Saturday, 18 February 2012 15:33
36 Comments
by a Newsnet reporter
An SNP MSP is backing Inclusion Scotland in condemning the UK Government's proposed Workfare Scheme for disabled people as a farce. The disability rights groups is disgusted that the UK Dept of Work and Pensions is currently considering proposals to force long term sick and disabled people to work unpaid or have their benefits cut.
Inclusion Scotland is a national network of local disabled people's organisations whose main aim is to ensure that disabled people have a voice in policy and decision making. The largest local member organisation is Glasgow Disability Alliance with 1200 members.
The UK government has admitted that its plans to reduce benefits are driven by the need to cut government spending, and not primarily by a desire to improve the quality of life or opportunities of disabled people.
Bob Doris, MSP for Glasgow, says that the issue provides another reason for devolving control of benefits to the Scottish Parliament.
Under the new plans to be announced by Westminster, sick and disabled people receiving employment and support allowance, who have been assessed as being in the work-related activity group (Wrag), could be forced into unpaid "work experience" for charities, public bodies and private companies. Those affected include people who have been diagnosed with terminal cancer but have more than six months to live; accident and stroke victims; and people with mental health issues.
The Royal College of Psychiatrists is concerned that job centre staff will now be making assessments of people with mental health problems despite being untrained in mental health issues. The College believes that claimants could be forced into inappropriate placements in order that private companies contracted by the DWP to get claimants into employment can meet their government targets.
Refusal to participate in the scheme will lead to a loss of benefits. A spokesman for the Department of Work and Pensions said:
"Ministers strongly feel there is a link-up to support those moving close to the labour market, and the individual's responsibility to engage with the support. Ministers feel sanctions are an incentive for people to comply with their responsibility."
Inclusion Scotland's Chief Executive, Bill Scott, said:
"Disabled people fought for their freedom and most of the old institutions have now been closed. But it seems as though even though we are now allowed to live amongst the non-disabled we are still to be forced to work for nothing as a penalty for being different.
"I thought that slavery had ended over 200 years ago but forcing anyone to work for nothing is just that. We also have real fears that this could damage some people's health – particularly those with mental health issues and variable conditions like Multiple Sclerosis.”
Mr Doris said:
"If the UK Government press on with plans to compel terminally ill cancer patients and those with disabilities and mental health issues into long term compulsory unpaid work or to lose benefits is simply unacceptable.
"For the DWP to call this an 'incentive' is simply farcical and like so much of its welfare reforms the UK Government need to think again before significant and long term damage is done to many of Scotland's most vulnerable groups.
"If work and pensions were devolved to the Scottish Parliament we would be able to have a system based on fairness that meets the needs and demands of everyone in Scotland including the most needy and sick people who are limited in their ability to work."
Comments
#
2012-02-19 01:31
I really am struggling to find the words to describe a bunch of multi millionaires who think it is a good idea to force the terminally ill into slavery to increase the profits of companies which already earn billions.
Well I'm not actually but the moderators would object and I'd likely breach Godwin's Law.
Well I'm not actually but the moderators would object and I'd likely breach Godwin's Law.
#
2012-02-19 02:24
Careful Fungus. Remember I'm just back from an enforced absence due my suffering from moderators upsetting disease. M.U.D. for short. :D
#
2012-02-19 11:32
C'mon Arby. Is not a disease, is a syndrome. You are not sick, is just your normal paranoid self /;-)
#
2012-02-19 02:29
I do not intend to put down or demean in any way the good work that D.W.P. employees currently do but if this ridiculous plan goes ahead are we going to have to totally retrain the D.W.P. personnel?
Surely only properly trained doctors and nurses can make medically judgemental calls on the fitness, or otherwise, on whether some one is fit to work.
If D.W.P. personnel are to make these judgements then I am seriously concerned about the outcomes when they send some one back to work who has been wrongly diagnosed as being fit to work.
Surely only properly trained doctors and nurses can make medically judgemental calls on the fitness, or otherwise, on whether some one is fit to work.
