By Gerry Hassan, The Scotsman, February 18th 2012

Scotland has been all over the world news these last few weeks: the independence debate, David Cameron’s high profile intervention, and of course the saga of Glasgow Rangers FC.

What has been missing from the Scottish debate is an engagement with the wider environment beyond Scotland, both in relation to the UK and internationally. In times it almost seems as if the debate is being undertaken, irrespective of opinion, in a vacuum.

The prevalent Scottish debate amongst politicians, commentators and seasoned observers is to talk of Scotland in isolation. Whether unionist, nationalist or neither, many people embrace, often without understanding it, an ‘independence of the mind’.

This imaginary Scotland is a self-determining territory which operates without much relation to the British state. The crises of the euro zone and European Union go unstated. And even more fundamentally, the global economic crisis, and that of Western enlightened liberalism and social democracy, usually pass without comment.

There is a political subtlety and ahistorical nature in this. The journey Scotland is currently on, and which post-Cameron, everyone seems to be signing up to, of more powers and self-government, isn’t as many assume, cost-free.

Scotland in the union has had to undertake over the years a delicate balancing act between Edinburgh and London. Scotland pre-devolution, under numerous Secretaries of State for Scotland and governments has enjoyed quite a bit of clout in relation to Westminster and Whitehall. It had a Cabinet minister; it had a Whitehall government department; more importantly, it had political relationships and leverage.

Over the post-war period and particularly post-1979, this carefully balanced system began to break down. Scots saw their interests and wishes being less and less effectively addressed and dealt with.

This built up pressure for change and was a contributory factor in the establishment of the Scottish Parliament in 1999 which gave us a greater say over domestic policy. It also affected this balancing act, weakening the Scots voice and influence in London; the Scotland Office was diminished,  as was the standing of the post of Secretary of State for Scotland. More crucially, Scotland was basically forgotten across Whitehall, seen as having less of a British voice and being more detached and doing its own thing.

This set of dynamics of Scotland accruing more powers, but losing voice and power in the corridors of British government has to be factored into current debates. If we are to explore the prospect and detail of full fiscal autonomy we have to understand that complex trade-offs are at work here, and that such change would entail a fundamental dilution of Scottish status down south. This would happen formally with the continued reduction of Scottish MPs at Westminster, and consideration of ‘English votes for English laws’, but even more at the level of how British government departments worked.

Then there is the issue of how we relate to London and the South East, even if independent. Some anti-independence voices argue when will this Scottish debate ever end. The answer to this concern is that part of this debate is about how we deal with the UK as a deeply unequal, unevenly developed society, and central to this is London and the South East.

Even an independent Scotland would have a relationship with the world city London and South East. We will always have to face living on the same island the challenge of how we relate to London and prevent wealth and power being over-concentrated in it. This is part of what implicitly drives the debate now, and will go on whatever our constitutional status.

Then there are the external dynamics which will play a part in shaping Scotland’s future. What happens if Greece is unable to implement the current austerity programme, defaults, or is driven out of the euro by the European Commission?

What would occur if the euro itself goes down, or perhaps a more likely scenario, fragments into a core euro zone of Germany-France and a few others, and an outer set of states who have to leave, led by the unfortunately titled PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain)?

Then there is one of the great watershed moments. What impact would British withdrawal or serious detachment from the European Union have on Scotland? This is at least a possibility after Cameron’s disengagement from the European Union project at the end of last year, and use of the British veto.

Any debate on this has to frame that Scottish and English public opinion are not that different on this; both are Eurosceptic. Yet while English political debates are shaped by fear of Brussels encroachments on ‘the British way of life’, Scottish politicians are comfortable living not just in a union, but a multiplicity of unions, which involve sharing sovereignties and are more aware of Europe as a positive.

Then there is the final other external variable visible at the moment: the prospect of a US backed Israeli attack on Iran to thwart its supposed nuclear weapons ambitions. Such an attack would have devastating effects on the region, peace and would one surmises be carried out with the backing of the UK Government.

