Wednesday, 22 February 2012 16:19
130 Comments
By a Newsnet reporter 
The confusion that has emerged at the heart of the Conservative party on the issue of further devolution for Scotland was further apparent today when UK PM David Cameron refused to reveal what extra powers might be devolved if Scotland opts to reject independence.
The Tory leader was asked by SNP MP Angus MacNeil to name one power that he considered appropriate as part of the “further devolution” package he said last week could be put “on the table” in the event of a win for the No campaign.
However Mr Cameron declined to name any area and instead accused the SNP of being afraid of the referendum.
Speaking in the House of Commons, Mr MacNeil asked the Prime Minister: "Last week in Edinburgh the Prime Minister said there were more powers on the table for Scotland but couldn't name any. A few months ago he mocked the idea of Scotland controlling its own oil wealth. In the Scotland Bill, even the Crown Estate was too big.”
“Can the Prime Minister now name one power that he has on his mind from his latest u-turn?"
Mr Cameron said: "I didn't think that the SNP favoured devolution. I thought that they favoured separation (sic), yet as soon as you're offered a referendum that gives you a chance to put that in front of the Scottish people they start running away."
Mr Cameron’s insistence that the Scottish people are being ‘offered’ a referendum by London is at odds with his admission that the Scottish Government already has a democratic mandate to hold an independence referendum.
During a visit to Scotland last week Mr Cameron confirmed that further devolution would be considered should independence be rejected.
“When the referendum on independence is over, I am open to looking at how the devolved settlement can be improved further, and yes, that means considering what further powers could be devolved” he said.
The refusal by the PM to indicate what powers might be on offer post referendum follows confusing comments by Scottish Tory leader Ruth Davidson who denied any new powers were being proposed.
Speaking on Newsnight Scotland Ms Davidson claimed that no offer of new powers had been made by the PM and insisted that the powers contained in the Scotland Bill currently going through the House of Lords would likely be sufficient.
However the situation was further confused today after the BBC claimed that the UK PM had suggested “substantial additional powers” were on offer if Scotland opted to stay in the UK.
In an online article the BBC wrote: "While in Edinburgh last week, Prime Minister David Cameron hinted that the Scottish Parliament could have substantial additional powers if there was a "no" vote in the independence referendum."
The article by the BBC is the first to suggest Mr Cameron is considering a significant package of powers. However it contrasts sharply with comments from Ruth Davidson to BBC Scotland’s Glenn Campbell that post referendum will see only a “tinkering” with the devolution settlement.
Mr MacNeil later commented on the Prime Minister's reply, and accused him of leading a party that was in a state of “disarray and division”.
Accusing Mr Cameron of returning to the their traditional negative stance on Scottish affairs, he added:
"By avoiding a straightforward question with a negative response the Prime Minister has added to the state of disarray and division within the Tory party over powers for the Scottish Parliament.
"Just days after claiming he would be positive and more powers were on the table, David Cameron now cannot name a single power that he would devolve. If his claims in Scotland were genuine he now has a democratic duty to set out exactly what is on offer.”
Mr MacNeil highlighted recent comments from the party’s Scottish leader Ruth Davidson and claimed the Conservatives were now panicking over their stance on Scotland.
He added:
"Who are Scottish voters to believe: the Prime Minister with his promises of 'jam tomorrow', or Ms Davidson with her refusal to even consider an improvement to the inadequate Scotland Bill?
"People in Scotland are entitled to know what the Prime Minister has in mind, and whether his proposals include any real economic powers and responsibilities, for example, over welfare issues.
"The Prime Minister should spell out what his alternative to independence is. If his proposals go beyond the current Scotland Bill, David Cameron has a responsibility to say what he has in mind."
Comments
#
2012-02-22 21:17
I looked out of my window tonight and I saw the Brit Tory respect agenda flying on the back of a pig! The poor pig looked red faced as it had Michael Moore and the Libs along for the ride as well.
#
2012-02-22 21:18
How on earth can "Call me Dave" Elaborate. He has no idea how to elaborate on nothing.
Quote:
Erm, I don't think so Davy boy. The last time I checked it was the Scottish government who was doing the "offering" of a referendum NOT Wastemonster!
I think the picture is very apt though.:D
"DOH! What was it I said in Edinburgh last week again?
I will consider more powers?
No that can't be right. My best buddy Ruth tells me the line has already been drawn in the sand.
Whew! That must have been a heck of dream I had last night."
" Darling what sort of cheese was on that sandwich last night?"
"Why Scottish Cheddar of course!"
Quote:
Mr Cameron’s insistence that the Scottish people are being ‘offered’ a referendum by London
Erm, I don't think so Davy boy. The last time I checked it was the Scottish government who was doing the "offering" of a referendum NOT Wastemonster!
I think the picture is very apt though.:D
"DOH! What was it I said in Edinburgh last week again?
I will consider more powers?
No that can't be right. My best buddy Ruth tells me the line has already been drawn in the sand.
Whew! That must have been a heck of dream I had last night."
" Darling what sort of cheese was on that sandwich last night?"
"Why Scottish Cheddar of course!"
#
2012-02-22 21:48
Thanks for the link.
The Tories really didn't think this out. The point in Massie's last paragraph is going to be made again, and again, and ....
"If, as Mr Cameron hinted last week, the choice is not between independence and the status quo but between independence and some form of "further powers" then, by god, it would be useful to know what he means. At some point he will need an aswer for Mr MacNeill's question. Having one sooner rather than later would be best."
The Tories really didn't think this out. The point in Massie's last paragraph is going to be made again, and again, and ....
"If, as Mr Cameron hinted last week, the choice is not between independence and the status quo but between independence and some form of "further powers" then, by god, it would be useful to know what he means. At some point he will need an aswer for Mr MacNeill's question. Having one sooner rather than later would be best."
#
2012-02-22 21:55
How does the saying go?
"You can fool some of the people all of the time.
You can fool all of the people some of the time.
But you can not fool all of the people all of the time."
Perhaps we should add a new "Call me Dave" specific line.
"You can however, fool none of the people all of the time!"
"You can fool some of the people all of the time.
You can fool all of the people some of the time.
But you can not fool all of the people all of the time."
Perhaps we should add a new "Call me Dave" specific line.
"You can however, fool none of the people all of the time!"
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2012-02-22 22:28
#Oldnat
That is the part I can't understand.
Did Cameron, when in Scotland, intend to 'hint at more powers later' or was it a slip.
If it was intentional why demean his authority by coming to Scotland to do it.
Also adding that Scotland can do alright on it's own to a mass audience.
I'm genuinely puzzled as he has weakened the unionist position so much that no-one can
a) believe any unionist threat
b) expect less than lots of devo jam
and if (b) is the plan I reckon that the 'devo-lots of jam' will suddenly appear about 3 months before the referendum in 2013 or 2014 as a spoiler.
'The First Eck' will have to reject it and then the unionists will hope for a backlash and to win in a very close NO vote.
That is the part I can't understand.
Did Cameron, when in Scotland, intend to 'hint at more powers later' or was it a slip.
If it was intentional why demean his authority by coming to Scotland to do it.
Also adding that Scotland can do alright on it's own to a mass audience.