If D.W.P. personnel are to make these judgements then I am seriously concerned about the outcomes when they send some one back to work who has been wrongly diagnosed as being fit to work.
#
2012-02-19 12:23
'Surely only properly trained doctors and nurses can make medically judgemental calls on the fitness, or otherwise, on whether some one is fit to work'
Yes, you would think so wouldn't you? Sadly that isn't the case. When someone claims a health related benefit (ESA or DLA) they are sent for a medical assessment with ATOS. This 'medical' is can be carried out by a nurse or a doctor who does not require any particular expertise in the condition the claimant is presenting with. The result of this is that pretty much everyone who attends a medical is found fit for work regardless of their condition.
The DWP usually base their decision solely on the ATOS medical and tend to ignore the claimants own evidence, GP evidence etc.
In my last job I used to attend benefit tribunals with clients many of whom had serious physical and mental health conditions. At that time roughly 75% of people found fit for work by ATOS had that decision overturned. The system has been a scandal for years and make no mistake the tories are just taking Labour's disgraceful policies to their logical conclusion.
Google ATOS and see what this terrible company have been doing to some our most vulnerable people for years. All paid for by the taxpayer.
Yes, you would think so wouldn't you? Sadly that isn't the case. When someone claims a health related benefit (ESA or DLA) they are sent for a medical assessment with ATOS. This 'medical' is can be carried out by a nurse or a doctor who does not require any particular expertise in the condition the claimant is presenting with. The result of this is that pretty much everyone who attends a medical is found fit for work regardless of their condition.
The DWP usually base their decision solely on the ATOS medical and tend to ignore the claimants own evidence, GP evidence etc.
In my last job I used to attend benefit tribunals with clients many of whom had serious physical and mental health conditions. At that time roughly 75% of people found fit for work by ATOS had that decision overturned. The system has been a scandal for years and make no mistake the tories are just taking Labour's disgraceful policies to their logical conclusion.
Google ATOS and see what this terrible company have been doing to some our most vulnerable people for years. All paid for by the taxpayer.
#
2012-02-19 18:43
This is already happening It started out under Labour, it's there scheme made even worse by the Coalition.
Speaking to one Social Services guy, they've never known anyone to get through, there is a incredible increase in appeals, of which, if you get representation, your chance of success is 70%, but the firm still gets paid regardless.
And they tend to call you straight back for another assessment
So you have cancer, and a physiotherapy nurse says you can work
At least one guy's family apologised for him not appearing at the appeal, because he had died, after being declared fit for work
Speaking to one Social Services guy, they've never known anyone to get through, there is a incredible increase in appeals, of which, if you get representation, your chance of success is 70%, but the firm still gets paid regardless.
And they tend to call you straight back for another assessment
So you have cancer, and a physiotherapy nurse says you can work
At least one guy's family apologised for him not appearing at the appeal, because he had died, after being declared fit for work
#
2012-02-19 22:21
@randomScot,
I can back this up. Although I am working in a different role now I used to be involved in welfare rights advice. From the introduction of ESA until the present day I have never heard of a single person being awarded benefit following their medical. Not one. The vast majority of people who attend a medical get zero points even when their condition is obvious to the naked eye.
I gave up welfare rights work last year to move to a new job but during my last four years in my previous role I attended benefit appeals with numerous people with cancer both terminal and treatable, someone with Down Syndrome, chronic arthritis, severe depression, PTSD and schizophrenia as well as numerous other mental health conditions.
Many of those suffering from physical ailments developed mental health conditions as a direct result of how they were treated by ATOS and the DWP.
Apart from being inhumane it is a waste of money dragging unfit people through a system that offers them little to no help.
Most heartbreaking of all were the number of people I dealt with who could not believe what was happening to them because they'd worked and weren't like those people ripping off the system. Fact is as far as the new set up goes EVERYONE is a cheat.
