Wednesday, 22 February 2012 21:54
100 Comments
By a Newsnet reporter 
The UK government wants to bounce Scotland into holding the independence referendum in September next year, under proposals aired today by Secretary of State for Scotland Michael Moore.
Mr Moore set out the approach on Wednesday afternoon during an appearance before the Commons Scottish Affairs Committee.
"I believe you can actually deliver this referendum by September 2013 which, give or take a few weeks, is close to the First Minister's declaration that it would be in the second half of the Scottish Parliament," Mr Moore claimed.
The Lib Dem MP said that the Bill could be introduced by autumn this year followed by Royal Assent in March next year. He added that the regulated period for the campaign would then begin in June 2013 with the question going to the people in September.
Mr Moore said all legal and procedural requirements would be met and criticised the Scottish government's approach.
He added: "It seems they're kicking the can down the road on this one for no good reason."
During the Holyrood elections in May 2011, which returned a majority SNP administration, the SNP stated that if returned to power they would hold the referendum in the second half of the Parliament. At that time the Unionist parties were against holding a referendum and claimed that the SNP intended to "bounce" Scots into a ballot.
Mr Moore's latest attempt to control the timing of the referendum will now be subject to negotiations between Westminster and Holyrood.
The Scottish government quickly rejected Mr Moore's suggestion for the referendum date, labelling it a "silly distraction".
Bruce Crawford, cabinet secretary in the Scottish government responded to Mr Moore's comments by noting that the Scottish government had "unanswerable mandate" giving it the right to hold the referendum at a time of its choosing. Mr Crawford added that this mandate had been received at the same time that "the Lib Dems lost every … seat in mainland Scotland".
Mr Crawford said that Mr Moore's proposal was "flawed and full of holes" as it did not allow enough time for proper analysis of responses to the Scottish government's public consultation on the issue, and the 10 week mininum time period required to test the ballot.
Mr Crawford added: "In any event, it is simply not for the Secretary of State to dictate the legislative timetable of the Scottish parliament. And given the abysmal farce of the AV referendum, the very last people to listen to on the timing and terms of a referendum would be the Lib Dems."
He continued: "The more they try to dictate the terms of the referendum from Westminster, the more unpopular the anti-independence parties will become, and the more popular independence will be.
"We have published a detailed timetable to hold the referendum in autumn 2014, and that is when it shall be held."
Comments
#
2012-02-23 01:29
Is flogging dead horses hard wired into the DNA OF Unionist politicians?
Moore is playing a blinder. He is starting to look and sound like a public school bully.
Moore is playing a blinder. He is starting to look and sound like a public school bully.
#
2012-02-23 01:48
Seems to me that all the unionists are left with is the old saying from WWII,Goebbels I think.
"If you lie often enough and long enough then eventually the people believe you."
If this is the best we can expect from the unionists then we really do have them not only worried but well beaten, and that's before the fight proper actually starts!
"If you lie often enough and long enough then eventually the people believe you."
If this is the best we can expect from the unionists then we really do have them not only worried but well beaten, and that's before the fight proper actually starts!
#
2012-02-23 01:32
So without waiting for answers to their own consultation exercise, which includes a question on the proposed date, they've made an announcement anyway. More panic?
I wonder if he laid out a detailed timetable as did the Scottish Government?
I wonder if he laid out a detailed timetable as did the Scottish Government?
#
2012-02-23 01:37
They are trying to redefine the word respect, it will now have a new meaning - bullying, patronising and Jjocks know your place.
#
2012-02-23 01:41
Quote:
They're becoming really puerile now. And, I think, may be bordering on breaching International Law by badgering, bullying and interfering in our sovereign right to hold a referendum on self determination at a time of our own choosing. Perhaps it's time our Scottish government asked the UN to intervene on our behalf.
"I believe you can actually deliver this referendum by September 2013 which, give or take a few weeks, is close to the First Minister's declaration that it would be in the second half of the Scottish Parliament," Mr Moore claimed.
They're becoming really puerile now. And, I think, may be bordering on breaching International Law by badgering, bullying and interfering in our sovereign right to hold a referendum on self determination at a time of our own choosing. Perhaps it's time our Scottish government asked the UN to intervene on our behalf.
#
2012-02-23 01:43
I'm finding the unionist obsession with the date of our referendum to be very off putting. What part of "the referendum will be held in autumn 2014" do they not understand? Don't they get that hell will freeze over before this date is changed.
#
2012-02-23 01:48
Tell Moore to get call me Dave's additional powers incorporated in the current Scotland Bill and get it enacted prior to the referendum, we can have the simple choice of independence versus the new status quo.
But it's still 2014!
But it's still 2014!
#
2012-02-23 17:52
But that would mean actually giving them to us I dont believe that's part of the plan!
#
2012-02-23 01:51
25 January 2012 - Public consultation on draft Referendum Bill begins,
3 May 2012 - Local Government elections,
11 May 2012 - Close of consultation period,
Summer 2012 - Analysis of consultation responses,
Autumn/Winter 2012 - Practical preparations including testing of the ballot paper,
Autumn 2012 - Scottish Government Legislative Programme Statement,
Autumn/Winter 2012 - Finalisation of Referendum Bill and development of implementation plan,
Early 2013 - Introduction of Referendum Bill to Scottish Parliament,
Early to mid 2013 - Parliamentary consideration of the bill: Stages 1 and 2 (including committee consideration and public evidence sessions),
July to August 2013 - Summer Recess,
October 2013 - Referendum Bill passed after Stage 3,
November 2013 - Royal Assent to the Referendum Bill,
November 2013 - Publication of White Paper on Independence,
June 2014 - European Elections,
July 2014 - Commonwealth Games,
Summer 2014 - Start of regulated period (16 weeks before referendum),
28 days before referendum - Pre-referendum period (no Government publications etc),
Autumn 2014 - Referendum.