I'm genuinely puzzled as he has weakened the unionist position so much that no-one can
a) believe any unionist threat
b) expect less than lots of devo jam
and if (b) is the plan I reckon that the 'devo-lots of jam' will suddenly appear about 3 months before the referendum in 2013 or 2014 as a spoiler.
'The First Eck' will have to reject it and then the unionists will hope for a backlash and to win in a very close NO vote.
#
2012-02-22 22:38
I think you credit the unionists with more cunning plans that they are capable of.
They are just scared, and fear brings knee-jerk reactions, retardment to old scare stories, relentless "imperialistic" propaganda and shows of Westminster paternalistic authority. None of which are as convincing as they used to be.
They are just scared, and fear brings knee-jerk reactions, retardment to old scare stories, relentless "imperialistic" propaganda and shows of Westminster paternalistic authority. None of which are as convincing as they used to be.
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2012-02-22 22:53
Your maybe right!
But if that's all they've got maybe 'The Wizard of Oz' was Lord Foulkes behind the curtain making scary noises after all!
But if that's all they've got maybe 'The Wizard of Oz' was Lord Foulkes behind the curtain making scary noises after all!
#
2012-02-22 21:31
More like "Phew I think we got away with that the Jockanese don't know what I say back in blighty.
I have that Alex chappie on the run now"
I have that Alex chappie on the run now"
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2012-02-22 21:41
David Cameron does not know what David Cameron is thinking because he doesn't do thinking. He needs focus groups, his mates from the Bullingdon Club and his dinner table acolytes to tell him.
He is the original Lord Snooty without friends from the Great Unwashed
He is the original Lord Snooty without friends from the Great Unwashed
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2012-02-22 21:43
O T just found this on Rangers rumour website
[Quoting an entire post from another website can breach copyright. A link to the post is acceptable, as long as the site doesn't contain "offensive or illegal material" - NNS Mod Team]
What do you think about this lol.
www.rangersrumours.co.uk/.../
[Quoting an entire post from another website can breach copyright. A link to the post is acceptable, as long as the site doesn't contain "offensive or illegal material" - NNS Mod Team]
What do you think about this lol.
www.rangersrumours.co.uk/.../
#
2012-02-22 21:49
Wouldn't it be funny if the "fans" who read this actually go ahead and vote YES in 2014. Knowing there care a great deal of 'Gers fans out there looks like we are not only nudging towards a victory in 2014, but we now have the potential to get a landslidevictory in 2014. YEE HAA!
#
2012-02-22 22:12
As we don't know what post you're referring too, because of mod rules, posting the url is pointless.
[Edited]
[Edited]
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2012-02-22 22:18
Yes I do the post im referring to is along the lines of let's all get together and vote for independence if HMRC won't deal with us, they are afraid of losing 1 trillion pounds of oil revenue. I think if you scan through the posts only a couple of hours ago you will see what I'm talking about, theres not many I would be directing you to.
#
2012-02-22 21:55
Sorry mods won't happen again, promise.
[Thanks. Your comment above is absolutely fine. - NNS Mod Team]
[Thanks. Your comment above is absolutely fine. - NNS Mod Team]
#
2012-02-22 22:32
Quoting alexmc8275:
Thought my previous post was all ok mods, why was it removed when I tried to point out to Briggs which post I was referring to.
Sorry mods won't happen again, promise.
[Thanks. Your comment above is absolutely fine. - NNS Mod Team]
Thought my previous post was all ok mods, why was it removed when I tried to point out to Briggs which post I was referring to.
#
2012-02-22 23:14
Not that I can see old nat , a post from Briggs has disappeared, also my response, describing the content of the post I was referring to seems to have disappeared. It must have broke the rules, for some reason or other. No big deal.
#
2012-02-22 22:07
That picture is priceless.
O.T. (apologies) I've had me an idea lightbulb. How about a great big 'band aid' type concert (but with much more diverse music including traditional) in support of independence?
Could be called 'artists for independence'.
O.T. (apologies) I've had me an idea lightbulb. How about a great big 'band aid' type concert (but with much more diverse music including traditional) in support of independence?
Could be called 'artists for independence'.
#
2012-02-22 22:11
o/t my mate got interviewed today for some Scandinavian newspaper about the referendum and was asked for his views. He mentioned the bias BBC. I really hope the corrupt beeb get more and more international pressure.
I hope they go down in a ball of embarrassing flames.
I hope they go down in a ball of embarrassing flames.
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2012-02-22 22:26
Dear ToodelooTheNoo
My thanks to the BBC for constantly asking the supposedly unanswered questions about Independence.
Every time those questions are asked it gives an ex-labour voter like me a chance to hear & consider the consistent and regular replies from the SNP.
Of course, strictly speaking, these questions are not about Independence at all since it is an easily understood concept.
Most Scots I speak with know that. They can see many Independent countries around Europe & the wider World, none of whom feel the need to be governed by their larger neighbours. They live peacefully, prosperously, making common cause when necessary and taking their own course when it suits them.
What the BBC's questions really reveal is that the SNP has given much thought to its policy positions & manifesto commitments for the first elections in an Independent Scotland. I welcome that.
I would also hope that other parties can do the same, although there is little sign of that so far.
Perhaps they just haven't been asked or maybe the questions are unanswered. Can you find out ?
My thanks to the BBC for constantly asking the supposedly unanswered questions about Independence.
Every time those questions are asked it gives an ex-labour voter like me a chance to hear & consider the consistent and regular replies from the SNP.
Of course, strictly speaking, these questions are not about Independence at all since it is an easily understood concept.
Most Scots I speak with know that. They can see many Independent countries around Europe & the wider World, none of whom feel the need to be governed by their larger neighbours. They live peacefully, prosperously, making common cause when necessary and taking their own course when it suits them.
What the BBC's questions really reveal is that the SNP has given much thought to its policy positions & manifesto commitments for the first elections in an Independent Scotland. I welcome that.
I would also hope that other parties can do the same, although there is little sign of that so far.
Perhaps they just haven't been asked or maybe the questions are unanswered. Can you find out ?
#
2012-02-22 23:20
Thank you for your well-thought-out post, Govanite.
As to the "unanswered" questions about an independent Scotland, it's just silly. The SNP has answered the answerable ones time and again. They don't have a crystal ball and can't tell the future (=answer all questions), but neither can Westminster.
One of the unionist fallacies is that "no" for independence would somehow ensure no change in Scotland, which is impossible, as the world, and the UK and Scotland with it, is changing.
As to "unanswered questions", I must be either smarter or better informed than the UK government. I'm a foreigner but even I know that the Queen will remain head of state, pound sterling will be the currency until the people of Scotland decide otherwise, Scotland will continue to be a member of the EU but won't have to join the Euro, Scotland will have a small but effective defence force, geared towards defending Scotland's own territory, not fighting vanity wars in foreign parts, and no nuclear weapons. Scotland will take on her share of the UK debt, 8-9%. And take 8-9% of the UK assets that aren't tied to a particular geographical location.
Why can't the unionists get this through their thick skulls??? Well, there's none so deaf as will not hear, I guess.
