Sunday, 20 November 2011 22:22
90 Comments
By a Newsnet reporter 
Labour MP Douglas Alexander has re-stated that he has an “open mind” on what extra powers might be devolved to the Scottish parliament.
The senior Scottish Labour MP was being interviewed on the Politics Show Scotland when he was questioned on whether he supported more powers than was currently contained in the Scotland Bill.
Replying, the MP for Paisley South repeated remarks he made in a speech on Saturday and confirmed he was open minded on even more powers being devolved.
Speaking on Saturday, Mr Alexander had called for the pre-referendum period to herald "a new affirmation of Scottish Labour’s agenda for our nation", thought to be a call for the Scottish party to occupy the ground that lies beyond the Tory/Lib Dem Scotland Bill.
Scottish Labour MPs have admitted privately they no longer believe they can hold to the line of the status quo – as proposed in the Scotland Bill – given the SNP’s victory in May. One MP is reported to have said: "Prior to May, it may have been that the Calman plans were what people wanted. But, clearly, May has changed that and you can’t ignore it."
Responding to the comments from the senior Labour figure, the SNP’s Adam Ingram described them as a new “constitutional policy”.
In a reference to the current Scottish Labour leadership contest, where none of the candidates has endorsed anything beyond the Scotland Bill, Mr Ingram said Scottish Labour “had gone from having a leader without a policy to a policy without a leader.”
The SNP MSP who sits on the Scotland bill committee at Holyrood said Douglas Alexander’s rewrite of Labour’s constitutional policy should be put to the test in the leadership contest.
Mr Ingram said:
“With the absence of any real ideas or debate from the three leadership candidates Douglas Alexander’s intervention has created a constitutional policy for the party without a leadership candidate to support it.
“Once again it is the London leadership of the Labour party that has had to come down from on high to tell Scottish Labour what they are thinking.
"Perhaps they should reopen the leadership contest to allow this new policy to be tested.
“Labour now has leadership contenders without a policy on the constitution and a constitutional policy without a leader to deliver it."
The Scotland Bill, based on Calman Commission recommendations, contains plans to alter the Scottish income tax rate by 10p, and invites the Scottish parliament to re-instate the reduction in order to fund the resultant cut to the Scottish block grant.
However the proposals have been criticised by respected academics who claim that the plans are dangerous and may in fact damage the Scottish economy.
The alternative Devo-Max option would give the Scottish parliament control over all Scottish resources, including oil, gas and the vast renewable energy sector, but leave control over defence and foreign affairs with Westminster.
Comments
#
2011-11-20 23:12
Instead of a new affirmation of the Labour Party in Scotland, how about a new affirmation of Scotland and its people?
I am sick to death of Labour talking about Labour.
I am sick to death of Labour talking about Labour.
#
2011-11-20 23:22
A Parting Hymn: Lies, deciept and the death of the Labour Party: www.youtube.com/.../
#
2011-11-20 23:23
I was somewhat shocked and surprised to see Raymond Buchanan briefly put wee Dougie on the spot in the interview...I nearly fell off my chair!!
P.s Off topic
I have started a new Independence blog today which I intend carrying through until the referendum.
If anyone is interested it can be found here. auldacquaintance.wordpress.com/
P.s Off topic
I have started a new Independence blog today which I intend carrying through until the referendum.
If anyone is interested it can be found here. auldacquaintance.wordpress.com/
#
2011-11-21 00:22
Having just watched 'Diomhair' on MG Alba (again) I am in no mind to believe anything Douglas Alexander or any of his Unionist co-conspirators suggest in respect of granting Scotland any serious concessions. For reasons which are as valid today as they were in the mid 70's when they locked the truth in the vaults of the Whitehall I don't believe that Unionists will concede any quarter in granting FFA to a future Scottish Parliament. Where else could they find the funding to underpin their inflated egos and the outdated image of Great Britain which they resolutely cling to.
In an attempt to make more Scots aware of the disgraceful machinations which robbed them of their vast wealth over the past 30 years would it not be a good idea for the Referendum Campaign to spend some of it's largesse to distribute a DVD of Diomhair, or a short edited version of the last twenty minutes of the film which exposed the treachery of the 1970's, to every household in Scotland. This would demonstrate, particularly to the younger generation, how treacherous Westminster can be when their back is against the wall. Perhaps someone could comment on the copyright implications of doing this.
In an attempt to make more Scots aware of the disgraceful machinations which robbed them of their vast wealth over the past 30 years would it not be a good idea for the Referendum Campaign to spend some of it's largesse to distribute a DVD of Diomhair, or a short edited version of the last twenty minutes of the film which exposed the treachery of the 1970's, to every household in Scotland. This would demonstrate, particularly to the younger generation, how treacherous Westminster can be when their back is against the wall. Perhaps someone could comment on the copyright implications of doing this.
#
2011-11-21 02:03
Totally agree with you ian. The points that were excellently made in this programme should be made available to every household in Scotland.
With regard to the issue of copyright I think the best way forward would be to contact Caledonia TV, the producers of this excellent programme.
With regard to the issue of copyright I think the best way forward would be to contact Caledonia TV, the producers of this excellent programme.
#
2011-11-21 08:51
Morning Ian and A1320,
I finally watched the programme on youtube then again on alba last night. It should be shown across Scotland,
It would be great to see a "Part 2", from the point it left of through to today. The impact of the SNP and their success in the face of Westminster and Unionist adversity would show what can be done when Scotland comes first.
Roll on Indepencence, then watch how Scotland will grow in a hell of a lot less than 30 years.
I finally watched the programme on youtube then again on alba last night. It should be shown across Scotland,
It would be great to see a "Part 2", from the point it left of through to today. The impact of the SNP and their success in the face of Westminster and Unionist adversity would show what can be done when Scotland comes first.
Roll on Indepencence, then watch how Scotland will grow in a hell of a lot less than 30 years.
#
2011-11-21 09:30
Hi Arbroath, Good to see ye back again!
Very much agree with you and ianbeag. Watched the programme again last night and spent a long time in the Darkened Room. This programme should be viewed primetime in Scotland. Its a guarantee that polls shortly after viewing would show a substantial sudden shift towards independence.
Very much agree with you and ianbeag. Watched the programme again last night and spent a long time in the Darkened Room. This programme should be viewed primetime in Scotland. Its a guarantee that polls shortly after viewing would show a substantial sudden shift towards independence.