Hope that clears things up for you, Mr. Moore.
3 May 2012 - Local Government elections,
11 May 2012 - Close of consultation period,
Summer 2012 - Analysis of consultation responses,
Autumn/Winter 2012 - Practical preparations including testing of the ballot paper,
Autumn 2012 - Scottish Government Legislative Programme Statement,
Autumn/Winter 2012 - Finalisation of Referendum Bill and development of implementation plan,
Early 2013 - Introduction of Referendum Bill to Scottish Parliament,
Early to mid 2013 - Parliamentary consideration of the bill: Stages 1 and 2 (including committee consideration and public evidence sessions),
July to August 2013 - Summer Recess,
October 2013 - Referendum Bill passed after Stage 3,
November 2013 - Royal Assent to the Referendum Bill,
November 2013 - Publication of White Paper on Independence,
June 2014 - European Elections,
July 2014 - Commonwealth Games,
Summer 2014 - Start of regulated period (16 weeks before referendum),
28 days before referendum - Pre-referendum period (no Government publications etc),
Autumn 2014 - Referendum.
Hope that clears things up for you, Mr. Moore.
#
2012-02-23 02:37
Perhaps we should send Moore and his cohorts a copy. At least then they would not be able to argue they don't know why it will take until l2014.
#
2012-02-23 02:15
Noted on the Huffingdom Post, that Mundell has stated that only "middle class 16 and 17 year olds would be placed on electoral register"
Quite unbelievable tosh, however par for the course regarding the utterances of this gentleman.
Quite unbelievable tosh, however par for the course regarding the utterances of this gentleman.
#
2012-02-23 02:18
The use of asterisks, numbers etc to pretend that "abusive or offensive language” is not being used is longer accepted, so I can't say anything about the delightful and charming Mr Mundell.
#
2012-02-23 02:36
Here's the link.
huffingtonpost.co.uk/.../...
You can read Mundell the muddle's point here.
Quote:
Interesting that Jo Swinson is holding an event in Wastemonster next week linked to 16 y.o's getting the vote.
How are the coalition members going to respond to the SNP now?
After this "event" the coalition will have surely lost yet another argument against the SNP plans for the referendum.
huffingtonpost.co.uk/.../...
You can read Mundell the muddle's point here.
Quote:
Scottish Office minister David Mundell said it would rely on parents registering their teenagers as people likely to turn 18 within the following year or so: "Perhaps that is something that middle class parents might be proactive in doing. But not every parent or household would put their son or daughter on to the electoral register." His statement is likely to annoy the Lib Dems, who are in favour of 16 and 17 year-olds voting in all elections. In fact Lib Dem MP Jo Swinson is holding an event in Parliament next week in support of the campaign group Votes at 16.
Interesting that Jo Swinson is holding an event in Wastemonster next week linked to 16 y.o's getting the vote.
How are the coalition members going to respond to the SNP now?
After this "event" the coalition will have surely lost yet another argument against the SNP plans for the referendum.
#
2012-02-23 02:18
Well I predict that Moore's dicatats will not be tomorrows front page! The most pressing question of the day will be
"Did Joyce connect correctly with the Glasgow kiss?"
"Did Joyce connect correctly with the Glasgow kiss?"
#
2012-02-23 02:26
Quote:
What part of "Butt out" does Moore and co. not understand.
He is a completely useless SoS.
He is a completely hopeless MP.
No one wants him.
No one needs him.
The Scottish government has the sole authority to call the referendum.
The Scottish government has the sole authority to decide the timing.
No one from Wastemonster has any input into this process.
We don't want any Wastemonster input into this process.
We don't need any Wastemonster input into this process.
We want a clear, lawful, untampered, unfiddled referendum.
We will not get that from Wastemonster.
We can only get this from a referendum controlled in Scotland by the Scottish government.
Wastemonster are only interested in one thing.... keeping their grubby little claws dug deep into Scotland at all costs.
Wastemonster are in such a spin at the prospect of "losing" Scotland they are trying anything and everything trying to keep hold of us.
Unfortunately Wastemonster are totally unable to grasp the concept of the fact that they are "totally out the loop" when talking about Scotland and our referendum!
The Lib Dem MP said that the Bill could be introduced by autumn this year followed by Royal Assent in March next year. He added that the regulated period for the campaign would then begin in June 2013 with the question going to the people in September.
What part of "Butt out" does Moore and co. not understand.
He is a completely useless SoS.
He is a completely hopeless MP.
No one wants him.
No one needs him.
The Scottish government has the sole authority to call the referendum.
The Scottish government has the sole authority to decide the timing.
No one from Wastemonster has any input into this process.
We don't want any Wastemonster input into this process.
We don't need any Wastemonster input into this process.
We want a clear, lawful, untampered, unfiddled referendum.
We will not get that from Wastemonster.
We can only get this from a referendum controlled in Scotland by the Scottish government.
Wastemonster are only interested in one thing.... keeping their grubby little claws dug deep into Scotland at all costs.
Wastemonster are in such a spin at the prospect of "losing" Scotland they are trying anything and everything trying to keep hold of us.