Also, an independent Scotland won't be a one-party state. As soon as Scotland is independent, the SNP will split into at least two, more left and more right, and Murdo Fraser will found his right-of-center-not-tory party, and disencahnted Scottish labour people will build a true labour party from the ground up. The political map will be totally transformed.
As to the "unanswered" questions about an independent Scotland, it's just silly. The SNP has answered the answerable ones time and again. They don't have a crystal ball and can't tell the future (=answer all questions), but neither can Westminster.
One of the unionist fallacies is that "no" for independence would somehow ensure no change in Scotland, which is impossible, as the world, and the UK and Scotland with it, is changing.
As to "unanswered questions", I must be either smarter or better informed than the UK government. I'm a foreigner but even I know that the Queen will remain head of state, pound sterling will be the currency until the people of Scotland decide otherwise, Scotland will continue to be a member of the EU but won't have to join the Euro, Scotland will have a small but effective defence force, geared towards defending Scotland's own territory, not fighting vanity wars in foreign parts, and no nuclear weapons. Scotland will take on her share of the UK debt, 8-9%. And take 8-9% of the UK assets that aren't tied to a particular geographical location.
Why can't the unionists get this through their thick skulls??? Well, there's none so deaf as will not hear, I guess.
Also, an independent Scotland won't be a one-party state. As soon as Scotland is independent, the SNP will split into at least two, more left and more right, and Murdo Fraser will found his right-of-center-not-tory party, and disencahnted Scottish labour people will build a true labour party from the ground up. The political map will be totally transformed.
#
2012-02-22 23:29
I think you have just answered your own question there lumi.
Quote:
They all have thick skulls, extra,extra,ext ra thick skulls where nothing ever gets through!
Quote:
Why can't the unionists get this through their thick skulls??? Well, there's none so deaf as will not hear, I guess.
They all have thick skulls, extra,extra,ext ra thick skulls where nothing ever gets through!
#
2012-02-22 23:56
And we poor nationalist try to reason with them and end up bashing our poor heid agaist the brick wall of stupidity and generational prejudice... But we have to find a gentle way to get through to those two brain cells. When we do, the conversion is almost biblical. The blind see the light, that sort of thing.
Easy does it, friendly, positive...
Easy does it, friendly, positive...
#
2012-02-23 00:01
WHAT? :D
They have TWO Brain cells!
Oh My God!
Next some one will be telling us that they can read and understand the English language and have the ability to use dictionaries!
Don't worry Lumi, we have the "Enlightening Room" open and ready for all newcomers (ex unionists only) where they can complete their transformation and become a member of the "Real World" society. :D
They have TWO Brain cells!
Oh My God!
Next some one will be telling us that they can read and understand the English language and have the ability to use dictionaries!
Don't worry Lumi, we have the "Enlightening Room" open and ready for all newcomers (ex unionists only) where they can complete their transformation and become a member of the "Real World" society. :D
#
2012-02-23 00:47
I must apologise, my earlier post wasn't well-thought-through.
NEVER underestimate your adversaries. Never belittle them, e.g. by saying they only have two brain cells.
They have just as many brain cells as you do. They can read, they can write, and do it in the cyberspace. They understand the English language, and perhaps several others. They use dictionaries and thesauri.
So.
NEVER underestimate your adversary. Always assume they're smarter and more knowledgeable than you are, aspire to the same "smartness" and knowledge. Respect the opponent and learn their ways, learn to understand them, learn what makes them tick. If they're stupid, they won't do the same, and then... The world is your oyster! Or at least mussle.
NEVER underestimate your adversaries. Never belittle them, e.g. by saying they only have two brain cells.
They have just as many brain cells as you do. They can read, they can write, and do it in the cyberspace. They understand the English language, and perhaps several others. They use dictionaries and thesauri.
So.
NEVER underestimate your adversary. Always assume they're smarter and more knowledgeable than you are, aspire to the same "smartness" and knowledge. Respect the opponent and learn their ways, learn to understand them, learn what makes them tick. If they're stupid, they won't do the same, and then... The world is your oyster! Or at least mussle.
#
2012-02-22 23:54
I really don't expect the SNP to split in two immediately on independence. They are the only party with either a game plan or the expertise to implement it. A newly-independent Scotland will need a steady hand on the tiller.
However, in the medium to long term, I think we should certainly expect a fairly radical realignment across the board.
However, in the medium to long term, I think we should certainly expect a fairly radical realignment across the board.
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2012-02-23 00:31
No, not immediately after independence, but the fact is that the SNP is a broad-tent party, and now attracts anybody who wants an independent Scotland. Therefore, after independence, the party will start to split into factions, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Any modern democracy needs several political parties to bring out the voice of the people.
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2012-02-23 00:24
"The political map will be totally transformed."
They can transform what they want as long as it's in an independent and sovereign Scotland. That is freedom.
They can transform what they want as long as it's in an independent and sovereign Scotland. That is freedom.
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2012-02-22 22:30
The poor tories are all over the place, call me Dave saying this and that, Ruthie that and this, and M. Gove (raised in Aberdeen but representing an English constituency) has also dipped his spoon in the messy soup, warning the English not to be nationalistic. Apparently the Scots aren't subsidy junkies anymore. :-D
I was especially struck by this beginning of a quote, quoted in the Herald heraldscotland.com/.../... "The country was Great Britain for a reason, because we stood together..." [my italics]
Notice the past tense? Slip of the tongue? Or maybe, subconsciously they've already given up. :-D
I was especially struck by this beginning of a quote, quoted in the Herald heraldscotland.com/.../... "The country was Great Britain for a reason, because we stood together..." [my italics]
Notice the past tense? Slip of the tongue? Or maybe, subconsciously they've already given up. :-D
#
2012-02-22 22:48
Your spotting of the past tense usage is very perceptive. The more that they tie themselves to the past, the more they distance themselves from the future.
#
2012-02-22 23:36
This is something I've been noticing in the rhetoric in the past few times, but never got a real quote to prove it. But the unionist tend to talk about how great the UK and the Empire were... A very backward-looking stance, and the whole "stronger together, weaker apart" rhetoric boils down to that.
I think Scotland and Scots are comfortable with the fact that the Empire is gone, it's time to be a forward-looking, small European country. With a well-educated population and forward-looking strategies.
England still hasn't got over the trauma of the lost Empire. That's why they try to punch above their weight, being pally to US foreign policies and going to offensive vanity wars.
So, you see, even foreign policy thinking in Scotland and England has diverged. Why should Scotland be held hostage to UK foreign policy?
I think Scotland and Scots are comfortable with the fact that the Empire is gone, it's time to be a forward-looking, small European country. With a well-educated population and forward-looking strategies.
England still hasn't got over the trauma of the lost Empire. That's why they try to punch above their weight, being pally to US foreign policies and going to offensive vanity wars.
So, you see, even foreign policy thinking in Scotland and England has diverged. Why should Scotland be held hostage to UK foreign policy?
#
2012-02-23 00:55
Quote:
There was a cracker of a letter in Wednesday's Heral;d which pulled out all the stops about Empire, Battle of Waterloo etc etc. All it needed was a soundtrack - Elgar perhaps - to complete the tug on the heartstrings.