It's shameful and frankly unforgivable that it was instigated by Labour -that the tories are carrying it on now is to be expected. But no one should be in any doubt that this is a Labour policy and that it has been so enthusiasticall y embraced by the tories speaks volumes.
I can back this up. Although I am working in a different role now I used to be involved in welfare rights advice. From the introduction of ESA until the present day I have never heard of a single person being awarded benefit following their medical. Not one. The vast majority of people who attend a medical get zero points even when their condition is obvious to the naked eye.
I gave up welfare rights work last year to move to a new job but during my last four years in my previous role I attended benefit appeals with numerous people with cancer both terminal and treatable, someone with Down Syndrome, chronic arthritis, severe depression, PTSD and schizophrenia as well as numerous other mental health conditions.
Many of those suffering from physical ailments developed mental health conditions as a direct result of how they were treated by ATOS and the DWP.
Apart from being inhumane it is a waste of money dragging unfit people through a system that offers them little to no help.
Most heartbreaking of all were the number of people I dealt with who could not believe what was happening to them because they'd worked and weren't like those people ripping off the system. Fact is as far as the new set up goes EVERYONE is a cheat.
It's shameful and frankly unforgivable that it was instigated by Labour -that the tories are carrying it on now is to be expected. But no one should be in any doubt that this is a Labour policy and that it has been so enthusiasticall y embraced by the tories speaks volumes.
#
2012-02-19 02:48
I fear I could get banned from NNS if I say too much!
This is disgusting and driven by cost cutting. An easy target for the government of millionaires, we need control of the welfare system.
This should make people in Scotland wake up and realise that independence is the only way forward.
This is disgusting and driven by cost cutting. An easy target for the government of millionaires, we need control of the welfare system.
This should make people in Scotland wake up and realise that independence is the only way forward.
#
2012-02-19 02:57
Don't worry C2 you'll be in good company. There are a lot of us who been through various stages of upsetting the moderators, but hey we all get over it in the end.
If you have any problems there is always "The Darkened Room" open 24/7 and available to all members of NNS. It really is quite a soothing place to visit. :D
If you have any problems there is always "The Darkened Room" open 24/7 and available to all members of NNS. It really is quite a soothing place to visit. :D
#
2012-02-19 12:05
Quoting C2DEalba:
Totally agree though I fail to understand the English folk, why they put up with this bunch of rich useless twits is beyond me. I have a little sympathy for them as we have a choice I only wish I could vote in advance just in case I don't last till 2014.
I fear I could get banned from NNS if I say too much!
This is disgusting and driven by cost cutting. An easy target for the government of millionaires, we need control of the welfare system.
This should make people in Scotland wake up and realise that independence is the only way forward.
Totally agree though I fail to understand the English folk, why they put up with this bunch of rich useless twits is beyond me. I have a little sympathy for them as we have a choice I only wish I could vote in advance just in case I don't last till 2014.
#
2012-02-19 13:17
Completely agree. If we want to retain any sort of welfare state then it has to be independence.
#
2012-02-19 03:10
oldnat
Normally I am against swearing but this takes the f\/c*ing biscuit. If I come along to the darkened room tonight will you point them out?
What a very nasty right-wing load of trash the LibDum & Tory parties are.
Normally I am against swearing but this takes the f\/c*ing biscuit. If I come along to the darkened room tonight will you point them out?
What a very nasty right-wing load of trash the LibDum & Tory parties are.
#
2012-02-19 03:19
I note that Tesco, one of the participating Companies, has changed its mind:
guardian.co.uk/.../...
But not before this:
independent.co.uk/.../...
And another traunche of Companies have done the same:
independent.co.uk/.../...
With a bit of luck this may be ConDems Poll Tax moment... unfortunately whats the alternative... the Red Tories.
guardian.co.uk/.../...
But not before this:
independent.co.uk/.../...
And another traunche of Companies have done the same:
independent.co.uk/.../...
With a bit of luck this may be ConDems Poll Tax moment... unfortunately whats the alternative... the Red Tories.