Unfortunately Wastemonster are totally unable to grasp the concept of the fact that they are "totally out the loop" when talking about Scotland and our referendum!
#
2012-02-23 02:29
As long as Salmond doesn't give way Westminster would have to force it on the Scots and that would open a can of worms for them.
#
2012-02-23 02:42
I wonder if Wastemonster are trying to play the "who is going to blink first" game.
If they are they are definitely going to lose!
The longer or harder they push the longer and harder A.S. is going to push back!
If they are they are definitely going to lose!
The longer or harder they push the longer and harder A.S. is going to push back!
#
2012-02-23 03:35
My auntie Rose, being prim and all, still says in these cases:
"Against the vice of demanding... is the Virtue of refusing"
"Against the vice of demanding... is the Virtue of refusing"
#
2012-02-23 17:52
My old boss who liked to go to sea used to quote ' The Vice Admirals rear was the Rear Admirals vice ' !
#
2012-02-23 03:39
Well, after all the fuss pro-Westminster campaigners have made about 2014 and Bannockburn etc then September 2013 seems logical to them.
It is the 500th anniversary of the Battle of Flodden after all, where King James 4th was killed in battle.
That´ll focus Scotland´s minds indeed.
It is the 500th anniversary of the Battle of Flodden after all, where King James 4th was killed in battle.
That´ll focus Scotland´s minds indeed.
#
2012-02-23 04:21
Good point! Flodden Field happened on 9 September 1513.
Moore says that "the referendum could be held as early as September 2013".
That's a remarkable coincidence. The SNP plan the referendum to take several months after the anniversary of Bannockburn.
Moore wants it to be exactly coincident with the 500th anniversary of Flodden. So which side is trying to manipulate a long since history to their advantage?
Moore says that "the referendum could be held as early as September 2013".
That's a remarkable coincidence. The SNP plan the referendum to take several months after the anniversary of Bannockburn.
Moore wants it to be exactly coincident with the 500th anniversary of Flodden. So which side is trying to manipulate a long since history to their advantage?
#
2012-02-23 04:30
ot
Breaking news:
SLAB MP arrested - Major Joyce has really done it this time - drunk driving was bad enough but - jeez!
That is SLAB for you.
Breaking news:
SLAB MP arrested - Major Joyce has really done it this time - drunk driving was bad enough but - jeez!
That is SLAB for you.
#
2012-02-23 06:55
Quoting clochoderic:
Thanks Clochoderic.
I wonder if the disturbance was in any way related to the amount of expenses he claims, as he must be near the top of the league of troughers on that count.
ot
Breaking news:
SLAB MP arrested - Major Joyce has really done it this time - drunk driving was bad enough but - jeez!
That is SLAB for you.
Thanks Clochoderic.
I wonder if the disturbance was in any way related to the amount of expenses he claims, as he must be near the top of the league of troughers on that count.
#
2012-02-23 12:48
This is not a SLAB issue, this could be anyone in any party. We need all politicians to act with decorum. It comes of having politicians who treat their Parliament as a club, and the people as election fodder.
#
2012-02-23 20:26
Quoting farrochie:
Wise words. . . because events sometimes come back to bite you.
This is not a SLAB issue, this could be anyone in any party. We need all politicians to act with decorum. It comes of having politicians who treat their Parliament as a club, and the people as election fodder.
Wise words. . . because events sometimes come back to bite you.
#
2012-02-23 06:10
"YOU HAVE NO MANDATE"
We just have to keep repeating the message till it gets boring...
We just have to keep repeating the message till it gets boring...
#
2012-02-23 07:02
They also don't have much of a clue about how things work in Scotland now.
I think the unionists have us beat when it comes to repeating things over and over until they become boring.
I think the unionists have us beat when it comes to repeating things over and over until they become boring.
#
2012-02-23 08:15
The sell of sound bites. The arguement goes:
"When you get sick of saying it - it is just getting through to the public."
"When you get sick of saying it - it is just getting through to the public."
#
2012-02-23 07:33
Is this what they meant by two referendums one held by Westminster in 2013 and another held by Holyrood in 2014, if Westminster realy want to hold a referendum why not one on Europe that they actualy promised the people of Britian. That's not going to happen.
#
2012-02-23 20:29
Quoting cjmjr:
'The First Eck' might just do that very thing one in 2013 for the referendum and one for 2014 in case there is a NO vote so we can then ask "Where's the Jam then"
Is this what they meant by two referendums one held by Westminster in 2013 and another held by Holyrood in 2014, if Westminster realy want to hold a referendum why not one on Europe that they actualy promised the people of Britian. That's not going to happen.
'The First Eck' might just do that very thing one in 2013 for the referendum and one for 2014 in case there is a NO vote so we can then ask "Where's the Jam then"
#
2012-02-23 07:52
Clearly Mr Moore has stolen a joke straight out of Stewart Lee's repertoire. Repeat the same banal concept over and over until it suddenly becomes funny.
www.youtube.com/.../
He must be angling for a comedy career post independence.
www.youtube.com/.../
He must be angling for a comedy career post independence.
#
2012-02-23 08:23
To answer the Minister without Portfolios highly pertinent questions on timing. Its no yours tae call!
I think thats cleared that up nicely.
Its actually very simple.I think that given the fact that Westminster and its northern troughers have had three hundred plus years of total control of the situation surely they must feel confident of a result, no? Could it be that another two and a half years of proper sober government would give the public more of a chance to play spot the difference?
