
# maisiedotts 2012-02-18 20:21
Perhaps I should state where I stand. I am not a member of the SNP or any other political party, but have been a lifelong supporter of Independence for Scotland.

Having said that, I have for the first time in my life considered joining the SNP ............ until today. I would not wish to be associated in any way with those whose spiteful, virulent comments I have read on here.

So sadly I will not be joining the SNP and will retain my objectivity without joining any party.

Well done guys.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 20:31
Objectivity is a good thing, and should always be maintained. Parties are transient organisations which exist to elect one group of politicians instead of another lot.

As long as people vote for independence, that's the main thing. However, all politicians should be treated with a measure of suspicion - Wilkie, Salmond, Cameron, Lamont etc etc.

None of them should be permitted to make statements without being challenged on them.

Anything else is a denial of democracy.
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-18 20:32
Quoting oldnat:
Objectivity is a good thing, and should always be maintained.



Yes, it should...
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 20:37
Which makes your acceptance of Wilkie's statements without critical analysis somewhat strange.

It's not that hard. Politicians exaggerate their importance - especially if they have achieved nothing.

Back up Wilkie with objective evidence, or accept that you aren't viewing his statements objectively.

See? I isn't that hard.
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-18 20:58
You've no proof that he's wrong, or you would have submitted that, correct.

So, it looks like the big fuss is personal.
That's fine, but it doesn't look very good. (My original point.)

Continue to patronise me all you like...
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 21:13
I have no proof that he is right - which is the entire point.

You appear to think that anyone can make any claim they like, and unless they can be proved wrong, they must be right.

That's a very strange way of interpreting the world, but for those who want to believe their leader regardless of any facts - not very surprising.
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-18 21:50
Quoting oldnat:
You appear to think that anyone can make any claim they like, and unless they can be proved wrong, they must be right.

That's a very strange way of interpreting the world, but for those who want to believe their leader regardless of any facts - not very surprising.


No, you have assumed that about me. (Nice of you)

Assuming I am stupid might make you feel big, but that's what's putting the other posters (and doubtless many other readers) off.

My point is if the public starts to question their assumptions about what the Unionist/Westminster machine tells them, because they see there is another version of events, that is a good thing. To spoil that, by blackening, without proof, this additional information, because of some urge born of a chronic pedantic itch, is deliberately undermining that, and that is unintelligent.

I make up my own mind, and the public will do that too, if you just let them.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 22:01
No one is trying to stop Wilkie making his points. That Newsnet has given him a forum is excellent. People (including me) can then look for evidence supporting his view. When we can't find any, we are entitled to ask why.

I am a member of the public. I've been questioning "the Unionist/Westminster machine" for 52 years. Trying to sell the public a false prospectus is wholly counter-productive.

Without supporting evidence, any such attempt will be exposed, and make the independence case less believable.

I have no doubt that James Wilkie wants independence as much as I do, but bad tactics and misleading information hinder, not help, the cause we both share.
 
 
# Soixante-neuf 2012-02-19 01:19
Oldnat, I went round all of this about four years ago. There was nothing to substantiate Wilkie's claims then, and there isn't now.

It's not for us to prove his claims wrong, it's for him to prove he's telling the truth. If I said I had walked to the South Pole, would everyone feel they had to believe me and start congratulating me on my great achievement unless someone else could prove I hadn't done that? Of course not. If would be for me to prove I had done it.

There is no more proof of Wilkie's claims than there is that I have walked to the South Pole. It's an attractive conspiracy theory, and people tend to believe what they want to believe, but for goodness sake I'd like to see a bit more critical thinking around here.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-19 01:32
You walked to the South Pole! Fantastic - what an achievement! Can we set up a statue to you?

You don't need to give me any proof. You are a glorious example to our nation, and that's good enough for me.

Those who suggest that you haven't been south of Monte Carlo are just jealous.
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-19 22:46
No, you are wrong.

Wilkie's article is already open to analysis, it's sitting on a website. We are not all gullible enough to lap it up without a think (oh, except me, of course).

Engaging in this overtly judgmental and persistent nay saying however calls into question your credibility more. You seem adamant to advance that his article should not be acknowledged, be dismissed, as basically false, without offering any basis for your thinking that to be the case. This reaction is quite unnecessary, and uncalled for. We don't assume it is all entire fabrication, either, without some reasoning.* You are suggesting he just made it up, because you’ve seen no evidence.** Well, then come up with a better justification, or you look like the man with a grudge to bear.
*So you crossed the line into biased
** A line of pursuit I have to say that comes across as extraordinarily arrogant
 
 
# Electric Hermit 2012-02-18 21:56
Quoting Kangaskhan:
You've no proof that he's wrong...



That is nonsense. It is for the person making the claim to substantiate that claim. There is certainly no onus on anyone else to "prove" the non-existence of the evidence that should have been presented along with the original claim.
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 02:01
I'm the leader of SuperDuperAlien s, a secret cabal who exercise great power we cannot yet reveal to you.

Prove me wrong
 
 
# maisiedotts 2012-02-18 20:40
I wasn't aware that James Wilkie was a politician can you enlighten us? Proof would be good.
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-18 20:47
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 21:09
Can you tell us who wrote that article? From the links it appears to have been James Wilkie himself, but I'd appreciate clarification.
 
 
# Soixante-neuf 2012-02-19 02:04
Oh for goodness sake, I couldn't get a quarter of the way through that without peeing myself laughing. I don't think I ever saw a more bombastic piece of trumpet-blowing by someone with so little to blow it about.

My opinion of Wilkie, which was already in the sub-basement, just went down a lot further. Deluded fantasy rules.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 20:55
He is Chairman of the Scottish Democratic Alliance - registered with the Electoral Commission.

Edit Sorry forgot the link

en.wikipedia.org/.../...
 
 
# maisiedotts 2012-02-18 21:35
Quoting oldnat:
He is Chairman of the Scottish Democratic Alliance - registered with the Electoral Commission.

Edit Sorry forgot the link

en.wikipedia.org/.../...


He's not mentioned on the link you gave.

Even as chairman should he be considered a politician? I tend to think of politicians as active politician's ie MPs MSPs etc otherwise anyone interested in politics, party members, holding office within a party etc could be called a politician whilst having no real political power.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 21:47
Indeed that depends on how you want to define a politician. In your definition, he holds no elected office. Even within the SDA he holds no elected office, having been "invited" - by whom is unclear - to be their leader.

That he is chairman of a political organisation with a specific political programme would make him a politician in my book.
 
 
# maisiedotts 2012-02-18 22:10
I wouldn't consider him on par with the others ie Salmond, Cameron or Lamont who you quoted, who are all elected members to a legislature.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 22:12
I wouldn't consider him on a par either!
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-18 20:51
Very much agree oldnat. Much like maisiedotts above, I am a member of no party but very much a supporter of independence. Whilst I see a lot to applaud in the way the SNP have conducted themselves in government, I have healthy distrust of politicians in general. Maybe just too old to toe the line completely, heh! I think its a healthy thing too if they are made aware quite often that they are being watched and judged on their conduct.
 
 
# GrassyKnollington 2012-02-18 20:50
maisiedots, blogger James Kelly made a rather astute observation a couple of days ago on SCOT goes POP

He pointed out that the reason online comments which some may find offensive are never "disowned" by the SNP is because they were never "owned" by them in the first place.
 
 
# maisiedotts 2012-02-18 21:40
Quoting GrassyKnollingt on:
maisiedots, blogger James Kelly made a rather astute observation a couple of days ago on SCOT goes POP

He pointed out that the reason online comments which some may find offensive are never "disowned" by the SNP is because they were never "owned" by them in the first place.



Is that the George Robertson one? It's good and very pertinent, thank you!
 
 
# Jake62 2012-02-18 20:57
Agreed, Maisie.

Sensible scepticism is well and good, but there's an undercurrent of vicious nastiness here today which is disturbing and unwelcome. I'm in the same position - never been an SNP member, but have been considering it recently to push the indy campaign along. However, some comments here remind me more of tone of Labour Hame than the what I'd expect from the SNP, and that's off-putting.

Jake
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 02:04
When you say an 'undercurrent of vicious nastiness', does that mean you would or wouldn't be able to point to some evidence of vicious nastiness?
 
 
# Jenny2603 2012-02-18 23:46
Maisiedotts,
A political party is only as good as it's members. If good people don't join then...well you've seen the wreckage of the Labour Party in Scotland. Like it or not the SNP are the largest though by no means the only pro-indy force in Scotland at present.

The SNP currently has in the region of 20,000 members, only a tiny fraction of them comment on this site. Why let such a tiny minority influence you? Sure as a party member you'd be associated with them but you'd also be associated with so many decent people. The world is far from perfect and political parties even less so, all we as individuals can do is our best to make things better.

As someone who has recently joined the SNP, for what it's worth I'd be delighted to have you you as a fellow party member. I'm not writing in any official SNP capacity and as far as I am aware neither are some of the more negative commentators you refer to. I'm not telling you to join the SNP, all I'm asking is that you at least take into account that there are a whole range of people who are party members when thinking about it.

Like you I'm pretty depressed at how this thread has gone, when I read the article my first thought was -how do we collectively force the UK government to release the papers on the background to devolution? Not what can I say to make James Wilkie appear foolish. That doesn't mean I uncritically accept his take on events but nor does it mean I think he can be dismissed out of hand.