Perhaps the best example was a publicity campaign which had something to do with the Olympics and was all about what had put the Great into GB. One of the Examples was Henry VIII - King of England. No GB when he was on the throne. Say no more.
lumilumi 2012-02-22 22:36
This is something I've been noticing in the rhetoric in the past few times, but never got a real quote to prove it. But the unionist tend to talk about how great the UK and the Empire were... A very backward-looking stance, and the whole "stronger together, weaker apart" rhetoric boils down to that.
There was a cracker of a letter in Wednesday's Heral;d which pulled out all the stops about Empire, Battle of Waterloo etc etc. All it needed was a soundtrack - Elgar perhaps - to complete the tug on the heartstrings.
Perhaps the best example was a publicity campaign which had something to do with the Olympics and was all about what had put the Great into GB. One of the Examples was Henry VIII - King of England. No GB when he was on the throne. Say no more.
#
2012-02-23 01:16
Yeah, especially as the "Great" in "Great Britain" was put there by the Celts/Gauls. Asterix, if you like.
Lesser Britain, Brittany, was (is) south of the Channel. North of the Channel is Great(er) Britain.
Of course these unionist, empireist nincompoops confuse geographical and cultural/political terminology and it all becomes a real hodgepodge.
Lesser Britain, Brittany, was (is) south of the Channel. North of the Channel is Great(er) Britain.
Of course these unionist, empireist nincompoops confuse geographical and cultural/political terminology and it all becomes a real hodgepodge.
#
2012-02-23 20:49
Put me in mind of old Harry's 'rough wooing' of Scotland.
Perhaps Cameron is thinking along the same lines?
enotes.com/.../...
Perhaps Cameron is thinking along the same lines?
enotes.com/.../...
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2012-02-22 23:57
The country was Great Britain, just as the island is Great Britain, to distinguish it from Less Britain - Brittany. Just like the Greater and Lesser Cumbraes.
What idiot came out with that "standing together" garbage? What do they teach them in these schools these days?
What idiot came out with that "standing together" garbage? What do they teach them in these schools these days?
#
2012-02-23 20:30
This Bretagne / Grande Bretagne thing might well be the case in French etymology. But the term Great Britain in English derives from James VI moving to London in 1603 and wanting a name to hang on his attempt to unite his two realms. It finally came to fruition in the Union in 1707. There was Britain (i.e. England and Wales, often referred to as Brittania in Tudor England, the Tudors being a Welsh dynasty) and Great(er) Britain with the annexation (oops, addition) of Scotland. Hopefully all they'll have left soon is Little Britain.
#
2012-02-23 01:06
More past tense from the PM at QT yesterday
Quote:
scotsman.com/.../...
Quote:
“The UK has been an incredibly successful partnership between all its members and far from wanting to appeal to English people to nurture a grievance they feel, I want to appeal to my fellow Englishmen to say, ‘This has been a great partnership for Scotland and a great partnership for England too’.
scotsman.com/.../...
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2012-02-23 01:33
Strictly speaking, that's a present participle, i.e. something that happened in the past but (perhaps continues to happen and) still has relevance in the now.
Compare:
The UK is an incredibly... (present tense)
The UK was an incredibly... (past tense)
The Uk has been an incredibly... (present participial) (Implying the UK still is.)
The UK had been an incredibly... (past participial) (Implying the UK no longer is.)
Sorry, I'm a bit of a linguist anorak. ;-)
Compare:
The UK is an incredibly... (present tense)
The UK was an incredibly... (past tense)
The Uk has been an incredibly... (present participial) (Implying the UK still is.)
The UK had been an incredibly... (past participial) (Implying the UK no longer is.)
Sorry, I'm a bit of a linguist anorak. ;-)
#
2012-02-23 01:46
But yes, Florajo, when I take off my linguist anorak, I can see what you mean.
Why didn't Cameron say "The UK is an incredibly..." and "This is a great partnership..."
He chose to use the present participial, which harks back to the past. (The empire, the "great" Britain as they understand it).
Now, if any nincompoop unionist would actually say...
The UK will be an incredibly...
This will be a great partnership...
Notice the difference? Without actually changing any words, just the verb aspect and tense.
Oops. Don't tell the unionists. ;-)
Why didn't Cameron say "The UK is an incredibly..." and "This is a great partnership..."
He chose to use the present participial, which harks back to the past. (The empire, the "great" Britain as they understand it).
Now, if any nincompoop unionist would actually say...
The UK will be an incredibly...
This will be a great partnership...
Notice the difference? Without actually changing any words, just the verb aspect and tense.
Oops. Don't tell the unionists. ;-)
#
2012-02-23 20:33
Not sure what that tense is technically, Florajo, but its meaning implies continuity, i.e. is not defeatist. If he'd said "was an incredibly...", then OK. But, as it stands, it doesn't argue for them having given up the ghost.
Oops, I see lumilumi has already dealt with this more eruditely above.
Oops, I see lumilumi has already dealt with this more eruditely above.
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2012-02-22 22:37
A Tory chinless wonder accusing the Scottish government of running away, oo Dave you really are sooooo macho!! It's like the time you were pictured in a hospital with the shirt sleeves rolled up I bet you were the pin up boy of the Eton WRI!!!
Each time he opens his mouth he adds another few hundred votes for Independence.
Each time he opens his mouth he adds another few hundred votes for Independence.
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2012-02-23 00:09
I like it. And so realistic! Send a copy to call me Dave, he obviously needs some ideas,
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2012-02-23 02:49
Aaaah, I can just see it. Millionaire Dave asks millionaire Staachi&Staachi to come up with a campaign poster.
It's a Thathcerian thing. "Scotland's not working."
The more they promote it, the more Scots are minded toward independence.
Even David Cameron is in high demand. Alex Salmond was the first to claim that DC is a great asset to our cause (Scottish independence). Now Michael Gove tries to recover lost ground and says DC is a great asset to the unionist cause. One of them must be deluded and wrong, and it ain't Wee Eck.
It's a Thathcerian thing. "Scotland's not working."
The more they promote it, the more Scots are minded toward independence.
Even David Cameron is in high demand. Alex Salmond was the first to claim that DC is a great asset to our cause (Scottish independence). Now Michael Gove tries to recover lost ground and says DC is a great asset to the unionist cause. One of them must be deluded and wrong, and it ain't Wee Eck.
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2012-02-22 22:57
Cameron blusters his way through PM questions and he not just failed to answer MacNeil's question but seemed to give an answer totally void of sense. I would not trust this guy an inch.
But hey ho another few hundred coming over to the pro independence side because of him
But hey ho another few hundred coming over to the pro independence side because of him
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2012-02-23 00:15
Excuse me, when was the last time a UK PM actually answered a question at PMQs?
PMQs are a play, a farce, the height of yee-boo politics, an opportunity to display misplaced, lame wit and plenty of indignant political bluster. Reminds me of a nursery school class. With call me Dave as the head bully.
Scotland's FMQs isn't quite as bad but suffers from weak and bad opposition leaders who can't really take on the FM, and get decimated every week. I thought I'd never say this, but Iain Gray was good compared to the Lamentable, and Eck and Bella always had a good banter, unlike the smug, directionless Ruthie, whom Eck friendlyly (and patronisingly) dismisses. And even Tavish Scott made a bigger impression than poor Wullie Rennie.