Fact is you probably could hold this referendum a good 6-9 months earlier, but here's the thing. The SG said second half of term and spookily they may want to keep an election promise. Secondly it does buy the SG time to fight three hundred years of propaganda. More and more people are becoming politically motivated by the day and that's because word is slowly spreading about who's in the right here.
We know we've already won the argument. But it will take all the time we can lay our hands on to spread that word and Westminster is terrified. But to recap, the days of Westminster politicians calling the tune in Scotland are over.
I think thats cleared that up nicely.
Its actually very simple.I think that given the fact that Westminster and its northern troughers have had three hundred plus years of total control of the situation surely they must feel confident of a result, no? Could it be that another two and a half years of proper sober government would give the public more of a chance to play spot the difference?
Fact is you probably could hold this referendum a good 6-9 months earlier, but here's the thing. The SG said second half of term and spookily they may want to keep an election promise. Secondly it does buy the SG time to fight three hundred years of propaganda. More and more people are becoming politically motivated by the day and that's because word is slowly spreading about who's in the right here.
We know we've already won the argument. But it will take all the time we can lay our hands on to spread that word and Westminster is terrified. But to recap, the days of Westminster politicians calling the tune in Scotland are over.
#
2012-02-23 08:26
I watched Scottish questions yesterday - I didn't feel that the voices of that debate represented the current view of the people in Scotland.
Even MP's who support the union should object to the growing number of MP's of English seats telling us how lucky we are to have their support (inferred too wee, too stupid etc).
They know the date. We should not budge an inch on this one. They want to force the vote before the detailed information (truth) of the "benefits" of the union are fully exposed.
Even MP's who support the union should object to the growing number of MP's of English seats telling us how lucky we are to have their support (inferred too wee, too stupid etc).
They know the date. We should not budge an inch on this one. They want to force the vote before the detailed information (truth) of the "benefits" of the union are fully exposed.
#
2012-02-23 17:50
Surely it's not the date so much as controlling the process. You must show who's master.
#
2012-02-23 21:34
The strategy and principle involved work hand in glove in this instance. The principle being that this is our referendum, so hands off and the strategy of using the time wisely to allow the public to find out more about the benefits of an independent Scotland. An added bonus is that the electorate also get to see both parliaments in action over the period and can draw direct comparison over the performance of both governments.
#
2012-02-23 15:32
That's why I'm glad Alex is the FM. You know for a fact that he'll never back down or bend to wastemonster's demands. And when we get independence, you can trust that he will scrape back every last bit of what Scotland is owed.
#
2012-02-23 08:45
If a distant horizon for the referendum was part of the SNP masterplan then it is a masterstroke.
The massive hole that the dependency parties are digging for themselves will probably be deep enough in a few weeks time when the big brown thing hits the fan.
Crippled by astronimic fuel costs, Scottish industry has a real task to try and compete even at todays horrendous costs of fuel.
When Israel bombs Iran and the price of Oil quadruples kiss goodbye to any kind of competitiveness here in Scotland. We will effectively shut out country down.
Westminster will wring their hands with glee, just think of all that tax income.
Salmond seeing the country crippled will call a snap referendum to rid us from these creeps.
The massive hole that the dependency parties are digging for themselves will probably be deep enough in a few weeks time when the big brown thing hits the fan.
Crippled by astronimic fuel costs, Scottish industry has a real task to try and compete even at todays horrendous costs of fuel.
When Israel bombs Iran and the price of Oil quadruples kiss goodbye to any kind of competitiveness here in Scotland. We will effectively shut out country down.
Westminster will wring their hands with glee, just think of all that tax income.
Salmond seeing the country crippled will call a snap referendum to rid us from these creeps.
#
2012-02-23 08:45
This is NOT to be taken seriously. It is straight out of the 'political spin handbook'. Take control of the 'debate' and move the agenda to something which you CAN answer. It will be interesting to see how compliant the Scottish media are with this.
The Tory Government are under pressure following David Cameron stating that he would consider more powers for the Scottish parliament if Scots vote NO. This nonsense by Moore over the date is just a smokescreen, to try to shift attention away from those extra powers, and the questions Cameron won't (can't) answer.
Keep asking the questions, and raising the issue of what more powers the Tories would give to Scotland if it votes NO.
As for Michael Moore, I think as a politician, his behaviour is shameful. He literally dances to the Tories tune. They want a distraction, he's their man. They want to annoy Scots, he's their man. It seems Michael Moore has forgotten he is charged as Secretary of State for Scotland, to represent Scotland's views to Westminster, not the other way around.
This rubbish about dates is just that, most in Westminster are happy with 2014, and realise it can't be changed. This is merely a smokescreen to take control of the debate, and move it away from David Cameron, and his promise of 'Jam tomorrow'.
As such it isn't even worth wasting any time on at all.
Meanwhile, yesterday in the house of commons, David Cameron ducked answering a direct question from Angus MacNeil on what extra powers he envisaged for the Scottish parliament. They are clearly rattled.
The Tory Government are under pressure following David Cameron stating that he would consider more powers for the Scottish parliament if Scots vote NO. This nonsense by Moore over the date is just a smokescreen, to try to shift attention away from those extra powers, and the questions Cameron won't (can't) answer.
Keep asking the questions, and raising the issue of what more powers the Tories would give to Scotland if it votes NO.
As for Michael Moore, I think as a politician, his behaviour is shameful. He literally dances to the Tories tune. They want a distraction, he's their man. They want to annoy Scots, he's their man. It seems Michael Moore has forgotten he is charged as Secretary of State for Scotland, to represent Scotland's views to Westminster, not the other way around.