Anyway, rant over.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-19 00:06
Of course he can't be dismissed "out of hand". No one is doing that.

He made a claim about the critical role played by him and the S-UN Committee in bringing about devolution.

We'd all like to be congratulate them, if that was what happened. All that is being asked for is some evidence to justify that.

If evidence isn't required, then can I claim that the letters I wrote to the Herald in the 1970s were the critical factor, and my statue should replace Donald Dewar's? :-)
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-19 00:17
Quoting oldnat:
then can I claim that the letters I wrote to the Herald in the 1970s were the critical factor, and my statue should replace Donald Dewar's? :-)


Getting nearer the truth all the time...
 
 
# maisiedotts 2012-02-19 10:09
Much my thoughts Jenny it is extremely sad that they don't remember the words of a man I do respect who said "we don't have a monopoly of wisdom" one might have hoped or wished for simply a monopoly in tolerance.

I'd be happy to join any group who actively sought the truth.
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 01:59
So, you considered joining a political party for the first time in your life, and then decided not to because you didn't like (one side apparently) of the comments in a web-page thread by pseudo-random individuals.

Oh.

btw - (I disagree with oldnat below) objectivity is an illusion, the best you can hope for is some awareness of your own subjective filters.

Before you think I'm being snide and casting your post as mere histrionics, I myself have been influenced by website comments.
While I don't comment anything as much as I used to, I still read many websites and associated comments, but the steady trickle of SDA bulletins on NNS is sorely testing my attention with this site.
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-18 20:42
Censoring posts even after they have been put up is a denial of democracy, no?

The truth always matters...not on here!

(Will this see the light of day)
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-18 21:06
Great. I've saved them all and that's maybe more than 50% of my posts up.
 
 
# snowthistle 2012-02-18 21:55
Hi Kangaskhan,
I don't know if you are a new poster?
New posters stay in pre moderation for a few weeks so it might take a while for your posts to appear.
I was caught out with that when I first joined.
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-18 23:29
Thanks. I was just going to post almost all of them are up now, except I think two. The ones that had replies to them seemed to get through first? Maybe it was the modding.
 
 
# mealer 2012-02-18 21:30
Who can I email about the Freedom of Information request being denied?
Thats the important bit here.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 21:53
 
 
# Jenny2603 2012-02-18 23:14
Exactly Mealer- very well said. There is absolutely no point at all in people here arguing or demanding proof from James Wilkie when the evidence that will prove or disprove his case is held by the UK government. Our energies would be more productively spent trying to get the papers released, yes they can keep refusing but why make it easy for them?
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 02:11
If the only evidence that can support the article is acknowledged as being held by the UK govt, then perhaps the article could have simply been framed in that way.

'We need your help! Here's what happened. Get in touch with Her Maj's Govt o get th info released'

Presumably, Mr Wilkie and more latterly the SDA have been making great representations to get the info released in the intervening period.
They should pass along information about all the various representations they've made to free up this information so that interested parties can add them to their own request for added context.
 
 
# cynicalHighlander 2012-02-18 21:43
Attorney General blocks release of devolution papers: scotsman.com/.../...

Quote:
Former justice secretary Jack Straw exercised the veto on both previous occasions it has been used.

Most recently, in December 2010, Mr Straw blocked the release of Cabinet minutes on talks about devolution dating back to 1997.

He said at the time that collective Cabinet responsibility meant it was in the public interest for the papers to remain unreleased.

In February 2009, Mr Straw vetoed the release of Cabinet minutes relating to the Iraq War.


Devolution and Iraq war in the same boat. Are they both illegal?
 
 
# Islegard 2012-02-18 21:44
I'm an SNP member and I'm a bit baffled at the constant attacking of the SDA. Can someone explain it to me. As far as I see it the more groups fighting for independence the better.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 22:10
It's not a matter of "constant attacking the SDA". I'm happy to see the right wingers of the SDA and the left wingers of the SSP, and everyone else in between supporting independence.

There is a problem when any group makes unsubstantiated claims. That weakens the whole independence argument.

If we, on our side of the constitutional debate, can't find substantive evidence for Wilkie's claims, then how will that be portrayed if SNP members accept them without question?

Constant repetition of an untruth has been tried regularly by parties of all complexions. Seldom with good results.
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 02:15
I'm not a member of the SNP or SDA (or any other party).
I don't see any 'attacks' on the SDA. I do see some people questioning why a political party (that's currently a think tank), doesn't expose their beliefs to public test by standing at elections (as political parties do), but spend so much time on this particular site telling us all about themselves and the wondeful things they do.

If a political party has a message - Tell the electorate at large!
 
 
# scotsmanc1 2012-02-18 22:14
It is not good for a relatively newcomer to this site to see what appears to be old sores opening up on this thread today, which have been generated by a minority.

Newsnet Scotland is an excellent forum growing in significance, popularity, and importance in terms of objective discussion without rancour.

The success so far of the SNP and those who have supported independence like me, has been generated by the need to maintain and demonstrate a unity of purpose. There are plenty who will seek to divide and rule the Independence camp without some contributers here making it easy for them.

The self proclaimed experts who regularly contribute on this site know who they are.

It seems to me that if the main protaganists of creating unhelpul divisions are not careful, their contributions will lead to an outcome which can 'snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2014' What a turn off today's divisions have been.
 
 
# snowthistle 2012-02-18 22:19
I don't believe that we can just accept things though manc1. Lord Foulkes has already been all over Twitter rubbishing these claims and demanding that 'cybernats' provide proof, which is exactly what we would have done had the shoe been on the other foot.
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 02:18
I agree, unity is indeed a very powerful ally (as long is it is a natural unity), as is the ability to back up assertions with evidence.
 
 
# Talorcan 2012-02-18 22:18
Boy, some of you people really have it up your humps about James Wilkie.I can't believe the bile. What's the big problem with you Oldnat? It's as if something is eating you. You seem to be criticising James Wilkie for self aggrandisement and egoism, but I really think you believe that having worked for the SNP in the 60s makes you some kind of elder Guru. I remember the 60s too, and I remember this level of criticism being levelled at Wendy Wood. Most of it seemed paranoid to me and I'm pretty sure there were some deeper hidden reasons for those attacks. Best I think if everyone just goes off line for a while and relaxes. We're certainly not winning any votes for independence with this sort of nit picking.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 22:23
Asking for supporting evidence isn't nitpicking.

All Wilkie and his supporters need to do is to provide the supporting evidence.

What's so hard about that?
 
 
# Jake62 2012-02-18 22:54
Sorry oldnat, but I don't think anyone has a problem with your scepticism, it's the apparent underlying grudge that is mystifying and somewhat disturbing.

What's the history, please?

Jake
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-18 23:34
Agreed, Taloracan.

This stuff really paints the SNP and support for independence in a bad light. As if we haven't got enough problems with our enemies!
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 00:53
Enemies ?! Who are they? Did a war break out?
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 02:35
You could also say that explosive but unsubstantiated articles also paint support for independence in a bad light.
As if we havent got enough problems...
 
 
# Electric Hermit 2012-02-18 22:28
This topic seems to have stirred up a bit of a stooshie. Which is OK.

Personally, I have never accepted the notion that devolution was Labour's gift to Scotland (and Wales). But I am also more than a little dubious about the claims made for the efficacy of the Scotland-UN Committee. I don't doubt that diverse political forces were at work in the lead-up to devolution. And I am happy to give credit wherever is is due.

But today we stand on the verge of realising the independence to which most of us here aspire. And there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the proximate cause of this happy circumstance is the Scottish National Party under the leadership of Alex Salmond and his team.

Ultimate causes are for academics. Right now we need to recognise that it is the SNP that will be the agency through which we will achieve restoration of our nation's rightful constitutional status. Without question, others have played a part - and will continue to do so. But political ends are achieved by political means through political processes. And the party political process is the only game in town.

This is no time to be squabbling about who will carry the baton over the line. Surely none will deny that Salmond has earned that right.

This is not to say that Salmond and/or the SNP must be beyond criticism. It is merely to say that we should leave the petty sniping to our political enemies and lend the fullest possible support to the undoubted champions of our cause - even if some of us have to grit their teeth a little while doing so.
 
 
# manxbhoy 2012-02-18 23:46
As an oldie, I can confirm the first part of this article. I read and subsequently collected/kept "Radical Scotland" since the early 1980's. Yes The CSA bagan there,. Yes The Scotland-UN cmte was mentioned a few times but sadly The magazine ceased production in 1988 and i have no way of verifying from that particular source wether it did achieve anything. However, and I hope you are reading this Mr Foulkes, There Has to be some reason as to why dom. greive is sitting on this file. and if its supposedly "National Security" as regarding Iraq, just which of the twa NATIONS on this mainland would be compromised by its publication. This whole matter stinks to high heaven.
 
 
# snowthistle 2012-02-19 12:17
I asked Mr Foulkes that self same question on Twitter and got no reply
 
 
# James 2012-02-18 22:37
Thank you for your courtesy, Maisiedotts. I had never in my life been a politician until I was invited to chair the newly-formed Scottish Democratic Alliance, which although registered as a political party is functioning as a think tank until further notice. Academically and professionally, I have over 40 years of experience at top government level of how an independent state of Scotland's size is run, and I have direct specialised knowledge of European integration and the various European institutions. I am currently a consultant to the United Nations, having carried out assignments in Africa and Asia as Rapporteur.