If this was to occur and the worst consequences flowed from it, this would have huge impact on the shape of the Scottish debate to put it mildly.

In these turbulent times it is highly likely that external events will frame and shape a significant part of, and possibly the outcome of the Scottish debate.

The first two Euro issues would on balance probably deal a blow to ambitions of independence. But the second two would bring to the fore the problematic character of the British state, its isolationism in Europe and fanatical pro-Atlanticism, and overall aid the argument for independence.

Scotland is not an island. Despite the rhetoric used by some unionist campaigners no one is seriously proposing ‘separatism’ and ‘separation’.

Scotland is connected to and shaped by the external world, and part of the Scottish debate is about a large part of the Scots public having a lack of trust and faith in believing the British government and state has the interest or ability to look after and protect the values and interests people believe in north of the border.

It would be a sign of welcome maturity if increasingly our politicians and other leaders would position Scotland in a wider context, talking about London and our relationship to it, the British state, and crucially, the wider world. Maybe we could all live up to that age old retort of Winnie Ewing many years ago, ‘Stop the world, Scotland wants to get on!’

 

Courtesy of Gerry Hassan - http://gerryhassan.com

Comments  

 
# clootie 2012-02-20 09:19
Gerry

I thought that the focus should have been on Scotland discussed in isolation and the rUK sailing on without change. The referendum YES vote will change both significantly yet the rUK part is seldom discussed.
I think both will benefit in the long term but they will not be the same as the current model.
The main difference will be that each will be free to form it's own place in the world. Loss of a seat at the big table will worry few Scots.
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-20 14:08
Gerry another thought provoking article and I think this part is the kernel of the Independence question.

quote..
"Scotland is not an island. Despite the rhetoric used by some unionist campaigners no one is seriously proposing ‘separatism’ and ‘separation’.

Scotland is connected to and shaped by the external world, and part of the Scottish debate is about a large part of the Scots public having a lack of trust and faith in believing the British government and state has the interest or ability to look after and protect the values and interests people believe in north of the border."

Unless and until that issue is addressed and dealt with then Scotland will always be on the way to Independence.
I think it will be sooner rather than later.
 
 
# handclapping 2012-02-20 14:31
Very true that there is little discussion of this but as you point out the times they are a changing with great rapidity. What does worry me is the lack of any, repeat any, discussion of what the effect of the referendum would have on the UK or rUK.

The nats are being asked what would their proposal do and the unionists are "demanding" answers, but noone is being asked what happens if freedom fails and we should be demanding the answers to that as well. Then we could have a debate.
 
 
# Dubai_scot 2012-02-21 15:13
A bit like Ireland and Iceland, you have to take the rough with the smooth.
The risk is, as I see it, people in Scotland do not trust themselves. Is this an effect of institutionalis ed propaganda? I think so, and will take a time to correct. That's why being POSITIVE about ones country and ones self is so very refreshing.
 
 
# Legerwood 2012-02-20 18:08
Quote:
It would be a sign of welcome maturity if increasingly our politicians and other leaders would position Scotland in a wider context, talking about London and our relationship to it, the British state, and crucially, the wider world...


It is certainly the case that Unionist politicians have not addressed the issue of what happens to the rUK. In his recent speeches Mr Salmond has attempted to address the issue of what Scotland's relationship with rUK would be post-independence but, in public at least, no unionist politician has done so.

The moment the SNP won a majority of seats in Holyrood they dynamic of the UK and its constituent parts changed but few have recognised that. No matter what the result of the referendum we cannot go back to the status quo ante.
 