PMQs are a play, a farce, the height of yee-boo politics, an opportunity to display misplaced, lame wit and plenty of indignant political bluster. Reminds me of a nursery school class. With call me Dave as the head bully.
Scotland's FMQs isn't quite as bad but suffers from weak and bad opposition leaders who can't really take on the FM, and get decimated every week. I thought I'd never say this, but Iain Gray was good compared to the Lamentable, and Eck and Bella always had a good banter, unlike the smug, directionless Ruthie, whom Eck friendlyly (and patronisingly) dismisses. And even Tavish Scott made a bigger impression than poor Wullie Rennie.
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2012-02-23 01:21
Neither PMQs, FMQs or Scottish Questions in the Commons are in any way edifying.
Committees in Holyrood or Westminster (discounting the Scottish Affairs Committee) can be interesting when you get non partisan examination of the Executive or other public bodies.
The bear pit stuff simply turns most people off politics completely.
Committees in Holyrood or Westminster (discounting the Scottish Affairs Committee) can be interesting when you get non partisan examination of the Executive or other public bodies.
The bear pit stuff simply turns most people off politics completely.
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2012-02-23 03:05
I happened to tune into Westminster's Scottish Committee today (yesterday).
I couldn't believe what I saw. Michael Moore giving evidence, and MPs, many of them Scots, asking leading questions, to undermine the democratically elected Scottish government.
But the worst thing was the sniggers and titters and laughs. It sent the message, to me, at least, that they think it's OK to trivialise and laugh about Scottish people's concerns. They just nodded to oneanother, Scotland is so wee, so poor, so stoopid, let's all laugh and titter and snigger about Scotland, and Scottish people.
Disgusting stuff.
The sooner Scotland's rid of Westminster, the better.
I couldn't believe what I saw. Michael Moore giving evidence, and MPs, many of them Scots, asking leading questions, to undermine the democratically elected Scottish government.
But the worst thing was the sniggers and titters and laughs. It sent the message, to me, at least, that they think it's OK to trivialise and laugh about Scottish people's concerns. They just nodded to oneanother, Scotland is so wee, so poor, so stoopid, let's all laugh and titter and snigger about Scotland, and Scottish people.
Disgusting stuff.
The sooner Scotland's rid of Westminster, the better.
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2012-02-22 22:58
Ye Gods and little fishes. Unknown and hithertoo unseen tribes in the upper reaches of the Amazon could tell you what extra devolved powers Cameron is considering for Scotland.
Zero, nil, nada, none and of course hee haw. Still it was considerate of wee Ruthie tae point this out so clearly for us.
Bless. :)
Zero, nil, nada, none and of course hee haw. Still it was considerate of wee Ruthie tae point this out so clearly for us.
Bless. :)
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2012-02-22 23:15
"The country was Great Britain for a reason, because we stood together..."
Great Britain is “Great”, not because it was powerful but because it was “greater” than Brittany which is Lesser Britain. See Wikipedia.
Great Britain is “Great”, not because it was powerful but because it was “greater” than Brittany which is Lesser Britain. See Wikipedia.
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2012-02-22 23:21
Since the main argument for continuing the UK Union appears to be a reliance on history, you would think that they might actually try to get their history right!
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2012-02-22 23:23
Can't do that oldnat. If that happens then the cat is well and truly out of the bag!:D
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2012-02-22 23:46
Yes, this old thing.
Those of us who know our geography and history know this. But I doubt Cameron & co. do. For people like him, Great Britain is the British isle, which is Great because of the great, grand imperial history or whatever. Stupid gits. (I went to the local comp in a foreign country but I seem better educated than many Eton alumni.)
Those of us who know our geography and history know this. But I doubt Cameron & co. do. For people like him, Great Britain is the British isle, which is Great because of the great, grand imperial history or whatever. Stupid gits. (I went to the local comp in a foreign country but I seem better educated than many Eton alumni.)
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2012-02-23 01:26
Ah, but at Eton the British political class were taught how to rule the Empire!
I bet you weren't taught that in your Finnish comprehensive, since you didn't have an empire to rule. Unfortunately, the British political class don't have an empire to rule either, so their education is reminiscent of training those spinning fibres by hand in 18th century cottage industries.
I bet you weren't taught that in your Finnish comprehensive, since you didn't have an empire to rule. Unfortunately, the British political class don't have an empire to rule either, so their education is reminiscent of training those spinning fibres by hand in 18th century cottage industries.
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2012-02-23 01:28
Don't forget oldnat, our Eton "friends" are all taught history and geography using books from the 18th Century!
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2012-02-23 03:22
Yes, you are both so right, oldnat and arbroath.
In my Finnish school we were taught more world than national history, and all was pretty critical of colonialism and empires.
We were taught it's good to be a small, neutral country and mostly hide. To keep out of trouble. The antithesis of the UK foreign policy, but it's kept us out of war since 1945, thank you very much.
In my Finnish school we were taught more world than national history, and all was pretty critical of colonialism and empires.
We were taught it's good to be a small, neutral country and mostly hide. To keep out of trouble. The antithesis of the UK foreign policy, but it's kept us out of war since 1945, thank you very much.
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2012-02-23 07:41
In other words, you just want to get along with the neighbours. A not unworthy aspiration I'd have thought.
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2012-02-23 03:35
And to think how terrifying it is that a cabal of people who've been taught a completely distorted view of the world will take over your society, your country, your world, your life.
What can ordinary people do? Join the patronising "Big Society"? (ha ha ha)
Scots, at least, have an escape clause. Go it alone. Independent. Scotland is a separate, and an increasingly separate country.
Run for it, darlings, while you still can!
What can ordinary people do? Join the patronising "Big Society"? (ha ha ha)
Scots, at least, have an escape clause. Go it alone. Independent. Scotland is a separate, and an increasingly separate country.
Run for it, darlings, while you still can!
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2012-02-23 20:38
I wouldn't trust Wikipedia on this. It's only as good as the theories of the people who post there. The history of the Union is more reliable on the origins of the name. When Scotland was joined to Britain, it became Great (i.e. greater) Britain.
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2012-02-22 23:48
o/t Better half was watching start of Masterchef on BBC this evening I was reading but ears pricked to hear BBC referring to Middle Temple being the backbone of the British Legal System when it is only relevant to English Law.
The EBC just can't help themselves.
The EBC just can't help themselves.
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2012-02-23 03:47
English=British=English, they think, and the world thinks.
In my home country, any European who speaks English is called English. Or Brit. Only lately the message is slowly seeping through. Irish. Scottish. Not English.
In my home country, any European who speaks English is called English. Or Brit. Only lately the message is slowly seeping through. Irish. Scottish. Not English.
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2012-02-23 00:00
Cameron seems to be planning ahead without consultation, last week Cameron and Sarkozy signed an energy pact? apparently there are to be a number of new nuclear power stations earmarked to be built in the UK.
oilprice.com/.../...
Has Cameron consulted the Scottish parliament about any new nuclear power station to be built in Scotland or indeed the waste issues from these new plants?
oilprice.com/.../...
Has Cameron consulted the Scottish parliament about any new nuclear power station to be built in Scotland or indeed the waste issues from these new plants?