This rubbish about dates is just that, most in Westminster are happy with 2014, and realise it can't be changed. This is merely a smokescreen to take control of the debate, and move it away from David Cameron, and his promise of 'Jam tomorrow'.
As such it isn't even worth wasting any time on at all.
Meanwhile, yesterday in the house of commons, David Cameron ducked answering a direct question from Angus MacNeil on what extra powers he envisaged for the Scottish parliament. They are clearly rattled.
#
2012-02-23 09:00
Patience folks, it is not only Labour who are going to have a bad May 2012.
The Lib Dems are staring at a second wipe-out, this time at council level.
For GE intention, they are polling 4-6% at best. Mr Moore is an excellent independence/SNP recruiting agent.
The council elections are very important; I have little doubt the SNP will make massive gains based on polls. This will considerably up the ante.
I do hope people use their additional votes (STV system) for the greens, SSP etc; something I feel will happen.
The Lib Dems are staring at a second wipe-out, this time at council level.
For GE intention, they are polling 4-6% at best. Mr Moore is an excellent independence/SNP recruiting agent.
The council elections are very important; I have little doubt the SNP will make massive gains based on polls. This will considerably up the ante.
I do hope people use their additional votes (STV system) for the greens, SSP etc; something I feel will happen.
#
2012-02-23 12:12
I wonder about tactics on this. I used my additional votes for independent councillors last time round, but I'm unsure of the most effective course of action. STV is quite arcane. Might it not be better just to vote for the SNP candidate(s), and leave it at that?
#
2012-02-23 13:56
A simple explanation of STV here:
www.electoral-reform.org.uk/.../
It's like AV and is a form of instant run-off voting.
Basically, if you vote:
1. SNP
2. Green
3. SSP
Then "Each voter gets one vote, which can transfer from their first-preference to their second-preference, so if your preferred candidate has no chance of being elected or has enough votes already, your vote is transferred to another candidate in accordance with your instructions."
So if the SNP candidate is already elected or has no chance, then your vote helps the Green candidate and so on.
No harm in voting Green first as if they don't get enough, your second vote will help the e.g. SNP candidate.
It is a form of PR, so really we want independence parties to make up the majority.
It always makes sense to use up all your choices (1, 2, 3, 4) for available 'independence' candidates.
Obviously, you don't want to put any unionist candidates as a choice, unless of course you are pro-union!
www.electoral-reform.org.uk/.../
It's like AV and is a form of instant run-off voting.
Basically, if you vote:
1. SNP
2. Green
3. SSP
Then "Each voter gets one vote, which can transfer from their first-preference to their second-preference, so if your preferred candidate has no chance of being elected or has enough votes already, your vote is transferred to another candidate in accordance with your instructions."
So if the SNP candidate is already elected or has no chance, then your vote helps the Green candidate and so on.
No harm in voting Green first as if they don't get enough, your second vote will help the e.g. SNP candidate.
It is a form of PR, so really we want independence parties to make up the majority.
It always makes sense to use up all your choices (1, 2, 3, 4) for available 'independence' candidates.
Obviously, you don't want to put any unionist candidates as a choice, unless of course you are pro-union!
#
2012-02-23 20:00
But remember if there are 2 or 3 SNP candidates in a ward then it's 1 SNP, 2 SNP, 3 SNP before voting for any other party that is not Unionist
#
2012-02-23 15:52
69, I vote for SNP candidates, followed by anyone else I respect, and leave it at that.
#
2012-02-23 09:28
A good comment there prideoftheclyde .
Why the hurry for such a hugely important referendum, whether nationalist of unionist, it needs to be debated properly.
There's never any hurry to push any other elections.
Why the hurry for such a hugely important referendum, whether nationalist of unionist, it needs to be debated properly.
There's never any hurry to push any other elections.
#
2012-02-23 10:12
I agree. I find that the more time you have to actually talk about the issues the more positive undecideds are to independence. However, I don't think that is the whole reason for the coaltion wanting a referendum before the end of 2013. I think it may have more to do with the Welfare Reform Bill coming into effect around that time. From the reports of what is going to be included in the bill I think the anti-westminster government protests we may see will make the cuts protests and tuition fees protests look like a love-in. The independence referendum under the Scottish Government's plans could see it taking place at the depths of the UK Government's popularity.
#
2012-02-23 20:37
Quoting Saltire Groppenslosh:
-----------------------------------
LOL. #:)
Forever is a long time. Prof Vanhelsing had a better way but it involved
wooden stake
clove of garlic and
a sharp saw.
Even that wont stop the Labour coming back in some guise they are as perennial as the weed!
In the autumn of 2014 we'll go to the polling station and silence them forever.
-----------------------------------
LOL. #:)
Forever is a long time. Prof Vanhelsing had a better way but it involved
wooden stake
clove of garlic and
a sharp saw.
Even that wont stop the Labour coming back in some guise they are as perennial as the weed!
#
2012-02-23 09:53
I reckon it is nothing to do with 1314 ect, they just want it held before the summer of 2014. Scotland hosting the commonwealth games will provide a swell in national pride, coupled together with (rather more hopeful than probable) Scotland competing in Brazil in the 2014 World Cup adding to that swell and of course the usual bile we have to listen to/watch as England play in the World Cup will again only add to the cause.
As much as I would like this to be done and dusted in our favour as soon as possible ( I cannot concentrate on much else, and another two and a half years of this seems almost impossible to contemplate) Autumn 2014 has to remain the date, AS knows this and will stick by it.