Never in my professional life have I had my qualifications and my integrity attacked as they have been in this column for no discernible reason. It is no wonder that so many of my professional colleagues are not prepared to subject themselves to the perfectly appalling abuse seen above. So even people who have spent their whole lives working for independence, who have risked their livelihoods, their families, their homes and even their lives, can expect to be treated in this manner by SNP members?
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 22:46
It would, perhaps, have been more courteous of you to have posted as James Wilkie, instead of just "James".

However, the criticisms still stand.

Why do you not produce supporting evidence for your claim that the S-UN Committee was the most important precipitating factor in bringing about devolution?
 
 
# Islegard 2012-02-18 23:05
Surely we extend courtesy to everyone. We don't decide who they are before we alocate a level of courtesy?
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-18 23:54
Exactly, Islegard. Caught out.
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 00:51
What discourtesy been served to James Wilkie?
A request for evidence?! Surely a 'Professor Doctor' would be all too aware of the need for evidence in support of any claims which are not already common knowledge and are otherwise unverifiable?
Anything less is, by definition, heresay.
I don't find that to be a suitable tool in arguing for independence - so, if someone wants credence on the back of claims, simply provide the evidence to support the claims.
It is painfully simple.
 
 
# James 2012-02-18 23:46
The most important factor was the Council of Europe, not the Scotland-UN Committee, except as instigator. That is perfectly clear from the article, wherein Scotland-UN disappears half-way through.

The central theme of the article is the suppression of all the official evidence of the CoE's role - that same evidence that you are asking me to produce before you will believe that the events described took place, although these are adequately documented in Hansard and elsewhere.

I use my full name everywhere. I made a mistake when registering with Newsnet by pressing Enter too soon, and I have been unable to change it since.

With that I will leave you to it.
 
 
# RandomScot 2012-02-19 02:32
Surely the Council of Europe has the requisite evidence, unless they are supressing it too?

Approaches made, discussions held

if such things exist, they will have their copies
 
 
# Electric Hermit 2012-02-18 22:50
Quoting James:
...I will keep a copy of the perfect orgy of uninformed vulgarity above for lecture purposes, to demonstrate one of the major factors working against the SNP's independence project.


If your background is as you state - and I have no reason to doubt it - then one might have thought that you would be better able to deal with challenges to both your views and your authority. Or perhaps caricaturing those challenges as "vulgarity" is your preferred method.

Regardless of that, your effort to blame the SNP for the supposedly offensive utterances of anonymous contributors to an online comments facility is just ridiculous. And well worthy of the kind of puerile smear attempts favoured by the less intellectually acute among anti-independence propagandists.

I would point out that there is an edit facility for your own comments. You might be grateful for it when you regain your composure.
 
 
# tartanfever 2012-02-18 23:07
At any rate, I will keep a copy of the perfect orgy of uninformed vulgarity above for lecture purposes, to demonstrate one of the major factors working against the SNP's independence project.

Do you really think that the postings of 20 people or so really demonstrate a 'major' factor ?

I think if you were to lecture on such an issue with a core reply of that number could be regarded as foolhardy.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-18 23:45
Quoting James:
Never in my professional life have I had my qualifications and my integrity attacked as they have been in this column for no discernible reason.


I've not noticed anyone attack your qualifications (unknown) or your integrity (equally unknown). I have seen people ask you to provide evidence for an extraordinary claim. You don't seem able to. Understandably, people wonder why.

Quoting James:
So even people who have spent their whole lives working for independence, who have risked their livelihoods, their families, their homes and even their lives, can expect to be treated in this manner by SNP members?


I'm intrigued: how do you know who is an SNP member and who isn't?


Quoting James:
If the SNP cannot keep this disgraceful behaviour by its adherents under control, then it stands a good chance of destroying the referendum by its own efforts.


This is not an SNP website, nor would I expect any political party to a) keep track of any online persona of any of its members or b) attempt to censor them on third-party websites. Come to that, I wouldn't expect the SNP to consider asking for evidence of an extraordinary claim as 'disgraceful behaviour'.

Quoting James:
One of the reasons for the SDA is that there are people who are in favour of independence but who will not vote for the SNP under any circumstances, and it is necessary to provide them with an alternative..


If that's one of the reasons for the SDA, then why doesn't it field candidates who can be voted for? You're clearly not providing an alternative to anyone, nor is an alternative necessary for people who are in favour of independence: they can happily vote for independence in the referendum without ever having to sully their ballot paper with a vote for the SNP.
 
 
# alisdair 2012-02-19 19:57
jIGGSBRO, thank you for one of the most comprehensive rebuttles I have ever read, more power to your pipe Sir/Madam!
 
 
# ratzo 2012-02-19 00:00
"My full title, by the way, is Professor Doctor." That is indeed an impressive title. Have you ever worked in a university, e.g. taught undergraduate courses, set exams, won research grants, that sort of thing? Basically - any of the things that people in Scotland would normally expect that someone who has that impressive title? I only ask because the otherwise quite detailed biography of you in Electric Scotland indicates that you passed your PhD but worked as a high school teacher rather than a university professor.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-19 00:10
"In Austria, professor is the most prestigious of almost twenty professional titles that can be awarded by the country’s president. In other countries, such recognition is shown by giving people medals or membership in orders of merit, and that is also done in Austria where there are more than a dozen different types of national orders that award medals, six of them with different levels, a total of 40 positions on the ranking list".

quezi.com/12181
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 00:58
What 'appalling abuse' are you referring to?

And for what it's worth - with a referendum in the offing, pro-independence supporters who don't like the SNP don't need to vote SNP - they just vote yes. Also, if you are motivated by concern for these poor members of our electorate, then why didn't you stand for election?
 
 
# Soixante-neuf 2012-02-19 02:28
Quoting James:
I had never in my life been a politician until I was invited to chair the newly-formed Scottish Democratic Alliance, which although registered as a political party is functioning as a think tank until further notice.



Really? What about the "Scottish Enterprise Party"? So similar that many people assume the SDA is that organisation which merely changed its name. You were in the same position in that outfit, I recall. Also "invited",
Comment edited by NNS Mod Team

Quoting James:
My full title, by the way, is Professor Doctor. Academically and professionally, I have over 40 years of experience at top government level of how an independent state of Scotland's size is run, and I have direct specialised knowledge of European integration and the various European institutions. I am currently a consultant to the United Nations, having carried out assignments in Africa and Asia as Rapporteur.



Comment edited by NNS Mod Team

Quoting James:
Never in my professional life have I had my qualifications and my integrity attacked as they have been in this column for no discernible reason.



Now that's just not true. You've been challenged in exactly the same way on numerous occasions in the past when you've made these same grandiose claims, and reacted in the same way - take offence and flounce off in the huff. I'd have thought you'd be used to it by now.

Quoting James:
It is no wonder that so many of my professional colleagues are not prepared to subject themselves to the perfectly appalling abuse seen above. So even people who have spent their whole lives working for independence, who have risked their livelihoods, their families, their homes and even their lives, can expect to be treated in this manner by SNP members?



Hah, what "professional colleagues"? *** *** ******** This is out of the same box as the companies that won't invest in Scotland due to "uncertainty over the constitution".
Comment edited by NNS Mod Team

Quoting James:
If the SNP cannot keep this disgraceful behaviour by its adherents under control, then it stands a good chance of destroying the referendum by its own efforts. One of the reasons for the SDA is that there are people who are in favour of independence but who will not vote for the SNP under any circumstances, and it is necessary to provide them with an alternative. At any rate, I will keep a copy of the perfect orgy of uninformed vulgarity above for lecture purposes, to demonstrate one of the major factors working against the SNP's independence project.



And you have proof that any of the pseudonymous posters here is an SNP member, how exactly?

Get used to it, Mr. Wilkie. Real academics understand the need to provide evidence for their assertions.
 
 
# Buddyh 2012-02-19 03:00
Hi James, I have read the report above and all the posts and you have stirred an interest in me. The only thing I really want to comment on is that not all SNP members are the same and not all attack or would be vulgar to anyone,please if you are going to use things in your lectures balance them out that thier are always people who react in negative and also positive ways, I have no axe to grind with you and would like to Thank you for your report.
 
 
# GrassyKnollington 2012-02-19 14:53
Quote:
If the SNP cannot keep this disgraceful behaviour by its adherents under control,


I'm sorry but that is precisely what I was trying to point out in my post above from James Kelly's blog.

The SNP does not disown comments on internet blogs because it does not own them in the first place.

For me the outstanding feature of this thread has been the wallowing in total over reactions.

It's a tough old world in cyber land and taking more offense than is warranted when asked for more proof as well as trying to drag the SNP into the argument does no-one any favours.
 
 
# Pictavia 2012-02-18 22:54
Another who is disturbed by the personal attacks on the author. Whether or not he has embellished his role is beside the point. What is obvious to me is that Wilkie's a genuine supporter of Freedom for our nation, that's all that counts in my book. The bitching should be put aside until after 2014. From a rather stunned long time party member.
 
 
# Electric Hermit 2012-02-18 23:00
Quoting Pictavia:
From a rather stunned long time party member.



What the hell does any of this have to do with "the party"? Nobody here speaks for the Scottish National Party in any official capacity. The only person posting in an official capacity representing any organisation is James Wilkie.

While I found his article interesting, I can't say I've been favourably impressed by his subsequent behaviour.
 