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2012-02-23 00:05
UK and France are also sharing "defence" planning. Strange that it's OK for London to share defence with France, but not Scotland?
Consistency has never been a notable feature of London policy.
Consistency has never been a notable feature of London policy.
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2012-02-23 00:09
Yes strange indeed? if the Argies invade the Malvinas? will the French join with the UK forces and send an armada to regain those Isles?
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2012-02-23 00:15
The Maldives? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maldives
I didn't think Argentina's ambitions extended to the Indian Ocean....
I didn't think Argentina's ambitions extended to the Indian Ocean....
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2012-02-23 00:18
Perhaps when we gain independence Wastemonster are looking to take over France as a replacement for Scotland. :D
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2012-02-23 01:01
Scotland will be replaced by Belgium.
Fact.
At least according to the NewsBiscuit website.
"Scotland leaves United Kingdom, replaced by Belgium
In a stunning diplomatic coup Prime Minister David Cameron has announced the formal accession of Belgium to the United Kingdom, replacing the disillusioned Scottish nation.
‘It’s been an open secret that Scotland has been looking to transfer out of Team UK for a while now, and frankly I was just getting a bit fed up with the snide sarky comments from Alec Salmond and his so-called Scottish Parliament.’ said the new Prime Minister of England and Belgium.
‘Luckily we have been able to replace them with the Belgians, who are frankly healthier, following a strict diet of raspberry-flavoured beer, mussels and chips as they do. They also have a much better command of the English language.
The Prime Minister has responded to concerns about sectarian in-fighting between Flems and Walloons by suggesting they all mo..."
source: newsbiscuit.com/.../...
(The scary thing is that I can hear David Cameron's voice saying all that guff.)
Fact.
At least according to the NewsBiscuit website.
"Scotland leaves United Kingdom, replaced by Belgium
In a stunning diplomatic coup Prime Minister David Cameron has announced the formal accession of Belgium to the United Kingdom, replacing the disillusioned Scottish nation.
‘It’s been an open secret that Scotland has been looking to transfer out of Team UK for a while now, and frankly I was just getting a bit fed up with the snide sarky comments from Alec Salmond and his so-called Scottish Parliament.’ said the new Prime Minister of England and Belgium.
‘Luckily we have been able to replace them with the Belgians, who are frankly healthier, following a strict diet of raspberry-flavoured beer, mussels and chips as they do. They also have a much better command of the English language.
The Prime Minister has responded to concerns about sectarian in-fighting between Flems and Walloons by suggesting they all mo..."
source: newsbiscuit.com/.../...
(The scary thing is that I can hear David Cameron's voice saying all that guff.)
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2012-02-23 01:16
oldnat,Its good they have signed a defensive pact with france,it will give them somewhere to keep their nukes when we kick them out.
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2012-02-23 01:25
What they're moving the Nukes to France?
I thought they were moving them to the Isle of Wight!
I thought they were moving them to the Isle of Wight!
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2012-02-23 00:14
One thing is clear and has strong links to 1979.
Nobody is falling for the 'Jam tomorrow' mystery promises from the Tories. Now everyone knows there will be no further devolution for Scotland if there is a 1 question: No vote.
Camerons various actions, non answers and complete lack on any Vision for the Union is showing everyone that all Scotland can expect is London rule and the broken status quo.
Until now some uncertainties about becoming independent was competing against the possibility of further devolution. Now the only hope of further devolution rests with the outcome of the consultation and the clarification of what DEV MAX might deliver. Plus every Englishman and his dog don't want dev max for Scotland unless they also get a vote (they seem to have forgot, or are too ignorant to note that Scotland already voted for devolution without asking their opinion).
So the dev max question might make it if there is a strong and clear case but, regardless, Cameron is dead against it.
I don't know why the no camp is taking this route but all they have done so far is confirm to people: No to independence = No to more powers too. Yet we already know the bulk of the population want at least full fiscal control. This is a slap in the face to them.
The question then is. What do the dev max hopefuls go for between a Tory status quo or Independence?
Doesn't seem a tall order to persuade them that a)the latter is the better option, and b) Status quo is no option at all.
Nobody is falling for the 'Jam tomorrow' mystery promises from the Tories. Now everyone knows there will be no further devolution for Scotland if there is a 1 question: No vote.
Camerons various actions, non answers and complete lack on any Vision for the Union is showing everyone that all Scotland can expect is London rule and the broken status quo.
Until now some uncertainties about becoming independent was competing against the possibility of further devolution. Now the only hope of further devolution rests with the outcome of the consultation and the clarification of what DEV MAX might deliver. Plus every Englishman and his dog don't want dev max for Scotland unless they also get a vote (they seem to have forgot, or are too ignorant to note that Scotland already voted for devolution without asking their opinion).
So the dev max question might make it if there is a strong and clear case but, regardless, Cameron is dead against it.
I don't know why the no camp is taking this route but all they have done so far is confirm to people: No to independence = No to more powers too. Yet we already know the bulk of the population want at least full fiscal control. This is a slap in the face to them.
The question then is. What do the dev max hopefuls go for between a Tory status quo or Independence?
Doesn't seem a tall order to persuade them that a)the latter is the better option, and b) Status quo is no option at all.
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2012-02-23 02:10
I think you've got it.
SG does not want a devo-max question but they haven't ruled it out if people want it. That's called a democratic process. Westminster wouldn't know anything about it (democracy, that is).
The SNP doesn't want devo-max, it wants independence. It's fair to say that it's up to all the anti-independence parties to define what devo-max would be. But they won't. They just say "jam tomorrow", and fail to understand that after '79, the Scots just won't buy it.
SG does not want a devo-max question but they haven't ruled it out if people want it. That's called a democratic process. Westminster wouldn't know anything about it (democracy, that is).
The SNP doesn't want devo-max, it wants independence. It's fair to say that it's up to all the anti-independence parties to define what devo-max would be. But they won't. They just say "jam tomorrow", and fail to understand that after '79, the Scots just won't buy it.
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2012-02-23 00:24
Perfect summing up from Crawford Beveridge To Gordon Brewer's desperate attempts to get him to denounce Independence on Newsnight Scotland..
Do you want mum and dad to give you a cheque and tell you to make the best of it.
Do you want mum and dad to give you a cheque and tell you to make the best of it.
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2012-02-23 00:29
If someone ventures to suggest something might change on independence, it's Ochone, Ochone! If it's suggested that something might remain the same, it's Why bother.
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2012-02-23 00:51
Do you want mum and dad to give you a cheque and tell you to make the best of it.
As the great Frank Carson "who has just died"would say its a cracker
As the great Frank Carson "who has just died"would say its a cracker
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2012-02-23 00:45
O.K. then, who let the monkey speak instead of the organ grinder?
guardian.co.uk/.../...
I love this quote from Moore. About time he changed the record I think.
Quote:
Perhaps if he took the spuds oot of his lugs he may actually hear the answers he is looking for!
guardian.co.uk/.../...
I love this quote from Moore. About time he changed the record I think.
Quote:
In the most detailed challenge yet to the Scottish government's preferred timetable, Moore said: "No one has yet explained to me why the people of Scotland should have to wait nearly three years to make the most important decision we will ever make. It is not in the interests of the Scottish people to build up uncertainty and make them wait.