#
2011-11-21 11:19
Sorry for the absence.
I think I may have upset some unionist fellow somewhere.
Our internet went down for about 10 days. It should have been only 8 days but B.T. in their usual customer "don't care" attitude screwed up and it took another two days before we got our internet connection back.
All I can say is thank goodness we are not B.T. customers.
I think I may have upset some unionist fellow somewhere.
Our internet went down for about 10 days. It should have been only 8 days but B.T. in their usual customer "don't care" attitude screwed up and it took another two days before we got our internet connection back.
All I can say is thank goodness we are not B.T. customers.
#
2011-11-21 10:27
Sorry to spoil the party Arb, but the BBC hold all copyrights to the programme, not the production company that made it.
Shame.
However, it is on You Tube, so pass on this link to interested parties:
www.youtube.com/.../
Shame.
However, it is on You Tube, so pass on this link to interested parties:
www.youtube.com/.../
#
2011-11-21 11:22
Awe well it was just a thought. :D
Mind you, if you think about it is it the BBC, BBC Scotland or BBC ALBA?
My warped sense of thinking is going along the lines that if it is BBC ALBA then there may still be a chance to get copyright permission. I only say this because I have regularly noticed that the news on BBC ALBA, AN LA, does not show any political bias to any of their politically based stories so I wonder how closely their political output is controlled by BBC Labour.
Mind you, if you think about it is it the BBC, BBC Scotland or BBC ALBA?
My warped sense of thinking is going along the lines that if it is BBC ALBA then there may still be a chance to get copyright permission. I only say this because I have regularly noticed that the news on BBC ALBA, AN LA, does not show any political bias to any of their politically based stories so I wonder how closely their political output is controlled by BBC Labour.
#
2011-11-21 11:48
MG Alba is partially funded by the BBC and directly by the Scottish Government. Here is a link to their website which explains the funding arrangements and their partnership with the BBC. www.mgalba.com/.../index.html Worth a read.
#
2011-11-21 10:23
I watched it too. Not sure how they are getting away with it though. I remember the SNP complaining that a Labour place man was installed as head, when the channel started up, not long after the SNP came to power in the 2007 election.
Has here been a change of management since then?
Everyone should watch the programme, but I think many people may not be drawn to the channel because of the language and the sub-titles.
After seeing it I thought that if a feature film could be made around the events, which could attract a large audience, it may stir some feelings, like Braveheart has done, in drawing peoples attention to injustices. It could be done in the style of a detective mystery, as all the elements seem to be there, like the machinations of MI5 setting up SNP supporters to cause explosions etc and the stealing of the stone. Could Steven Spielberg be persuaded? Perhaps he could get the cooperation of the Edinburgh Polis!
Has here been a change of management since then?
Everyone should watch the programme, but I think many people may not be drawn to the channel because of the language and the sub-titles.
After seeing it I thought that if a feature film could be made around the events, which could attract a large audience, it may stir some feelings, like Braveheart has done, in drawing peoples attention to injustices. It could be done in the style of a detective mystery, as all the elements seem to be there, like the machinations of MI5 setting up SNP supporters to cause explosions etc and the stealing of the stone. Could Steven Spielberg be persuaded? Perhaps he could get the cooperation of the Edinburgh Polis!
#
2011-11-21 10:31
I actually came away from Diomhair with a real disgust for McCrone - unionist lackey.
Anyone with any sense of justice would have leaked that report to the press and the SNP and it would all have been so different. He would have been regarded as a hero in Scotland.
Anyone with any sense of justice would have leaked that report to the press and the SNP and it would all have been so different. He would have been regarded as a hero in Scotland.
#
2011-11-21 11:32
I think you have to remember that his report was produced in the 1970's. At that time there were not many, if any, people who "leaked" reports from government departments.
Had this report been produced today then I am certain "someone" would most definitely have "leaked" this report.
I think you are being a wee bit harsh on Professor Macrone on this issue. After all it was not really the done thing back then to produce reports such as this that put such levels of fear into the government of the day.
Had this report been produced today then I am certain "someone" would most definitely have "leaked" this report.
I think you are being a wee bit harsh on Professor Macrone on this issue. After all it was not really the done thing back then to produce reports such as this that put such levels of fear into the government of the day.
#
2011-11-22 13:28
Why stop there? Why not consider revitalising in some form or other "The Stag, The Cheviot & the Black, Black Oil"? Taking that show on the road again would raise many a heart and further the cause in no small way.
#
2011-11-21 01:04
Cynical Highlander
"decEIpt", please
Otherwise excellent if politically somewhat one sided
"decEIpt", please
Otherwise excellent if politically somewhat one sided
#
2011-11-21 01:12
Just watched Diomhair on BBC alba tonight and i must say in a polite way... I am deeply shocked and angered and feel a large side of resentment towards Westminster. They fight for democracy abroad and we have none in our nation. I so hope the people of Scotland will not listen to the lies that Labor or the ConDem coalition have to say and just vote YES in the referendum for Scottish Independence.
#
2011-11-21 01:13
Even if the labour party say!
The alternative Devo-Max option would give the Scottish parliament control over all Scottish resources, including oil, gas and the vast renewable energy sector, but leave control over defence and foreign affairs with Westminster.
Like Odysseus's crew we should stuff our ears with wax so as to ignore their siren voices.
As said by many on another similar thread Labour have no power to give Scotland anything. They are not in power anywhere and have a long hard road to come back from purgatory!
Only the coalition UK government can give devo-max to the Scottish people and that's not going to happen.
The SNP do not want devo-max and will have to , in my opinion, eventually take independence overtly.
Labour are merely 'spear carriers' desperate to get on the main stage and get a speaking part but unable to find a way to do it.
They are a distraction from the main event. They will not be able to overcome their inertia in time for the next council elections and will further be diminished as a party in Scotland.
Forget them and their smoke and mirrors.
perhaps a few genuine socialist soles will come over if they want independence but not many.
Lets keep an eye on them by all means but concentrate on the forces of darkness South of Hadrians wall preparing their slings and arrows for the battle. Their nostrils have flared in recent weeks scenting the smell of Scottish passion and dissent in the ranks. Their cage has been rattled and they know they must now quell any notion that Scotland can be independent. Plans and schemes are being hatched to foil the 'First Eck' both in the UK and abroad.