 
# Pictavia 2012-02-18 23:32
Okay point made adjust to "long time supporter of Independence/Freedom or Separation as its described by Brit Nats. The mention of "the party" was designed to indicate that not all members or supporters take the same negative attitude to James Wilkie
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 01:05
Perhaps you're confusing the 'negative attitude' with a request for some evidence to backup the claims made.
As I've said earlier - if you have some info (even if it's true) and you have no way of backing it up - it's just heresay.

Everyone who thinks that the contents of this article are likely to be true - go ahead and try to find the supporting evidence, then it's dynamite. Why the James Wilkie and the SDA haven't managed to produce it yet if it's possible to get it is another question, but people requesting evidence is not negative.
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 01:00
What bitching?
 
 
# Soixante-neuf 2012-02-19 02:18
Quoting Pictavia:
What is obvious to me is that Wilkie's a genuine supporter of Freedom for our nation, that's all that counts in my book.


What, even if everything he has written is a pack of lies? Which it just about could be, considering he provides no evidence for his claims.
 
 
# Pictavia 2012-02-19 21:37
And what, even if everything he has written is the truth. Which it just about could be, considering the refusal by Westminster to release important papers.
It is of zero importance to me if Wilkie has exaggerated his role or not. It is obvious that he has put time and effort into gaining freedom. Some here may wish to question and judge his effectiveness in turn I choose to judge their motives
 
 
# scotsmanc1 2012-02-18 22:59
Pictavia

Agreed. Those who prefer the continuation of sowing seeds of division is to me 'a timely reminder that some people never listen and others never learn'
 
 
# snowthistle 2012-02-18 23:02
I'm going to leave this thread now cos it's a little fraught for my taste but I do not believe that asking for proof is either a "personal attack" or "perfectly appalling abuse". People who make these claims should quote the posts they find offensive because, maybe, offence was not intended?
I certainly did not mean to cause offence.
 
 
# Electric Hermit 2012-02-18 23:09
Quoting snowthistle:
...I do not believe that asking for proof is either a "personal attack" or "perfectly appalling abuse".


Agreed.
 
 
# Islegard 2012-02-18 23:09
I would remind individuals who are here and complaining about what they hear. That they are hearing something they are not used too. DEMOCRACY. Someone compared it to Labour Hame but it's not. You wont hear difference of opinion on Labour Hame.
 
 
# maisiedotts 2012-02-18 23:57
Tbf that wasn't quite what was posted I think he was referring to the tone of the thread?

"some comments here remind me more of tone of Labour Hame "
 
 
# Jake62 2012-02-19 10:02
I did indeer refer to the _tone_ of Labour Hame. What concerns me here is those arguing for evidence (quite rightly I'll agree) but doing it in such an unecessarily belligerent and rude manner. What's wrong with polite requests, for goodness sake? Instead we get innuendo and veiled accusations, and apparent axes being ground. We're all toilers at the same coal-face, so let's try to be nice, please.

Well, enough for me today, I think. See you on the next, hopefully more pacific, thread.

Jake
 
 
# Islegard 2012-02-18 23:13
Again can someone educate me are the SDA right wing? Would our enemies like to see us squabling?
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-18 23:22
Have a look at their prospectus.

scottishdemocraticalliance.org/

Most people would describe "Slim government administration, with better provision for services such as health, education, social welfare and police provided by collaborative public, volunteer and private organisations at local level" as "right wing".

It's a perfectably respectable political stance to take.
 
 
# ratzo 2012-02-18 23:28
Without knowing much about them, my first impression was that the SDA would be a natural home for Scottish Tories who were not fundamentalists on the Union. As you say, a perfectly respectable position on the political spectrum.
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-19 00:03
Is your real reason for getting at Dr. Wilkie. Your offence at 'right wing'?
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 01:09
Where did you see any reference to him being offended at 'right wing'.
All that was offered was evidence (I know) that would support a contention that the SDA are (or would be, when they 'de-cloak') 'right-wing'.

Feel free to refute the contention, and remember to point me at the 'offence'. I imagine it will be difficult, given the last sentence of oldnat's post, but do have a go.
 
 
# ratzo 2012-02-18 23:13
"...I will keep a copy of the perfect orgy of uninformed vulgarity above for lecture purposes, to demonstrate one of the major factors working against the SNP's independence project."

Hope you're not offended by my curiosity, James, but do you lecture to undergraduates, James? If so, can you tell me in what subjects? I might add that I find it curious (and again I do hope you don't find this offensive) that you are an academic but seem to find that perfectly routine academic questions about the structure of arguments to be offensive to the cause of Scottish independence, and to you personally.
 
 
# sneckedagain 2012-02-18 23:14
Great stuff, James.

Now, the proof, please!
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 01:11
Indeed!
If it's supportable it's dynamite!
 
 
# Soixante-neuf 2012-02-19 01:34
He's been asked for that before. People have been asking for years, every time he surfaces to repeat his claims.

Don't hold your breath.
 
 
# Islegard 2012-02-18 23:16
Divide and rule.
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 01:12
What causes the division?
Who seeks to rule?

Who, on this site and in this thread, do you claim seeks to do either?
 
 
# Kinghob 2012-02-19 00:00
Almost hilarious seeing people pretending they were going to er, 'join the SNP today' but now won't because some other people have got a little over excited about how factual the claims are in this article-total bawbaggery.

I am quite sure labour needed a severe boot by many people groups and organisations to be dragged as they were kicking and screaming to the altar of devolution, and yes Europe was involved or would have been heavily involved had Blair and Brown not sorted out some minimal constitutional changes.

However a major reason for the Scottish Parliament being reconvened was that the lack of any kind of Scottish democracy (Scotland voted anything but tory for 19 years) after labour eventually were elected in 1997 would have led to the death of the union so this made labour a tad more keen to have a token nod towards constitutional change.

Remember that the original labour party had their first candidates sent to westminster from Scotland on a Home Rule ticket in 1922..........it only took them 75 years to deliver that and then it was with extreme reluctance.

Just think of the 250,000 people who turned up to wish these newly elected labour MWP's well as they boarded the train in Glasgow taking the hopes dreams and aspirations of the people who trusted them................then they became a british party and look at how that went!

There is absolutely nothing wrong with anybody questioning any article whatsoever on any subject matter or any claim..........personal slights are less welcome but jesus get a grip some people think they are the greatest thing to hit Scotland and get a bit up themselves, unionists or Independently minded they can be a bit too quick off the mark.

I am fine with the article but I do object to the writer implying that it is the 'SNP' to blame for those who are wary of whether it is totally factual or puzzled because definitive primary source proof of the claims are lacking (though I am not surprised considering how westminster is so secretive about the embryonic devolution talks).

Blaming the SNP for anything written here is what I call 'bawbaggery' (a word that I invented!) and sounds like an agenda rather than genuine grievance at some comments.

When you have been Independently minded as long as I have, you should be used to taking some flak and handle it as well.

Slainte

Kinghob
 
 
# maisiedotts 2012-02-19 01:00
Quoting Kinghob:
Almost hilarious seeing people pretending they were going to er, 'join the SNP today' but now won't because some other people have got a little over excited about how factual the claims are in this article-total bawbaggery.


Not quite! I find your remark extremely offensive as I am no liar. I have considered it for some long time, I don't "do" joining groups usually but this thread has put me off, it reminds me too much of everything I abhorr about Westminster politics. That doesn't give you the right to criticise my intentions. However at 65 I have voted for devolutionists or SNP candidates since '79.

Do you really expect everyone in Scotland who believes in Independence to join the SNP?? There are many like me who aren't group minded who will still vote for independence .... or are you saying we are somehow less important?
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-19 01:05
It doesn't matter whether people join the SNP or not. While they are currently the best vehicle to achieve an independent Scotland, the referendum will take place before any elections (other than the local elections - when choosing the best councillors should be the priority).
 
 
# maisiedotts 2012-02-19 01:27
Quoting oldnat:
It doesn't matter whether people join the SNP or not.


It should matter though; the fact that people on this thread are so intolerant of those that have different views to their own makes me doubt the quality of some of the membership.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-19 01:39
I'm certainly intolerant of those that make claims as to their importance in bringing about devolution, which suggests that all the rest of us were sitting around doing sod all of any worth.

Anyone making such a claim is due great honour - if they can demonstrate that their actions achieved what they claim.

If you don't agree with that, then can I visit you and sell you this fabulous bridge that I own which spans San Francisco Bay? You can have it for a very reasonable price, and you will make a fortune from the tolls.
 
 
# Soixante-neuf 2012-02-19 02:00
I'm very glad to see posters here challenge Wilkie on his claims. There comes a point when a fantastic claim is repeated again and again, and despite constant requests for evidence none is produced, that one has to conclude no evidence actually exists and the claim is bogus.

I came to that conclusion about Wilkie years ago.
 
 
# RandomScot 2012-02-19 02:16
If it is any consolation, I am skeptical about this and the SDA and I am not a member of the SNP nor likely to join them anytime soon.

It may have been imperfect, but if we believe this, then what was the point of the Constitutional Convention, for exampel, all those people leafletting and canvassing and polling anf working.

If all it took was Dr Wilkie and his wee letter

It's a huge claim to make, especially one with nothing to back it up
 
 
# Electric Hermit 2012-02-19 01:59
Quoting maisiedotts:
I have considered it for some long time, I don't "do" joining groups usually but this thread has put me off...