 
# UpSpake 2012-02-20 18:30
By articualting a desire for the self-determination of the Scots nation way back in May last year, Alex Slamond laid down a line in the sand. From that day on the UK can and will never be the same again.
Failure to realise the massive impact on the 'constitutional debate' was not only a criticism that could be laid at the door of Westminster. The SNP administration equally failed to see the significance of what they had just done.
No longer a domestic UK issue anymore it moved on to the international stage.
Respect for the rights of recognisable nations and Scotland surely qualifies as such, is a concept that the UK is fully signed up too via the United Nations Charter Article 1, the Helsinki Accord and the Vienna Convention. This is not to be ignored as an irrelevance but a set of principles that must be adhered to by the 'mother' nation - England.
It cannot be that everything goes on as before. The obligations in international law are clear on the British Government and right now they are in breach of many of the guidelines. This is manna from heaven for the SNP but they are failing lamentably in taking up the cudgels given to them by such national agreements.
Whether or not the Scots government care to recognise the aces that they hold is no longer an issue as in due course the international community will lean on the Westminster administration whereupon a wholly new attitude will result, If they continue to act the way they are they face the wrath of the international community.
Alex Salmond is in a very strong place and he simply doesn't know it.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-20 18:44
I suspect he does know it. Better to calmly proceed with the referendum plans and wait for a particularly egregious breach - for example, any attempt to declare the referendum illegal - before bringing out the big guns for maximum effect.
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-21 10:39
I would agree with that analysis Jiggsbro. Mr.Salmond has no need to show his hand just yet
 
 
# peter,aberdeenshire 2012-02-20 19:01
On the issue of potential drought in England I heard the comment that some reservoirs in Scotland were overflowing but we did not have the means to transport large amounts of water between different areas, no maybe not yet but you can bet it is being looked at. Another reason westminster wants to keep its thieving mitts on Scotland and her resources.
 
 
# Mad Jock McMad 2012-02-20 20:09
Gerry - did you not see Wee Eck's interview with David Frost on Al Jeezera?

I think the SNP view of Scotland's place in the islands of Great Britain and the wider context were made clear. They are views you as an internationalis t should be pleased with.

Scotland's future is not dependent on the Euro zone's collapse nor is it predicated by it.

The only issue at the heart of independence is what the sovereign people vote for and the choice is simple:

Vote - No and Westminster will asset strip Scotland financially and politically on the promise of 'jam tomorrow'while driving welfare provision down neo-liberal lines epitomised by the right of the Conservative Party and their Republican friends.

Vote - Yes and Scotland's balanced economy, social democratic leanings, inventive and entrepreneurial skills will see us take our place in the world.

What Scotland will become has to do with the confidence we, Scots, have in ourselves and the sort of land we wish to live in.

All over the internet the discussion of Scotland's future is going on 24 hours a day.
 
 
# call me dave 2012-02-20 21:22
#MJM:

Fully agree with all you said and I'm look forward to Scotland taking it's rightful place in the world.

'What Scotland will become has to do with the confidence we, Scots, have in ourselves and the sort of land we wish to live in'.

It's that simple!
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-21 10:12
Well said Mad Jock.
 
 
# velofello 2012-02-20 21:43
Gerry,
i welcome your articles but I find you put forward too many points for consideration but then fail to address any in depth. Tends to read like an extended exam paper.
Anyway here is my take on UK events:
My experience is that the mood of UK collectivism was destroyed by Thatcher. Loss of empire and "clout" leading to inward thinking.
Anyone in the UK interested in world affairs - Greece, the euro etc., needs to tune into Al jazeera, EuroNews or whatever as there is little reported in the UK press or TV stations.
What you have failed to mention is the political plight of a country ruled by a party with just one, yes one representative in that country. We need to put our own house in order before thinking on the wider European political issues? Agreed?
 
 
# Jim Johnston 2012-02-20 22:35
"This imaginary Scotland is a self-determining territory which operates without much relation to the British state. The crises of the euro zone and European Union go unstated. And even more fundamentally, the global economic crisis, and that of Western enlightened liberalism and social democracy, usually pass without comment."

You must be joking Gerry, it's shoved down everyones throat every time any Westminster politician opens his mouth.

It's their big white hope to scare Scots and save the Union.