They have tried to persuade our SG about how impractical it would be to break away so they will now have a go at our industrialists & investors.
They will also talk directly to the Scottish people over the head of our government through the MSM and the BBC with negative messages ; doom laden scenarios painting bleak futures for us and our children. They will use all the levers of the UK parliament to destroy agencies in Scotland where they have control. They have only flexed their muscles and the worst is still to come.
They cannot, and will not, allow the most energy rich country in Western Europe to become independent. Too much is at stake!
Look back in history to see what they have done to Scotland look at the McCrone Reoprt more recently and there are things we do not know about yet.
Look at the present where we are still burningmillions billions of pounds to keep us at war and to strut the world playing international politics.
Without the oil and the income from other products and resources they would be running about in torn breeks and no shoes.
Tin hats anyone (seriously)
Och here's matron with the yellow pills and the daily record, I'llhave to go!
Matron . . . I don't want to see the sports pages. Hey please don't switch my compu. . !
The alternative Devo-Max option would give the Scottish parliament control over all Scottish resources, including oil, gas and the vast renewable energy sector, but leave control over defence and foreign affairs with Westminster.
Like Odysseus's crew we should stuff our ears with wax so as to ignore their siren voices.
As said by many on another similar thread Labour have no power to give Scotland anything. They are not in power anywhere and have a long hard road to come back from purgatory!
Only the coalition UK government can give devo-max to the Scottish people and that's not going to happen.
The SNP do not want devo-max and will have to , in my opinion, eventually take independence overtly.
Labour are merely 'spear carriers' desperate to get on the main stage and get a speaking part but unable to find a way to do it.
They are a distraction from the main event. They will not be able to overcome their inertia in time for the next council elections and will further be diminished as a party in Scotland.
Forget them and their smoke and mirrors.
perhaps a few genuine socialist soles will come over if they want independence but not many.
Lets keep an eye on them by all means but concentrate on the forces of darkness South of Hadrians wall preparing their slings and arrows for the battle. Their nostrils have flared in recent weeks scenting the smell of Scottish passion and dissent in the ranks. Their cage has been rattled and they know they must now quell any notion that Scotland can be independent. Plans and schemes are being hatched to foil the 'First Eck' both in the UK and abroad.
They have tried to persuade our SG about how impractical it would be to break away so they will now have a go at our industrialists & investors.
They will also talk directly to the Scottish people over the head of our government through the MSM and the BBC with negative messages ; doom laden scenarios painting bleak futures for us and our children. They will use all the levers of the UK parliament to destroy agencies in Scotland where they have control. They have only flexed their muscles and the worst is still to come.
They cannot, and will not, allow the most energy rich country in Western Europe to become independent. Too much is at stake!
Look back in history to see what they have done to Scotland look at the McCrone Reoprt more recently and there are things we do not know about yet.
Look at the present where we are still burning
Without the oil and the income from other products and resources they would be running about in torn breeks and no shoes.
Tin hats anyone (seriously)
Och here's matron with the yellow pills and the daily record, I'llhave to go!
Matron . . . I don't want to see the sports pages. Hey please don't switch my compu. . !
#
2011-11-21 08:11
Hi call me,
That was my reaction too. There is little prospect of Labour forming the government in Westminster for years, if not decades to come, so wee Douggie can feel free to promise anything he likes without the fear of actually having to implement it.
In the meantime it leads credence to the idea that devo-max might actually be a option, which we who are interested in such things know that this will never happen.
In the meantime we must continue to press forward, presenting the benefits of Independence and hope that the peoples' ears remain deaf to the siren's blandishments.
Keep taking the tablets!
Regards,
That was my reaction too. There is little prospect of Labour forming the government in Westminster for years, if not decades to come, so wee Douggie can feel free to promise anything he likes without the fear of actually having to implement it.
In the meantime it leads credence to the idea that devo-max might actually be a option, which we who are interested in such things know that this will never happen.
In the meantime we must continue to press forward, presenting the benefits of Independence and hope that the peoples' ears remain deaf to the siren's blandishments.
Keep taking the tablets!
Regards,
#
2011-11-21 02:36
O/T but another interesting little ditty to upset the Labour party.
bbc.co.uk/.../...
Oh dear, yet another topic that will have to be scratched off the Labour attack planning sheet for FMQ's on Thursday.
Is there anything left on this attack sheet?
bbc.co.uk/.../...
Oh dear, yet another topic that will have to be scratched off the Labour attack planning sheet for FMQ's on Thursday.
Is there anything left on this attack sheet?
#
2011-11-21 07:43
Well obviously the SNP are trying to drive divisions between the UK by outperforming it.
They're probably even doing it deliberately!
And theres no doubt they will be cheered on by those nasty CyberNat's...
What is AS going to do about this blatant anti UK policy???
(It will go something like that)
They're probably even doing it deliberately!
And theres no doubt they will be cheered on by those nasty CyberNat's...
What is AS going to do about this blatant anti UK policy???
(It will go something like that)
#
2011-11-21 08:07
Nope, I was wrong.
Its easier not to report it and to instead make up a non-story and allude to better perfomance by the UK than Scotland.
scotsman.com/.../...
Its easier not to report it and to instead make up a non-story and allude to better perfomance by the UK than Scotland.
scotsman.com/.../...
#
2011-11-21 10:34
He's not going to be happy when he sees that..
Just thinking, surely this is the kind of story that Reporting Scotland covers ? Maybe, just maybe it might feature on the lunchtime and 6'o clock bulletins...
Just thinking, surely this is the kind of story that Reporting Scotland covers ? Maybe, just maybe it might feature on the lunchtime and 6'o clock bulletins...
#
2011-11-21 02:38
Quote:
What's all this about "Diaper Boy" having an open mind on extra powers for Scotland?
Surely before you have an open mind you actually have to have a mind to start with.
Labour MP Douglas Alexander has re-stated that he has an “open mind” on what extra powers might be devolved to the Scottish parliament.
What's all this about "Diaper Boy" having an open mind on extra powers for Scotland?
Surely before you have an open mind you actually have to have a mind to start with.
#
2011-11-21 02:42
Ken McIntosh seems to have the gift of making banal statements wholly unrelated to the aspirations of two thirds of the Scottish people.