As much as I would like this to be done and dusted in our favour as soon as possible ( I cannot concentrate on much else, and another two and a half years of this seems almost impossible to contemplate) Autumn 2014 has to remain the date, AS knows this and will stick by it.
#
2012-02-23 10:42
I seem to be posting this video regularly (well, every couple of months anyway). Once again, lets remind ourselves of what Moore said on BBC Breakfast last year after the historic SNP win.
'The UK government will not block a Scottish referendum" - like tuition fees, that's one almighty U-turn performed by Moore and Wastemonster
BBC video here:
bbc.co.uk/.../...
BBC news article here:
bbc.co.uk/.../...
'The UK government will not block a Scottish referendum" - like tuition fees, that's one almighty U-turn performed by Moore and Wastemonster
BBC video here:
bbc.co.uk/.../...
BBC news article here:
bbc.co.uk/.../...
#
2012-02-23 13:43
Personaly I never get tired of posting that exact same video everytime Mr. Moore changes his mind which is almost as often as he opens his mouth.
#
2012-02-23 15:55
Quoting tartanfever:
It's not really a u-turn, though. They don't want to block it. They want to run it.
'The UK government will not block a Scottish referendum" - like tuition fees, that's one almighty U-turn performed by Moore and Wastemonster
It's not really a u-turn, though. They don't want to block it. They want to run it.
#
2012-02-23 11:20
The Moore the merrier .. as far as Wee Eck is concerned ... I wonder how many more folk signed up to the SNP after yesterday's farce in Westminster.
Moore make's shooting fish in a barrel look dificult..
Moore make's shooting fish in a barrel look dificult..
#
2012-02-23 13:25
Looks like I'm going to be the only one out of step here.
The UK government should have no say in a referendum that is run by the Scottish parliament - in the timing, the wording of the question, who will be entitled to vote or anything else. I don't know why the Scottish Government didn't say that right at the beginning - they should not be negotiating anything to do with the referendum.
However, I think the referendum should be held in the Spring of 2014 (I would prefer next week, but you have to be reasonable).
1) It's 6 months more of my life that Scotland will be independent.
2) Spring is the vital time of year - new growth, energy, opportunity.
3) An Autumn date holds the commonwealth games as a hostage to fortune. It will not be hard for anybody looking for negative stories to find them. After a successful referendum in the Spring the commonwealth games could become a relaxed celebration of Scotland's new status.
Why are the unionists pressing for Autumn 2013 when they know that by doing so it will not happen? Could it be that in fact, for all the bluster, they prefer the latest possible referendum in the hope that the worst of the present economic situation will have passed and are trying to box the SNP in to the later date.
I would of course , after all the above, prefer Spring 2013 and I'm hoping that the SNP have prepared for all sorts of eventualities. Things seem to be going our way just now but nobody knows what will happen in the future - next year is less certain than next week and two and a half years away is less certain still. I do not believe in crystal balls.
The UK government should have no say in a referendum that is run by the Scottish parliament - in the timing, the wording of the question, who will be entitled to vote or anything else. I don't know why the Scottish Government didn't say that right at the beginning - they should not be negotiating anything to do with the referendum.
However, I think the referendum should be held in the Spring of 2014 (I would prefer next week, but you have to be reasonable).
1) It's 6 months more of my life that Scotland will be independent.
2) Spring is the vital time of year - new growth, energy, opportunity.
3) An Autumn date holds the commonwealth games as a hostage to fortune. It will not be hard for anybody looking for negative stories to find them. After a successful referendum in the Spring the commonwealth games could become a relaxed celebration of Scotland's new status.
Why are the unionists pressing for Autumn 2013 when they know that by doing so it will not happen? Could it be that in fact, for all the bluster, they prefer the latest possible referendum in the hope that the worst of the present economic situation will have passed and are trying to box the SNP in to the later date.
I would of course , after all the above, prefer Spring 2013 and I'm hoping that the SNP have prepared for all sorts of eventualities. Things seem to be going our way just now but nobody knows what will happen in the future - next year is less certain than next week and two and a half years away is less certain still. I do not believe in crystal balls.
#
2012-02-23 13:33
I meant to add that, in my submission to the Scottish Governments consultation, I will be recommending the 2014 Spring referendum and, if enough others do the same, it would give them a good reason to go for that, modestly, earlier date.
#
2012-02-23 13:41
Of course, to get up the unionists noses, Spring is when the battle of Bannockburn took place in 1314 was it not? :D
Something that would not be missed by supporters of Independence! I am quite sure quite a number of "sway" voters would be taken up with that idea as well.
Something that would not be missed by supporters of Independence! I am quite sure quite a number of "sway" voters would be taken up with that idea as well.
#
2012-02-23 15:44
Hi 1320
In spite of my 1314 Jekyll to my reality Hyde, I couldn't care less about the anniversary (except, of course, that we stuffed them, yeah!)
I type very slowly and 1314 is short. I Regret it now, I"m not interested in looking backwards except for the benefit of knowledge. Maybe I should change by cyber deed poll to 3001 (2001 now being behind the times).
In spite of my 1314 Jekyll to my reality Hyde, I couldn't care less about the anniversary (except, of course, that we stuffed them, yeah!)
I type very slowly and 1314 is short. I Regret it now, I"m not interested in looking backwards except for the benefit of knowledge. Maybe I should change by cyber deed poll to 3001 (2001 now being behind the times).