"Look up and see."
 
 
# Jester 2012-02-20 22:39
"Scottish politicians are comfortable living not just in a union, but a multiplicity of unions, which involve sharing sovereignties and are more aware of Europe as a positive."

That's as may be, but I'm sure many Scots (perhaps too many for Mr Salmonds liking) would vote YES to Independence and NO to further integration with Europe. Thankfully that will be our choice, and I'll happily campaign NO TO EUROPE.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-02-20 22:52
I'll happily argue with you on the campaign. Then we can go and have a pint together, and continue the argument!

In the meantime, we're on the same side in arguing that it's up to Scots to make the decisions on our future.
 
 
# GerrySNP 2012-02-21 04:30
Of course Scotland has to have a view on Greece and the Euro.
My own take on the events of the last year is that, insofar as the economic crisis is caused by the Euro and Greece, it has to be put down to the Europhiles and those guiding the "project" They knew that they couldnt have the political United States of Europe without a common currency and so came up with the Euro.
They knew that they couldnt have a common currency without the common fiscal and monetary controls, but believing (rightly) that they couldnt get away with that, they set up the euro anyway.The after 10 years of no control on debt creation by the poorer countries, all hell breaks loose and they can force the fiscal and monetary union on the countries who wouldnt have accepted them originally.
And then they blame the one Country which would have obeyed the rules if they (the UK) had agreed to them in the first place - Germany and France broke the system first, which is why they couldnt say anything when Ireland did.
And in setting up the fiscal, budgetary and monetary controls they have guaranteed that the new member State of Scotland will not join the Euro, since this is a sovereignty too far even for the europhiles in an Independence land
 
 
# chicmac 2012-02-22 03:26
The financial crisis was not caused by the Euro. Countries in the Euro which perhaps should not have been, have been more susceptible to the crisis so the Eurozone has problems, but that is quite different from CAUSING the problem.

The crisis has been caused by the neo-liberal/Globalist/Monetarist policies of the Chicago/Austrian School which were able to take hold in the USA and the UK by courtesy of brain-damaged political 'leadership'.

The consequent allowing of the BRIC countries into the WTO (Global Market) by the likes of Nick Clegg (for Europe) without ensuring regulating tariffs which would have controlled the rate of manufacturing transfer while simultaeneously increasing improvement for workers in those countries would have prevented the trade imbalance which has lead to the credit crunch.

Instead, the tariffs set actually worked the other way, to accelerate the transfer with no component formula to improve workers rights ion those countries.

Things have been redressed somewhat on the tariff front by the Americans, but in the UK there are still numpties aplenty who imagine the situation can be used to press the reset button on 200 years of struggle for workers rights gained in the West like collective bargaining, welfare system, pensions, health service, safety, environment,soc ial housing, infrastructure etc.

Lucky for us, the rest of Europe never really fell for it.

Yes, economies with large dependency on tourism are being inordinately hit by the crunch, but largely not their own fault.

Britain has a huge Total Debt figure. In absolute terms, it is second only to America and is about 2/3 the size of the American debt, but America has 5 times the population of the UK and a larger GDP per capita.i.e. much worse than America on a per capita basis.

If Britain were in the Eurozone it would be under EU administration like Greece by now.

The lunatic idea promoted by the likes of Friedman and Greenspan, that you could get net real wealth out without putting real wealth in in, is just as daft as those who thought you that you could get net energy out of a perpetual motion machine. Interestingly, both illusions rely on the same principle of creating a suitably complex system to fool the casual observer, at least for a while.
 
 
# Ben Power 2012-02-21 10:28
How many of us actually share these articles on Facebook. Sending them far and wide by Facebook and email is a great way of encouraging support for both Independence and Newsnet Scotland.
 
 
# John Souter 2012-02-21 15:12
This is the usual glass half full or empty argument.

From my point of view the EU collapsing would be the start of clearing some very muddied - some might say toxic - waters.