“I believe absolutely in a devolutionist approach,” he said. “I believe in home rule. I believe we’ve got home rule at the moment and the best thing about home rule is using the Scottish Parliament to improve the life of Scots and we can begin to dismantle the SNP argument by breaking down which powers they want to devolve.”
So he joins Ruth Davidson as seeing the status quo (or maybe the Scotland Bill, or maybe he has no idea himself) as being the "line in the sand".
Clearly none of them have ever been on a Scottish beach! Whether is tide, wave or wind, those lines get erased pretyy quickly.
If McIntosh's "Home Rule" is going to be the same as Ming Campbell's "Home Rule", then we are going to see the the 3 Tweedle parties, wholly ignoring what Scots actually want.
Intellectually, these people aren't stupid - so why are they so politically inept?
“I believe absolutely in a devolutionist approach,” he said. “I believe in home rule. I believe we’ve got home rule at the moment and the best thing about home rule is using the Scottish Parliament to improve the life of Scots and we can begin to dismantle the SNP argument by breaking down which powers they want to devolve.”
So he joins Ruth Davidson as seeing the status quo (or maybe the Scotland Bill, or maybe he has no idea himself) as being the "line in the sand".
Clearly none of them have ever been on a Scottish beach! Whether is tide, wave or wind, those lines get erased pretyy quickly.
If McIntosh's "Home Rule" is going to be the same as Ming Campbell's "Home Rule", then we are going to see the the 3 Tweedle parties, wholly ignoring what Scots actually want.
Intellectually, these people aren't stupid - so why are they so politically inept?
#
2011-11-21 03:25
"Intellectually, these people aren't stupid - so why are they so politically inept?"
OK I shouldn't ask such foolish questions!
I just saw this really silly comment from a SLAB member on the Hootsman blog about national identity
"Interestingly enough, our Labour Party branch carried out a similar survey in three different Union Streets in Scotland (Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen), asking 1.786 adults how they woud identify their nationality. Surprisingly, only 11 of those questioned described themselves as being English, thereby contradicting the above findings in Plymouth and confirming the strength of the Union. The poll did reveal some interesting points, one of them being that 5 of those questioned referred to themseves as Germans and three called themselves Canadians."
Jeez! Is that the intellectual calibre of SLAB these days?
OK I shouldn't ask such foolish questions!
I just saw this really silly comment from a SLAB member on the Hootsman blog about national identity
"Interestingly enough, our Labour Party branch carried out a similar survey in three different Union Streets in Scotland (Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen), asking 1.786 adults how they woud identify their nationality. Surprisingly, only 11 of those questioned described themselves as being English, thereby contradicting the above findings in Plymouth and confirming the strength of the Union. The poll did reveal some interesting points, one of them being that 5 of those questioned referred to themseves as Germans and three called themselves Canadians."
Jeez! Is that the intellectual calibre of SLAB these days?
#
2011-11-21 10:08
Oldnat, the guy who wrote that is a Nationalist. He's great at taking the micky out of any Unionist propaganda. Trust me, he's on our side.
#
2011-11-21 10:32
The home rule approach was highlighted in the TV programme 'Diomhair,'last night when it was shown to be a sop to the Scots. It would be no better this time around.
#
2011-11-21 11:36
Quote:
WHAT?
“I believe absolutely in a devolutionist approach,” he said. “I believe in home rule. I believe we’ve got home rule at the moment and the best thing about home rule is using the Scottish Parliament to improve the life of Scots and we can begin to dismantle the SNP argument by breaking down which powers they want to devolve.”
WHAT?
#
2011-11-21 04:13
O/T again, sorry.
Just found yet another topic for Labour to scratch off their attack list.
news.stv.tv/.../...
Hell if we keep going at this rate the Labour attack sheet will soon consist of a completely blank sheet of paper.
Just found yet another topic for Labour to scratch off their attack list.
news.stv.tv/.../...
Hell if we keep going at this rate the Labour attack sheet will soon consist of a completely blank sheet of paper.
#
2011-11-21 07:55
Hi Arbroath,
This one will go along the lines of...
SNP MSP attends UN Junket in South Africa at Tax Payers Expense.
Sources confirm that Stewart Stevenson will attend the event to beg for UN approval of Scotlands renewable efforts. These efforts have been criticised in a Citigroup report and by the Institute of Mechanical Engineers (IMechE).
A labour spokesman said...
Closely followed by an attack by Elmer brandishing the newspaper it appears in.
This one will go along the lines of...
SNP MSP attends UN Junket in South Africa at Tax Payers Expense.
Sources confirm that Stewart Stevenson will attend the event to beg for UN approval of Scotlands renewable efforts. These efforts have been criticised in a Citigroup report and by the Institute of Mechanical Engineers (IMechE).
A labour spokesman said...
Closely followed by an attack by Elmer brandishing the newspaper it appears in.
#
2011-11-21 11:42
Yep that will be the one Macart. The piece of paper he waves about every week while doing his Neville Chamberlain "peace in our time" impression. :D
#
2011-11-21 06:11
Go Dougie Go.. u are starting to sing from the SNP song book... So is it "devo max.. or full independence.... Just lke Nu Labour.. stood for nothing but power, for power sake.. .. your too late Dougie..the people of Scotland see right through you now.
#
2011-11-21 07:11
We have a group of parties(Sociali st/Green/SNP) trying to win ground for the people of Scotland.
On the other side We have the Unionist parties fighting a defensive rearguard action surrendering ground in an attempt to delay advancement.
Are we to thank Douglas for surrendering some territory after he discovers that the locals are supporting the uprising?
AS for the intellectual calibre of the Labour party - I think the answer is self evident. It is a "Cult" instead of representing principles and people. A cult suppresses individuality and capacity leaving the mantra.
On the other side We have the Unionist parties fighting a defensive rearguard action surrendering ground in an attempt to delay advancement.
Are we to thank Douglas for surrendering some territory after he discovers that the locals are supporting the uprising?
AS for the intellectual calibre of the Labour party - I think the answer is self evident. It is a "Cult" instead of representing principles and people. A cult suppresses individuality and capacity leaving the mantra.
#
2011-11-21 09:05
Having long pleaded for some sign of movement from the British Labour & Unionist Party in Scotland to bring it more in line with the reality of Scotland's politics, I have to welcome Alexander's grudging epiphany. But it is a very, very cautious welcome. The rhetoric is promising. But the substance simply isn't there.