Perhaps if he took the spuds oot of his lugs he may actually hear the answers he is looking for!
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2012-02-23 00:55
Quoting Arbroath1320:
May I suggest he takes the 'spuds oot of his lugs' and listens to himself..yes himself...
Scottish Secretary Michael Moore told the BBC, "The decision on WHEN and if to have a referendum... is a matter for the new Scottish Parliament".
bbc.co.uk/.../...
O.K. then, who let the monkey speak instead of the organ grinder?
guardian.co.uk/.../...
I love this quote from Moore. About time he changed the record I think.
Quote:In the most detailed challenge yet to the Scottish government's preferred timetable, Moore said: "No one has yet explained to me why the people of Scotland should have to wait nearly three years to make the most important decision we will ever make. It is not in the interests of the Scottish people to build up uncertainty and make them wait.
Perhaps if he took the spuds oot of his lugs he may actually hear the answers he is looking for!
May I suggest he takes the 'spuds oot of his lugs' and listens to himself..yes himself...
Scottish Secretary Michael Moore told the BBC, "The decision on WHEN and if to have a referendum... is a matter for the new Scottish Parliament".
bbc.co.uk/.../...
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2012-02-23 04:03
This whole thing is so silly.
It is wise to have a longish time for people to weigh the pros and cons and to form an informed opinion.
The unionist don't want that because they know that any and every development is bad for their parties. Watch this place, the unionist mud-slinging will start soon.
It is wise to have a longish time for people to weigh the pros and cons and to form an informed opinion.
The unionist don't want that because they know that any and every development is bad for their parties. Watch this place, the unionist mud-slinging will start soon.
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2012-02-23 00:46
And I really do think Gordon Brewer looked ill when he was interviewing Beveridge, though I probably expressed myself poorly in my post that seems to have vanished. I don't wish him any harm, and I hope I'm wrong.
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2012-02-23 12:26
He looked fine when the camera returned to the live studio. It might just have been that he hadn't been through make-up before the interview was filmed.
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2012-02-23 01:01
Listening to Crawford Beveridge I am now more than convinced that keeping the £ is wrong and we should go for our own currency and...we must have a vote on whether Scotland joins the EU or not.
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2012-02-23 12:33
All these things will become possible with independence. It would be barking insane to float a brand-new currency on independence day. However, when the time looks right, the sovereign Scottish government can decide to do exactly that.
They're trying to get us hung up on the detail, when the whole point is to have the choice to do what's best for Scotland at any given time.
Also, we ARE in the EU. We all have EU passports, and the right to live and work anywhere in Europe. There are a lot of Scots living in Europe right now mecause of that right, and we have a lot of EU workers here. If we want to change that, that's for the future, and a much more grown-up debate than anything we're hearing from the Little Englanders.
Once more, the only sane course of action, the one that won't screw up people's lives, is to keep our existing EU membership on independence, and consider leaving at a later date once we've had a chance to weigh up the pros and cons seriously.
They're trying to get us hung up on the detail, when the whole point is to have the choice to do what's best for Scotland at any given time.
Also, we ARE in the EU. We all have EU passports, and the right to live and work anywhere in Europe. There are a lot of Scots living in Europe right now mecause of that right, and we have a lot of EU workers here. If we want to change that, that's for the future, and a much more grown-up debate than anything we're hearing from the Little Englanders.
Once more, the only sane course of action, the one that won't screw up people's lives, is to keep our existing EU membership on independence, and consider leaving at a later date once we've had a chance to weigh up the pros and cons seriously.
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2012-02-23 01:01
Completely O/T but this will give everybody here a giggle before bed at the BBC expense
m.youtube.com/.../...
Hope you enjoy it as much as I did!
m.youtube.com/.../...
Hope you enjoy it as much as I did!
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2012-02-23 01:09
O/T It might come as a big surprise to regular Newsnet readers to hear of the outrageous 'political bias' in favour of the SNP on Radio Nan Gaidheal in the Highlands. The defeated Labour candidate in the Western Isles is demanding an enquiry for this gross injustice. Have a laugh! www.hebrides-news.com/.../
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2012-02-23 01:23
Oh dear the shoe is on the other foot! :D
They don't like it up them Mr. Manwaring!
They don't like it up them Mr. Manwaring!
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2012-02-23 04:01
A BBC Scotland spokesman said: “We reject the criticism relating to the Radio nan Gaidheal report on Wednesday.
The report clearly attributed to an MSP the claim that the Labour Party were against the government RET scheme. (Nothing to do wi' us gv'nor!)
“If Councillor MacSween can provide us with evidence of alleged bias in our news reporting, we will certainly look into the matter.(Look only and wi' closed eyes)
“However we reject entirely any suggestion that Radio nan Gaidheal is not subject to the same rigorous application of the BBC's guidelines on impartiality and accuracy of reporting as apply to all other BBC news services.”
The best, o' the best, o' the best.
The British Bullshiting Cretinism is unique and nobody does it like them.
The report clearly attributed to an MSP the claim that the Labour Party were against the government RET scheme. (Nothing to do wi' us gv'nor!)
“If Councillor MacSween can provide us with evidence of alleged bias in our news reporting, we will certainly look into the matter.(Look only and wi' closed eyes)
“However we reject entirely any suggestion that Radio nan Gaidheal is not subject to the same rigorous application of the BBC's guidelines on impartiality and accuracy of reporting as apply to all other BBC news services.”
The best, o' the best, o' the best.
The British Bullshiting Cretinism is unique and nobody does it like them.
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2012-02-23 12:37
Hmmm. Is that little local bias reversal the reason Diomhair got made by BBC Alba?
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2012-02-23 01:12
The scandal that is Scottish Questions is...a downright scandal.
Thank goodness it is two months before the next one. There should be some important turn of events before then, hopefully that will shut the uionists and boring Michael and his boring colleague up.
Thank goodness it is two months before the next one. There should be some important turn of events before then, hopefully that will shut the uionists and boring Michael and his boring colleague up.
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2012-02-23 01:18
Yes but does it not give you a warm glow to know that our interests are being safeguarded by none other than Mr.More or less and Mr.Mundane. I for one will sleep sounder tonight for having them on my side.
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2012-02-23 01:40
Sorry if this has been suggested before, but surely the way to resolve the suggested additional powers issue, is for Westminster to amend the current Scotland Bill to incorporate the additional powers, get this enacted prior to the referendum, thus allowing the referendum to be a straight choice between independence and the (new) status quo. Surely that can't be too hard for call me Dave and his mates to organise.
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2012-02-23 02:04
You are correct and unfortunately this has been suggested before.
The truth has to be, given that, if so desired, the Scotland Bill could be amended to incorporate the additional powers, there are no additional powers under consideration by any of the unionist parties. All that is under consideration by them is ...'how can we get away with this for a bit longer' because I think they know the game is up but I think they are like a guy who does the same numbers every week on the lottery and having seen the draw will still go into the shop and ask the man to check his ticket in case he has won something.
I think its also known as denial..