Any connection between the content of this thread and the Scottish National Party is entirely contrived by your imagination.
 
 
# maisiedotts 2012-02-19 10:40
Quoting Electric Hermit:
Quoting maisiedotts:
I have considered it for some long time, I don't "do" joining groups usually but this thread has put me off...


Any connection between the content of this thread and the Scottish National Party is entirely contrived by your imagination.


Don't be insulting EH, this site was one of very few where there was SNP news, there are many on here who claim to be SNP members. It is the lack of tolerance that alarms me. I will respond to you directly elsewhere!
 
 
# Electric Hermit 2012-02-19 10:49
Quoting maisiedotts:
Quoting Electric Hermit:
Quoting maisiedotts:
I have considered it for some long time, I don't "do" joining groups usually but this thread has put me off...


Any connection between the content of this thread and the Scottish National Party is entirely contrived by your imagination.


Don't be insulting EH, this site was one of very few where there was SNP news, there are many on here who claim to be SNP members. It is the lack of tolerance that alarms me. I will respond to you directly elsewhere!


You have no way of knowing who among those posting here is or is not a member of the SNP. Even if you did, we all contribute as individuals. There is no official party spokesperson here.

But if you are saying that you would be influenced in a significant decision by irrelevancies and trifles then we must take you at your word.
 
 
# Grenscot 2012-02-19 00:01
I have just finished reading this entire thread. As someone already said "what a stooshie".As far as I can see an academic has staked a claim for his place in the history of Scotland's road to independence. His claim has been challenged by a historian who has said, fine I have seen what you have written, now back it up with evidence. The academic has taken umbrage at not being accepted at his word given his impressive credentials. So we all agree to disagree and only time and the release of embargoed documents will decide who was right.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-19 00:12
"I have just finished reading this entire thread."

You have my admiration!
 
 
# Grenscot 2012-02-19 00:24
Thank you Oldnat. I try to do my bit for the old country.
 
 
# art1001 2012-02-19 00:23
Well said. I agree, take Mr Wilkie at his word and I am sure he will be vindicated when the full facts are unearthed and thank him for the article and his efforts.

I think that international pressure could have been the only way that London took the huge risk of devolution. While the SNP posed a threat it always seemed containable. Labour are/were never to be trusted. There is enormous international interest in Scotland now and I think a great deal of goodwill. Getting support from abroad will be a lot easier than it was in the past.
 
 
# alisdair 2012-02-19 00:29
Aye welcome to the world of academia, sheesh, this is not the time for point scoring, the whole my dad's bigger than your dad can wait. Let's concentrate on delivering true democracy to the Scottish people and the benefits it will bring. And then lets all enjoy the explostion and plethora of histories and personal memoires that come out.
 
 
# velofello 2012-02-19 00:29
Well, at least this irrational spat will have made one group of people happy today. Aye, the unionists.
"Ha ha , they've started fighting among themselves, they always end up doing so.
Like children - I saw it first. so it's mine".
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-19 01:05
Independence does not belong to any one political party or viewpoint, so it's hardly surprising if supporters of independence disagree on any number of issues. What is surprising is that the Unionist parties all now seem to agree on so many things.
 
 
# sneckedagain 2012-02-19 01:04
The SDA are a distraction, the choice of name far from felicitious and anybody with a serious and sensible interest and who wants to be in an organisation to achieve independence is in the SNP.
The SNP is an extremely broad church united only in a belief in Scottish independence. No person with this honest interest is turned away.
There are a number of persons who can't serve in any organisation unless they are in charge of it, or who can't show the sort of discipline that makes them a useful team player or who can't work with people they believe to be less able than themselves or, even worse, who are, often honestly, in organisations pretending to support our aims which have actually been designed by our enemies to effectively divide or damage us.

We only need the one organisation to drive the independence campaign and it is only safe and sensible to have only one.
 
 
# maisiedotts 2012-02-19 01:15
Quoting sneckedagain:
We only need the one organisation to drive the independence campaign and it is only safe and sensible to have only one.


Really? Doesn't that play into the hands of the Unionists who see Scotland turning into a one party state? That isn't healthy for democracy surely? Don't we need every vote for Independence no matter from which party and none? Does it really matter who drives the bus as long as we all arrive safely in one piece.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-19 01:23
On this, I'm with you. Happy to have the Greens, SSP, Solidarity, SDA, FSP and no doubt others working towards the same aim. That doesn't mean we can't have significant differences on what kind of Scotland we want to see - but those are decisions that democracy will sort out after independence.

In the meantime, however, we don't need to silence debate and allow any one person (for no particular reason, let's say Tommy Sheridan) claim that they get the credit for it.

The credit for where we are now belongs to everyone in every party, and none, who has fought to increase Scottish autonomy to the point where we have a Scottish Government that will mount a referendum on independence.
 
 
# Electric Hermit 2012-02-19 02:06
Quoting maisiedotts:
Does it really matter who drives the bus as long as we all arrive safely in one piece.



Surely the imperative to arrive safely and in one piece would have a critical bearing on who is chosen to drive the bus.
 
 
# maisiedotts 2012-02-19 02:11
Quoting Electric Hermit:
Quoting maisiedotts:
Does it really matter who drives the bus as long as we all arrive safely in one piece.



Surely the imperative to arrive safely and in one piece would have a critical bearing on who is chosen to drive the bus.

That's unworthy of you. In an emergency I doubt you would check a driver's license or insurance or ask him how many years he's been driving!!
 
 
# Electric Hermit 2012-02-19 02:52
Quoting maisiedotts:
Quoting Electric Hermit:
Surely the imperative to arrive safely and in one piece would have a critical bearing on who is chosen to drive the bus.

That's unworthy of you. In an emergency I doubt you would check a driver's license or insurance or ask him how many years he's been driving!!


We're not talking about an emergency. We're talking about what should be a carefully planned and executed campaign. For that, you appoint the best team you can get. Ask yourself this! Who has proven themselves in this regard more than Angus Robertson and the SNP?
 
 
# maisiedotts 2012-02-19 10:44
May I remind you of Alex Salmond's words?

"we don't have a monopoly of wisdom" A little humility on your part wouldn't go amiss.
 
 
# Aucheorn 2012-02-19 01:04
My daughter works in academia and whenever she writes a report or article for internal or external publication she has to quote sources.


I have read this thread with disbelief at times, some taking umbrage, some petty sniping, at the end of the day we all appear to want the same thing INDEPENDENCE.
We can ALL take what credit we wish then.
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-19 01:21
Having read a lot of 'stuff' on this today I have to say that even if there is no conclusive proof of what the article is claiming if I was serving as a juror on this I would be inclined to come down on the side of the author. The main reason for giving the benefit of any doubt this way is that in my, admittedly unqualified, opinion the burden of proof rests with the accuser and not the accused so unless and until all of the relevant documents are released(why are they being kept from the public?) I will give the author the benefit of the doubt.
I mean no offence to anyone who disagrees with me.

The extract below was what convinced me in the end.

THE SCOTLAND-UN COMMITTEE
Memorandum to the Council of Europe 1980

extract....
It was obvious to the Scotland-UN Committee that immediate action was called for to prevent
this mythology from becoming established at international diplomatic level. Even if other
countries were unable to help Scotland directly at that moment, the Scottish standpoint had to bepresented in order to counter the London misrepresentati on. It had to be made clear to every
international authority and national government that the actions of the British Government in
respect of Scotland were devoid of any constitutional foundation, that the day-to-day
administration of Scotland in defiance of a democratic decision by the country’s highest
constitutional authority now lacked even the merest semblance of legitimacy. While not
anticipating immediate reactions, the Committee considered it essential to keep the international
diplomatic ground in a state of constant preparedness for any action which the Scots might
consider it necessary to take at some time in the future.
Accordingly, a statement was prepared and submitted to the Council of Europe in the form of a
Memorandum by the Scotland-UN Committee. It was acknowledged by Secretary General
Karasek and circulated to the Council´s member governments. This paper was backed up by
informal contacts and discussions at diplomatic level, and there is little doubt that it succeeded in
totally destroying the effect of the deliberately false witness put forward by the UK delegation in
Strasbourg. The Committee supplemented this action shortly afterwards with another
memorandum to every individual member of the Assembly of the European Communities, and
with a pointedly worded Petition to the Queen.
This was the first and last occasion on which the British Government attempted to misrepresent
the Scottish situation at international level in such an open and formal manner. Their campaign of
misrepresentati on continued unabated but, having had their fingers burned in Strasbourg, their
future actions of this nature were carried on more cautiously and informally, and were countered
by the Scotland-UN Committee with the use of equally informal and sophisticated diplomatic
techniques. The text of the Strasbourg Memorandum is as follows:



Can be found here....

www.tsemp-c2.org/.../01.pdf
 
 
# RandomScot 2012-02-19 01:39
No

The burden of proof is on Mr Wilkie. he makes a claim that is unsubstantiated . A pdf on the Tonle Sap Environmental Management Project Web Site is proof of nothing

unless you can think of a link between the Tonle Sap Biosphere Reserve and scottish self-determination

Actually it looks like someone is using that server to stash documents on, rather than any agreement by the owner
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-19 01:58
I am unqualified but as I said if I was sitting on a jury I would give him the benefit of the doubt ( I take it we still have 'not proven' in Scotland as a verdict?)
I would add that I cannot believe that this is the first piece/article published on NEWSNET that had less than a perfect provenance but was still accepted for discussion.