What I want to hear from "Scottish" Labour is that they are renouncing the policy of prioritising the interests of the British state ahead of the interests of the interests of Scotland and its people.
What I am hearing instead is that they recognise they must do more to give the impression of putting Scotland first. Not that they should stop trying to deceive the people of Scotland, but that they need to become better at it.
I don't expect "Scottish" Labour to become a nationalist party. I do expect them to become a Scottish party. As yet, I am not persuaded that there is any genuine movement in that direction.
Referendum Debate: www.referendumdebate.com
What I want to hear from "Scottish" Labour is that they are renouncing the policy of prioritising the interests of the British state ahead of the interests of the interests of Scotland and its people.
What I am hearing instead is that they recognise they must do more to give the impression of putting Scotland first. Not that they should stop trying to deceive the people of Scotland, but that they need to become better at it.
I don't expect "Scottish" Labour to become a nationalist party. I do expect them to become a Scottish party. As yet, I am not persuaded that there is any genuine movement in that direction.
Referendum Debate: www.referendumdebate.com
#
2011-11-21 09:45
Ah the ideas that germinate whilst chewing on a Subway :)
At the moment the Coalition and Labour are all over the place on this. If they want a Devo max put one on the table - having an open mind means nothing.
At the moment the Coalition and Labour are all over the place on this. If they want a Devo max put one on the table - having an open mind means nothing.
#
2011-11-21 09:50
Alexander and the rest of the Labour group are going to take a long time to decide amongst themselves on what their vision of devolution beyond Calman means. They still see it as a ploy to gain trust and position as opposed to a means of delivering service to the people of Scotland.
You listen to the language of any senior Labour politician and all you hear about is regaining ground, power, influence. How about delivering services, justice, jobs, security for your electorate? As I posted on the related thread 'Labour desperation exposed.....', even if Labour do all agree on some form of devo max option, they couldn't possibly guarantee delivering it. It's the usual smokescreen of promises without substance.
Just a thought!
You listen to the language of any senior Labour politician and all you hear about is regaining ground, power, influence. How about delivering services, justice, jobs, security for your electorate? As I posted on the related thread 'Labour desperation exposed.....', even if Labour do all agree on some form of devo max option, they couldn't possibly guarantee delivering it. It's the usual smokescreen of promises without substance.
Just a thought!
#
2011-11-21 10:04
morning , macart, good point and you then need to add to the mix the tory's and the lib dems who will also split right down the middle. none of them have a scooby what devolution max actually means. it probably means something different to every single one of them and of course they all need westminster to agree to it whatever it may be
yet another blinder played by AS and the Scottish government.
sit back and watch the infighting begin
Sid
yet another blinder played by AS and the Scottish government.
sit back and watch the infighting begin
Sid
#
2011-11-21 11:03
Hi Sid
Couldn't agree more. I posted at some length on this a couple of days ago in the related thread mentioned above. There are many reason's why its all a smokescreen, but perhaps the simplest of them is time. 24 - 36 months for any or all three of the Westminster parties to come up with a definition of devo max far less an actual bill? Not gonna happen!
Whatever promise they make, even IF they intended to keep it (snort), would take years to bring to fruition. The SNP could open up negotiations the day after the referendum and they WILL keep their promise.
Couldn't agree more. I posted at some length on this a couple of days ago in the related thread mentioned above. There are many reason's why its all a smokescreen, but perhaps the simplest of them is time. 24 - 36 months for any or all three of the Westminster parties to come up with a definition of devo max far less an actual bill? Not gonna happen!
Whatever promise they make, even IF they intended to keep it (snort), would take years to bring to fruition. The SNP could open up negotiations the day after the referendum and they WILL keep their promise.
#
2011-11-21 09:59
Pay attention to the language and to the motives of this professional politician.
"open minded on even more powers being devolved. "
It means that London Labour, when next in power and only if circumstances permit, will grudgingly yield to Scotland certain strictly defined powers.
Douglas Alexander appears to have political ambitions. He has done well in the Westminster/Labour Party system and he will in future years be looking for appointments outside politics.
Are the interests of Scotland likely to be uppermost in the mind of Douglas Alexander?
"open minded on even more powers being devolved. "
It means that London Labour, when next in power and only if circumstances permit, will grudgingly yield to Scotland certain strictly defined powers.
Douglas Alexander appears to have political ambitions. He has done well in the Westminster/Labour Party system and he will in future years be looking for appointments outside politics.
Are the interests of Scotland likely to be uppermost in the mind of Douglas Alexander?
#
2011-11-21 10:40
the answer to your last question is certainly not.
farrochie, one wonders why baby face should start being the labour party poster boy right now . he has not been off the telly or radio all weekend. it is working cos I for one am sick of him
Sid
farrochie, one wonders why baby face should start being the labour party poster boy right now . he has not been off the telly or radio all weekend. it is working cos I for one am sick of him
Sid
#
2011-11-21 10:53
Dougie is playing 'rat-pack' politics in a Scottish environment that is seeking to exterminate the self same 'rat-packs' from its politics.
Basically a rat, is a rat, is a rat and any attempt to bark still leaves it a rat.
Basically a rat, is a rat, is a rat and any attempt to bark still leaves it a rat.
#
2011-11-21 10:53
I've not seen the Politics Show yet, but no doubt what he said was on a par to his interview with Derek Bateman on Newsweek Scotland -- fairly pitiful.
It was painfully obvious when Batemen made a valiant effort to pin Douglas Alexander down to something concrete that all this guy really wants is to make the appropriate noises to create the appearance of action without committing the party to anything of the sort. His language was so carefully chosen to leave plenty of wiggle room -- and wiggle he did when Bateman attempted to stake down what he was actually proposing.
It's smoke and mirrors, as always. Unfortunately for Alexander, the debate is moving swiftly on, and the days of being able to get away with vague statements of support for (possible) new powers at Holyrood are long gone. If Labour really does want to occupy the devo-max middle ground, they need to come out and say it, and state clearly just what they mean by that. I think they'll find that the public will also demand that degree of constitutional change requires a popular mandate in the form of a referendum -- so to gain any credibility they'll also need to drop their opposition of a second question. Are they willing to make that leap?
It's all academic any way. They can't deliver devo-max (or the LibDems' wishy-washy concept of "home rule") without broad backing in Westminster. The parliamentary arithmetic doesn't add up for that; the Tories will oppose it to the hilt, and there will definitely be rebels within the Labour group.