#
2012-02-19 14:03
Quote:
or.."we are quite happy to go on taking unemployed people and putting them to work with no wages. Please just spin it a bit so our customers don't complain"
If you want to give unemployed kids a bit of work experience then that is great. But pay them the going rate for the work they do!!
Quote:Tesco said. "We have suggested to DWP that to avoid any misunderstandin g about the voluntary nature of the scheme, this threat of losing benefit should be removed."
or.."we are quite happy to go on taking unemployed people and putting them to work with no wages. Please just spin it a bit so our customers don't complain"
If you want to give unemployed kids a bit of work experience then that is great. But pay them the going rate for the work they do!!
#
2012-02-19 08:05
I'm led to believe Scotland has a much higher disability rate than other countries.I use the phrase "led to believe" because it could,of course,be misinformation.But it seems reasonable to assume that Scotlands apalling health record would lead to higher numbers of disabled people.At last we have a Scottish government with a bit of ambition for our people.A government that wants to raise the Scottish people.And that includes disabled people along with everybody else.
#
2012-02-19 08:34
mealer
What may be interesting is what the ConDems do with Remploy. After all, I believe, NuLabour streamlined it ready for sell-off.
If the ConDems were to pump some money into this organisation to help it grow it would take more disabled people on. But, as we have seen, I guess they are not into helping to get those disabled who can work back into paid employment, and growth is an alien concept to them.
Talking of growth another rumour that is doing the rounds is that Gideon has not much money to throw around so he may reduce corporation tax. But was it not him that told Alex that reducing CT was an irresponsible and dangerous act. But let’s wait and see on that one.
What may be interesting is what the ConDems do with Remploy. After all, I believe, NuLabour streamlined it ready for sell-off.
If the ConDems were to pump some money into this organisation to help it grow it would take more disabled people on. But, as we have seen, I guess they are not into helping to get those disabled who can work back into paid employment, and growth is an alien concept to them.
Talking of growth another rumour that is doing the rounds is that Gideon has not much money to throw around so he may reduce corporation tax. But was it not him that told Alex that reducing CT was an irresponsible and dangerous act. But let’s wait and see on that one.
#
2012-02-19 09:59
Cutting the benefits to medically certified disabled folk is probably as low as a Government can get.
There are plenty of non-certified beneficiaries around, especially in and around London, where mega-savings are ripe for the taking.
Years ago I learned that war-wounded residents in military care homes, had their disability pensions awarded on the basis of the shorter the stump - the larger the pension.
Presumably this is still the position.
I recall never hearing a politician speak on the mechanics of their decisions in this field - wonder why.
Yet mickey mouse, able-bodied 'soldiers' seem to do well enough from some mysterious way of calculations of benefits, using our money.
A disabled soldier from such groups is an extremely rare occurance.
There are plenty of non-certified beneficiaries around, especially in and around London, where mega-savings are ripe for the taking.
Years ago I learned that war-wounded residents in military care homes, had their disability pensions awarded on the basis of the shorter the stump - the larger the pension.
Presumably this is still the position.
I recall never hearing a politician speak on the mechanics of their decisions in this field - wonder why.
Yet mickey mouse, able-bodied 'soldiers' seem to do well enough from some mysterious way of calculations of benefits, using our money.
A disabled soldier from such groups is an extremely rare occurance.
#
2012-02-19 18:45
Nope.
The new position is "can you lift anything with your stumps?"
"Yes?"
Good, you can work, so no sickness benefit for you
The new position is "can you lift anything with your stumps?"
"Yes?"
Good, you can work, so no sickness benefit for you
#
2012-02-19 19:00
At the risk of playing devil's advocate an above knee amputee would have much less function than a below knee amputee
#
2012-02-19 11:40
Wait till one of the Human Rights' attorneys take them to court and win.
The compensations are going to be horrendous and who's going to pay them?
Us, the taxpayers.
The compensations are going to be horrendous and who's going to pay them?