In closing my involvement with this thread I will admit that perhaps my judgement is slightly slanted because I would like the story to be true and it does strike me as being all too believable albeit unproven.
 
 
# RandomScot 2012-02-19 02:14
No. He makes a claim he has done a thing by posting documents to a body

I can claim the same thing.

I posted documents to Santa Claus. He changed his delivery route because of me!

You see what I am driving at. Such a claim requires evidence before it is believed
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-19 02:23
So it's your fault I got no presents at christmas is it...thanks a lot.
 
 
# RandomScot 2012-02-19 03:43
No, in that case the presents WERE delivered!

But Norman Tebbit came through the window and stole them
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-19 12:59
Such a claim requires evidence before it is believed
 
 
# Soixante-neuf 2012-02-19 01:56
That is a memorandum FROM Wilkie's pals TO the Council of Europe. We can do him the courtesy of assuming they actually sent it as claimed. They may have a letter acknowledging receipt. Possibly.

Until we see some documentation not written by the claimants, nothing at all has been proved. Assuming the documentation was indeed submitted, it would appear the only outcome was that it was filed away. Whether in the round filing cabinet, we can only speculate.
 
 
# maisiedotts 2012-02-19 02:17
Quoting Soixante-neuf:
That is a memorandum FROM Wilkie's pals TO the Council of Europe. We can do him the courtesy of assuming they actually sent it as claimed. They may have a letter acknowledging receipt. Possibly.

Until we see some documentation not written by the claimants, nothing at all has been proved. Assuming the documentation was indeed submitted, it would appear the only outcome was that it was filed away. Whether in the round filing cabinet, we can only speculate.

You mean the UN letters in the NLS?

"Four letters from the United Nations acknowledging receipt of Scotland-UN appeals, 1980-1993."

195.153.34.9/.../...
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-19 02:24
No one has ever denied that S-UN wrote appeals, memos etc to all and sundry. It is normal courtesy to acknowledge receipt of these.

No doubt those advising that the world was about to end in Armageddon based on Inca inscriptions also received acknowledgement s.

I've even had acknowledgement s from the BBC that they received my communications.

Moving from that to a suggestion that the communications actually achieved anything, is a step too far - unless there is further evidence. That's all we're asking for.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-02-19 01:28
I think the tone of some of the arguments is not about personal attacks, but is more about disappointment that these facts have not been exploited to the full, even after a considerable period of time, as robust information.

The disclaimer at the end of the article seems to be saying that it not totally robust:

"It must be emphasised that there are still some gaps in the available information on the background to devolution."
 
 
# Soixante-neuf 2012-02-19 01:32
I will give Wilkie some small degree of credit in that he has been less offensive in this thread than he was to me when I asked him for proof of his claims back in about 2008. On that occasion he was so incensed by being asked to back up his position that he threatened me with legal action.

Now all I did on that occasion was note that none of the documentation he referred to contained any evidence at all that what he said was true, and ask him for some proof. For that I got a string of abuse and a threat of legal action.

Personal attack removed - NNS Mod Team
 
 
# Keef 2012-02-19 01:38
I said earlier if this information was true it would be absolute dynamite and could ruin the Labour party (Or what's left of it) in Scotland.
Before I go passing this information on I need proof positive of it's veracity.
I have not attacked James in any way. I, like Oldnat,have simply asked for proof. The more this goes on without proof the more doubtful I'm becoming.

It's potentially a great coup for the pro-independence movement. At present, without it being substantiated, that's all it is.

Keep up the good work girls and boys.

Yes to Independence.
 
 
# sneckedagain 2012-02-19 01:40
Of course I'm happy to have other parties who have other than independence as their main objective supporting independence. These will not divide us and I have to say that I believe that up to 40% for instance of Labour supporters will vote for independence.
But we only need one independence party and when it comes closer to the referendum we will need ONE all-Scotland pro independence organisation with members of all parties and none coming together to exclusively fight the independence cause on an agreed platform, not two or three outfits diluting and dividing.
The SDA is redundant now and will become more redundant when we get closer to the prize
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-19 01:54
Quoting oldnat:
I'm certainly intolerant of those that make claims as to their importance in bringing about devolution, which suggests that all the rest of us were sitting around doing sod all of any worth.


And that last bit is the bottom line, folks. As oldnat himself advises, maybe think about it before choose your leaders.
 
 
# mrbfaethedee 2012-02-19 02:57
No, the bottom line is exactly where it was at the start -
Show us some evidence
That's the bottom line, your opinion of oldnat is something I couldn't give a flying f*** about.
You're talking about picking leaders - in the the context of an unsubstantiated revelatory article by a senior figure in a (almost) political party?
Oldnat is an anonymous blog commenter!
Yet your beef is with his motivations rather than the problems that a lack of evidence in support of the article might cause.

Maybe you should think.
 
 
# Barontorc 2012-02-19 02:00
I've just spent too much time going over all this spat material and have to question what it's all based on?

Here we have, a forward impetus, the dynamic of which has never been seen before and will surely carry us over the finishing line - yet, we're embroiled in acrimonious points now reaching the stage of pissing-off some people. How can this be helpful?

I am cautious when it comes to the SDA, I've said so often, and yes, we must pull together to gain the future we want for Scotland and that, to my liking, would be under the direct auspices of the SNP. So let's get this sorted, isn't it time we had an official statement from the SNP about the previous workings and achievements of the Scotland-UN committee and what their official attitude is to the present SDA?

If the SNP are happy, I'm content with that.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-19 02:11
Why on earth should the SNP comment on the activities of the S-UN Committee. It has nothing to do with them.

If there was any evidence that they had actually driven forward Scottish autonomy in any significant way, then they might wish to comment.

That the SNP have totally ignored Professor Doctor James Wilkie's claims might give a clue that they see no political mileage in his claims - precisely because they have no substantiation.
 
 
# RandomScot 2012-02-19 02:42
James.

You have not been up front about who you are, though to be honest I thought you were Upspake.

But to revisit this discussion

newsnetscotland.com/.../...

You said
James
So you "know" that the SDA is in favour of martial law? Where did you read that? Certainly not on the SDA website


Deepwater said
James:

I certainly DID read it on the SDA website.

Just as certainly the website has been updated since I reviewed it last.


You replied
James 2012-02-12 01:19
Sorry if we crossed wires on this, Deepwater. I am not a member of the SDA committee on the constitution, which has now attracted several prominent specialists. Work is going on at the moment on the third draft, and any earlier layman's quality of work has long since been eliminated. Not being personally involved, I don't recall a mention of martial law, but I can readily take your word for it.



THEN, on this VERY thread, you say to Keef

# James 2012-02-18 11:00
Where do you get that notion from? There is nothing about martial law on the SDA website. The subject here is devolution.

That is disingenuous at best. Especially for the Chairman of the organisation
 
 
# Kinghob 2012-02-19 02:49
Miassiedotts,

I was mentioning how often I have read over the years that "I would have joined the SNP today but now due to this blah blah' it wasn't supposed to be a personal slight solely against yourself but an anecdote.

I do however object to the SNP being blamed for what individuals here (entitled as anybody else to their own opinion) may state or imply-that is a bit too kindergarten for me to take as valid. Surely the platform has been a positive aspect as I was unaware of some aspects of this article and the interventions involved towards making a contribution to devolution and now I have had to think about that more than I previously would have?

I also think that only choosing the perceived grievance of my words and selectively quoting the opening sentence sort of denied the fact that I gave a general supportive view of the article itself and mentioned other pertinent points at least as viewed from my own perspective..............................

Of course these other factors that are (at this moment in time) more provable as they are in the public domain, the intention of myself was merely to point out how ludicrous some people have come across with their faux outrage, I might do my own bit of digging on the whole pre-amble that led to the creation of a Scottish Parliament due in the main to this article so there is a positive!

A friend of mine camped on Calton Hill and had other camps in Edinburgh for six months (with others building up over years) as a protest to bring awareness for the need of a Scottish Parliament and stating a democratic deficit existed-(which most Scots acknowledged but didn't get off their arses to do enough about).

I delivered anything I could (leaflets newlsletters-standing outside polling stations in a suit with a rosette etc) and have given up my free time doing my part to raise awareness of the SNP and showing that in spite of the media they are a clever forward thinking political party and have been exactly what Scotland needs to gain Independence.

I have also blogged under the same moniker on political websites for the best part of eight or nine years.

Having said that, in comparison to many people, probably inclusive of the article writer, I haven't done enough and I am humble about that but we do what we can to pursue that which we believe in and who could decry anybody for their genuine efforts?

There has been a lot of sideline input towards self determination for Scotland over many years by many people most of them unknown and probably uncredited certainly at least on a national level-but every one of them mattered and the efforts of the author of this article (to my mind) are at the very least to be respected as being a part of that important whole.

Cheers
 
 
# Traquir 2012-02-19 03:01
Some interesting and heated debate here, which ultimately I think is a healthy thing. Bottom line Jim & a group of patriots did make substantial efforts to as part of a parallel peaceful campaign to protect & push for self-determination of our ancient nation. There is no denying their effort&passion here & this should be highly commended as should the efforts of countless others who have worked tirelessly over the decades to help get us to where we are. So praise for their endeavours is the minimum they deserve.