Still, isn't it fun to watch them run!
It was painfully obvious when Batemen made a valiant effort to pin Douglas Alexander down to something concrete that all this guy really wants is to make the appropriate noises to create the appearance of action without committing the party to anything of the sort. His language was so carefully chosen to leave plenty of wiggle room -- and wiggle he did when Bateman attempted to stake down what he was actually proposing.
It's smoke and mirrors, as always. Unfortunately for Alexander, the debate is moving swiftly on, and the days of being able to get away with vague statements of support for (possible) new powers at Holyrood are long gone. If Labour really does want to occupy the devo-max middle ground, they need to come out and say it, and state clearly just what they mean by that. I think they'll find that the public will also demand that degree of constitutional change requires a popular mandate in the form of a referendum -- so to gain any credibility they'll also need to drop their opposition of a second question. Are they willing to make that leap?
It's all academic any way. They can't deliver devo-max (or the LibDems' wishy-washy concept of "home rule") without broad backing in Westminster. The parliamentary arithmetic doesn't add up for that; the Tories will oppose it to the hilt, and there will definitely be rebels within the Labour group.
Still, isn't it fun to watch them run!
#
2011-11-21 11:06
If Labour want to take the devomax ground they are going to have to force through an opposition White Paper on increased devolution and smartish in Westminster.
"What's that Ed? Shut up Dougie! Dougie shutting up."
"What's that Ed? Shut up Dougie! Dougie shutting up."
#
2011-11-21 12:21
Quote:
But without the smoke or the mirrors. Desperate stuff from another unionist party running scared.
BUT ... let's not forget that SOME people are desperate to justify why they will vote Labour once more. The reluctant 'stay at homes' or the vote-lenders need any excuse to revert to type.
Sometimes my own countrymen/women do depress me. :-(
It's smoke and mirrors, as always.
But without the smoke or the mirrors. Desperate stuff from another unionist party running scared.
BUT ... let's not forget that SOME people are desperate to justify why they will vote Labour once more. The reluctant 'stay at homes' or the vote-lenders need any excuse to revert to type.
Sometimes my own countrymen/women do depress me. :-(
#
2011-11-21 11:18
Alexander put forward no thoughts of policies or initiatives to benefit the country - only what's best for the Labour Party.
When he says he has an open mind on the matter, that means he has no ideas of his own. He's waiting to see what the SNP and others come up with.
When he says he has an open mind on the matter, that means he has no ideas of his own. He's waiting to see what the SNP and others come up with.
#
2011-11-21 11:32
no surprises there then is there!
labour have had no idea's of their own for years about anything
Mr Alexander is a past master of spin and smoke and mirrors
Sid
labour have had no idea's of their own for years about anything
Mr Alexander is a past master of spin and smoke and mirrors
Sid
#
2011-11-21 11:56
Ah Yes ! Did you all see that the Ayreshire couple who won a zillion on the lottery just donated One million pounds to the SNP independence fund !
I wonder if that will be on
the BBC news tonight ?
I wonder if that will be on
the BBC news tonight ?
#
2011-11-21 12:33
If it is rhymer it will probably be under the title of "Euro millions Lottery winners throw away their winnings".
More than likely though it will not even get a mention.
More than likely though it will not even get a mention.
#
2011-11-21 12:04
O/T Latest poll results, the poll was commissioned by the Daily Mail. You have been warned, now where is that darkened room
.../?mode=article&site=hs&id=N0775791321874744681A
.../?mode=article&site=hs&id=N0775791321874744681A
#
2011-11-21 12:21
Quoting snowthistle:
53% AGAINST independence? I don't think so! As no details of methodology etc are provided it is impossible to properly analyse the reported results. But I very much doubt if either the questions asked or the answers given truly justify this interpretation.
Referendum Debate: www.referendumdebate.com
O/T Latest poll results, the poll was commissioned by the Daily Mail. You have been warned, now where is that darkened room
.../?mode=article&site=hs&id=N0775791321874744681A
53% AGAINST independence? I don't think so! As no details of methodology etc are provided it is impossible to properly analyse the reported results. But I very much doubt if either the questions asked or the answers given truly justify this interpretation.
Referendum Debate: www.referendumdebate.com
#
2011-11-21 13:49
Snowthistle
“ O/T Latest poll results, the poll was commissioned by the Daily Mail. You have been warned, now where is that darkened room
.../?mode=article&site=hs&id=N0775791321874744681A “
Progressive Scottish Opinion… here is one they prepared earlier… a couple of weeks before the NuLabour crash in Scotland last May.
scotgoespop.blogspot.com/.../...
I was especially drawn to the last paragraph:
“ However, the huge health warning here is that Progressive Scottish Opinion's track record is...well, rubbish. Their weekly polls in the 2007 race were as mad as a bucket of frogs, and the fact that they're quoting constituency vote figures in this poll for the Greens who (as far as I'm aware) are only standing on the list doesn't exactly inspire huge confidence. “
“ O/T Latest poll results, the poll was commissioned by the Daily Mail. You have been warned, now where is that darkened room
.../?mode=article&site=hs&id=N0775791321874744681A “
Progressive Scottish Opinion… here is one they prepared earlier… a couple of weeks before the NuLabour crash in Scotland last May.
scotgoespop.blogspot.com/.../...
I was especially drawn to the last paragraph:
“ However, the huge health warning here is that Progressive Scottish Opinion's track record is...well, rubbish. Their weekly polls in the 2007 race were as mad as a bucket of frogs, and the fact that they're quoting constituency vote figures in this poll for the Greens who (as far as I'm aware) are only standing on the list doesn't exactly inspire huge confidence. “
#
2011-11-21 12:13
If Mr Alexander had inspected the ground on his scouting expedition into devo-max territory he would have seen the old cold campfires of a strange Scottish tribe who used to be there but have moved on. The old arrow heads and the black and yellow arrow feathers would have given him a clue.
Look over to the far horizon, squint your eyes a wee bit,see the smoke signals!, hear the noise!, that's where the real battle is it's the status quo OR full independence.
Your cavalry is too late to blow the bugle of distraction. You all had your chance and you let Scotland down.
You are too late we're going to win or we're going to lose without you.
Look over to the far horizon, squint your eyes a wee bit,see the smoke signals!, hear the noise!, that's where the real battle is it's the status quo OR full independence.