#
2012-02-23 15:50
I would agree that Spring of 2014 would be fine. In the spirit of compromise AS could suggest it to Moore/Cameron as being midway between Autumn 2013 and Autumn 2014.
Maybe more important than the anniversary of Bannockburn, it would be before the World Cup was played, so no fall out from dissapointment over that contest's result.
Maybe more important than the anniversary of Bannockburn, it would be before the World Cup was played, so no fall out from dissapointment over that contest's result.
#
2012-02-23 15:54
The thing is 1314, Bannockburn is a very famous battle, probably the most famous battle in Scotland where Scottish "troops" beat the "auld enemy".
I accept that it is just an anniversary and the battle is long gone,"dead and buried" so to speak. (sorry about the pun!) However, there are a lot of people out there who know a bit about Bannockburn, but mostly the end result. As we come closer to the referendum, I believe, we should be using every tool at our disposal. If that means hyping up the battle of 1314 then so be it. At the end of the day the unionists have got absolutely nothing to counter with.
This referendum is going to end up in an almighty blood bath. We have to utilise everything!
I have to admit that there is just a wee bit of me that thinks that wee Eck has picked 2014 not just for the procedural reasons but also, I suspect, because he can use the anniversary as an added piece of artillery in his armoury.
I accept that it is just an anniversary and the battle is long gone,"dead and buried" so to speak. (sorry about the pun!) However, there are a lot of people out there who know a bit about Bannockburn, but mostly the end result. As we come closer to the referendum, I believe, we should be using every tool at our disposal. If that means hyping up the battle of 1314 then so be it. At the end of the day the unionists have got absolutely nothing to counter with.
This referendum is going to end up in an almighty blood bath. We have to utilise everything!
I have to admit that there is just a wee bit of me that thinks that wee Eck has picked 2014 not just for the procedural reasons but also, I suspect, because he can use the anniversary as an added piece of artillery in his armoury.
#
2012-02-23 16:08
Bannockburn was fought on Midsummer's Day. Not exactly Springtime!
The problem with Spring 2014 is its proximity to the European Parliament elections. One of the reasons given by the SNP for the Autumn date was the Gould Report recommendation that elections not be held too close together.
The problem with Spring 2014 is its proximity to the European Parliament elections. One of the reasons given by the SNP for the Autumn date was the Gould Report recommendation that elections not be held too close together.
#
2012-02-23 16:23
Hell, Spring time ....Summertime.
What's a season between friends. :D
Or should that be "what's a season between enemies?" :D
The truth is Holebender, as has been pointed out elsewhere, the Scottish government have a schedule that they will stick to. So it will not happen any earlier, I think, than September 2014 at the earliest. I believe I have read others suggest October.
What's a season between friends. :D
Or should that be "what's a season between enemies?" :D
The truth is Holebender, as has been pointed out elsewhere, the Scottish government have a schedule that they will stick to. So it will not happen any earlier, I think, than September 2014 at the earliest. I believe I have read others suggest October.
#
2012-02-23 18:01
Holebender
EU elections are always in June so proximity wise I see no difference between Autumn or Spring.
EU elections are always in June so proximity wise I see no difference between Autumn or Spring.
#
2012-02-24 02:05
Thanks, Holebender. I couldn't believe even a Scot (who tend to know shockingly little about their own history) didn't know that the usual date given for the battle is 24 June, 1314. In fact, the fighting actually began on 23 June although most of the battle took place the following day.
#
2012-02-23 21:45
Arbroath
No, Bannockburn was at mid-summer, i.e. late June 1314. I wouldn't think linking the referendum to Bannockburn would be a very good idea, given the opportunity for 'shortbread and Brigadoon' spin that would give the BBC and the MSM. That said, the outcome of the referendum will certainly be every bit as important as the outcome of Bannockburn. It really is a life or death struggle for our nation.
No, Bannockburn was at mid-summer, i.e. late June 1314. I wouldn't think linking the referendum to Bannockburn would be a very good idea, given the opportunity for 'shortbread and Brigadoon' spin that would give the BBC and the MSM. That said, the outcome of the referendum will certainly be every bit as important as the outcome of Bannockburn. It really is a life or death struggle for our nation.
#
2012-02-23 20:56
There are 2 issues to consider.
Legal advice is only that, advice. There is no certainty an advisory referendum would not be struck down by the courts, however unpalatable that is for us on this site. Whilst there may come a point the Scottish Government have to walk away from section 10 negotiations it would be better to have agreement and therefore certainty, if this meant acceptable compromises.
We must always remember the people must be taken with this arguement. Intransigence will never look good and those found guilty by public opinion will face an uphill battle.
Legal advice is only that, advice. There is no certainty an advisory referendum would not be struck down by the courts, however unpalatable that is for us on this site. Whilst there may come a point the Scottish Government have to walk away from section 10 negotiations it would be better to have agreement and therefore certainty, if this meant acceptable compromises.
We must always remember the people must be taken with this arguement. Intransigence will never look good and those found guilty by public opinion will face an uphill battle.
#
2012-02-23 13:42
The orchestrated efforts of Unioist Politicians and their fellow dependents in the media are nicely focussed on their imaginary vision of 'poor wee Scotland'.
It is noticable that none - but none - of them even hint, far less address, the desparate predicament Rump U.K. will find themselves in.
It is unlikely that it will be self sufficient in food, power or water.
Their credit rating may well be banana republic status.
Cherished, but expensive interests, previously funded by UK tax, will have to be funded by the Rump or jettisoned.
Immediately the Rump will need a Parliament and means of creating/installing a Legislator.