Now without full evidence claims as to what level of influence these efforts had in reconvening our Parliament from recess will remain debatable. So we need to be comfortable being at
an impasse until such time more top secret records are forced
out by the controlling Whitehall machine. It is a standard British power game to withhold evidence & worse release corruptions of the truth to confuse & frequently out right lie to the Scottish people. They did this with McCrone where not
only did they hide the potential effect of massive Scottish Oil Reserves on the Scottish nation, but in parallel told the most callous of lies (& still are) that the Oil is almost gone (since the 1980's apparently) & even if we had it we would be poorer with it.

Evidence based the only logical conclusion at this point would be Not Proven, much in the same way that despite much empirical evidence the denials of MI5 infiltration & deliberate undermining of self-determination remained Non Proven until such time as like McCrone the British were forced to release their records proving that this 'claim' was also fully factually.

Now that said were I a betting man, and I am :) , then based on the past history of the devious devils which are the British; the complete resistance up until then of modern Scottish Labour to restore our Parliament;the completely undemocratic situation of imposed Tory London Rule for 18 years running in the face of the basic principle of the self-dtermination of the Scottish peoples and now 1979 FOI requests are denied with the same intensity reserved for Iraq then my bet would be completely on Jim's Not Proven being converted to Proven as future British skullduggery is exposed.

As others have said on this thread we are all nationalists together here with the same peaceful goals to remove the grasping hands of London Rule from the throat of our nation.

Saor Alba

inflammatory statement removed. – NNS Mod Team
 
 
# 1314 2012-02-19 03:02
Och, isn't this great, a bit of a barney on NNS.

Too many points to consider, but I'll do my best.

James' main comment above is unworthy and, having read many of his interesting and informative letters in the Scotsman over the years, a great disappointment.

Some comments about his article are supportive or conciliatory, others argue a case, some are less than polite - although I notice that none were edited because of offensive language about either James or other contributors.

OLDNAT (who is hereby awarded a gold star for stamina) and others asked for proof, and so they should.

Let's suppose the SNP accepted James' word without question and went full throttle with press releases. Face proof on egg no - in any order you like.

Mad Jock McMad in an otherwise conciliatory comment, said 'you have issues with the SNP snubbing you' - meanng,as I read it, the SDA. James replied 'The SNP did not snub Scotland-UN'. Perhaps James would like to clarify.

And with respect to the absence in the article of the contribution made by the SNP (and others) to the cause of independence - Glass making, the electric heating of wires, the high melting point of Tungsten, the properties of vacuum and as many etcs as you wish were all known before Edison 'invented' the light bulb - shoulders I great of stand the men on - in any order you like.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-19 03:10
"OLDNAT (who is hereby awarded a gold star for stamina)"

More importantly, I managed to get some sleep, cook a huge pork curry, entertain visitors and plan out my spring gardening at the same time! :-)
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-19 03:14
The Sims is great, eh.
 
 
# 1314 2012-02-19 03:23
You're way behind. I plant my ingin seed on Christmas day. It's the only way to avoid the rabble, and the curried turkey.
 
 
# Grenscot 2012-02-19 16:09
Can I come for lunch?
 
 
# James 2012-02-19 23:20
1314 - I have made a brief return to the thread, and I see that you have asked for clarification. Let me assure you with all emphasis that at no time has the SNP snubbed either the Scotland-UN Committee or the Scottish Democratic Alliance (SDA). There was talk at one time of integrating S-UN into the party organisation, but it did not materialise. International diplomacy is a highly specialised field that needs special training, and when you try to bring it down into the marketplace you end up with something like the discussion in this column. Discreet diplomacy must remain discreet if it is to be effective. It was eventually decided that it was better that S-UN should operate independently, while maintaining contact and the best of relations with the SNP leadership.

Regarding the SDA, there was a bit of apprehension at first - on both sides - as regards "splitting the independence vote", but the necessity of having another purely Scottish political institution up and running to replace the unionist parties on independence day could not be overlooked. We know what we are doing, and we are not rivalling the SNP. Strategic planning started from the assumption that the SNP would take over Labour's slot on the centre-left of the spectrum, leaving a large gap on the centre-right post-independence.

We abandoned the centre-right idea after a brief but modestly successful trial run with the SEP (four-figure election votes). As more people with international experience became available, we set out on a completely new basis, with an emphasis on Scotland's future place in the global community, with no specific left-right orientation but with an emphasis on good management and plenty of original ideas.

The unionist parties can hardly be expected to have a role in an independent system that they have bitterly opposed, and there has to be an alternative to the SNP available. We are doing everything possible to support the SNP meanwhile (e.g. with the memorandum to the CoE and the OSCE on the referendum). I emphasised this support during my last discussion with Alex Salmond (whom I have known for decades) a month or two back.

That is the strategic situation. Now, as regards the more immediate issue, this article was written in response to the most recent decision by the English Attorney General to ban access to all information on the developments that led to the devolution projects in Scotland and Wales. Its purpose is (or was) to lead to a reversal of the suppression of the relevant facts and documents, by presenting the authorities concerned with a fait accompli - publish and be damned, if you like.

How far the comments on this thread will have assisted that aim I leave to your judgement. A wave of popular support would have gone a long way towards forcing the disclosure of the relevant information, but I fear that is now history. I find it strange that anyone should ask for "proof" of something when the article specifically states that proof is being deliberately withheld by the UK authorities. I know what happened, because I was there and took part in the process (as I hinted in relation to the 1993 European summit), and for that reason I know what is being withheld.

Another point: in the fifth paragraph I introduced the theme of the article as "one little-known ASPECT of the subject." The article was not about devolution in general, and it was not about the Scotland-UN Committee, which is mentioned only in the run-up to the main theme. It is about the role of the Council of Europe in the constitutional changes that took place in the UK from 1997 onwards, and Scottish devolution in particular. This singling out of one ASPECT does not play down the roles played by anyone else, nor is that intended. This can all be read out of the article itself, and I fail to see why there should be any controversy over it.
 
 
# Kinghob 2012-02-19 03:13
Quote:
Oldnat "The credit for where we are now belongs to everyone in every party, and none, who has fought to increase Scottish autonomy to the point where we have a Scottish Government that will mount a referendum on independence."


I absolutely agree with every word in the above quote (because it is that rare thing......the truth and crux of the matter-a rare thing to read anywhere this side of Chomsky or Gore Vidal )

Who could seriously challenge the words of Oldnat which are applicable to so many of the unsung?

Is there more still to do or can we playfully slap ourselves on the buttocks in the pro Independence shower room and feel good about anything until we have nailed that important YES in 2014?

I would say not............

Of course there is much more to do and cooperation is the key because the Independently minded do not have the media on their side, at least the 'traditional' media. The distinction and influence in modern times between traditional and online media is one that has changed the face of Scottish political discourse and voting practices in my humble opinion! Where's the article on that?

It is precisely how I have attempted (obviously unsuccessfully according to a few) to word my own humble havering on the matter but we have all done our bit and that is what a grassroots is all about surely?

The 'grassroots" I refer to pertains solely to that of the Independently minded Scot, whether a resident Scot by choice (someone who has chosen to locate in Scotland- could easily be English) or a resident Scot by birth.

We do our bit-we make our own humble efforts-and thus far we are seeing a very strained tired and desperate unionist mindset both in westminster and Holyrood kicking out blindly............that is something to acknowledge and understand as we build up our main argument towards a YES in 2014.
 
 
# Keef 2012-02-19 06:28
This article and the comments, seem to suggest that as there is a huge paucity of anti-independence rhetoric regarding the positive case for staying in the union. Cameron's feeble attempt not only confirmed this, it cemented it in the minds of the pro-independence movement.
No coincedence that we found time to have a dogged debate between ourselves. I'm pleased to see that this site still has a wide ranging and non compliant group of posters.
Yes to Independence.
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-19 10:01
There are still several of my comments lost in moderation, so it looks as though I had no comeback to the comebacks to my posts. Other comments I made though have appeared, hours and hours ago.

This apparent selective moderation server to neuter my argument while making a certain 'great leader's logic unfaltering.

I hope my comments make it out of moderation, as happened after my last query, but even so, the above consequence has skewed the situation since around 5pm yesterday, the time of my first lost comment.

Naturally I'll survive, however this doesn't make Newsnet look good, especially after all their exposing and criticism of the biased BBC.

If you have to hide comments to win an argument, you too NN will lose the respect of the Scottish public, who you so wish to court as your readers.

All new posters are placed in pre moderation until we get to know them. Moderators are all volunteers and sometimes it may take some time to get to your post. - NNS Mod Team
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-19 12:29
I am, and have always been, behind Newsnet and for independence. I try to inform friends and others about the whole picture where they have only been exposed to the Unionist media line. I am ambitious for Scotland and wish we had regained independence a generation ago because I see the results of Union rule, stagnation in our journey as a progressive modern thinking nation and know we would have been a generation ahead of where we are now. But I have hope for the next one.

Vote Yes.
 
 
# farrochie 2012-02-19 11:33
So, who got the Stone Of Destiny returned to Scotland?

Was it Robbie the Pict or Michael Forsyth?

Jist askin :-)
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-19 11:53
It was me. I wrote to the Rolling Stones and made them aware of the plight of their brother. I have to assume that Mick contacted Liz and sorted it all out.
 