Your cavalry is too late to blow the bugle of distraction. You all had your chance and you let Scotland down.
You are too late we're going to win or we're going to lose without you.
#
2011-11-21 12:54
Win CMD, we're gonnae win! Even if we lose the battle on the day by a single percentage point, we've won the war because they'll never keep or never be able to keep any promises they make in the campaign, but we can.
#
2011-11-21 13:39
Before Labour get ahead of themselves here could some one please educate the Labour party into what the difference is between the Scottish Government making a decision and the Scottish Government carrying out a consultation.
bbc.co.uk/.../...
bbc.co.uk/.../...
#
2011-11-21 13:48
As per usual Arbroath, they have engaged their jaws before their brains are in gear. Just like the consultation on university mergers. They claimed the SNP were running about willy nilly shutting everything down right up until it turned out they weren't.
#
2011-11-21 13:53
I guess that the rumour must be true after all.
The rumour that says all Labour politicians must have a frontal lobotomy before standing as an M.P. or M.S.P. :D
The rumour that says all Labour politicians must have a frontal lobotomy before standing as an M.P. or M.S.P. :D
#
2011-11-21 14:11
Arbroath1320
“ Before Labour get ahead of themselves here could some one please educate the Labour party into what the difference is between the Scottish Government making a decision and the Scottish Government carrying out a consultation. “
Arby….. its more beneficial that I spend my time to go out and watch grass grow than try to educate NuLabour.
As for the EBC… what can I say….. zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
“ Before Labour get ahead of themselves here could some one please educate the Labour party into what the difference is between the Scottish Government making a decision and the Scottish Government carrying out a consultation. “
Arby….. its more beneficial that I spend my time to go out and watch grass grow than try to educate NuLabour.
As for the EBC… what can I say….. zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
#
2011-11-21 13:51
On the Demo-max issue it was quite clear that the SNP made an offer to the Unionists that they would consider putting the question in the referendum if the Unionists came up with a definition of Demo-max. Now all I hear from the Unionists, backed up by the Scottish nmedia, is that if the SNP want a Demo-max question they must define it. Don't they realise that wasn't the deal being offered or, more likely, they are playing silly b****rs again???
#
2011-11-21 13:59
Hi Arb,
The Tory's Holyrood spokesperson, Davidson, raised this at FMQs. The FM pointed out the difference to her between a consultation and a decision.
It appears Labour have jumped on Davidson's bandwagon, and are using their propagandists at the BBC to spin this in a negative way.
I note that the BBC have been very selective with their list of proposals contained in the consultation.
The Tory's Holyrood spokesperson, Davidson, raised this at FMQs. The FM pointed out the difference to her between a consultation and a decision.
It appears Labour have jumped on Davidson's bandwagon, and are using their propagandists at the BBC to spin this in a negative way.
I note that the BBC have been very selective with their list of proposals contained in the consultation.
#
2011-11-21 14:10
Yes, that's right. I remember her trying, and failing, on that point. Good old A.S. did put her down gently, after all she is still trying to find her wee feet as Tory leader.
Typical Labour though. Where other parties lead, be they SNP, Tory, Lib Dem or any one else, the Labour party is sure to follow.
Wasn't that a nursery rhyme? :D
Typical Labour though. Where other parties lead, be they SNP, Tory, Lib Dem or any one else, the Labour party is sure to follow.
Wasn't that a nursery rhyme? :D
#
2011-11-21 17:06
Dougie Alexander wants Labour to 'be seen' to be reacting to the changed political landscape in Scotland. Thats what i detect from his party. Always blaming others for their own failings. What you see is not what you get. An example of this when Dougie in an interview two days ago blamed the SNP for his Sister Wendys fall from grace, not you understand anything to do with the fact of illegal donations and her own financial irregularities. Then he makes a call to his party to stop attacking the SNP as its going down badly with the public!
So im afraid, Dougie and his Labour party score a big fat zero on my truth barometer. Nah Dougie, people can see right through you these days, thats the problem for you and your party.. And for all i care, you might as well be talking to my hand as this face aint listening.
So im afraid, Dougie and his Labour party score a big fat zero on my truth barometer. Nah Dougie, people can see right through you these days, thats the problem for you and your party.. And for all i care, you might as well be talking to my hand as this face aint listening.
#
2011-11-21 17:30
I was especially drawn to the following section of Wee Duggies speech:
“ But just like IBM had in the 1980’s, in the years after 1999 we failed to fully comprehend how devolution altered the environment in which we operated.
And as a result, it was the Scottish National Party that sought to claim ownership of both the rising sense of prosperity that the Labour Government created but also the, pride, and possibility that devolution contributed to Scotland’s own sense of itself over the same period. “
Scottish National Party that sought to claim ownership of the rising sense of prosperity that the Labour Government created
Prosperity & NuLabour in one sentence, now that’s an excellent demonstration of an oxymoron.
“ But just like IBM had in the 1980’s, in the years after 1999 we failed to fully comprehend how devolution altered the environment in which we operated.
And as a result, it was the Scottish National Party that sought to claim ownership of both the rising sense of prosperity that the Labour Government created but also the, pride, and possibility that devolution contributed to Scotland’s own sense of itself over the same period. “
Scottish National Party that sought to claim ownership of the rising sense of prosperity that the Labour Government created
Prosperity & NuLabour in one sentence, now that’s an excellent demonstration of an oxymoron.
#
2011-11-21 18:02
OT For Clarity - A two question referendum
stephennoon.blogspot.com/.../...
“ Over the past few days we've seen some comment on how a two question referendum in Scotland might work. People are asking what happens if devo max gets more yes votes than independence in such a ballot?
As the First Minister has made clear, the SNP will be campaigning full square for independence in the referendum. He is also open to including a question in the referendum on extending devolved responsibilitie s. And the Scottish Government has previously set out how this would work.
In the model proposed in the draft referendum bill in the last session, the choice would not be framed as an either/or. This is where the misunderstandin g (or refusal to understand) arises.
Instead, the consultation paper sets out that voters would be asked, first, whether they want the Scottish Parliament to have responsibility for all matters except defence and foreign affairs. Then, they would be asked whether they want the additional powers that would take us to independence. “
A clear and concise win-win outcome for the SNP… I thing that this scenario is what the Unionist are rattled about.
Before anyone states the blindingly obvious, I am forSeparation Independence.