Us, the taxpayers.
#
2012-02-19 12:01
The hypocrisy of Tesco is breathtaking. What did they think would happen when they signed up for this? they're making 3.8 billion in profits (boohoo it's down from the previous year). And now that their customers are rightly complaining about this, they see how "wrong" it is? Crap! What's to stop them giving each of these workers their groceries for the week. That would be anything between 50 and 150 quid dependent on the size of the individual's family. And I'm not talking value brands either. It's not income so shouldn't affect their benefits, and dear old tesco could write it off against tax as a charitable donation.
I'm with Fungus. Multi-millionaires telling the poor and vulnerable that they have to do better. It's obscene.
And the liberals who are supporting this should feel black burning shame. We know the tories are revolting, but the belief was that liberals cared about folk. clearly not
I'm with Fungus. Multi-millionaires telling the poor and vulnerable that they have to do better. It's obscene.
And the liberals who are supporting this should feel black burning shame. We know the tories are revolting, but the belief was that liberals cared about folk. clearly not
#
2012-02-19 12:11
ed quine
Payment in kind is counted towards income as far as I am aware
They may have changed this rule so I could be wrong
Payment in kind is counted towards income as far as I am aware
They may have changed this rule so I could be wrong
#
2012-02-19 12:20
Only qualified medical personnel should be allowed to make decisions regarding the condition of anybody on disability benefit.
#
2012-02-19 13:17
Speaking as someone with an interest in Disability Benefit, I'd like to point out that I worked for 33 years, had ZERO days off sick in the last 9 of those years, even though I was becoming more ill every month; with Rheumatoid Arthritis and concommitant problems along with other Medical problems.
I was a fit and very active person all my life and am now reduced to having assistance to wash my hair and complete dressing myself. Some days I can take over an hour just to get on my feet, and I suffer from fatigue which is extremely debilitating. I've lost count of the number of times I've fallen over, spilt boiling water, had painful mouth ulcers, swelling and pain in my joints and all of these are common to my illness.
All of the above is an example of better days when my disease flares up I am almost completely incapacitated.
I'm not writing this to whinge, simply to point out that I feel I've contributed a great deal in NI and Taxes over my 33 year working life and feel it is utterly wrong to try to "force" me back into the workforce! I refuse to be judged by a clerical officer - or anyone who introduces themselves as a "health professional", but who has to ask you to explain what your illness means to you in your daily life!
I have excellent support from my GP/Hospital Consultants/Physio and Occupational Therapists and Specialist nurses - but not one of them would attempt to describe a "typical" day for me.
It is disgraceful that there is even a possibility of my being sent back into the workforce, especially when young people who are not close to retirement age cannot even get a job.
Cameron chose to receive DLA for his child; as was his right under the rules. Now that his wee boy is gone, Cameron is free to tell the poorest in society that he cannot afford to pay DLA, but a millionaire can claim it.
Ach! no words can describe my contempt for them.
I was a fit and very active person all my life and am now reduced to having assistance to wash my hair and complete dressing myself. Some days I can take over an hour just to get on my feet, and I suffer from fatigue which is extremely debilitating. I've lost count of the number of times I've fallen over, spilt boiling water, had painful mouth ulcers, swelling and pain in my joints and all of these are common to my illness.
All of the above is an example of better days when my disease flares up I am almost completely incapacitated.
I'm not writing this to whinge, simply to point out that I feel I've contributed a great deal in NI and Taxes over my 33 year working life and feel it is utterly wrong to try to "force" me back into the workforce! I refuse to be judged by a clerical officer - or anyone who introduces themselves as a "health professional", but who has to ask you to explain what your illness means to you in your daily life!
I have excellent support from my GP/Hospital Consultants/Physio and Occupational Therapists and Specialist nurses - but not one of them would attempt to describe a "typical" day for me.
It is disgraceful that there is even a possibility of my being sent back into the workforce, especially when young people who are not close to retirement age cannot even get a job.