The truth has to be, given that, if so desired, the Scotland Bill could be amended to incorporate the additional powers, there are no additional powers under consideration by any of the unionist parties. All that is under consideration by them is ...'how can we get away with this for a bit longer' because I think they know the game is up but I think they are like a guy who does the same numbers every week on the lottery and having seen the draw will still go into the shop and ask the man to check his ticket in case he has won something.
I think its also known as denial..
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2012-02-23 02:05
Even more easily, Westminster can introduce a Section 30 order which can transfer additional powers to Scotland. If it is approved by Westminster and Holyrood, it would be law.
They could even guarantee that such an order would be introduced if we vote No.
They want to repeat 1979, when insufficient Scots voted Yes to pass their rigged referendum. However for many Scots, who aren't yet convinced about independence, it isn't a simple Yes/No question. It's a matter of "We might be willing to stay in the UK, if we get guaranteed fiscal autonomy, on terms we like" question.
If the Unionists were to propose a choice between independence and reverting to the pre 1999 constitutional status, independence would win hands down.
For the Unionists, the question has to be "What are you offering in terms of Scottish autonomy, and are you guaranteeing its implementation, if we stay in the UK?"
They could even guarantee that such an order would be introduced if we vote No.
They want to repeat 1979, when insufficient Scots voted Yes to pass their rigged referendum. However for many Scots, who aren't yet convinced about independence, it isn't a simple Yes/No question. It's a matter of "We might be willing to stay in the UK, if we get guaranteed fiscal autonomy, on terms we like" question.
If the Unionists were to propose a choice between independence and reverting to the pre 1999 constitutional status, independence would win hands down.
For the Unionists, the question has to be "What are you offering in terms of Scottish autonomy, and are you guaranteeing its implementation, if we stay in the UK?"
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2012-02-23 02:30
oldnat
"Even more easily, Westminster can introduce a Section 30 order which can transfer additional powers to Scotland. If it is approved by Westminster and Holyrood, it would be law."
Agreed and this is ,I think,the anvil on which Independence can/will be forged.
Whatever Mr. Cameron, Mr darling,Mr. Moore ,Ms davidson or even someone from the scottish arm of the labour party says (if they ever get around to saying anything,where is Johan Lamont?)the people of Scotland WILL have a vote on the future of Scotland.
I hope they will remember who said what and when.
"Even more easily, Westminster can introduce a Section 30 order which can transfer additional powers to Scotland. If it is approved by Westminster and Holyrood, it would be law."
Agreed and this is ,I think,the anvil on which Independence can/will be forged.
Whatever Mr. Cameron, Mr darling,Mr. Moore ,Ms davidson or even someone from the scottish arm of the labour party says (if they ever get around to saying anything,where is Johan Lamont?)the people of Scotland WILL have a vote on the future of Scotland.
I hope they will remember who said what and when.
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2012-02-23 02:43
Sorry to bring up something that has been suggested before. Actually, in my response to Westminster's consultation, I suggested using a section 30 order to transfer additional powers. No chance there, but still.
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2012-02-23 01:46
Quote:
We've heard all their 'jam tomorrow' bribes before. That old lie won't work anymore. We won't be fooled again.
In an online article the BBC wrote: "While in Edinburgh last week, Prime Minister David Cameron hinted that the Scottish Parliament could have substantial additional powers if there was a "no" vote in the independence referendum."
We've heard all their 'jam tomorrow' bribes before. That old lie won't work anymore. We won't be fooled again.
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2012-02-23 02:30
Interesting reports that our Labour MPs from Scotland may not be wholly civilised.
politicshome.com/.../...
Politics Home is saying that "Labour MP Eric Joyce has allegedly been involved in a brawl in a House of Commons bar in which he punched several Tory MPs. It is reported that he also hit a Labour MP." It also alleges that "Mr Joyce is being held at a London police station on suspicion of assault."
Surely not?
politicshome.com/.../...
Politics Home is saying that "Labour MP Eric Joyce has allegedly been involved in a brawl in a House of Commons bar in which he punched several Tory MPs. It is reported that he also hit a Labour MP." It also alleges that "Mr Joyce is being held at a London police station on suspicion of assault."
Surely not?
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2012-02-23 02:38
Not that I would in any way condone such ALLEGED behaviour. However perhaps, in mitigation, we may introduce this....
"It is reported that Mr Joyce complained that the bar, popular with MPs from both parties, was "full of Tories". "
politicshome.com/.../...
"It is reported that Mr Joyce complained that the bar, popular with MPs from both parties, was "full of Tories". "
politicshome.com/.../...
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2012-02-23 02:43
Oh dear. Another Labour MP living up to the lowly expectations we have of them.
Amazingly there is a short report on the EBC site.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17136209
Amazingly there is a short report on the EBC site.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17136209
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2012-02-23 03:09
MAYBE, he just , for the first time saw 'Scottish Questions ' on the bbc and was overtaken by the desire to defend his country against the obnoxious attacks from MP's at westminster.
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2012-02-23 04:15
Is also in the Guardian: guardian.co.uk/.../...
The Sun: thesun.co.uk/.../...
And the Daily Mail: dailymail.co.uk/.../...
But they all just copy the PH note
The Sun: thesun.co.uk/.../...
And the Daily Mail: dailymail.co.uk/.../...
But they all just copy the PH note
#
2012-02-23 02:46
If Cameron decided to wholeheartedly support the 1014 date for the referendum it would leave plenty of time for sorting out what extra powers he was offering Scotland in the event of a no to independence.
We already have waited a long time for the moment and a few more months would not test our patience too much.
We already have waited a long time for the moment and a few more months would not test our patience too much.
#
2012-02-23 02:56
1014? Ah yes, that was when Duncan I's wife Queen Aelflaed (sybil) FITZSIWARD of Scotland was born.
Yes, I know it was a typo, but still funny!
Yes, I know it was a typo, but still funny!
#
2012-02-23 03:26
Funny it is and even funnier in my mind is the idea that if the unionists were given say from 1014 to 2014 as a timescale ...correct me if I am wrong but that is 1000 years ...even if they had another 1000 years they could still not come up with a convincing argument for Scotland staying with the status quo.
#
2012-02-23 03:40
Where there is discord, may there be riots!
Now go out and re-Joyce and lets hope IDS was KNOCKED OUT!!!
Now go out and re-Joyce and lets hope IDS was KNOCKED OUT!!!
#
2012-02-23 03:52
Apparently Big John Bercow arrived after the incident and declared "Last Orders"
Did Joyce get his annual bar bill?
Did Joyce get his annual bar bill?
#
2012-02-23 12:09
The picture I'm getting is this is our referendum and we should be outlining what we wish as an alternative and Westminster needs to facilitate the movement of these powers. For these are not theirs to give, they are ours to manage as we effectively only loaned them to Westminster. This is where the unionists come unstuck!
This is where the great unionist deception is most active.
This is where the great unionist deception is most active.
#
2012-02-23 14:51
I see Jim Sillars has a piece in the Edinburgh Evening News about "Eton Dave's" visit last week.
scotsman.com/.../...
scotsman.com/.../...
#
2012-02-23 15:17
An excellent article by Mr. Sillars:
But? But not really, what the Scottish electorate need to know before we make the decision.
But? But not really, what the Scottish electorate need to know before we make the decision.
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