NNS can you not ask Mr Noon to offer one of his articles to this site?
stephennoon.blogspot.com/.../...
“ Over the past few days we've seen some comment on how a two question referendum in Scotland might work. People are asking what happens if devo max gets more yes votes than independence in such a ballot?
As the First Minister has made clear, the SNP will be campaigning full square for independence in the referendum. He is also open to including a question in the referendum on extending devolved responsibilitie s. And the Scottish Government has previously set out how this would work.
In the model proposed in the draft referendum bill in the last session, the choice would not be framed as an either/or. This is where the misunderstandin g (or refusal to understand) arises.
Instead, the consultation paper sets out that voters would be asked, first, whether they want the Scottish Parliament to have responsibility for all matters except defence and foreign affairs. Then, they would be asked whether they want the additional powers that would take us to independence. “
A clear and concise win-win outcome for the SNP… I thing that this scenario is what the Unionist are rattled about.
Before anyone states the blindingly obvious, I am for
NNS can you not ask Mr Noon to offer one of his articles to this site?
#
2011-11-21 18:13
Would Dougie be looking for change if NU Labour had won the Hollyrood elections. No chance. This is just a smokescreen as they do not have a clue where they are going. Dougie and co could start by standing up for Scotland and getting our territorial waters back that Blair stole for a start. Then he could do the Crown Estate, Ariport Taxes and Corporation Tax but then he would just be copying the SNP. I have heard of no ideas for making Scotland a better more prosperous place from Nu Labour only how they can make Labour better for themselves.
#
2011-11-21 18:35
This from the pages of the Scotsman.
Monday, November 21, 2011 at 11:00 AM Margaret Curran has now said that we neglected our voters, and there may be a grain of truth in that claim, but there are two sides to every coin. What many commentators conveniently choose to forget is that it was our voters who deserted US. It is true that there was an unexpected bout of rain on polling day which caught us wrong footed, but that did not prevent SNP supporters from leaving their armchairs and making their way to the polling stations. Everybody is having a go at the Labour Party but no-one is blaming those Labour voters who changed their allegiance or who stayed at home. I just hope their collective bad conscience doesn't keep them awake at night. It is they who should be apologizing and not Ms Curran.
Monday, November 21, 2011 at 11:00 AM Margaret Curran has now said that we neglected our voters, and there may be a grain of truth in that claim, but there are two sides to every coin. What many commentators conveniently choose to forget is that it was our voters who deserted US. It is true that there was an unexpected bout of rain on polling day which caught us wrong footed, but that did not prevent SNP supporters from leaving their armchairs and making their way to the polling stations. Everybody is having a go at the Labour Party but no-one is blaming those Labour voters who changed their allegiance or who stayed at home. I just hope their collective bad conscience doesn't keep them awake at night. It is they who should be apologizing and not Ms Curran.
#
2011-11-21 22:34
Nice to see "stairheid rammy" Curran has not changed.
Quote:
Erm no ya dunderheid, it was YOU who abandoned your voters!
Quote:
That's it stairheid, don't apologise to your supporters just stick the knife in and blame them for your ignorance and incompetence.
Quote:
What many commentators conveniently choose to forget is that it was our voters who deserted US
Erm no ya dunderheid, it was YOU who abandoned your voters!
Quote:
I just hope their collective bad conscience doesn't keep them awake at night.
That's it stairheid, don't apologise to your supporters just stick the knife in and blame them for your ignorance and incompetence.
#
2011-11-21 19:30
Correcting part of the quote above.
------------------------------------
Monday, November 21, 2011 at 11:00 AM Margaret Curran has now said that we neglected our voters, and there may be a grain of truth in that claim, but there are two sides to everycoin. con
----------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Monday, November 21, 2011 at 11:00 AM Margaret Curran has now said that we neglected our voters, and there may be a grain of truth in that claim, but there are two sides to every
----------------------------------------
#
2011-11-21 22:11
Labour in Scotland are the Ratners of Scottish politics, peddling crap, no wonder the electorate are not buying into it. And along comes oor Duggie to put a different wrapper on it, it just wont wash.
#
2011-11-22 06:52
Reactionary Labour, triangulating themselves to beat the SNP with the interests of the people of Scotland a mere post-hoc justification. If they do get their act together I can see people choosing the Devo max or 'footery' option. Someone needs to go on the negative about this and point out all the obstacles to making Devo max work - it's only in the gift of the English who don't wan it, we will still Invade foreign countries and host nukes - as the MSM will trumpet it for all it is worth if they think it will save the union and the SNP won't go on the negative as they believe in positive campaigning.
#
2011-11-24 19:27
I ken I'm juist bein suspicious but arch Unionist Douglas Alexander reveals he's seen the light and now supports juist a wee bit mair Devo but cannae say exactly how much! It's gey obvious that Alexander has to put flesh on the banes o this or be seen to be flying a kite to see who in the Labour ranks will fall in behind him. Unionists frae aw three pairties are aye demandin a referendum on Independence ASAP yet naebody seems tae ken ony mair whit the political Status Quo is! Ye cuidna mak it up!
Donate to Newsnet Scotland
Latest Comments
- Confusion over Cameron’s new p...
MAYBE, he just , for the first time saw ... - Confusion over Cameron’s new p...
I happened to tune into Westminster's Sc... - Why in the world do we need Tr...
Unfortunately, Jersey and Guernsey would... - Confusion over Cameron’s new p...
1014? Ah yes, that was when Duncan I's w... - Confusion over Cameron’s new p...
Aaaah, I can just see it. Millionaire Da... - Confusion over Cameron’s new p...
If Cameron decided to wholeheartedly sup... - Confusion over Cameron’s new p...
Oh dear. Another Labour MP living up to ... - Confusion over Cameron’s new p...
Sorry to bring up something that has bee... - UK government presses for 'giv...
I wonder if Wastemonster are trying to p... - Confusion over Cameron’s new p...
Not that I would in any way condone such... - UK government presses for 'giv...
Perhaps we should send Moore and his coh... - UK government presses for 'giv...
Here's the link. huffingtonpost.co.uk/..... - Why in the world do we need Tr...
The day's coming, with most people in th... - Confusion over Cameron’s new p...
oldnat "Even more easily, Westminster ca... - Confusion over Cameron’s new p...
Interesting reports that our Labour MPs ...