The original specification of the EU as sold to us by Westminster has fundamentally changed by covert and disingenuous steps to the form it is today. An oligarchic destroyer of democracy which puts finance before sovereignty.

The only real threat to Scotland once it gains independence is that it throws off the delusions of subsidiarity and has the wit, grit and tenacity to grow its economy while keeping a prudent eye on the parasitical financiers.
 
 
# Tinyzeitgeist 2012-02-21 19:19
Well said John.
 
 
# Woodside 2012-02-21 17:30
I have eventually found the time to respond to this article. It reads to me like the ruminations of a unionist who is only now beginning to wake up to the debates nationalists have been having for years.I have tried to go through the article methodically and put my responses down so apologies that this post is a bit longwinded.

The SNP I have always been fully aware of the international side of the debate, we have always been engaged with the wider argument and do not talk of independence in isolation as we know it is the union which causes such "isolationist" thoughts

To us Scotland is anything but imaginary- it is the whole point of the debate- Scotland is a definable nation and to say that the crisis in the eurozone is unstated- AS is forever answering questions on this as the unionists try to have us believe Scotland would be out of europe on one hand while on the other we would be thirled to the euro and end up like Greece.

No one said the journey was cost free, but the union is certainly not cost free for Scotland- indeed it is costing us a bleeding fortune! What balancing act has Scotland had to perform- the seesaw we have been on has one very heavy entity on one end with everything running to it whilst we have been left to dangle in midair and take what is given to us. Successive secretaries of State have seen themselves as Westminsters representative in Scotland rather than vice versa- Scotland's voice has not been heard indeed it has been a situation where we are to be seen and not heard with the Secretary of State acting as a governor general.

To say we now have a weaker voice is breathtaking given the way all the unionist parties have been jumping about on the issue of devolving more powers- including the Prime Minister and Secretary of State.

We never had any status in Westminster in the first place, so how can we lose it. The debate is always seen as how we would relate to London and the South-east- well from up here the question is how would they relate to us and if recent murmurings have been anything to go buy they will treat us with the usual contempt- so nothing lost there then. Having the argument about the debate having no international side to it to then concentrate on the South-East has more to say about the way unionist view the debate than nationalists- we are interested in having a normal relationship with the rest of the world which when I last looked at a map extends considerably beyond the South-east of England, although the same map does confirm what we all knew- we are on the same bit of land so nothing new there.

Scotland will deal with the consequences of the Greek situation the same way as all the other European nations, it's just that we will get to make the decisions. If the rUk withdraws from Europe then they withdraw from Europe, we have to determine our own future relationships- it certainly is no reason to stay thirled to Westminster. No one knows if Scotland is eurosceptic- I haven't seen any recent polls saying so and not seeing ourselves as better than any other nation means we can deal on a mature level with various governments and commissions.

As for Iran- well if ever there was an argument for Independence this may be it- if this happens we have to get out and get out of the UK asap.

SNP politicians have always seen Scotland in a wider world context, if the unionists can't grasp this concept then it's not the nationalists who are lacking in maturity.

This whole article seems to me like someone who is only beginning to come to terms with the debate from the unionist perspective. Nationalists have been discussing these issues and Scotland's relationships with the rest of the world for years. Whilst we have wanted to Stop the World and clamber aboard for decades it is the unionist who have a lot of catching up to do- we are in the terminal ready for boarding!
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-21 22:22
Excellent post .
 
 
# Exile 2012-02-21 19:59
Gerry

Actually, the 'Scotland Office' was not diminshed. The Scottish Office was diminished and its de facto role changed, which was possibly reflected in the name change to Scotland Office. Whereas previously it had represented Scotland in Whitehall, it now became Whitehall's representative in Scotland, with the Secretary of State becoming effectively a quasi-ambassador-cum-governor-general.
 
 
# cokynutjoe 2012-02-22 10:52
Greece is unable to live in the real world and devalue its currency, something must snap!
 

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