International co-operators will likely, by this stage, have had time to appraise and adjust if necessary, their positions relative to a new European trading order minus the former aspirant to 'World Power Status'.
Auld claes and porage (with sugar) beckons.
Meantime an energetic Scotland will alter this reduced dynamism further as soon as we get fed up with their childish Unionist behaviour.
I'm sure the Rump must realise their time is rapidly running out.
It is noticable that none - but none - of them even hint, far less address, the desparate predicament Rump U.K. will find themselves in.
It is unlikely that it will be self sufficient in food, power or water.
Their credit rating may well be banana republic status.
Cherished, but expensive interests, previously funded by UK tax, will have to be funded by the Rump or jettisoned.
Immediately the Rump will need a Parliament and means of creating/installing a Legislator.
International co-operators will likely, by this stage, have had time to appraise and adjust if necessary, their positions relative to a new European trading order minus the former aspirant to 'World Power Status'.
Auld claes and porage (with sugar) beckons.
Meantime an energetic Scotland will alter this reduced dynamism further as soon as we get fed up with their childish Unionist behaviour.
I'm sure the Rump must realise their time is rapidly running out.
#
2012-02-23 13:49
We're having a referendum in 2014.Dont know whats so difficultt for Moore to grasp.
#
2012-02-23 15:31
Canada can learn from Scotlands referendum
Well done to MJM of this parish for his succinct comments
montrealgazette.com/.../...
Well done to MJM of this parish for his succinct comments
montrealgazette.com/.../...
#
2012-02-23 16:43
I also had a pop at an international journalist writing in the Canuk Globe and something because he was really peddling a cart full of keech. Basically the Canuk concern is the whole Quebec issue will raise its ugly head if Scotland says yes to going it alone.
theglobeandmail.com/.../...
theglobeandmail.com/.../...
#
2012-02-23 16:27
It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that we are "Too wee, Too poor and Too Stupid" would it? :D
#
2012-02-23 18:33
The Unionists want a referendum and they want it now.
They could have had a referendum during the lifetime of the last parliament but refused to countenance such a thing. Yet now they want it PDQ.
If the SNP had won the election in May with an increased number of seats but not enough to have an overall majority does anyone believe the Unionist parties would have allowed a vote for a referendum to pass in Holyrood?
No of course not.
That being the case then they should have no say in when the referendum is held.
[If you really want to get upset then read Alan Cochrane's article in today's Daily Telegraph which basically says Cameron and Moore are playing a blinder and have AS on the ropes.]
They could have had a referendum during the lifetime of the last parliament but refused to countenance such a thing. Yet now they want it PDQ.
If the SNP had won the election in May with an increased number of seats but not enough to have an overall majority does anyone believe the Unionist parties would have allowed a vote for a referendum to pass in Holyrood?
No of course not.
That being the case then they should have no say in when the referendum is held.
[If you really want to get upset then read Alan Cochrane's article in today's Daily Telegraph which basically says Cameron and Moore are playing a blinder and have AS on the ropes.]
#
2012-02-23 20:59
I only read Mr Cochrane for a laugh now. He is writing for his own audience and it should be taken in that context. When was the last complimentary article about Mr Salmond, the SNP or indeed the Scottish Government?
Can any democratically elected government with still overwhelming popularity in opinion polls really be as bad as Mr Cochrane continually puts in print?
Can any democratically elected government with still overwhelming popularity in opinion polls really be as bad as Mr Cochrane continually puts in print?
#
2012-02-23 21:18
As a post script to my last comment, I believe Alan Cochrane wanted Labour to win in May 2011, not because he thought they were best for Scotland, but if the Scottish Parliament could be seen to be failing, there could be an increase in support for abolition and a return to direct (and rightful in his opinion) Westminster rule.
The same case can be made about the Labour Party hierarchy given the commitment of senior Scottish figures to Holyrood.
The same case can be made about the Labour Party hierarchy given the commitment of senior Scottish figures to Holyrood.
#
2012-02-23 22:12
I think I probably agree with what you say. it was only by chance that I saw Mr Cochrane's article today. I stopped reading him some time ago.
#
2012-02-23 22:21
Hi all Mr Gill is not a fan.
His daily diet of anti SG ranting is music to my ears. If he ain't happy all is right with the world.
What a sour ploom!
---------------------------------------
Thursday February 23,2012
By Kerry Gill, Scottish Political Editor
The starting blocks were laid yesterday for an independence referendum to be held in autumn 2013, provoking SNP anger.
Scottish Secretary Michael Moore seized
initiative for the unionist campaign
---------------------------------------
express.co.uk/.../...
His daily diet of anti SG ranting is music to my ears. If he ain't happy all is right with the world.
What a sour ploom!
---------------------------------------
Thursday February 23,2012
By Kerry Gill, Scottish Political Editor
The starting blocks were laid yesterday for an independence referendum to be held in autumn 2013, provoking SNP anger.
Scottish Secretary Michael Moore seized
initiative for the unionist campaign
---------------------------------------
express.co.uk/.../...
#
2012-02-23 23:12
Quote:
Don't you just love it when the unionist media start writing their fairy stories!
Scottish Secretary Michael Moore seized initiative for the unionist campaign
Don't you just love it when the unionist media start writing their fairy stories!
#
2012-02-25 21:09
Whenever it happens, nothing says it better than the simplest of posters.
www.facebook.com/.../
There 16 images in the montage.
Enjoy!
www.facebook.com/.../
There 16 images in the montage.
Enjoy!
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