 
# velofello 2012-02-19 12:03
So, having given Foulkes, Forsyth, et al a good night's sleep. Why not now consider the potential value of James Black's article.

The main thrust of yesterday's anguished posts was the demand for proof of what he had written. Such proof is held by the UK government isn't it?
So, the value of his article is not just the content but that the UK government is seemingly unwilling to disprove his claims.
Seems like a good propaganda tool to me.

O/T - Alex Salmon on Al Jazeera with Frost. " yes Queen of Scots, not of the land".
 
 
# RandomScot 2012-02-19 14:45
James Black? Who is he?

Anyway, no.

If the Council of Europe or any other body made representations to the UK Government then they would have that evidence.

If those bodies provided that evidence then would go a long way to putting our gas at a peep.

In the absence of such evidence (we received your letter is only evidence of receipt, not of subsequent action) we have to conclude that these are claims of amazing audacity, but ones unsupported by facts
 
 
# J Wil 2012-02-19 12:46
Some good my be had from this debate. If Foulkes and co try to use this as differences within the SNP, it will be out in the open and it will get wider publicity which it has not had before. There should then be a demand from the public for the truth to be told, whatever it is. There will be questions asked about the part of Labour in all this.
 
 
# handclapping 2012-02-19 13:44
It is good that we have had this piece and the arguments. When Labour try to campaign to "Save our Devolution" as they will as their part of the anti-YES movement, then we will have the knowledge to ask them "Was it really your Devolution?" as well as "If it was so good why did you need the Calman Commission?".

Well done NNS, more grist to the mill.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-02-19 18:48
@handclapping.

I am composing a letter in my head to my local paper to that effect this very moment. To be sent when the time is ripe.
 
 
# DBS 2012-02-19 13:57
Probably been viewed before but interesting, none the less, and sur
prisingly by the BBC.
video.google.com/.../
 
 
# exel 2012-02-19 14:32
Jenny2603 2012-02-18 22:46
“The SNP currently has in the region of 20,000 members, only a tiny fraction of them comment on this site. Why let such a tiny minority influence you? Sure as a party member you'd be associated with them but you'd also be associated with so many decent people. The world is far from perfect and political parties even less so, all we as individuals can do is our best to make things better.”

Personally I do not see any advantage in being a member of a political party.

In my opinion Political Parties are the root cause of everything that is anti democratic. I am not talking about the rank and file memberships, who are as you observe decent people.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-19 14:33
A political party is giving you the right to express your opinion on the future of your country, albeit that other political parties are doing their best to hinder you doing so.
 
 
# Jonny 2012-02-19 23:31
Quoting Jiggsbro:
A political party is giving you the right to express your opinion on the future of your country, albeit that other political parties are doing their best to hinder you doing so.


This strikes me as a strange way to think. Expressing your opinion is an inherent right, it's not something a political party can "give". Maybe you'd like to rephrase that?
 
 
# Kangaskhan 2012-02-19 15:13
No lost posts…yet, one I put through this morning is up.
?
 
 
# Seagetagrip 2012-02-19 15:32
Exel
I am sure you do! Think of what you are saving by avoiding contributions necessary to keep the Political Party going. This is, afterall, one of the things "decent people" do if they believe in what they, the Political Party, are doing.
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-19 15:46
Maybe there is no truth to the assertion in the article and maybe there is some truth but maybe if the UK government would allow the public to see what is / was being done in our name then we could all decide for ourselves. In the meantime its a case of he said she said. However when I consider the article in todays herald I do wonder what it is that is being hidden.....

here..

heraldscotland.com/.../...

The documents relate to the creation of devolution in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland at the outset of Tony Blair's New Labour government.


The Cabinet Office claimed the material is still so sensitive it could deepen current rows between the devolved governments and even spark new fights.

Exposing past splits could also embarrass some of those involved at the time, 12 of whom are now MPs, and 19 of whom are in the House of Lords.

Despite the objections, the Information Commissioner recently ruled there was a "strong public interest in disclosure in order to inform current and future debate on - devolution"

But Attorney General Dominic Grieve, a Conservative and the Coalition's most senior law officer, last week used the "nuclear option" under FoI law south of the Border to veto any disclosure by claiming there were "exceptional circumstances" involved.

The Sunday Herald has established the ultimate decision to use the veto was a collective one by the Coalition cabinet, taken after it had been briefed by Grieve – meaning that LibDems ministers were actively involved and supported it.

It was only the third use of the veto since FoI was introduced in 2005, and the first time that LibDem ministers have been party to it.

The two previous vetoes were both in 2009, when Labour Justice Secretary Jack Straw blocked release of cabinet papers on the Iraq War and later blocked the release of similar papers on devolution.

The latest veto covers the minutes of the Cabinet Ministerial Committee on Devolution to Scotland, Wales and the English Regions, which ran from May 1997 to June 2008.
 
 
# RandomScot 2012-02-19 16:24
This "nuclear option" on release of papers is known, but unfortunately proves nothing.

Yes it might be the killer blow that says we all owe the Vienna one an apology

It is more likely to be "Right, how do we give them the appearance of a devolved administration, but limit its abilities.

What trade-offs do we have to do to keep the LibDems on track

Let's have a big chat, Labour, LibDem and Tories"

My theory, equally unproveable
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-19 16:59
My theory, equally unproveable

I agree so the verdict has to be 'not proven'
 
 
# RandomScot 2012-02-19 18:56
No.

"Not proven" would require a shed load more evidence than is there

Sending letters to people is only evidence of sending letters to people

The gulf between that and reshaping the constitutional arrangements of a nation is way, way too vast to try and claim that there is anything to back up this grandiose claim
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-19 19:02
# RandomScot

With all due respect you do not get to decide for me.

I am leaving my mind open to the possibility that it could be true. I am not saying it is true .
I would never try to tell you what to think so please allow me the same courtesy and we can agree to disagree.
I somehow feel we have reached our point of disagreement on this subject and we should leave it there.
I respect your view and I am not trying to change your mind or tell you that you are wrong .
 
 
# Soixante-neuf 2012-02-19 17:00
[In the non-disclosed minutes] I suspect there might be quite a lot about how to keep Scotland's resources in "UK" hands, and continue presenting Scotland as being in receipt of handouts. Maybe a lot more about how to "diss the Nats".

It's interesting that discussions about a devolved Scotland in the 1970s seemed to assume a Scottish parliament would have control over oil exploitation and oil revenues, but of course no such responsibility was forthcoming.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-02-19 18:53
It is not surprising that it is not just the Labour Party who are in the firing line. It blackens the name of all unionist politicians.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-19 16:10
The Information Commissioner's report Parliament on the 2009 veto stated "in the event of a similar veto in relation to Cabinet materials being imposed in the future in advance of a Tribunal hearing, [the Commissioner] will not hesitate to seek Counsel’s advice with a view to challenging the decision".

Does anyone know if this veto was in advance of a tribunal hearing, or if the IC is intending to challenge the decision?
 
 
# UpSpake 2012-02-20 14:21
Realm of Scotland web-site up and running again for anyone interested ?.
 
 
# SJW 2012-02-20 18:41
I have never heard of Dr Wilkie nor any of the organisations that he may or may not be a member of. Having read this article and most of the comments I find some of it pretty scary stuff. Martial Law??
The one thing that is sadly missing is whats needed most....proof. Without proof this article can and no doubt will be used against independance by the so called unionist parties. Joe public would be very worried by some of the content and no doubt would believe those that will say this article is nothing more than a conspiracy theory.
I have first hand knowledge as to how or what lenghts the government will go to in order to supress something coming out that it does not want out. Really nasty people indeed.
I am just playing devils advocate here, as good as the story may be and the good it could do for independance it is nothing more than a story. Proof must be out there somewhere, there must be a paper trail but until its is found then the words raving nutter spring to mind as being used by the unionists. Joe public will believe this and it is he who has to vote.
 
 
# velofello 2012-02-20 22:00
Well I've just read through the Realm of Scotland report. Nothing scary proposed by the writer that I found.
Proof? Seems to me the obligation lies with the UK establishment to confirm the content of the Realm of Scotland or publish the cabinet meetings etc to disprove the article.
Why there has been so much ill-feeling expressed towards the writer(s) I do not understand but then I've never had any involvement with any of them so maybe there are personal unresolved tiffs.
In my working life I couldn't afford the luxury of liking or disliking people I had dealings with, whether staff or clients.
I would appeal to readers here, set aside your likes or dislikes.
United we stand or the Unionists will have a field day in developing division.
Its what they do best.
 
 
# Ard Righ 2012-02-21 12:00
"The question was answered by Tony Lloyd, who informed him that “the conclusions of the Committee of Ministers will be made public when available.” Thirteen years later, despite this commitment, there is still no sign of this information being made public, and there is total official silence on the subject."

An acquisition of documents is required. Sounds like a crack team of snails know exactly where to sequester the documents; needs to be put in motion.
 
 
# lochside 2012-02-21 14:32
Irrespective of the axe-grinding on here..surely the real myth is that Labour won the Referendum...wasn't it the 650,000 odd SNP voters that swung it?
 
 
# Electric Hermit 2012-02-23 12:44
Quote:
...if you take away or defeat the demand for independence, you take away or de-activate the engine which drives anglo-unionist parties to be devoted to devolution.


A more realistic history of "Scottish devolution and the Labour myth".

scoop.it/.../...
 

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