Cameron chose to receive DLA for his child; as was his right under the rules. Now that his wee boy is gone, Cameron is free to tell the poorest in society that he cannot afford to pay DLA, but a millionaire can claim it.
Ach! no words can describe my contempt for them.
#
2012-02-19 22:33
@brusque,
Sorry to hear that and if it's any comfort to you, you're not alone. They treat everyone like a cheat. I don't know if you already use the 'Benefits and Work' forums but they're a good source of peer support and advice.
Sorry to hear that and if it's any comfort to you, you're not alone. They treat everyone like a cheat. I don't know if you already use the 'Benefits and Work' forums but they're a good source of peer support and advice.
#
2012-02-19 23:06
Quoting Jenny2603:
I thank you for your comment Jenny, and welcome to NNS, I've not spoken to you before.
You are right, I'm not alone, and make full use of the support services I'm fortunate enough to have here. I've not used Benefit and Work Forums, but will have a look now you've mentioned it. Thank you.
@brusque,
Sorry to hear that and if it's any comfort to you, you're not alone. They treat everyone like a cheat. I don't know if you already use the 'Benefits and Work' forums but they're a good source of peer support and advice.
I thank you for your comment Jenny, and welcome to NNS, I've not spoken to you before.
You are right, I'm not alone, and make full use of the support services I'm fortunate enough to have here. I've not used Benefit and Work Forums, but will have a look now you've mentioned it. Thank you.
#
2012-02-19 14:10
I am staying out of this one as I cannot say how I feel about this and get away with it from the mods
#
2012-02-19 22:29
Yep. Benefits are reserved. Google ATOS or visit the Benefits and Work forum for a taste of the inhumanity that's been unleashed by Labour and enthusiasticall y embraced by the condems.
#
2012-02-19 20:38
In my line of work I accompanied a claimant to one of these assessments recently. He was a man who's wife had been diagnosed with terminal cancer after which he began to suffer panic attacks anxiety and depression. He had always worked up til then, but once she passes away he was left with two sons, one disabled. He describes how he had no time to grieve as he had to look after his sons, but he became more and more depressed and anxious and was eventually referred to mental health services.
His appointment was for 13.30 but I had to leave with him at 11.30 so that I could sit with him for a few hours and help calm him down him before we went in.
The chap doing the assessment had never worked in mental health and my client became more and more anxious as he was asked to describe how it felt after he had not been able to sleep for three days !!!
After the meeting I again had to take the client for a coffee to calm him, as he repeatedly assured me that 'he knew he was going to get his benefits cut'
It really is a disgrace, but it's necessary for the UK to save all this money cos how else would we be able to afford the money needed to have a nuclear deterrent based in Jockland and have the cash to be able to afford to fire £250, 000 javelin missiles up the arse of a camel, in the middle east.
Don't get me started about the flipping socialist labour party who started all this :-(
His appointment was for 13.30 but I had to leave with him at 11.30 so that I could sit with him for a few hours and help calm him down him before we went in.
The chap doing the assessment had never worked in mental health and my client became more and more anxious as he was asked to describe how it felt after he had not been able to sleep for three days !!!
After the meeting I again had to take the client for a coffee to calm him, as he repeatedly assured me that 'he knew he was going to get his benefits cut'
It really is a disgrace, but it's necessary for the UK to save all this money cos how else would we be able to afford the money needed to have a nuclear deterrent based in Jockland and have the cash to be able to afford to fire £250, 000 javelin missiles up the arse of a camel, in the middle east.
Don't get me started about the flipping socialist labour party who started all this :-(
#
2012-02-19 22:27
@patrickotic,
Was in a similar line of work until last year and the client you describe is entirely typical. And yes it did start in under Labour who we now know would sell their granny for glue if it kept them in power. No better than tories.
Was in a similar line of work until last year and the client you describe is entirely typical. And yes it did start in under Labour who we now know would sell their granny for glue if it kept them in power. No better than tories.
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